(edited by ItWasntMe.7102)
medium armor being ostracized namely rangers
This link will give you the reasons why there’s so much hatred towards rangers in PVE.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-sad-truth-about-Rangers
Currently the meta in PVE is about stacking in corners to LoS mobs in melee range while wearing full berserker gear. This is just the opposite of what the vast majority of the rangers enjoy to do. Instead they like to stay at max range doing poor damage and sitting comfortably on their healing springs while not giving any buffs to their team mates nor reciving any from them. Also the pet AI feels a bit slow and can mess up with some bosses like jade maw and if your pet dies you lose a chunk of your damage.
However, rangers can be a great adition to any party if they go melee and bring spotter and frost spirit. This is harder to do with a ranger because sword animations root you and make you bounce all over the place but it can be mastered nontheless. The devs have said that sword is working as intended.
Hope I helped you.
(edited by anabasis.7346)
This link will give you the reasons why there’s so much hatred towars rangers in PVE.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-sad-truth-about-RangersCurrently the meta in PVE is about stacking in corners to LoS mobs in melee range while wearing full berserker gear. This is just the opposite of what the vast majority of the rangers enjoy to do. Instead they like to stay at max range doing poor damage and sitting comfortably on their healing springs while not giving any buffs to their team mates nor reciving any from them. Also the pet AI feels a bit slow and can mess up with some bosses like jade maw and if your pet dies you lose a chunk of your damage.
However, rangers can be a great adition to any party if they go melee and bring spotter and frost spirit. This is harder to do with a ranger because sword animations root you and make you bounce all over the place but it can be mastered nontheless. The devs have said that sword is working as intended.
Hope I helped you.
I see so it is more about the convenience of the squad with zero regard to the fact many of us rangers come prepared to those runs with our aoe traps etc. They feel their shortcut can only be preserved by prejudging medium armor as a whole? Our bows still work in melee range (if a player chooses not to equip a melee weap) in those situations & our aoe pets or heal/protection pets make up for what dmg we don’t directly contribute~ so this really doesn’t seem like a well thought out reason for so many to adapt to totally ostracise medium armor players. Thank you so much for reply, if it is a simple case of community ignorance & bandwagon jumping then rangers & other medium armors can wait the lil popularity trend out. Much easier than waiting for devs to let us know if others are accurate assesing us as a whole "useless’.
Currently the meta in PVE is about stacking in corners to LoS mobs in melee range while wearing full berserker gear. This is just the opposite of what the vast majority of the rangers enjoy to do. Instead they like to stay at max range doing poor damage and sitting comfortably on their healing springs while not giving any buffs to their team mates nor reciving any from them.
This is another problem I have with the game, coming from GW1 where spirits had a humungous range and a buff specifically applied on a party member could be maintained regardless of distance. The buff ranges in GW2 are way too small. That’s what creates the stacking in melee meta. Open them up to 900-1500 range and you’ll see much more variability in play. Stacking would still be advantageous for combos, but it wouldn’t be a requirement like it is now.
I don’t understand why ppl would choose to not have rangers in their pt, to me they seem pretty viable. Add extra def/attack from spirits which in case most of u don’t realize have a buff range of 1,200. Search & Rescue to pick up downed players in case of emergencies. Heal spirit for bosses, healing spring to remove conditions and heal players. And then a nice selection of pet abilities that can be applied as well such as condition removal, healing, buffs, on top of all that extra healing abilities in non controllable pet skills. PLUS… xD…. the nice vulnerability debuff that can be constantly added to bosses/mobs from lb
I don’t understand why ppl would choose to not have rangers in their pt, to me they seem pretty viable. Add extra def/attack from spirits which in case most of u don’t realize have a buff range of 1,200. Search & Rescue to pick up downed players in case of emergencies. Heal spirit for bosses, healing spring to remove conditions and heal players. And then a nice selection of pet abilities that can be applied as well such as condition removal, healing, buffs, on top of all that extra healing abilities in non controllable pet skills. PLUS… xD…. the nice vulnerability debuff that can be constantly added to bosses/mobs from lb
Nowhere in that paragraph did you talk about the OMG ITS SO EPIC! ITS OVER 9000! damage that Rangers can do. Groups only care about Zerkers and dealing as much damage in as short of time as possible.
