Guild Wars 2

the whole risk reward statement made back at launch that range weapons are meant to be less powerful than melee weapons since melee has more risk being up close to the foe being attacked. this works for nearly every profession.
ranger has actually fallen out of this category. lets take a look at the ranger build being used and their survivability/attributes from traits
the BM/bunker, generally uses GS now along with other melee weapons such as the sword/dagger combination, the trait set up used to get this spec off the ground grants a whole lot of healing power and pretty much the ranger is like a 55 necro from GW1 with all the blocks and evades from the weapon sets while healing is on CD. the ranger can keep regen up for the majority of fights granting them decent dmg from the melee weapons and great survivability.
the condition ranger, this is usually done with short bow as the main source of conditions and with a second set used for mobility or extra condition application, the traits grant extra toughness and distance to target really does not make much of a difference with this build, it is actually easier to fight targets that are right at melee range or out side it because of quick shot you can just strife them and stack bleeds while they try to hit you as you keep dodge rolling and quickshotting to keep them just outta reach of being able to eat your face. adding in the traits this spec generally gives rangers a lot of toughness from traits and armor as well so it is a lot easier to take a hit and just shrug off the dmg with this spec.
the spirit bunker ranger, generally close to the Bm/bunker, usually uses melee weapons, occasionally a bow, provides static buffs most of which are based off an internal cool down does excellent at melee range do to the procs of protection as well as passive regen if spirit of nature is out, also at melee the spirits are capable of using their actives and benefit the ranger which makes it more or less like fighting a ranger with 4+ pets and since the spirits req 30 in nature magic to really get this build off the ground rangers running this spec usually have a vary large health pool and can easily recover from almost any attack while they still have spirits active.
now this is my point for this whole thing is what if a ranger wants to do pure range dmg?
for a ranger to be effective with a long bow and to deal significant dmg they need to be in berserker gear out the kitten as well as going into the marks and skirmishing trait lines for the stats to improve the hits that longbow does on targets. but to be clear even though this spec is meant to use range and capitalize on dmg it has the worst survivability out of any of the other ranger specs available both trait wise and weapon wise. long bow does not have any abilities to keep targets at max range 1200+ to stay at full dmg on its auto attack which is the slowest auto attack rangers got, the one ability that it does have does not push targets back far enough to even be able to get off a max dmg auto attack, which is pretty bad considering the auto attack(long range shot) gets worse and worse as targets move in closer to you, to the point that if they are in melee range you are doing 1/2 to 3/5 the damage that the attack is capable of. now if you factor in the traits needed to run this spec they do absolutely nothing for the ranger’s survival ether, in a matter of fact running this build if you don’t have anyone else in the party or area that u can use as a distraction you are opening yourself to a world of hurt because you wont be able to keep distance and you will be doing less and less dmg as foes move into you forcing you to use more melee weapons without the traits to capitalize on their defense our offence and without the stats that the other specs get that increase their survivability at this melee range.

so to sum this up, ranger specs meant to capitalize on a foe at long distance has far more risk and less reward than a ranger spec meant to be in the face of a foe since as foes close in on rangers with longbows, the ranger has no real option to bring dmg back up as it starts to lessen as they get closer and closer, as well as no real way to evade damage, or gain distance to turn the tide of a fight once it hits melee range.

so yeah, pretty much rangers using longbows in pvp is free kills to anyone, even other rangers running any of the other specs.
and just to remind people ranger Longbow was hitting 4k+ on long range shots in beta it has been nerfed right at launch to keep rangers from being able to party, call target and spike it with the old quickness buff since they didn’t want rangers to do what they did in GW1 pvp… though if I can recall, right now, any other class if they get organized they can pretty much do this kind of spike.

“so yeah, pretty much rangers using longbows in pvp is free kills to anyone, even other rangers running any of the other specs.”

So glad I know this now! Gee Thanks!!!

