Guild Wars 2

“We feel like rangers also currently have too much endurance regeneration through traits.”

I absolutely cannot and do not agree with this statement made by Anet.

Ranger endurance is a basic and key factor in ranger survivability.

Rangers:

• Primal Reflexes (Skirmishing Adept Major)
• Natural Vigor (does not stack with vigor Wilderness Survival Adept Minor)
• Vigorous Renewal (Wilderness Survival Adept Major)
• Vigorous Training (Beast Mastery Master Major)
• Lightning Reflexes (Utility Skill)

Okay, so we have access to a decent amount of Vigor right? So, it would seem from just glancing at it; however, this is quite as true as it first seems.

All the traits are quite spread out requiring trait point sacrifices to obtain and Natural Vigor does NOT stack with the vigor buff!

Factor in that a potentially large boost in our damage which tends to be much needed comes from having full endurance (remember this means 10 less points for other trait lines and potential vigor too) and that utilizing evades is a rangers main source of survival and Rangers become very, very dependent on endurance to function.

You also can’t just go about spamming something like Lightning Reflexes considering it’s a skill heavily relied upon for the stun break more so than the vigor (the vigor is definitely nice, but if you use it just for the vigor then a ranger is most likely out a stun break for 32-40 seconds which can be a very, very painfully long time). Even if you run with Signet of Renewal for an extra stun break; it’s in a similar, but somewhat reversed situation as LR (saving it for condi removal, rather than the stun break; which is still a nice option to have on it as it makes you think “do I use it here, or do I save it and use it there?”).

What if you run with the highly evasive sword (plus the possible dagger)? Yes, you can rely on the evades from the sword and dagger, but citing this as an excuse to nerf Ranger endurance regen is still countered by the fact that it’s arguing that Rangers’ be forced to acknowledge the Sword’s superiority over the other weapons even more so now than before. It’s an argument that kills build diversity.

It’s similar with the fact that we have other trait lines with vigor options: but do we sacrifice too much build diversity, pigeon holing players into specs? Wouldn’t this be counter productive to the other buffs that are aimed at creating diversity and just leaving the rangers not moving forward but sideways balance wise?

Sure, we have access to a good amount of vigor, but it’s something that is very heavily relied upon by the Ranger class and can be very situational. In fact I don’t think it would be too far off the mark to say that Endurance is just as much part of the “Ranger Mechanic” as pets are, if not more so at this point in time.

I really hope that Anet gets a chance to look into this topic in much more depth as I believe that nerfing Natural Vigor and the whole idea that Ranger’s have “too much endurance regeneration through traits” is a flawed argument.

If anything I think that Natural Vigor could be changed to the Grandmaster Minor trait (25) and Peak Strength could be shifted down to either Adept or Master and a trait change such as this would prove more balancing than a direct nerf to NV.

I would like to know other players thoughts on this too.

you forget one thing :

5 points in wilderness survival + Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew grant you +90% endurance regen, now combine it with s/d + sb evades + lightning reflex…

sminkiottone.6972:

you forget one thing :

5 points in wilderness survival + Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew grant you +90% endurance regen, now combine it with s/d + sb evades + lightning reflex…

Not everyone mins/maxes like that, and not everybody uses such food buffs every time they play pve maps. If it’s a concern for PvP WvW, it should be dealt just as confusion was, nerf it for wvw, not for PvE. I know I don’t use the vigor granting skills/traits and do really well with that 50% from that minor trait. While I am sure it will be OK, I do not agree with the developers that it’s “too much” vigor, especially since I rarely invoke the actual vigor boon-25% is a very small boost, making it almost not worth it to use 5 only for that trait.

No offense intended of course, as it’s fine to disagree. What I mean to say is that on its own, without food (as many players play PvE), 50% is not “too much endurance regeneration”, so the nerf does affect mightily all players that don’t eat that often (:P) and do not access vigor through other means.

sminkiottone.6972:

you forget one thing :

5 points in wilderness survival + Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew grant you +90% endurance regen, now combine it with s/d + sb evades + lightning reflex…

Almost sure the 2 bonuses doesn not stack.

sminkiottone.6972:

you forget one thing :

5 points in wilderness survival + Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew grant you +90% endurance regen, now combine it with s/d + sb evades + lightning reflex…

Since when Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew stacks with Natural Vigor? You are getting only the highest bonus, not both… Same as for Vigor, it doesn’t stack with food and Natural Vigor. You are always getting only +40 % or +50 % or +100 %, never sum of two or three of these…

Star Ace.5207:

Not everyone mins/maxes like that, and not everybody uses such food buffs every time they play pve maps. If it’s a concern for PvP WvW, it should be dealt just as confusion was, nerf it for wvw, not for PvE. I know I don’t use the vigor granting skills/traits and do really well with that 50% from that minor trait. While I am sure it will be OK, I do not agree with the developers that it’s “too much” vigor, especially since I rarely invoke the actual vigor boon-25% is a very small boost, making it almost not worth it to use 5 only for that trait.

No offense intended of course, as it’s fine to disagree. What I mean to say is that on its own, without food (as many players play PvE), 50% is not “too much endurance regeneration”, so the nerf does affect mightily all players that don’t eat that often (:P) and do not access vigor through other means.

