Guild Wars 2

Just a shower-thought I had, I’m sure it would fix alot of revs problems with its lacking ability to pick different utilities instead of the given ones by invoking:

Elementalist can switch between 4 elements but afaik switches mostly between 2 elements. In extreme situations the other 2 elements might come in handy.

So why not do the same for Revenant:

• Instead of 2 legends, we get 3 legends to play with at the same time
• No need to get free utility choices
• probably still switching between 2 legends (glint and shiro for example while jalis could be used against too much pressure)
• this would also solve the energy/cooldown dilemma

Yes Elementalist cant switch weapons. But if you calculate the skillchoices elementalist has, with the one Revenant has, its quite similar after this possible fix:

Elementalist:
4×5 Weapon skills
1×5 Utilities (choose-able!)

Revenant:
2×5 Weapon skills
3×5 Utilites (not changeable individually, only through legend-change)

In my head, the difference between the two utility-bars is balanced since Elementalist can use every Utility with every element, so theyre able to individualice them. Revenant on the other hand can only individualice all 5 together and maybe has a few he wont ever need. Therefor Revenant can use more utilities just like Ele on weapon (If the energy-usage stay the same, theres no spam possibleby swapping legends, wouldnt be different to its actual situation).

The cooldowns:
We have 9 seconds CD on legends right now. If we have 3 legends (Glint, Jalis, Shiro), and youre on Glint for example and want to switch to Jalis:
Glint is on 9 sec CD and Shiro is on 9 sec CD, youre on Jalis. So the inactive legend gets a cooldown aswell (unlike switching elements on Elementalist).

What do you guys think?

And to add: This also solves the problem that it feels that most legends havent left the BETA phase. You get more choices, so utilites you dont need dont waste THAT much space on the bar.

You literally thought of exactly the same idea I was thinking of just the other day. It just gives more options and could help give the other legends more use.

+1

Sure, sounds good.

But no more resetting mist energy to 50% on legend swap. Feel free to add your own version of a trade-off. If this happened and we still retained mist energy reset, it would be ridiculously overpowered.

Either that or give each legend another set of utilities, so people can actually make choice and customize their gameplay a bit more.
It’s been a while since release and I think it’s about time the class gets finished.
Anet is talking about balancing skills separately for PvP and PvE and yet it locks Revs to run same skills in PvE and PvP. Take any class and weapon set, and utilities they choose for PvP and PvE will usually be different in 80%+ cases.

Turk.5460:

Sure, sounds good.

But no more resetting mist energy to 50% on legend swap. Feel free to add your own version of a trade-off. If this happened and we still retained mist energy reset, it would be ridiculously overpowered.

Wouldnt be, its the same as before. Same Cooldown as explained: You switch from Legend A to B, so A and C get both on cooldown. By energy reseting its no difference at all.

I honestly think the Revenant needs more than this to feel complete. They are lacking in two major things – number of skills available (period, not just at one time), and infexibility of their weapon and utility skills in general.

In short, their game-play is far too railroaded, with too little ability to customize granted to the player. They need more weapon/utility skills AND more flexiblility between the different sets. This could potentially be one of the new features, but it alone wouldn’t make much of a difference.

i will have to agree with this change and it would help a lot for this class but i still think it would be lacking someware. i dont know it its me or what but it feels as if this class is like in a bata form and needs some changes to make it a little more then a just a suport toon. this is just my opinion though and keep the good planing.

Einlanzer.1627:

I honestly think the Revenant needs more than this to feel complete. They are lacking in two major things – number of skills available (period, not just at one time), and infexibility of their weapon and utility skills in general.

I still think that this would solve the main problem (im not talking about bugs): No Skill variations. Yes you would still not be able to choose freely, but 3 legends grant way more choices and possibilities.

Aury.1367:

Einlanzer.1627:

I honestly think the Revenant needs more than this to feel complete. They are lacking in two major things – number of skills available (period, not just at one time), and infexibility of their weapon and utility skills in general.

I still think that this would solve the main problem (im not talking about bugs): No Skill variations. Yes you would still not be able to choose freely, but 3 legends grant way more choices and possibilities.

No, it would mostly only grant the illusion of more choices. The reality is that the revenant is severely railroaded due to the very different function each of their legends and weapons.