Healing Power, Toughness, and Vitality are all not as effective on a point for point tradeoff as Power, Precision, or Condition Damage is. Rangers also recieve only half the damage increase from Power as other classes would because of the pet, so those groups do have a point, Zerker’s rule! (as long as they aren’t rangers!)
(…and Not that I agree with that, I use Magi gear almost exclusively now, regardless of what other people say, since some pets with 25 stacks of might and the appropriate traits in Skirmishing and Beastmastery can deal alot more damage, and survive longer than pretty much anything else)
This link will give you the reasons why there’s so much hatred towards rangers in PVE.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-sad-truth-about-RangersCurrently the meta in PVE is about stacking in corners to LoS mobs in melee range while wearing full berserker gear. This is just the opposite of what the vast majority of the rangers enjoy to do. Instead they like to stay at max range doing poor damage and sitting comfortably on their healing springs while not giving any buffs to their team mates nor reciving any from them. Also the pet AI feels a bit slow and can mess up with some bosses like jade maw and if your pet dies you lose a chunk of your damage.
However, rangers can be a great adition to any party if they go melee and bring spotter and frost spirit. This is harder to do with a ranger because sword animations root you and make you bounce all over the place but it can be mastered nontheless. The devs have said that sword is working as intended.
Hope I helped you.
While I like both Frost Spirit and Spotter, it is worth to be mentioned that Rangers can do other great things besides these two abilities and still be effective. I wouldn’t have any respect for someone who would kick a Ranger for not having both or either of them, because they MUST match the meta, which didn’t even include Rangers in the past-such intolerance allows for very little build variety for Rangers when venturing into Dungeons.
That said, I love meleeing on my Ranger and would encourage bow lovers to at least try and practice either Greatsword or sword + torch/warhorn/dagger/whathaveyou, for you can actually do great and not die at all with such setups, despite being at close range (and especially for Dungeons in which people stack, which are most in the current game design.) I always use a bow and my sword for Dungeons personally, fun playstyle switching between them as needed.
Of course, it’s up to the player and what he/she prefers, but there’s nothing wrong with expanding one’s horizons and trying a melee set.
Also, perhaps I don’t play enough but I don’t see that the vast majority of players do these things people complain about. And even if it was true, no one gives you the right to judge a Ranger without knowing his/her playstyle, based on biased preconceptions about how “most” Rangers choose to play the game.
Lastly, I’d recommend to group up with friendly people, and avoid speed runs to minimize encounters with digital bigots and/or jerks who would discriminate against you without knowing what you and your character can do for the group.
The thing is as much as it is a problem engineered by Rangers themselves when have you ever heard of people asking for Engies or Thieves either? Even necros have a hard time despite videos of people spiking for a ton of damage on axe 2.
The problem is no matter how well you play a Ranger, you won’t be as powerful or necessarily as useful as a Heavy or Mesmer and the people who do speed runs know it and won’t waste their time going slower than possible because that’s what they are all about wither because they have a compulsion to min/max as hard as possible or just don’t have much time to game and want to use it most efficiently.
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The thing is as much as it is a problem engineered by Rangers themselves when have you ever heard of people asking for Engies or Thieves either? Even necros have a hard time despite videos of people spiking for a ton of damage on axe 2.
The problem is no matter how well you play a Ranger, you won’t be as powerful or necessarily as useful as a Heavy or Mesmer and the people who do speed runs know it and won’t waste their time going slower than possible because that’s what they are all about wither because they have a compulsion to min/max as hard as possible or just don’t have much time to game and want to use it most efficiently.
This is true, it’s mostly a community problem, more than Rangers (or the other “ostracized” Professions) being broken. That’s why I honestly stay clear of that particular speedrun community, even when I play Warrior or Guardian. But Rangers are actually awesome for PvE Dungeons in many ways, and there are things they provide no one else does (as the opposite is usually claimed.)
Nowhere in that paragraph did you talk about the OMG ITS SO EPIC! ITS OVER 9000! damage that Rangers can do. Groups only care about Zerkers and dealing as much damage in as short of time as possible.
Healing Power, Toughness, and Vitality are all not as effective on a point for point tradeoff as Power, Precision, or Condition Damage is. Rangers also recieve only half the damage increase from Power as other classes would because of the pet, so those groups do have a point, Zerker’s rule! (as long as they aren’t rangers!)