I can understand, but untill Anet decides to balance PvE – WvW – sPvP separately we are all preatty screwed.

Right now the WvW situation is chaotic, there are several OP build out there :

almost immortal warrior dealing 10k with hunderd blades
stunlock-perma immobilize warriors
almost immortal rangers
2hot thiefs
confusion stacking engis, mesmers and thiefs
perma dodger rangers and thiefs
condi necros
… and many more

Another global nerf that will hit rangers the hardest as did quickness when it was nerfed . So sad

Fun fact :

yesterday as i was bored I played a level 27 mesmer alt. I was wondering why he had perma vigor and i saw that he has a minor adept trait which give 5s vigor on critical with kitten cooldown.

So warrior → signet of stamina : 50% endurance regen
Mesmer → 5 pts in critical tree : perma 100% endurance regen

I think that guardian also have a similar trait, so why is our endurance regen op ???

I know that mesmer and guardian don’t have easy speed access but now there’s runes for that…

Sollith.3502:

Ranger endurance is a basic and key factor in ranger survivability.
[…]
In fact I don’t think it would be too far off the mark to say that Endurance is just as much part of the “Ranger Mechanic” as pets are, if not more so at this point in time.

If you look across the class forum you will find at least the following classes in no specific order stating the same: Elementalist, Engineer, Guardian, Mesmer and Thief.

Dodging is a core mechanic of the game when it comes to damage mitigation and, of course, all classes need it. Some might need it more than others. But no class is designed to use it as a core mechanic.

Sollith.3502:

Rangers:

• Primal Reflexes (Skirmishing Adept Major)
• Natural Vigor (does not stack with vigor Wilderness Survival Adept Minor)
• Vigorous Renewal (Wilderness Survival Adept Major)
• Vigorous Training (Beast Mastery Master Major)
• Lightning Reflexes (Utility Skill)

Only one of these will be nerfed. Which is a passive Adept Minor and – right now – is more effective than any other active Vigor Rangers can get. The change makes sense when it comes to balancing traits within the class. And it also makes sense when looking at other classes where comparable traits come with a much bigger sacrifice pointwise. I personally don’t want all classes to be the same but obivously comparing classes sometimes is necessary to make people aware of the power of certain skills and traits.

Sollith.3502:

All the traits are quite spread out requiring trait point sacrifices to obtain and Natural Vigor does NOT stack with the vigor buff!

Nobody is forced to pick up all Vigor traits and quite obviously ANet doesn’t want us to have perma Vigor or at least wants it to come with a trade-off, e.g. less damage. It actually is nice that the traits are spread out on the Ranger because it opens up Vigor sources for different builds. Other classes are forced into one specific traitline.

Sollith.3502:

Factor in that a potentially large boost in our damage which tends to be much needed comes from having full endurance (remember this means 10 less points for other trait lines and potential vigor too) and that utilizing evades is a rangers main source of survival and Rangers become very, very dependent on endurance to function.

Besides other classes getting this trait on higher tiers, it is by no means desigend to grand a permanent 10% damage increase. And it will still work well with LB because nobody will be able to touch you at max range. It quite obviously is no close combat trait.

Sollith.3502:

It’s similar with the fact that we have other trait lines with vigor options: but do we sacrifice too much build diversity, pigeon holing players into specs? Wouldn’t this be counter productive to the other buffs that are aimed at creating diversity and just leaving the rangers not moving forward but sideways balance wise?

I personally do not think so. Because of the different options of Vigor it is way easier to get endurance regeneration on different Ranger builds. That does not apply to most other classes (e.g. Guardians and Mesmers). You also have to keep in mind that ANet wants to tone down dodging in general.

I’m actually quite exciting about the Ranger changes. Quite obviously not because of the nerf to Natural Vigor but because of the change to Spirits Unbound because it opens up more active build possibilities which do not go all Spirit and still might work. I already tailored a new build for my Ranger.

Sollith.3502:

If anything I think that Natural Vigor could be changed to the Grandmaster Minor trait (25) and Peak Strength could be shifted down to either Adept or Master and a trait change such as this would prove more balancing than a direct nerf to NV.

I think that this change would be okay. But I’m not sure if it would be any better. Many builds might keep their 50% endurance regen. Besides failing ANets goal of reducing endurance regeneration, this will definitely limit build diversity because people will feel even more forced to go 25-30 points into Wilderness. Empathic Bond already feels quite mandatory.

Chokolata.1870:

Another global nerf that will hit rangers the hardest as did quickness when it was nerfed . So sad

It won’t.

If there are no changes to their plans if anyone is hit hardest then it is the Engineer. Assuming no additional sources of endurance or Vigor when looking at classic build set ups, a Ranger using Natural Vigor will lose 1.5 evades per minute (down from 9 to 7.5, 17% decrease in effectiveness) while investing 5 points. An Engineer who has to swap kits constantly to gain perma Vigor will lose 3 evades per minute (down from 12 to 9, 25% decrease in effectiveness) while investing 20 points.

Jos.8793:

Fun fact :

yesterday as i was bored I played a level 27 mesmer alt. I was wondering why he had perma vigor and i saw that he has a minor adept trait which give 5s vigor on critical with kitten cooldown.