A good example of this is a condi revenant. The only functional setup whatsoever is Mallyx/Glint + Mace/Axe. What does opening up a third legend actually give them? Not much, since any legend other than Mallyx/Glint won’t do much good. What they really need is more condi options on their weapons and more hybridized skills, or a feature that modifies their weapon skills somewhat based on their current legend.

I don’t necessarily think giving a third legend is a bad idea just for improving the general gameplay, but there are much more important things that should be done.

Einlanzer.1627:

Aury.1367:

Einlanzer.1627:

I honestly think the Revenant needs more than this to feel complete. They are lacking in two major things – number of skills available (period, not just at one time), and infexibility of their weapon and utility skills in general.

I still think that this would solve the main problem (im not talking about bugs): No Skill variations. Yes you would still not be able to choose freely, but 3 legends grant way more choices and possibilities.

No, it would mostly only grant the illusion of more choices. The reality is that the revenant is severely railroaded due to the very different function each of their legends and weapons.

A good example of this is a condi revenant. The only functional setup whatsoever is Mallyx/Glint + Mace/Axe. What does opening up a third legend actually give them? Not much, since any legend other than Mallyx/Glint won’t do much good. What they really need is more condi options on their weapons and more hybridized skills, or a feature that modifies their weapon skills somewhat based on their current legend.

I don’t necessarily think giving a third legend is a bad idea just for improving the general gameplay, but there are much more important things that should be done.

Many condi revs run shiro instead of glint. So that argument is kinda invalid. Yes Revenant is lacking condition stuff, thats another issue. And still, for example shiro/glint/mallyx would do well with a condi build. Why? You got mallyx for condi stuff, glint for survival and boons and one facet aoe dmg, and then also shiro for escapes/hunting. Since most condi builds use sword/shield + mace/axe, shiro will profit by its heal with UA.

Also for physical builds this would be a huge improvement in choice of skills whilst still not being able to spam them.

Yeah I guess this is the very least thing they could do… but then something as small as this needs to happen asap.

I like this idea and it seems like adding a third swappable legend like that wouldn’t be too complex a change to add. Still need to get all legends available underwater though since we currently just have two.

Problem is that no Dev would read my suggestion makes me super sad

Meh, I don’t see how this actually fixes much.

I mean, the problem is how individually weak the legends are, as a result of the combination of:

• Lack of multi-role support in GW2 (due to item-stats, if you are set up for power DPS and switch to Ventari, you don’t become a healer).
• Double-dipping energy costs/CDs, restricting usage of utility/elite skills significantly.
• Limitations of the ability to use the full power of a legend because you’d need all the corresponding traits (overreliance is death to a role-switcher).
• Flat out weak skills which only work as a result of being semi-spammable (see energy costs though).

To work properly, they’d need to dig a bit deeper IMO, though it’s all still relatively simple fixes:

• Changing legends sets you to 0 energy.
• Weapon skills have CDs, skills 4 and 5 of all weapons have a conditional element which generates energy.
• Legends auto-swap stats. That is, if you are in Ventari if your highest stat is not healing power, it’ll “transform” all your highest stat into healing power temporarily. So say I wear Beserker, and I swap to Ventari, my stats are now as if I were wearing Healing / Precision / Ferocity gear. Ofc this is only while I’m in Ventari, but works the other way around, too (Mallix gives Malice, Shiro gives Power, Jalis gives Toughness and Glint gives Concentration).

In essence, Revenants could be the role-switcher their class mechanics seem to imply they were intended as. And it’s not that big a deal to get them there, much detail work as there’d still need to be done. The stat-swapping would really be the big thing to enable this.

And how cool would that be? Be a “full” power DPS and a “full” condi DPS? Or be the DPS who becomes the tank as necessary. Or the healer. The full is in quotation marks because due to runes/sigils you’d still be weaker, but only marginally so. :o

Carighan.6758:

Meh, I don’t see how this actually fixes much.

You need so serve more simple fixes. Adding a 3rd legend slot is way easier than reworking all the legends themselves.

big issue with rev is the lack of compatibility of legends(traits) combined with other legends (traits) they so distinct from one another but they want you to legend swap a lot to refill energy. so you then might lose the utility’s that went well with the weapon you was using.

I think they should just get rid of the legend swap completely put the energy regain mechanic into weapon swap (nearly same cd) and just let you mix and match utilitys based on the legend trait lines you have picked.

ventari would be an issues because of tablet utility’s but their would be a way around it I guess.

