Guild Wars 2

Copy/pasted from a different thread about general class balance. I gave my list with warriors as absolute top, rangers as bottom, everything else ranked the way I personally feel about them.

Interesting bit (possibly, or maybe I need more coffee) would be:

Issues:

Ranger: Bottom of the barrel. Pets don’t work. 51 of their 75 traits are directly tied to the pet. 8 of their 20 utility skills are directly tied to the pet. To get any one type of utility to be functional requires a 30pt investment in a traitline. One of their weapons has been broken since release, and many players have resigned themselves to viewing it as a feature, not a bug. The class needs serious attention. However, it does make an excellent bunker in 5v5 pvp. Spirit build was FotM, but is being toned down, because it’s terribly passive play, and somehow there’s a sense that one should never lose to the ranger.

Proposed fix:

Ranger: Make the pet optional. Give up already. Make it tied to beastmastery (you don’t put points in beastmastery? No pet for you.) Pet works like minions, where it’s additional damage, not part of the whole. Reduce their overall damage to the level of the utility minions on necro. Increase the weapon coefficients to increase the damage lost from pet. Make preparations the profession mechanic F1 for the next X seconds, arrows fly 50% faster. F2 Your next X attacks inflict Ys poison on your target. F3 Your next X attacks interrupt your target. F4 Your next X attacks inflict immobilize on your target. Remove current pet-centric traits outside of beastmastery and change them to effect the preparations.

When I’ve had more coffee I’ll expand on what I was thinking. In the meantime, discuss, abuse me, cry the ranger is broken or needs fixing. I’ll be sleeping or drinking coffee, and hopefully kicking my idea hamster into actually working.

Ok, first off, in response to the cheerleader. Hey there Ariette! I am one of the approx 60% of the ranger population (by post count through the last 4 months of the forums) that doesn’t want to have to spend my entire gameplay dedicated to babysitting a pet.

I know it’s possible to keep a pet alive pretty much anywhere – I’ve been playing ranger since the beta’s, believe me, I’m aware it can be done. If you’re doing that, though, you’re significantly hindering your DPS. Pet’s who are avoiding damage aren’t attacking, thus aren’t hitting, thus are removing roughly 40% of your available damage. Or you’ve built as a complete beastmaster, and bent your entire build to one goal – and it’s viable, and I even enjoy it, sometimes.

I want other options.

That said, I don’t want to take your pet away from you – I just want to change the focus of the class. My ideal would be for most of the pet traits, if not all of them, to be in the beastmastery line. (Think of the focus of virtue related traits in the Virtue line for guardian. Makes sense, almost, eh?) If you commit to high beastmastery, you should have a viable pet.

That said, let’s keep the current mechanic – just make it optional, like virtues are for guardians, or adrenaline use is for warriors (you realise that one of the most powerful builds for warriors only works though them NOT using adrenaline?).

So, let’s say that, instead of scrapping the mechanic, we have F1 be a toggle for attack/return, F2 retain it’s current function, F3 now becomes pet swap, and F4 becomes Stow Pet.

When a pet is stowed, the ranger get’s a 30% buff to weapon damage.

With that done, we’re free to go through the pet related traits that are outside of beastmastery, look at them, and either move or change them to free up some traits for the ranger themself.