So warrior -> signet of stamina : 50% endurance regen
Mesmer -> 5 pts in critical tree : perma 100% endurance regen

I think that guardian also have a similar trait, so why is our endurance regen op ???

I know that mesmer and guardian don’t have easy speed access but now there’s runes for that…

Fun fact everyone knows about and people have been raging about since the preview was released. However, Devs already said that they are also going to change those traits (Elementalist, Guardian, Mesmer).

Things to keep in mind: Those traits require active fighting and high precision. Passive endurance regeneration does not require anything. Kit swapping at least does not require high precision.

There probably has not been any announcement regarding Guardians and Mesmers because they basically have close to no other source of endurance regeneration. Nerfing those traits or moving them up too high in the traitline will drastically limit build diversity because the traits will come with too high opportunity costs for defensive, supportive or condition based builds.

Speed is in now way related to Vigor.

Xaylin.1860:

Jos.8793:

Fun fact :

yesterday as i was bored I played a level 27 mesmer alt. I was wondering why he had perma vigor and i saw that he has a minor adept trait which give 5s vigor on critical with kitten cooldown.

So warrior -> signet of stamina : 50% endurance regen
Mesmer -> 5 pts in critical tree : perma 100% endurance regen

I think that guardian also have a similar trait, so why is our endurance regen op ???

I know that mesmer and guardian don’t have easy speed access but now there’s runes for that…

Fun fact everyone knows about and people have been raging about since the preview was released. However, Devs already said that they are also going to change those traits (Elementalist, Guardian, Mesmer).

Things to keep in mind: Those traits require active fighting and high precision. Passive endurance regeneration does not require anything. Kit swapping at least does not require high precision.

There probably has not been any announcement regarding Guardians and Mesmers because they basically have close to no other source of endurance regeneration. Nerfing those traits or moving them up too high in the traitline will drastically limit build diversity because the traits will come with too high opportunity costs for defensive, supportive or condition based builds.

Speed is in now way related to Vigor.

Yeah right… But you know i don’t think that my lvl 27 mesmer with blue/Green gear have high precision, however GS1 is enough to trigger vigor ; i don’t think it can be qualified as “active fighting”… I can also add that the minor traits we have un several trees are pretty underwherlming.

For the speed, i was talking about it cause guardian and mes mers often talk about it as a compensation which is somehow understandable (“we have to dodge, cos we have low mobility”)

I hear somewhere you cant have more then 100% endurance generation.
Maybe I wrong but if I wrong vigor+stew+minor trait= 190% minus december 10 = 165%

Jos.8793:

Yeah right… But you know i don’t think that my lvl 27 mesmer with blue/Green gear have high precision, however GS1 is enough to trigger vigor ; i don’t think it can be qualified as “active fighting”…

GS1 is good at triggering it because it is channeled attack with multiple hits. Won’t work on any other weapon (maybe Sc3 to some extent). Especially Phantasm Mesmers do not constantly smack their foes. Neither do Condition Mesmers because they lack a reaonsable AA.

You won’t gain Vigor when running away.
You won’t gain Vigor within stealth.
You won’t gain Vigor when doing anything else than hitting your enemies.

The only more active way of applying Vigor is using a skill which grants Vigor.

You are forgetting that devs are also human and they make mistakes… Unfortunately, too often do they touch rangers…

sminkiottone.6972:

you forget one thing :

5 points in wilderness survival + Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew grant you +90% endurance regen, now combine it with s/d + sb evades + lightning reflex…

They don’t stack by the way

Ryan.8367:

sminkiottone.6972:

you forget one thing :

5 points in wilderness survival + Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew grant you +90% endurance regen, now combine it with s/d + sb evades + lightning reflex…

They don’t stack by the way

Sometimes I feel like such people who have no idea about the game mechanics just come here and troll. Just for fun. Indeed, they do not stack.

Xaylin.1860:

Jos.8793:

Yeah right… But you know i don’t think that my lvl 27 mesmer with blue/Green gear have high precision, however GS1 is enough to trigger vigor ; i don’t think it can be qualified as “active fighting”…

GS1 is good at triggering it because it is channeled attack with multiple hits. Won’t work on any other weapon (maybe Sc3 to some extent). Especially Phantasm Mesmers do not constantly smack their foes. Neither do Condition Mesmers because they lack a reaonsable AA.

You won’t gain Vigor when running away.
You won’t gain Vigor within stealth.
You won’t gain Vigor when doing anything else than hitting your enemies.

The only more active way of applying Vigor is using a skill which grants Vigor.

I think that sword can also easily trigger it but I agree on the fact that u must be fighting or not running away to trigger it, and i think that 100% endurance regeneration instead of 50% is a pretty fair compensation. Don’t get me wrong, i do not ask for a mesmer nerf, I think this skill is fine as it is.

The thing that bothers me is that while seeking build diversity this nerf (and most of the 10th december adjustements) will once again put the ranger in a cornered bunker/regen/beastmaster playstyle

I just wish a developer told me how I have “too much endurance” by using the current minor trait and not using any other source of vigor. If anything, it serves the class right-the trait is rather wonderful as it is, as by no means it is 100% endurance, so it’s certainly not OP for any PvE venture.

Do people complain about how other Professions have “too many dodges” for PvE? I have “just enough”, not too many.