@carighan. Wouldn’t fix it. If I’m full zerker, I swap to Ventari for projectile negation in fotm. Mallyx for boon strip or condi control sometimes. Jallis for bonus hammer dps. Even herald is used in basically every build. What stat would that be? Same applies to pvp. Under your idea, I’d still have a sword equipped but suddenly I have no power when I swap to any legend besides shiro. This would be horrible for build diversity. Best case scenario dire, nomads or pvt could work but you would be forced to bring mace and sword main hands with mallyx and shiro. While pve ppl are forced to camp one legend. Any amulet or stat that has “purity of purpose” would suck for rev.

I think the easiest fix is to buff the offhands. Sword needs a better spike power dps on 4 and 5. Especially the sword counter attack should have like a 2-3 coefficient minimum. Axe needs burning on 4 so that a mace 2 burn build can work. Trait reworks would be nice but buffs to those are what matter more. Once a new elite spec comes out then what? Everyone talks about short bow but without herald shield what happens in pvp? Use the offhands that do less dps than auto attacks? Trait re works by comparison would be significantly harder to balance.

Edit: maybe bonus stats the way conjure weapons do things could work. Bonus 180 power and ferocity while in shiro. Bonus 180 condition dmg and duration while in mallyx. Bonus 180 healing power and 10% outgoing heal.

Aury.1367:

Just a shower-thought I had, I’m sure it would fix alot of revs problems with its lacking ability to pick different utilities instead of the given ones by invoking:

Elementalist can switch between 4 elements but afaik switches mostly between 2 elements. In extreme situations the other 2 elements might come in handy.

So why not do the same for Revenant:

• Instead of 2 legends, we get 3 legends to play with at the same time
• No need to get free utility choices
• probably still switching between 2 legends (glint and shiro for example while jalis could be used against too much pressure)
• this would also solve the energy/cooldown dilemma

Yes Elementalist cant switch weapons. But if you calculate the skillchoices elementalist has, with the one Revenant has, its quite similar after this possible fix:

Elementalist:
4×5 Weapon skills
1×5 Utilities (choose-able!)

Revenant:
2×5 Weapon skills
3×5 Utilites (not changeable individually, only through legend-change)

In my head, the difference between the two utility-bars is balanced since Elementalist can use every Utility with every element, so theyre able to individualice them. Revenant on the other hand can only individualice all 5 together and maybe has a few he wont ever need. Therefor Revenant can use more utilities just like Ele on weapon (If the energy-usage stay the same, theres no spam possibleby swapping legends, wouldnt be different to its actual situation).

The cooldowns:
We have 9 seconds CD on legends right now. If we have 3 legends (Glint, Jalis, Shiro), and youre on Glint for example and want to switch to Jalis:
Glint is on 9 sec CD and Shiro is on 9 sec CD, youre on Jalis. So the inactive legend gets a cooldown aswell (unlike switching elements on Elementalist).

What do you guys think?

the adition of 1 more legend to the rota would be interesting but first you would have to take the energy cost from weapons to balance out the cost vs abilities that have it and buff other legends so they are actually worth swaping to like shiro :/

zealex.9410:

the adition of 1 more legend to the rota would be interesting but first you would have to take the energy cost from weapons to balance out the cost vs abilities that have it and buff other legends so they are actually worth swaping to like shiro :/

Actually theres no need for that anymore. You could go hammer backline rev for example with Glint and Shiro and have mallyx in case you get condi bombed. Or Jalis for extra defense. Ofc ventari will be useless for that build but hey its not different from traits: not everything suits your build

I think having access to all legends must come at a more significant price, even if it fixes problems.

For instance, you touched on the fact that Ele has only one weapon; I would also think that if Revenant were to be having access to any legend of their choosing, such a significant drawback would also be necessary, though at the moment, I don’t think all access legends is a good idea for another reason:

In addition, I would think that access to all legends would be too close to the concept of Ele as a class. First and foremost, the class concepts must be preserved, or people just recognize things as different in name only instead of gameplay differences. Access to all legends simply makes Revenant an Ele where they choose hotbar skills instead of weapon skills.

Personally, I think the answer is to grant more powerful effects within the legends; this ensures class concept, as well as maintaining some intended drawbacks to the class and finally, some compelling reasons to choose more diverse legends.