(…and Not that I agree with that, I use Magi gear almost exclusively now, regardless of what other people say, since some pets with 25 stacks of might and the appropriate traits in Skirmishing and Beastmastery can deal alot more damage, and survive longer than pretty much anything else)
What you say is true, but also other party members that go down & are struggling to get back up forcing the rest of their squad to stop & rez aren’t contributing consistent nonstop dmg & actually bring their totals down. So really what is the difference of having a medium armor class that does steady consistant dmg or a party of “spurt down spurt”? I am not talking of “elite organised parties” because truth is they are really few in comparison to average parties that prereq as if they are elite, yet are barely avg players themselves.
It’s quite forward. As soon as content becomes more difficult the heavy classes have the tools to deal with it and the medium armor classes don’t. Medium classes can deal with it if they dodge and evade perfectly but odds on they won’t. Rangers needs pets alive to get full value from traits and utilities and as soon as the content is difficult the pet is either not pulling it’s weight or not alive. Utilities are often weak and do not form versatile builds. Missile defense is awful. The class role as a ranged damage dealer is not fully delivered but there isn’t enough utility and trait support for melee either (compare rangers to warriors).
It’s quite forward. As soon as content becomes more difficult the heavy classes have the tools to deal with it and the medium armor classes don’t. Medium classes can deal with it if they dodge and evade perfectly but odds on they won’t. Rangers needs pets alive to get full value from traits and utilities and as soon as the content is difficult the pet is either not pulling it’s weight or not alive. Utilities are often weak and do not form versatile builds. Missile defense is awful. The class role as a ranged damage dealer is not fully delivered but there isn’t enough utility and trait support for melee either (compare rangers to warriors).
Well said.
The truth is, for me, rangers in this game feel more like very low quality bargain basement knock off of the chanters from AION mixed with the an even lower quality knock off of venomancers from PWI & very very very small amount of archer/ranger.
An entoruage of spirits & uncontrollable dead pets cluttering the screen & nothing in the game that requires max range dmg to kill faster. There simply are not enough skill slots available to make rangers work well enough to compete with classes that the game content favours.
I love my bows & I love my traps yet in this game I am penalised for using them or I must invest double the time of hvy/light players to participate in daily farming content as a ranger.
So many forced traits spots wasted including pets that don’t dodge agony or aoes like their masters, they just stand there in any circle they can find, or pop out of passive hiding landing smack kitten first in your face if you take a lil fall dmg in a JP .
I have met only a handful of truly impressive rangers in GW2 & even those moments were extremely situational. Average playing rangers like myself eventually hit a fork in the road to reroll another class or find a game that rangers are rangers & not some hodge podge of mediocracy that are forced to give up more time & resources than hvy/light classes because the content doesn’t include them in practical ways. Well, I have a warrior, a mes, & a guard, but I am at heart a ranger so they are currently high level storage units. Give it a few more months & try acouple of sgst mentioned here & see if the relationship grows healthier or if this game simply is not feasible for rangers like me to play in. =)
A High level storage unit is better than a low level storage unit….I guess…
What you say is true, but also other party members that go down & are struggling to get back up forcing the rest of their squad to stop & rez aren’t contributing consistent nonstop dmg & actually bring their totals down. So really what is the difference of having a medium armor class that does steady consistant dmg or a party of “spurt down spurt”? I am not talking of “elite organised parties” because truth is they are really few in comparison to average parties that prereq as if they are elite, yet are barely avg players themselves.
What you say is also true, and I have made an attempt or two to make that point on the forums before. But, the 0.05% of the players base that are Record Dungeon Speed Runners are louder than everyone else is, so, you tend to hear them talk about how awesome 5 Zerkers are (none of which are Rangers normally), referring to youtube videos. But, how many dozens, if not hundreds, of attempts were made at making that flawless video? And can they repeat the results, using the same immaculate dodging and skill timing that they had to do on the last run?…Not likely. (thats .05% of the .05% that can do even that) Those types of groups aren’t as awesome as they would have you think.
This is why you guys should do what I do with LFG…start your own and put a message that you’ll take anybody who can get it done. Here’s what I normally do, as an example.
LFG Path 1. I don’t care what your class is, as long as you can get the job done.
Most players don’t really care who they group with, as long as they can get the run over and done with. Make your own groups to help this, you’ll be surprised how fast they fill up.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
More than once I’ve had a party ask me to die so they can res. Sure, I can solo that boss, but they want a round 2 with it.