That minor trait is not perma-vigor, so the developers should address the boon, not that trait itself. I can do perma-vigor just fine with my Guardian and Mesmer, and those Professions in Role-playing theory shouldn’t be more mobile than a Ranger. Not asking for “OP” dodging, but to avoid changing something that needs not be changed, especially for PvE.

This is not attacking the developers, but I still ask them if in my specific build situation, I have “too much endurance” by that trait on its own. A rhetorical question to be sure, as they know the answer-since it isn’t perma vigor, but just half the endurance vigor would bring, clearly no.

In short, perma vigor, OP-50% endurance, NOT OP. Totally unnecessary change for PvE, WvW would be OK.

Corpus Christi.2057:

Ryan.8367:

sminkiottone.6972:

you forget one thing :

5 points in wilderness survival + Bowl of orrian truffle and meat stew grant you +90% endurance regen, now combine it with s/d + sb evades + lightning reflex…

They don’t stack by the way

Sometimes I feel like such people who have no idea about the game mechanics just come here and troll. Just for fun. Indeed, they do not stack.

Clam down man, I was sure about it :P.. but I was wrong, they do not stack… but why not ? there are too many restrictions to vigor.

Xaylin.1860:

Jos.8793:

Fun fact :

yesterday as i was bored I played a level 27 mesmer alt. I was wondering why he had perma vigor and i saw that he has a minor adept trait which give 5s vigor on critical with kitten cooldown.

So warrior -> signet of stamina : 50% endurance regen
Mesmer -> 5 pts in critical tree : perma 100% endurance regen

I think that guardian also have a similar trait, so why is our endurance regen op ???

I know that mesmer and guardian don’t have easy speed access but now there’s runes for that…

Fun fact everyone knows about and people have been raging about since the preview was released. However, Devs already said that they are also going to change those traits (Elementalist, Guardian, Mesmer).

Things to keep in mind: Those traits require active fighting and high precision. Passive endurance regeneration does not require anything. Kit swapping at least does not require high precision.

There probably has not been any announcement regarding Guardians and Mesmers because they basically have close to no other source of endurance regeneration. Nerfing those traits or moving them up too high in the traitline will drastically limit build diversity because the traits will come with too high opportunity costs for defensive, supportive or condition based builds.

Speed is in now way related to Vigor.

This is not a personal attack, but since you are defending this nerf, and I know the developers won’t answer, how is 50% endurance regen “OP” for PvE anything (but WvW) especially given the Ranger archetype? It makes sense for the Ranger more than for the other Professions you mentioned, and it goes ery well with the “wilderness survival” theme. It makes sense that a Warrior must equip a signet to have a similar benefit, but the Ranger having that 50% makes most sense, and I doubt players complain about other players ability to “dodge too much” on PvE situations.

Note that I don’t use vigor at all in my build. Explain how I have more vigor than my Mesmer or Guardian with that trait on its own.

As for build diversity, one doesn’t really need 50% perma endurance regen if you use the other vigor granting abilities/traits. So as of now, one can also build without it, but nerfing Natural Vigor doesn’t seem like the answer, but is a very big ??? to me-almost as if they wanted to nerf it in case someone complained about Rangers getting too many buffs in this patch, without any negatives, and that such nerf must be the mandatory negative to appease other Professions.

Honestly, just as you said, I cannot envision building my Guardian or Mesmer without those traits, granting true perma-vigor, but am OK with just 50% endurance regen with my Ranger. I do not want to be OP, just have a few more dodges available for PvE.

And yes, all will be fine, I’ll just have to dodge less, so I will survive less in a way (remember the combo trait with protection for a few seconds on dodge, if used.) I just don’t see how it MUST be a necessary change. The “we don’t like how rangers…” can be answered “so? your players like it and don’t seem to think it’s OP at all.”

Don’t feel offended, I just don’t think you can come up with any possible argument saying it’s a good change because it’s “OP” or “better” for the Ranger than any other profession, because certainly in my case my other Professions have more endurance regeneration for very little trait cost.

People are just upset with Rangers dodging so much. Which is dumb because this nerf isn’t really going to change much. Stack on Energy sigils, use vigor traits and LR, and no one really cares anymore.

DiamondMeteor.8345:

People are just upset with Rangers dodging so much. Which is dumb because this nerf isn’t really going to change much. Stack on Energy sigils, use vigor traits and LR, and no one really cares anymore.

The point I was trying to make was that, with this nerf to natural vigor, in order to dodge somewhere close to as much (if not more because the vigor buff grants 100% endurance regen compared to Natural Vigors’ 50% that does not stack), players are now being pushed into using traits like Vigorous Renewal. Currently, Vigorous Renewal is a an option for party support rather than a necessity.

The same thing could be said about energy sigils and vigor buff traits (one is actually given passively through rng) which also would force players into those trait lines that may not even make sense for their build, just for one trait.

Now instead of having a little power into a build to bring along something like Spotter to help the group, one might feel forced to spec into beast mastery just for the vigor on pet swap instead. Rather than providing more options this just narrows them down into essentially forcing build into bunker specs; which completely contradicts what they are trying to do with their other adjustments.

The way the ranger endurance is now requires players to be actively moving around and aware of how much endurance they have (if you are close to full one might hold off on a maul for 2 seconds to get that extra 10% damage).