Copy/pasted from another thread too…

I seriously don’t understand this… before the hp buff my pet got permadeath in less then a handfull of situations and i am accounting the Jademaw where i have no pet with oposable thumbs to pick up a crystal unfortuanetly. Nowdays it’s a none issue.
My pc is crappy to run fraps, but seriously i’ll point a freakin camera to my screen, name five situations where your pets are dying and i’ll prove how he can be kept alive.
It has to be along the lines of some rangers wanting the pet to survive with no interaction… it has to be! As in, here’s me making my dps rotation and pet is there doing what he’s suppose to do. How many of the Ranger complaining, do reposition in the battle in order to avoid the pet getting stranded?
Seriously fellas, break that mind chains! I’m a witness, i do wvw, fotm (admitetly only to lvl 17, i have a small trouble of repeating too much of something), i have dungeon master achievement, champion slayer in spvp, i know i’m not the most hardcore but… somehow it seems you’re not talking about the class i’ve been playing…
I doubt i’m anywhere in the over-talented player and yet, i simply don’t see any frustration with the pet, apart from a few situations – off the top of my head i believe a dual boss fight in HotW where there’s constant pulsating aoe damage and the already stated jademaw-pick-the-crystal one.
Now, when i mess up? Sure my pet bites the dust and that’s fine, it gives a small sense of achievement to get your companion through alive and in the other hand gives some frustration to see him down.
I remember at first being frustrated for having the pet going down too much, but what i didn’t do was to focus my attention in coming to forums asking the referee’s to change the rules of the game. It’s way more feasible to change myself.
Or are you spoiled by other MMO’s? In WoW i didn’t play anything seriously other than a Hybrid, my hunter never reached above 40ish and i get it… that pet requires zero babysitting apart from turning grawl off (aggro caused trouble to the tank) and dismissing it to jump down (some situations a pet’s pathing would aggro entire instances), and even that players messed up a lot in that game.
If this is the case Reformat yourselves! Or call me a lier crawl and lock in to your own mindset and continue writting your… er… reinvidication?
There’s guides stickied in the ranger forum, but at this point this is a L2play issue, this is more a change of attitude issue tbh.

Then some…

o much stuff to address… and i’ve been preaching to non-believers for a looong time. But i think i’ll get more bang for the buck writting something like this:
Your subjective view of this profession, along with your opinion, as much as you desperatly seem to want, does not constitute fact.
And as a side note, i sure hope the dev team don’t give in to particular whims of players around, because you know what, some people understand this class the way it is. That’s the problem isn’ it? You probably brought preconceptions of the “Ranger class” and/or “The Pet Class” from other games and that is inhibiting you from savouring this profession the way it is.
I just feel for players like Setun or Valentin, this thread is not one you guys should be posting, those gathered around here follow the premise of Misery Loves Company, they come here to simply beach and moan out of their own frustrations. I need to read from you guys in constructive threads, not in one already infected with the whinnies.
As an afterthought: OK! I admit, after gathering all the data, testimonials and court hearings we have sufficient information that the Ranger class utterly… sucks. What are YOU going to do about it? Adapt, overcome and triunf or keep writting how much Anet hates their own creation and how there’s an ultimate goal of them bringing misery to players and make them suffer, raise billboards and huge rants to force them to stop this tyrany!?
You’ve seen people defending the Ranger, you’ve seen videos, guides and inputs from players who do enjoy the class and get a sense of satisfaction playing it. Can you not break the chains of your own mind?

The rest of his complaints are pretty decent. Wouldn’t you like more ranger builds to be viable? I would.

Ariete, how do you WvW? And in what situations? If all you do is roam and duel it’s very likely you wouldn’t run into pet issues. If you use fire-and-forget pets you’ll also likely not run into issues. But have you ever tried to zerg stomp on your ranger? Been portal bombed on? etc etc?

There’s so much random AE in WvW that even if you keep your pet idle next to you and only use it for its F2 ability it’s still dead before you got around to using it. Worse still are the times when your pet is alive but doesn’t use the F2 ability timely because it’s attacking something and it waits to fit the F2 skill in after the attack chain. Then we have the obvious problem of F2 abilities having insanely long cast times in many situations that require the pet to stand still. Can you imagine using barrage effectively if it took an additional second for the salvo to land and the AE was half the size?

Ranger issues are very real. While it’s cute to pretend it’s all a L2P issue, if that were the case this class wouldn’t have the bad reputation it has. There are enough players in this game where someone who didn’t play the Ranger class would rank it above 8th out of 8 in WvW class rankings. Feel free to start a thread on the WvW forums and ask players to post their class rankings in the current WvW meta.