Ouch, crushed by wall of text for 50k…

tl;dr 15 characters

OGDeadHead.8326:

Ouch, crushed by wall of text for 50k…

information cures idiocracy

Actually…in sPvP if you’re using a Longbow, you’re not aiming for the kills usually with it. You’re aiming to keep an area under your control since in SPvP the name of the game is Capture. This is also the case for WvW.

great sword does a much better job at controlling an area than long bow does, I don’t know why you would use one to try to control an area considering great sword is a cleave weapon that can deal with many foes/clones at one time… so again melee weapon has greater reward with less risk than ranged

I stopped believing ranged damage was supposed to be inferior to melee when I ran a grenade engineer. I don’t think it’s even viable to have ranged weapons be automatically weaker than melee weapons in a game where the primary means of survival is dodge. All that encourages is the warrior/guardian/mesmer melee teams who don’t have survivability problems even with poorly skilled players.

Considering how effective cripple, chill, and how many gap closing abilities these melee classes have, AND strafing backwards is slow as hell, i don’t think there is a lot of reward for ranged weapons. Agree with you OP.

In the original post you’re comparing a ranger in berserker gear with a longbow to several popular spvp and roaming WvW builds that don’t use berserker gear and your conclusion is that the longbow is too weak and rangers who use one are free kills.

I don’t disagree with you that the longbow is a bit underpowered and could use a buff, but I think your general argument is flawed because you’re simultaneously comparing different weapon sets and different gear sets. Most classes can’t get away with a full berserker setup unless they plan on sticking closely with a group that can keep attackers off them. The various bunker builds aren’t much of a bunker with full berserker’s gear, either, which is why they don’t wear it, even though it would increase their damage a lot.

I have used shortbow longbow beastmaster pretty well in all game modes . But ranger melee is so fun. I feel like a troll , so i am doing Faux RRR build in PvP atm with dagger+sword and shortbow . Such a troll build

Chokolata.1870:

I have used shortbow longbow beastmaster pretty well in all game modes . But ranger melee is so fun. I feel like a troll , so i am doing Faux RRR build in PvP atm with dagger+sword and shortbow . Such a troll build

short bow can be used pretty effectively in melee range though its really the long bow that debunks everything, lol and yes it is a troll build

Range weapons reward is being able to do damage from range while the melee enemy has to close that range while most likely doing no damage. You have CC and swiftness to increase the length of time before the enemy reaches you, at that point you should have chipped away enough health and maybe made them use some cool downs to have the fight in your favor. Range weapons should not give you more survive ability against the enemy if the enemy managed to reached you after you used your CDs.

ATM most ranged weapons do about 50% of the damage melee weapons do and IMHO its balanced. If you can’t properly kite stay away from ranged builds.

Puandro.3245:

Range weapons reward is being able to do damage from range while the melee enemy has to close that range while most likely doing no damage. You have CC and swiftness to increase the length of time before the enemy reaches you, at that point you should have chipped away enough health and maybe made them use some cool downs to have the fight in your favor. Range weapons should not give you more survive ability against the enemy if the enemy managed to reached you after you used your CDs.

ATM most ranged weapons do about 50% of the damage melee weapons do and IMHO its balanced. If you can’t properly kite stay away from ranged builds.

ranger longbow is the slowest attacking ranged weapon also ranger long bow does less dmg the closer targets get to you and there is little cc/buffs affiliated with it, the only cc that the weapon has is an aoe that u have to stand still for the duration of casting or it fails, with the amount of gap closing and evade abilities you will not do much with a long bow on a ranger until someone is in your face hitting you with something that will do a lot more dmg in one swing than you have done to them while they ran at you. again this is just for the ranger class this does not involve other professions ranged abilities, and it still puts rangers using long bows at greater risk of being used to wipe the floor than one that uses melee weapon sets or more mid range sets

if you want a good example of how a GS rangers says hello to a ranged foe (lests go with a LB ranger for this example) without taking any dmg what so ever, here it is, they use counter attack, take 3 steps than use swoop, and they are on them dealing way more dmg than a LB will do at melee and if they are knocked back all they have to do is dodge once and hit swoop again and they are back on them before the lb ranger gets off a long ranged shot

I totally disagree with the OP. Ones failure to stay at range doesn’t change the fact the melee in general does more damage. Melee weapons and pets both kill faster than thier counterparts. A good ranger will use his utility skills and pets to keep him prey or foe where he wants them. Snares and traps can be used to create distance or keep them close.