If they are so concerned about ranger endurance regen, they should focus on adjusting the traits that give the full vigor buff that provides 100% endurance regen, rather than one that provides only half that at 50% and doesn’t even stack, but ends up being a nice in between to allow Rangers to options with their traits.

… or we could just depend on the sword even more so than we do now (and why not remove most of the other weapons while we’re at it?)

Star Ace.5207:

Xaylin.1860:

Fun fact everyone knows about and people have been raging about since the preview was released. However, Devs already said that they are also going to change those traits (Elementalist, Guardian, Mesmer).

Things to keep in mind: Those traits require active fighting and high precision. Passive endurance regeneration does not require anything. Kit swapping at least does not require high precision.

There probably has not been any announcement regarding Guardians and Mesmers because they basically have close to no other source of endurance regeneration. Nerfing those traits or moving them up too high in the traitline will drastically limit build diversity because the traits will come with too high opportunity costs for defensive, supportive or condition based builds.

Speed is in now way related to Vigor.

This is not a personal attack, but since you are defending this nerf, and I know the developers won’t answer, how is 50% endurance regen “OP” for PvE anything (but WvW) especially given the Ranger archetype? It makes sense for the Ranger more than for the other Professions you mentioned, and it goes ery well with the “wilderness survival” theme. It makes sense that a Warrior must equip a signet to have a similar benefit, but the Ranger having that 50% makes most sense, and I doubt players complain about other players ability to “dodge too much” on PvE situations.

Don’t bother. He doesn’t believe in any thematic logic or consistency to the game such as light and medium armor classes being able to dodge more than heavy armor classes.

And FWIW, mesmers and guardians have pretty much the same access to vigor as everyone else.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

Their traits which give 5 sec of vigor upon a critical hit seem like they should’ve been first on the nerfing block. Instead, from the dev comments it seems like they targeted the medium armor classes first, then added the guardian and mesmer traits to the discussion when it became clear how unfair this was. Warrior is, as usual, spared.

And elementalist is actually getting an endurance boost, as their 50% regen trait is being moved from master to adept. (I don’t have a problem with this because it’s a light armor class.) They also have a 5 sec of vigor on a crit trait, but it’s 20 points, not 5 points like for guardian and mesmer. I’d say that’s actually the appropriate place for the same guardian and mesmer traits. It lines up logically with the ranger 15 point trait which gives 5 sec vigor when you’re hit with a critical (i.e. vigor outside of your control is 15 points, vigor within your control is 20 points).

For the guardian, low crit rate doesn’t matter as much because most of their weapons cleave (hit 3 targets) or do AOE damage (hit 5 targets). So guardians don’t need a high crit rate for the vigor to proc reliaably. For mesmers, I’m trying to figure out if its only on the mesmer’s crits, or if crits from illusions/phantasms count as well. Regardless, they have a trait which will give AOE vigor upon shattering, which (after the healing spring vigor nerf – which I agreed with) is the most prolific source of vigor in the game.

Jos.8793:

I think that sword can also easily trigger it but I agree on the fact that u must be fighting or not running away to trigger it, and i think that 100% endurance regeneration instead of 50% is a pretty fair compensation. Don’t get me wrong, i do not ask for a mesmer nerf, I think this skill is fine as it is.

The thing that bothers me is that while seeking build diversity this nerf (and most of the 10th december adjustements) will once again put the ranger in a cornered bunker/regen/beastmaster playstyle

Don’t get me wrong, the on crit traits are great. But people seem to forget that they require a decent amount of crit. In PvP a Beserkers Amulet is just enough. Less won’t do. Conclusively, you will have to invest statwise to make this trait work and it won’t work with any build.

The question is – assuming that a Ranger only uses Natural Vigor as sole source of endurance regeneration: Does 1.5 less dodges per minute break a class and limit its build diversity? I personally do not think so. Especially since you could go for additional traits with Vigor.

Star Ace.5207:

This is not a personal attack, but since you are defending this nerf, and I know the developers won’t answer, how is 50% endurance regen “OP” for PvE anything (but WvW) especially given the Ranger archetype?

I don’t believe that the 50% endurance regen is “OP”. I personally would be fine if ANet didn’t change anything about endurance regeneration at all. I do believe though, that people are exaggerating the effect of the announced adjustments.

I also believe that no specific class is entitled to a vastly bigger amount of endurance regeneration because dodges are a game mechanic – not a class mechanic – even though classic roleplay archetypes might support this view. If any class had a significantly higher amount of dodges it would gain an unjustifiable advantage over other classes because dodging can mitigate a huge amount of damage. This already shows when looking at Necros who sometimes have a harder time in PvE because they can’t dodge that often. I personally think that the archetypes are incorporated into the weapons. That’s why Thieves and Rangers have evades on their weapons.

Star Ace.5207:

Note that I don’t use vigor at all in my build. Explain how I have more vigor than my Mesmer or Guardian with that trait on its own.

As for build diversity, one doesn’t really need 50% perma endurance regen if you use the other vigor granting abilities/traits.