Now as for the OP, I personally don’t mind the pet. Like Ariete, I do find the PvE complaints about Ranger pets to be a bit overstated. Yes they’re still one shot by one shot mechanics. Yes they’re still fragile and the health increase was a bandaid and they should get aegis on evade and dodge, etc. But overall I’ve had no real issues in PvE. That said, I’m not oblivious the problems they face in WvW and after a year I’m at the point where I’d much rather see them removed entirely instead of being stuck with a poorly implemented mechanic for another year.

So while I’d much prefer the pet mechanic to be improved, I’d be fine with your changes. I’m concerned the class wouldn’t have nearly enough utility to defend itself with only your changes as I spam the hell out of my wolf and hound. But some movement forward with this class would be a welcome chang.e

I think, we cant see any balanced fix, aslong as the pets arent effected by ranges stats.

This and sun spirit doesn’t need any proc mechanic makes spririt rangers really strong in PvP, because they dont need direct damage, and dont need precision, the only thing they need is condition damage and the rest goes into defense. And they get high direct damage burst by their pet and high condition damage with the high bruning uptime.

If the pet would share the stats of the ranger instead, there would be a) no problem with ascended gear and b) no spirit ranger build, that lets us appear strong. here some exampled:
*Bears: 120% vita, 120% thoughness, 80% power, 60% healing power
*Cats: 100% power, 100% precision, 100% crit damage, 20% vita, 20% thoughness
*spider: 100% condidmg, 100% condi duration, 80% vita,….

Just some examples, no fixed numbers.

The next thing that needs to be adressed, are the traits, as a ranger I dont get any benefit if I swap my pets (beside the lower CD) to let them stay alive. Even master’s bond is completely stupid, why no stat boost for the ranger and his pet (max 180) aslong as the pet isnt killed, but it can be swapped. This works fine with sigils, why not with pets?
I think alot of the traits we have should effect both, or give the ranger an benefit aslong as the pets are alive, i.e. 10% more damage aslong a as the pet is alive.

btw shouldnt we start a new thread to collect all those non overpowered ideas for the upcomming “collaborative development”.

Survival skills are highly functional without 30 in a line. Wouldn’t call it a weapon bug. We are the best 1 v 1 class (though warrior atm is quiet strong). Pet will never be optional.

Could use some trait consolidation/changes and could use more pet control though.

Rangers have way more issues than what was described here, but I am not completely convinced that just doing away with pets (except for beastmastery) and giving Ranger’s a completely different mechanic is the right way to go. Pets, for all their flaws, give rangers a HUGE amount of different options. Dropping pets as a class mechanic, and replacing them with just an F1,F2,F3,F4 option as opposed to the 40+ options we have now is a little…uninspired, and would make rangers a much duller class in the long run than what we have now.

whyme.3281:

btw shouldnt we start a new thread to collect all those non overpowered ideas for the upcomming “collaborative development”.

Yes, we should start one soon, and pool all the best ideas the community can come up with in one place.
(now if only I could come up with an idea that isn’t overpowered…..)

Totally agree with the OP. It’s been something I’ve been suggesting for a very long time, and it’s something the community wants to make happen.

I’m glad the community is beginning to voice its opinion on this matter, though. I made this thread (don’t bump it due to necroing) a LONG time ago to try and get some support for the idea, but apparently people simply don’t want build diversity.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/How-to-fix-the-LB-Ranger/first#post1500700

I’ve been keeping up with this, though, and I found some solid discussion occurring in this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Why-is-this-class-so-terrible/first

I don’t see why people argue against this type of suggestion. Nowhere is anyone stating that pets need to be removed. People are asking for alternative means of play and build diversity. ANet promised all builds of all classes being both fun and viable. Fact of the matter is that the ranger needs some help, and as it stands, there is no archer in this game.

And people want there to be one.

I have no objections against ally/pet mechanics in games, however I do have objections regarding the absolute neglect of a largely-desired playstyle. The ranger tree is disorganized and really not optimized, and resolving this issue by allowing for the player to remove their pet while transforming the trait lines for the class is the best way to go about it.