Not just you Yamagawa, I’ve had it happen on my Mesmer. Usually because “it’s taking too long”.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
Then ’don’t kitten die’ if you want to take part in the fight.
Not like its hard to walk out of aoe, kite melee mobs, or dodge ranged attacks.
Healing spring nerf won’t help our cause… With PuG’s heck and even guild groups I still surprise folks with healing spring, which I will run up and cast on the melee guys then back off to range a target. I’ve often heard comments about perfect timing on that healing spring to the Ele when it was in fact my spring they were complimenting, and some ele have been kind enough to point that out.
I never felt useless in dungeons, there was a time when I did in certain fractal fights that just flat out killed a pet on aggressive.
I do believe it is perception and not reality that folks are down on the Ranger in dungeon runs.
Narg, Ranger JQ
Heavy Halo, Warrior JQ
Heavy Halo, Warrior JQ
Not just you Yamagawa, I’ve had it happen on my Mesmer. Usually because “it’s taking too long”.
And that’s what almost makes Zerker builds almost a necessity in Guild Wars 2. Most of the players are too freakin impatient, and would rather die and reset eleventy billion times than get it done right the first time.
…and also I’ve had that happen to me before too in several of the living story dungeons, having people ask me to res them or die to reset. Soloing the Clockheart was one of the most epic fights I ever had in this game, and I had to dodge electric fields, pull the boss around the map, while pulling a holo enemy to him, all with just me, my longbow, and my trusty bear (yeah, it was a Cleric Bearbow Build!…So?!?).
My mesmer build is the only zerker build I have Chrispy, and I was taking the boss down pretty fast solo. But no, they kept asking me to wipe despite killing it fast. Noobs, the lot of them. As long as the boss dies is all I care about.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
My mesmer build is the only zerker build I have Chrispy, and I was taking the boss down pretty fast solo. But no, they kept asking me to wipe despite killing it fast. Noobs, the lot of them. As long as the boss dies is all I care about.
Wait, didn’t you just say that they wanted you to wipe because the fight was taking too long?
also, I’m not saying that all Zerkers are awful, just that a vast majority of them are. Many can’t time their dodges properly, and get 1-2 shot by the boss. I will admit that I can’t time my dodges perfectly, so I do not use DPS heavy gear very often, instead going for survival heavy gear (Cleric, Apothecary, Magi, etc.).
A collision of two strategies, I think is what we have. The ‘ball on the target, buff/debuff/dps it till its dead’ which works…. If you dps it faster than it DPSs you. And the ’don’t take dps you can’t out heal’ stratedgy I prefer. That may have me tank the foe for a few seconds, drop snares and kite, but one of these two strategies works on the Balth priest in Arah P4, and the other one breaks some armor (I can solo that priest, but its bloody boring)
People look at harder pending content and say ‘medium and light armor is gunna suck. They even reflect projectiles, so rangers are toast’. I look at it and say: reflect? well, i got swords too. even know how to use them on big stuff (my preferred weapon on champ karka is greatsword). perhaps this will end the idea that ‘zerker beats all’. Right now…the philosophy seems to be that if zerker can’t beat it, it’s not meant to be beat. Hence part of the stigma on Arah P4. (It was quite long with a mid-high difficulty that no straight-up zerker group would survive.)
My mesmer build is the only zerker build I have Chrispy, and I was taking the boss down pretty fast solo. But no, they kept asking me to wipe despite killing it fast. Noobs, the lot of them. As long as the boss dies is all I care about.
Wait, didn’t you just say that they wanted you to wipe because the fight was taking too long?
also, I’m not saying that all Zerkers are awful, just that a vast majority of them are. Many can’t time their dodges properly, and get 1-2 shot by the boss. I will admit that I can’t time my dodges perfectly, so I do not use DPS heavy gear very often, instead going for survival heavy gear (Cleric, Apothecary, Magi, etc.).
Yes, and they had only been dead 15 seconds for god’s sake…I killed the rest of the boss in about a minute solo. I swear…noobs.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
Does this ostracizing actually exist, or is it a myth based on kittenty players getting kicked?
Here is my experience. I do a lot of speed clear and I like high level fractals. I see a lot of competent rangers using sword or GS. Does the bowbear with 450 APs get kicked from level 50 fractals? Yes. Does the s/w ranger with 10k AP get kicked from a CoF speed clear? Never going to happen. Not one single time have I ever been kicked from a dungeon speed clear. Not ONCE.