As I said, I do not think that it is overpowered. However, it is way too strong in comparison to other options Rangers have. Even after the nerf it is still as effective as Vigor on Heal and only slighter weaker than Vigor when being hit. It had to be balanced in relation to the other available traits. It will be nerfed because ANet wants less endurance rather than more. So buffing the other traits is no option. That’s how simple it is. If ANet thought that Rangers had too much Vigor they would also have nerfed the other traits.

But as you said yourself: Rangers can do without it. But some people on here behave like it is the doom for Rangers. The reaction to the announced nerf is way out of proportion.

Solandri.9640:

Don’t bother. He doesn’t believe in any thematic logic or consistency to the game …

Don’t be resentful.

I do get that you think one should desire games to be as realistic as possible. I’m not neglecting logic. However, this is a game. GW2 actually breaks with many classic conventions for roleplay classes. I just disagree that realism is the benchmark for balancing in GW2. You can’t balance dodges and endurance regeneration based on realism because the classes were not designed in this way. If you went this way you would have to do a total redesign.

Solandri.9640:

And FWIW, mesmers and guardians have pretty much the same access to vigor as everyone else.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

If you just count, yes, same as some classes although on the lower spectrum. However, their skills or traits are less versatile. Vigor on Shatter only works out in Shatter builds. Shatter Mesmers will be fine – although probably whining about a damage loss. On the Guardian, the shout has a very long cooldown, thus, very low Vigor uptime, and can actually kill yourself. Converting Vigor through Pure Voice is very unreliable because you can’t control it.

Solandri.9640:

Their traits which give 5 sec of vigor upon a critical hit seem like they should’ve been first on the nerfing block. Instead…

I think that the medium classes appear to be hit hardest because they left out Warriors and Necros (nothing to nerf there anyway…) and didn’t decide on how to procceed with Guardians and Mesmers. Another reason might be that Engineers are the only true perma Vigor class (while the on-crit traits only provide pseudo perma Vigor) and that Rangers and Thieves also come with weapon options which provide evades which can lead to very abusive playstyles when paired with high endurance regeneration.

Solandri.9640:

[Elementalists] also have a 5 sec of vigor on a crit trait, but it’s 20 points, not 5 points like for guardian and mesmer. I’d say that’s actually the appropriate place for the same guardian and mesmer traits.

The Elementalist trait actually is at 10 points. So still quite cheap. But yeah, I’m glad they scrapped the Renewing Stamina change.

Moving the on-crit traits on Mesmers and Guardians isn’t that easy. If you look at the traits in isolation you do have a point. But within the context of the whole class it won’t work. Moving up the traits will either make no difference (already 20 points invested) or limit access which might reduce build diversity. Making them Majors will break the consistency of the traitlines because consecutive traits build up upon those traits. A possible but very unthoughtful solution. Increasing the ICD or adding a % chance to procc will make the trait useless for many builds, thus, limiting build diversity.

Solandri.9640:

For the guardian, low crit rate doesn’t matter as much because …

It’s indeed easier for Guardians because of their AoEs. This won’t work in 1vs1, though. So yes, Guardians will need a sufficient amount of precision. Mesmers on the other hand do have very few area attacks. GS1 indeed is awesome for proccing. But thats just one out of several weapons.

Vigor does not proc from Illusions. They might proc for the Illusions themselves (not sure though) but the Mesmer won’t get it. That’s why Phantasm Mesmers and Condition Mesmers might have trouble if they nerfed Critical Infusion too hard.

And yes, Shatter Mesmers will be fine. But Vigorous Revelation is only feasable in shatter builds. If you do not go for high Illusions your shatter recharge will be too low which will lock out many Mesmer builds. You will also need Deceptive Evasion. And, quite obviously, it is a no no for Phantasm Mesmers.

Go into the Mist and get 20 into Duelling.
Pick up 3 amulets (Berserker, Celestial, Soldier).
Go and hit a training golem with the sword AA and watch Vigor proc.
A: Soldier should be around 20% crit chance. In no way perma Vigor
B: Celestial will be around 35-40% crit chance. Still not even close.
C: Berserker will equal about 50% crit chance. Close but still no.

The only way to get perma Vigor is to get boon duration (at least 20% to get an additional second) with about 50% crit chance or to hit multiple targets. In a 1vs1 a Mesmer is most unlikely to gain perma Vigor. It is a bit easier for Guardians because of Symbols but I know only few builds which have such a high crit chance (not talking about PvE Zerkers…).

Bottom line is that on-crit Vigor is great and provides perma Vigor on paper. But people really overestimate the actual uptime of Vigor and underestimate the stat commitment. People also forget that you will be screwed when running away because you won’t proc it.

Why the grief? Vigor is getting nerfed across the board for all the classes. We have it better than most classes still, because we have evade on more of our weapons than any other profession.

In my case, not griefing at all, as I am not one to troll or complain left and right. This patch is actually nice for the Rangers with the exception of the natural vigor nerf, ESPECIALLY considering that PvE critters don’t complain in forums about how many dodges Rangers have (“death… good!” they are simple minded and don’t complain as much as WvW human players.)

In short, 50% isn’t too much by any means, and I can’t see why this needs to be a PvE change. I am not overestimating its usefulness, as it has saved Eliina and her trusty pets quite a number of times for her specific setup, which even isn’t a flavor of the month build for PvE (much less WvW.)

Survival will be less on PvE, even if the change may not be substantial in the eyes of many.