Nobody’s really asking to make one method of play better than the other – simply just that desired methods of play should be allowed.

So either thief needs a longbow, or ranger needs a change to make the archer archetype come to fruition. I don’t see any reason to object the latter, just because it “detracts” from the class feature. I mean stealing on thieves and adrenaline on warriors are their class features, yet arguably those two mechanics have almost no place in what defines the majority of thief/warrior play styles, nor are they the source of complaints regarding their effectiveness in combat.

I gave up on my ranger a long time ago just because it’s simply not fun, despite the fact that in every game I’ve ever played, I’ve mained an archer if I’ve had the option. GW2’s ranger, from this perspective, simply isn’t fun, just because the kit lacks synergy and is simply underwhelming.

Totally agree OP, i’ve also wanted pets removed since this game opened, i never ran with pets much in GW1 for similar reasons and at least in GW1 pets were more … reliable

I’ll put it down to this Pets should be an asset not something to depend on.

In modern gaming AI just can’t cut it, i agree developers have made great strides in NPC AI but its still no where close to a player..

I feel we are Rangers not Beastmasters, but Beastmasters should be a viable build if you like that, if you don’t you should not be forced to be hip joined to them, we should have a choice, like the other pet classes in the game.

I just wanted to say if the consensus is 60% don’t want Pets then i’m firmly in that demographic since GW1..

Also before all the “why don’t you play Warrior then if you hate pets” show up, Warriors play nothing like a Ranger and have totally different toolsets and build design.. I have both neither are the same.

Exactly, Dante. SB thief and LB warrior play nothing like the class, and frankly, from a kit/weapon skill design perspective, the ranger is great in how it plays. It just lacks a viable archer build due to the dependency on pets.

Either ANet needs to address these issues with the ranger and rework them, or they need to give another class the same type or similar playstyle with the Longbow.

That’s why I started this thread, and wrote that giant wall of text in my “comprehensive” thread.

I want the option to be:

-that guy with a longbow, messing you up from across the field.
-that jerk with a shortbow, interrupting the silly spellcasters while they try to nuke me.
-a medium armoured skirmisher, capable of dodging you close up then impaling you on my sword.
-that forest dwelling freak who can set traps that mess you right up.
-an animal loving guy, who’s pet cat just ate your face.

don’t make me a broken mix of all of them, let me be one at a time, and do it well.

I wanted to earlier, but, I still want to ask….

I agree that 8 utility skills are tied to the pet (40% of our utility skills),…but, What of the 51 of the Ranger’s 75 traits are directly tied to their pets? I think you overstated that number just a little.

I have always hated pets in pvp games. The AI is always terrible and there is always to many. I joined a spvp tourney yesterday. The enemy team was 5 necro pet builds. So they had 20+ pets following them around attacking it was just stupid.

Chirspy – open up the wiki, grab ranger traits, start counting. Like every class, we get 75 traits. Of those 51 are pet tied traits. That is, 51 of them are either “your pet” or “you and your pet”.

That’s why there are so many changes to trait locations and traits in my other thread.

stale.9785:

Chirspy – open up the wiki, grab ranger traits, start counting. Like every class, we get 75 traits. Of those 51 are pet tied traits. That is, 51 of them are either “your pet” or “you and your pet”.

That’s why there are so many changes to trait locations and traits in my other thread.

…Okay…

MARKSMANSHIP
Opening Strike – You
Alpha Training – Pet
Precise Strike – You and Pet
Steady Focus – You
Malicious Training – Pet
Keen Edge – You
Signet Mastery – You and Pet
Predator’s Instinct – You
Beastmaster’s Bond – You and Pet
Spotter – You
Piercing Arrows – You
Beastmaster’s Might – You and Pet
Eagle Eye – You
Signet of the Beastmaster – You
Remorseless – You and Pet