Obtena.7952:

I think having access to all legends must come at a more significant price, even if it fixes problems.

Never said “All legends”, I said 3 legends, thats a 3/5.

I think what I said changes little. Expanding access to legends doesn’t fix what’s wrong with the legend skills or make the idea feel any less like the Ele concept.

Obtena.7952:

I think what I said changes little. Expanding access to legends doesn’t fix what’s wrong with the legend skills or make the idea feel any less like the Ele concept.

I know. But since the adjustment of the legends themselves takes way more time and effort (And we know that Revenant isnt getting one of those), I thought adding a third legendary is like a cheap shortcut version which will outplay the BETA-phased legends.

You can’t make that assumption. You have no idea what takes more time and effort to do. Even if that was true, it wouldn’t make your idea any better or worse. The problems would still exist. I would rather have Anet fix the problems, if they even agree there is one.

I guess you missed the part where eles only use 2 attunements for dps, and only 1 when healing. Sure, there is situational use for attunements that aren’t part of your rotation, but that is hardly what defines the class or what makes it viable.

Adding 3rd legend isn’t a fix, if anything it will break the class even more. The legends already have no synergy between them whatsoever, and the only reason you use more than one is the energy reset, and that 2nd legend you pick is always Glint.
Revs have to be changed to not rely on swapping legends so much, or legends have to be changed to not have strict roles.

Ozzrel.9825:

I guess you missed the part where eles only use 2 attunements for dps, and only 1 when healing. Sure, there is situational use for attunements that aren’t part of your rotation, but that is hardly what defines the class or what makes it viable.

Yes, 2 make them viable, 1 is supportive while the last is “useless”. Ok. But you STILL have the opportunity to switch to the other 2. Revenant has 2 only, which makes the class extremly clunky since you cant switch to a third if the situation demands it.

I’ve had similar ideas about Rev. What I would do for rev from a class design standpoint is the following:

• Remove energy cost on all weapon skills. It doesn’t make sense to have your weapon skills be gated behind 2 cooldown mechanics, 1 individual to each skill and 1 global mechanic that is shared by all of your skills. To compensate, when swapping legends you probably will only get refilled to 30 energy (maybe, this number would need to be balanced ofc).

• Give Rev access to 3 legends at a time instead of 2 (again, this factors into an appropriate number for how much energy you start with when you swap legends)

• Give Revs only 1 weapon.

• Have weapon skills be customized depending on your legend, the same way that Ele weapon skills are different based on what attunement you are in. This makes Rev similar to Ele, but since Rev will also be able to swap their utility skills, as well as have the energy cost for utility skills, they would still be fairly unique.

All of this would make playing rev substantially more enjoyable to me, but right now the class is just a chore and I was glad when I maxed herald and could stop playing it completely.

Turk.5460:

Sure, sounds good.

But no more resetting mist energy to 50% on legend swap. Feel free to add your own version of a trade-off. If this happened and we still retained mist energy reset, it would be ridiculously overpowered.

Mist energy reset is stupid imo… mist energy should be regained from active play such as successfully evading or blocking or pulling off some kind of combo.

Xenon.4537:

Turk.5460:

Sure, sounds good.

But no more resetting mist energy to 50% on legend swap. Feel free to add your own version of a trade-off. If this happened and we still retained mist energy reset, it would be ridiculously overpowered.

Mist energy reset is stupid imo… mist energy should be regained from active play such as successfully evading or blocking or pulling off some kind of combo.

I have occasionally heard arguments that auto-attacks should regenerate energy, but this seems very passive and not much different than just increasing the base energy regen rate (or decreasing the energy cost of skills).

I can come up with a couple of interesting active options for increasing energy regen as an alternative to legend swapping:

1) A new F-skill which is channeled to increase energy. This can also have different additional effects based on your active legend, or have traits to influence it. E.g. when in Ventari stance, the channel can heal you while recovering energy. While in Shiro stance, it can recover endurance and energy at the same time. In Jalis stance, it can recover energy while decreasing the damage that you take. There could be an Invocation trait that causes it to regen energy a little bit faster, for example.

2) A new F-skill which can be toggled on and off. When it’s on, auto-attacks recover additional energy, but your outgoing damage, condition damage, and healing is reduced.