Make your own group, preferably with friends or acquaintances that aren’t elitist jerks.
Profit.
Hey dude you are walking into a wall.
smack..Wut?…smack…smack…
smack..Wut?…smack…smack…
Make your own group, preferably with friends or acquaintances that aren’t elitist jerks.
Profit.
Did you even bother to read OP?
the trend is becoming more than a mere annoyance kitten much time is wasted standing waiting for LFG group to form as I watch 5-10 others fill n go that want ZERO rangers.
Does this ostracizing actually exist, or is it a myth based on kittenty players getting kicked?
Here is my experience. I do a lot of speed clear and I like high level fractals. I see a lot of competent rangers using sword or GS. Does the bowbear with 450 APs get kicked from level 50 fractals? Yes. Does the s/w ranger with 10k AP get kicked from a CoF speed clear? Never going to happen. Not one single time have I ever been kicked from a dungeon speed clear. Not ONCE.
Yes it sadly does really exist. I have not played this game a year yet so I only have 7200 achieves, which doesn’t even reflect FoM or any dungeon run competency or lack of in the first place. If I have 10k achieves maybe I got them from two other toons I built before ever buliding a ranger. These are not reliable sources to measure player run knowledge.
I am not being biased or malicious by pointing out something that others shamelessly say in their lfgs “NO RANGERS” is completely their demands not my “imagination”. They kick if you even try to sneak in & they have 2 guards 2 warriors or w.e. for FoM 26 for example lol c’mon it is a 26 not a 50. Forget speed runs or anything that they don’t require a “cleric/spirit MELEE” ranger for. Heaven forbid it takes them 2 minutes longer to steady DPS a run than to allow rangers to join & play the game lol
I am happy to hear you have never been kicked, but you represent the filet mignon of rangers, not the hamburger. Yes I prefer bows, because I AM A RANGER (BTW I HATE bears ^^), but I do have every other weapon available in case a run I choose or an odd squad requires a different approach.
The issue isn’t getting kicked because I failed mid run or something, the issue is they put 30 million hoops up just in order for me to join a party. Only 1-2 that don’t care about what class fills in their party compared to 15+ that say “HELL NO~ RANGERS are useless.”
(edited by ItWasntMe.7102)
It’s not the rangers fault for playing the way the longbow was designed to be used… The problem isn’t that bow rangers are playing at a distance, it’s that the design throughout the game doesn’t seem to be consistent.
They design a weapon that is supposed to be used at a range and is penalized (heavily) when playing anywhere close to mid/melee range and supposedly does less damage etc to compensate for it’s “ranged advantage.” Sounds like a logical trade-off so far, but…
There is little means for a player to keep that ranged “advantage,” create that distance consistently enough, to really say that it has an “advantage” at any range. You do low damage at a range (in comparison to melee stacking buffs, etc.) and even lower damage when at mid to melee range. The longbow just gets a double negative to it’s play style and will probably never be fixed in any beneficial manner (they would have to remove the range penalty so that it could be viable at melee for buffing… lol right).
The whole “stack and kill” tactic needs to be fixed in some manner that makes logical sense, because while “stack and kill” is a perfectly viable tactic in my opinion (I think of it as a sort of phalanx formation); the problem with it is that players use it as more of a bug exploitation than a tactic (usually standing in areas where certain boss/mob skills can’t hit because of some sort of glitch with the environment). Again, it’s perfectly fine to use the environment to ones advantage, but it’s the way this sort of tactic gets exploited that really kills game play and elevates certain classes to be more sought after (namely the ones that can deal massive burst damage with little to no movement; i.e 100 blades).
Ranger’s on the other hand are a class that is designed to be highly mobile; all the sword skills evade and roll the player around, lightning reflexes rockets the player backwards, our endurance regen skills are all oriented towards this sort of play (which they are nerfing to hell and back because we are supposedly supposed to be subpar warriors…). The pet if it were actually implemented well (which it is not) also supports this due to the ability of the player to set it to attack (or even res) something independently of the player character, thus allowing the player to potentially reposition, etc. (however the pet’s reliability is questionable at most as a mechanic; draws little aggro in higher level areas, considered a minimal threat by many players most of the time in places like wvw as they are easily avoidable and highly predictable).
The stack and kill (or rather “stack and bug”) meta just isn’t oriented towards the ranger class.
(edited by Sollith.3502)