Skirmishing
Tail Wind – You
Furious Grip – You
Hunter’s Tactics – You
Pet’s Prowess – Pet
Sharpended Edges – You
Trapper’s Defense – You
Primal Reflexes – You
Comapnion’s Might – Pet
Agility Training – Pet
Carnivorous Appetite – Pet
Trapper’s Expertise – You
Honed Axes – You
Quick Draw – You
Trap Potency – You
Moment of Clarity – You and Pet

Wilderness Survival
Natural Vigor – You
Companion’s Defense – You and Pet
Peak Strength – You
Soften the Fall – You
Healer’s Celerity – You
Shared Anguish – You and Pet
Vigorous Renewal – You
Expertise Training – Pet
Wilderness Knowledge – You
Off-Hand Training – You
Oakheart Salve – You
Hide in Plain Sight – You
Martial Mastery – You
Empathic Bond – You and Pet
Bark Skin – You and Pet

Nature Magic
Rejuvenation – You
Fortifying Bond – Pet
Bountiful Hunter – You and Pet
Circle of Life – You
Concentration Training – Pet
Nature’s Bounty – You
Vigorous Spirits – You
Strength of Spirit – You
Nature’s Protection – You
Nature’s Vengeance – You
Evasive Purity – You
Two Handed Training – You
Enlargement – You and Pet
Spirits Unbound – You
Nature’s Voice – You and Pet

Beastmastery
Instinctual Bond – You and Pet
Loud Whistle – Pet
Nature’s Wrath – You
Speed Training – Pet
Master’s Bond – Pet
Shout Mastery – You and Pet
Compassion Training – Pet
Commanding Voice – Pet
Mighty Swap – Pet
Rending Attacks – Pet
Stability Training – Pet
Intimidation Training – Pet
Vigorous Training – Pet
Zephry’s Speed – You and Pet
Natural Healing – You and Pet

Total that affects:::
Only You : 39
You and Pet : 17
Only Pet : 19

I’m seeing only 36 traits that affect only your pet, or affect the pet and you in some way, not 51. the other 39 only affect you or your skills only (many of them will affect the pet after taking fortifying bond, but not before). I may have missed one or two things, but not 15. While 36:39 is still a ridiculous ratio, its not wht you say it is.

I had to press the F2 skill 3 fracking times just yesterday standing in town, before the skill would go off. This and other issues I had with Ranger, is why I stepped away from the game for 8 months. I figured I would give it a shot again, as I thought simple glaring bugs like the F2 problem would have been fixed. But all I see in patch notes after patch notes, is mainly Warrior love.

Conceded. I’m off, wrong, and gave the wrong number. I’m bad, terrible at math, and that’s STILL far too many pet related traits/skills. To me, the signets are the worst offenders.

Caveslug – F2 should interrupt whatever action the pet is preforming. It doesn’t, but we should keep demanding this until they get the idea.

caveslug.5934:

I had to press the F2 skill 3 fracking times just yesterday standing in town, before the skill would go off. This and other issues I had with Ranger, is why I stepped away from the game for 8 months. I figured I would give it a shot again, as I thought simple glaring bugs like the F2 problem would have been fixed. But all I see in patch notes after patch notes, is mainly Warrior love.

Broken profession mechanic since game lauch really makes one wonder isn’t there really no competent developers working at Anet. Then again salaries compared to other game studios are on the low end there so i guess it makes sense.
Anyways it’s a low priority issue since everyone plays warrior now :P

Boomstin.3460:

Anyways it’s a low priority issue since everyone plays warrior now :P

Its funny you say that, I was working on leveling one. But I have to be honest about the only class I even remotely have an interest in playing is ranger. I will keep my eye on patch notes, if I don’t see at least one issue being fixed for Rangers by the end of the year I will be uninstalling this game for good.

stale.9785:

Conceded. I’m off, wrong, and gave the wrong number. I’m bad, terrible at math, and that’s STILL far too many pet related traits/skills. To me, the signets are the worst offenders.

Caveslug – F2 should interrupt whatever action the pet is preforming. It doesn’t, but we should keep demanding this until they get the idea.

Signets and Shouts both (and the unresponsive Pet F2), I agree with you on those parts!