3) Energy regeneration could be added to the heal skills. For example, heal skills with 30 second cooldown could recover 50 energy. Ventari heal skill could recover 5 energy (or simply cost no energy). This would force decision-making in using heal skills in that you could choose to use them to recover your health or to boost your energy. Ultimately this would lead to a net loss of energy compared to the current system where we burn energy down to near zero then swap legends every 10 seconds. This could be corrected by decreasing the heal skill cooldowns (.g. to 20 seconds) and nerfing the heals a little bit, or by decreasing the energy cost of skills.

fluidmonolith.3584:

snip

Or you could skip all of that and look back at GW1 skills for inspiration.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Energy_management

They had countless ways of manipulating energy that rewarded smart gameplay instead of passive boring gameplay. I’ve made threads over a year ago addressing this but no one really listened. Back then they were so hyped for a new class they were blind to the fundamental flaws that existed from the very beginning…

I think doing something like that would be too complicated. Just removing energy cost from weapons (seriously, it doesn’t make sense for a single class in GW2 to have 2 cooldown mechanics on its weapon skills) and then re-balancing both the energy cost of utility skills and the energy recharge rate should be enough. Then maybe a new trait or two that give you some energy when you land a critical hit, or when you achieve some other condition, to help you maintain higher energy levels and use your utility skills more often

The bigger issue with energy is the slow regen and the reset on legend swap, not the weapon skill costs. It forces you to switch to legends that are completely unsuited for your build.
You could address both issues at the same time though, tying energy generation to weapon skills (2-5) and removing energy reset on swap. That will move rev away from auto attacking and will make sure every skill has a use.

OriOri.8724:

I think doing something like that would be too complicated. Just removing energy cost from weapons (seriously, it doesn’t make sense for a single class in GW2 to have 2 cooldown mechanics on its weapon skills) and then re-balancing both the energy cost of utility skills and the energy recharge rate should be enough. Then maybe a new trait or two that give you some energy when you land a critical hit, or when you achieve some other condition, to help you maintain higher energy levels and use your utility skills more often

exactly. Look how Warrior gains its energy, tons of traits involving in adding it on a special trigger. Now check Revenant. The only traits here are “if more than 50, if less”-blabla. Nothing is producing it.

OriOri.8724:

I’ve had similar ideas about Rev. What I would do for rev from a class design standpoint is the following:

• Remove energy cost on all weapon skills. It doesn’t make sense to have your weapon skills be gated behind 2 cooldown mechanics, 1 individual to each skill and 1 global mechanic that is shared by all of your skills. To compensate, when swapping legends you probably will only get refilled to 30 energy (maybe, this number would need to be balanced ofc).

• Give Rev access to 3 legends at a time instead of 2 (again, this factors into an appropriate number for how much energy you start with when you swap legends)

• Give Revs only 1 weapon.

• Have weapon skills be customized depending on your legend, the same way that Ele weapon skills are different based on what attunement you are in. This makes Rev similar to Ele, but since Rev will also be able to swap their utility skills, as well as have the energy cost for utility skills, they would still be fairly unique.

All of this would make playing rev substantially more enjoyable to me, but right now the class is just a chore and I was glad when I maxed herald and could stop playing it completely.

The weapon energy removal sounds good since we got high CDs anyway already. If then utilities get adjusted and theres no reset on invoking we need traits/weapon skills producing energy. But it sounds WAY more variable and interesting and WAY less boring in comparison to Revenants situation right now.

They could start by giving each legend a F2 skill.

How would that be anything but powercreep though? It would add new functionality to each legend sure, but it would do absolutely nothing to address any of the design issues with the class itself.

serow.6524:

They could start by giving each legend a F2 skill.

Or giving Herald a unique mechanic which isn’t as boring and lame as Facet of Nature.

Carighan.6758:

serow.6524:

They could start by giving each legend a F2 skill.

Or giving Herald a unique mechanic which isn’t as boring and lame as Facet of Nature.

It perfectly suits Herald. But the other legends need sth else.

Aury.1367:

Carighan.6758:

serow.6524:

They could start by giving each legend a F2 skill.

Or giving Herald a unique mechanic which isn’t as boring and lame as Facet of Nature.

It perfectly suits Herald. But the other legends need sth else.

Agreeing on this one and agreeing on the topic.
Every legend would still need a way to apply stab or a stunbreak to make invocation not mandatory.