Bottom line you are normally in more danger if you are fighting in close.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

I totally disagree with the OP. Ones failure to stay at range doesn’t change the fact the melee in general does more damage. Melee weapons and pets both kill faster than thier counterparts. A good ranger will use his utility skills and pets to keep him prey or foe where he wants them. Snares and traps can be used to create distance or keep them close. and on that note most people walk around traps now, least I walk around areas that I see rangers throw items at before I bleed them to death.

Bottom line you are normally in more danger if you are fighting in close.

that’s how it should be but our melee specs have a lot more survivability and all around fighting potential than our ranged specs, look at weapon skills for peat sakes what about long bow says you can stop a charging warrior or guardian before they close 1,200 range, hell what utilities are you talking about cause if you are running pure dmg traps are not that great of a utility and remember warriors have the -98% on cripple now so there is really no point in crippling them. and I don’t believe the trap traits are part of the pure dmg setup

Shoot them when they come. Interupt their buff or as they cast a debuff on you. Hit them with vurnerability. Use barrage on your position. Take out your melee weapon and go to town.

In group play you combine it with pets to shut down people.

LB allows you to play many ways. You are only limited by your imagination.

Straegen.2938:

AoE trumps both ranged and melee by a mile in this game. The ranger is seriously lacking in AoE which is one reason it is generally poorly regarded in WvW.

totaly agree with you here. the ranger certainly lacks decent AoE. Traps as they are now just dont do the trick. The GS and offhand Axe are decent AoE and so are the Drakes but they are both melee.

Straegen.2938:

Barrage your position? I will happily trade a couple k of damage to hundred blades, backstab or shatter that ranger down. Barrage roots a player and doesn’t do that much damage. Might as well hang a sign out saying kill me please.

there are a few problems I ahve with this though:
i dont feel that you are totally lacking defensive utility if you go longbow.
Most people using it will go 30 into Marksmanship and hence take the signet trait, granting the effect to you. so in your described situation a ranger would just pop signet of stone. which is instant cast. And if its not up you simply dont use barrage.
Plus Barrage might not deal that much damage but:
It also cripples and it keeps on firing even after you finished channeling it.

apart from that: The Longbow by itself doesnt have mich defense, true.
But if you trait signets you have:

• Signet of Stone: 10 sec invulnerability every 48 sec,
• Signet of the Wild: 8 sec stability every 48 sec,
• Signet of Renewal: 2 point (Pet and you) AoE Condition remove every 24 secs.

and: even if you went full offensive, speccing 30 mms, 30 skrimishing you would still have left the 10 points for – 20% survival skills cooldown, giving you Lightning reflexes stunbreaker every 32 (?) seconds.

Straegen.2938:

Pets in groups are worthless beyond their skill. Best put them on passive and use them sparingly less they come back dead.

I disagree again: Pets are awesome! If you use them correctly they jsut dont die that easily: if traited you can safe their life by switching them every 15 second, plus eg. bears have ~5000 Vitality, which does not make them an easy kill. Drakes are sturdy, too and to much more damage, even birds can live through a fight if you give them some attention. been there done that.
Its hard in zerg situations, i admit that. I guess nothing apart from bears and maybe drakes can survive that kind of aoe damage.

What a great OP. Thanks for the perspective.

Chopps.5047:

What a great OP. Thanks for the perspective.

Now we all know that bow isn’t viable. man this guy showed us the light!

We need a Kitten Sticky in here!!!