Axyl.9408:

Why the grief? Vigor is getting nerfed across the board for all the classes. We have it better than most classes still, because we have evade on more of our weapons than any other profession.

Because we have no burst, limited AoE, and our most powerful build is a condition tank. Those dodges are there to keep us alive while we chip away at the enemy.
If I could burst for 10k+ on Hunter’s Call or do 2-3x the DPS of the Longbow auto on a Rapid fire I’d accept a hit to dodging. As it stands we rely on pressure builds that are meant to outlast the foe rather than mow them down. That’s not the kind of class that you try to make less durable without giving some kind of offensive compensation to.

It’s not going to kill the class as some think it might but it represents a fundamental lack of understanding of how the Ranger class works, on Anet’s part, compared to other, more “balanced” classes.

Its hard admit but ranger are getting the better side of this “cross the board” nerf.
Only our “lazy” vigor trait is getting nerf. Lets look at the data:
normal vigor no bonuses= 6 dodges per 1min.
natural vigor = 9 dodges per 1min(before nerf).
100%vigor up time= 12 dodges per 1min.
50% vigor uptime= 9 dodges=natural vigor
1sigil of energy+basic vigor=9 dodges per min=natural vigor=50%vigor uptime.
2sigil of energy= 12 dodges per min= 100% vigor uptime.
LR + primal reflexes = 50% vigor uptime(without boon duration bonus, there are many other combination one can achieve 50% vigor up time).

Bunker conditions shout builds can easily maintain 50%-100% vigor uptime with LR and traits(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmbhpTm3rUg). Bunker BM builds can do the same with birds swaping.
Power builds will suffer the most, another reason for power users to leave WS trait line behind and relay on defensive runes/foods/healing spring for condi removal(like dps warriors) and sigils of energy / primal reflexes for the dodges. I think A.net try pushe power builds to relay more on the nature magic trait line for defense and WS trait line is the defense line for condi damage builds.

Our procs from vigor traits are 5 seconds on fairly long cooldowns . Other classes usually get 10s of vigor + something else

Chokolata.1870:

Our procs from vigor traits are 5 seconds on fairly long cooldowns . Other classes usually get 10s of vigor + something else

After the 10/12 update?
PR is 5sec vigor every 15sec without boon duration= 33%up time, very good trait.

LughLongArm.5460:

Chokolata.1870:

Our procs from vigor traits are 5 seconds on fairly long cooldowns . Other classes usually get 10s of vigor + something else

After the 10/12 update?
PR is 5sec vigor every 15sec without boon duration= 33%up time, very good trait.

After taking a critical hit. That can be thousands of damage depending on build. Good to have but not exactly something you want to rely on in a fight.

The funny this is, how often is using any of these vigor traits actually be worth it compared to the other options? Rangers are already so stressed on traits for every little thing that its a struggle to pick up even a single vigor trait.

If they want us to move further down the wilderness survival tree for defense like they say, or want us to pick up other vigor traits to dodge more, then they must condense traits to open up more viable choices.

The only vigor trait worth using is the vigorous training in BM line . You have 100% control over it

LughLongArm.5460:

Chokolata.1870:

Our procs from vigor traits are 5 seconds on fairly long cooldowns . Other classes usually get 10s of vigor + something else

After the 10/12 update?
PR is 5sec vigor every 15sec without boon duration= 33%up time, very good trait.

It is most likely a reference to “Call to Arms” (Warrior) which indeed is a very good skill. However, it is not like every class is getting something like that. Actually none besides Warrior does.

Chokolata.1870:

The only vigor trait worth using is the vigorous training in BM line . You have 100% control over it

I personally disagree.

Vigorous Renewal offers the same control although it might come with a trade-off (when to heal). It works great with Troll Urgent though since you constantly reapply it anyway. It’s also still pretty nice when combined with Healing Spring although it was nerfed.

Primal Reflexes probably won’t work in PvE but it is still viable in PvP and WvW. There always is somebody who will land a critical hit. Even condi builds. One might argue that Vigor is wasted when your endurance bar is full. But usually it will only trigger when endurance is of use. When enemies get closer (ranged builds) or your evade skills are on cooldown. You don’t have to use a skill. And you do not have to attack. Just don’t eat a Kill Shot to make it proc.

Bri.8354:

The funny this is, how often is using any of these vigor traits actually be worth it compared to the other options? Rangers are already so stressed on traits for every little thing that its a struggle to pick up even a single vigor trait.

If they want us to move further down the wilderness survival tree for defense like they say, or want us to pick up other vigor traits to dodge more, then they must condense traits to open up more viable choices.

Basically every class has this struggle. Maybe besides Warriors. You have to make a choice. In PvP I play my Mesmer with a Glamour Interrupt build. But there is no way I can get all respective traits (Glamour = 1/4, Interrupt 2/4). People frequently assume that when planning to go all bow etc. they should be able to get all bow traits. That is just not how it works.

There are some trait issues with Rangers but my main concern would be traps (mainly placement) and condition cleanses (reliance on Empathic Bond). They do not interfere with Vigor though. If you really want more Vigor it is quite easy to get on a Ranger. Most traits are Adept and I personally do not have any must-have traits in those tiers. But as I said, that’s just my personal opinion.

Vigor traits and energy sigils are nice and all, but that means we have to give up what little offensive boosts we have.

For example the vigor trait in Skirmishing competes with [30% more pet crit dmg/might for pet on crit/pet moves faster] which vastly improves pet performance. That energy sigil could have been a sigil of accuracy/geomancy/bursting/etc. Will we have to further lower what meagre dps we can do?

Not to mention I find the argument of “it’s only XX dodges less /min and 6.67 -> 8/seconds” presented here and by Mr Peters to be questionable. Yeah, in total amount of dodges available it’s not a huge difference. However, personally I feel dodging is more about having it when you need it, not how many times you can do it. And this nerf does affect the timing dodge is ready.
Sigil of Energy is valuable because it instantly restores enough endurance for a dodge when you need it. Imagine if it was “gain 50% of your endurance over the next 10 seconds” instead. Would it be used as much as it is now?

Considering the length of most battles, the fact that I won’t have another dodge over the next 30 seconds is not what is important, it’s the fact that my dodge won’t be ready for another 2 seconds compared to now in which time I will have to tank whatever comes at me in that timeframe, especially if I’m using a non-evasion weapon like longbow, axe/torch, axe/axe, etc.

Furthermore, what is the purpose of the global vigor nerf? Isn’t it to reduce the number of dodges all classes get? But as mentioned in this thread there are many ways to restore endurance, and if the nerf is too heavy people will reach out for them. Giving them even more dodges than pre-nerf. They thought sword/dagger + LR rangers relying only on Natural Vigor dodged too much? Wait till they use energy sigils, vigor traits and endurance regen food. The nerf would encourage the opposite of its purpose.

Rangers major problem is that Protect me that kills pets or needing to trait the stone signet to get invlunerability .

It’s a pretty potent trait because it’s basically unstrippable, 100% uptime vigor for a measily 5 pts in a trait line. So I could see why it’s the focus of a class balance, but I always thought of it as one of the upsides to playing ranger and it feels necessary in a way. Maybe instead of nerfing it, it should be moved up to master to require more of an investment.

they will nerf it and buff some pointless traits no one will ever use and call it a day

They could also decide to leave it as is but move it to a grand master major then rework empathetic bond to some 1 transfer per 15, 20, or 30 second. Then next patch complain on ranger’s passive condition removal.

mooty.4560:

It’s a pretty potent trait because it’s basically unstrippable, 100% uptime vigor for a measily 5 pts in a trait line. So I could see why it’s the focus of a class balance, but I always thought of it as one of the upsides to playing ranger and it feels necessary in a way. Maybe instead of nerfing it, it should be moved up to master to require more of an investment.

It’s not 100% vigor uptime; the trait only gives you 50% endurance regeneration (vigor gives you 100% for x seconds).

Sollith.3502:

It’s not 100% vigor uptime; the trait only gives you 50% endurance regeneration (vigor gives you 100% for x seconds).

You’re right, was a bit of an exaggeration on my part. It’s still a very strong trait.

Very strong or not they are slowly removing/weakening choices to push for build diversity. Ranger traits as a whole are not that good many of which would be consider partial traits on any other profession. Once they decided to tier the traits they did not really look at the overall strength of the ranger traits and the profession has suffered for it.

Bran.7425:

Very strong or not they are slowly removing/weakening choices to push for build diversity. Ranger traits as a whole are not that good many of which would be consider partial traits on any other profession. Once they decided to tier the traits they did not really look at the overall strength of the ranger traits and the profession has suffered for it.

It’s a minor adept trait so I don’t see how the option of investing 5 whole points has much effect on build diversity. Also, ranger traits aren’t particularly bad save maybe the grandmaster options. There are a lot of pet traits that are actually quite decent in theory but they’re not worth taking since pet AI and damage needs a tweak. That has nothing to do with the traits themselves, however.

They could have easily switched its places with either the master or grandmaster minor trait and kept it as it is , considering that both of these are not really GM quality . But once again they have decided to beat a dead horse

My problem is still the fact that we are very similar to warriors in many of the skills/traits we have to utilize, but less armor and vitality and yet we have similar endurance potential? The only thing that really stands out in this area is Natural Vigor, otherwise the difference in endurance regen potential is rather negligible.

I mean doesn’t that seem weird that a:

• heavy armor
• high vitality
• high bursting
• high survivability

…class should have so much compared to a class that utilizes:

• medium armor
• less vitality
• a sometimes extremely unreliable mechanic
• far higher cool downs on similar skills/traits (as well as having many of them really only effect that aforementioned unreliable mechanic; remember warriors also)

…without a real tradeoff?

I always thought that tradeoff was coming from stuff like natural vigor and built in evasion mechanics in certain weapons, but apparently we are supposed to do the same as warriors, but with far less.

Thieves at least get lots of stealth options, “teleporting” abilities (sword teles, etc.) to exit and/or re-initiate combat when they feel it’s more on their terms (and in my opinion from what I have played and seen of them, they don’t seem like an evasive style class, but more of a quick burst -> disengage -> pop back in and burst style of class).

This is why I view the endurance and evasive trait/abilities of the ranger to be necessary. We aren’t a engage -> re-engage play style and are not a more direct burst style, but an “endurance” play style that chisels away at our enemies.