Assassin's Annahilation needs to go

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Does it not bother people that there is a trait that (with Focused Siphoning) puts out as much heal per second as the signet heal for warriors. Especially on a class that has access to perma regen, AND already has 2 heals?

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

Um.. no? To heal you have to stay in melee and attack. So unless you find someone dumb enough its effectiveness is not even close to HS. For me it doesnt even make a difference in pvp as its unnoticeable and i pick up +20% damage trait instead.

Also you might take a look at hp/s of rev with Shiro/Jalis and compare it to HS.

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Posted by: LucianDK.8615

LucianDK.8615

Also AA only works from behind and the sides, junk for reliable heal. You give up too damage by not taking the swift termination trait.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Um.. no? To heal you have to stay in melee and attack. So unless you find someone dumb enough its effectiveness is not even close to HS. For me it doesnt even make a difference in pvp as its unnoticeable and i pick up +20% damage trait instead.

Also you might take a look at hp/s of rev with Shiro/Jalis and compare it to HS.

Current meta is double melee. And this trait is better than the the 20% damage trait. Reliably hitting people with this trait will put out more damage than the 20% modifier for those at 50% health. An UA that would hit for around 10k damage gets a 2000 boost in damage and goes on a 15 second cooldown, or one could just hit the enemy at least six times in that same 15 second span. You have a huge leeway in time to make equivalent dps.

Versus necros, druids, scrappers, (e.g most of meta) you wont kill them with a single UA and they wont spend the majority of time under 50% health.

So yes, if you reliably attack you have the health benefit of HS and the damage increase of the other grandmaster trait. Rev is a teamfighter and this trait gives too much to people with the skill to proc it.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Also AA only works from behind and the sides, junk for reliable heal. You give up too damage by not taking the swift termination trait.

Your assertion doesn’t hold up mathematically. Take any trait with x cooldown, give your model max power and crit damage, as well as 100% crit chance. You will always be able to deal equal damage with AA in less time than the the cooldown of x skill.

The meta build is double melee. It is extremely easy to proc this trait. And even if you cant proc the trait every second the fact that ST is at 50% means that statistically even 3 seconds of hitting are about the same as the ST trait (as when an attack like UA begins the target is above 50%)

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

The skill to proc it? There’s only so much you can do about it since it depends on hitting your opponent at the sides/back.
Actually, assuming you land all 5 UA hits at the side against a target at less than 50% health, Swift Termination will increase damage per swing by 20% while Assassin’s Annihilation will proc about twice (it has a 1s ICD, so correct me if I’m wrong, but since UA takes 2 seconds to finish, you’ll only proc it 2 times at best), dealing a whopping ~400 damage and healing ~600 versus ST’s +2000 damage.

The only time Annihilation is better is if you’re flanking constantly, which isn’t really that super consistent. It’s a good trait, but it’s reliant on flanking and constant attacks, otherwise Swift Termination will overtake it, especially if you’re playing with Zerker and want to get quick kills.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

The skill to proc it? There’s only so much you can do about it since it depends on hitting your opponent at the sides/back.
Actually, assuming you land all 5 UA hits at the side against a target at less than 50% health, Swift Termination will increase damage per swing by 20% while Assassin’s Annihilation will proc about twice (it has a 1s ICD, so correct me if I’m wrong, but since UA takes 2 seconds to finish, you’ll only proc it 2 times at best), dealing a whopping ~400 damage and healing ~600 versus ST’s +2000 damage.

The only time Annihilation is better is if you’re flanking constantly, which isn’t really that super consistent. It’s a good trait, but it’s reliant on flanking and constant attacks, otherwise Swift Termination will overtake it, especially if you’re playing with Zerker and want to get quick kills.

UA has a 15 second cooldown. All you have to do is proc AA 6 times over those 15 seconds to get the same effect. And if you manage to proc the trait more than 6 times its even better than the best situation for ST. After all ST is only for when the target is at 50% or less heath. The worst situation for ST is when you use a skill that multi hits and it takes the character under 50% health. Like if UA did from 15k to 5k only 1 hit qualifies for the threshold based increased, while 2 hits qualify for the damage from AA.

Also the definition of the side in gw2 is subpar. You would expect that it is impossible to proc the trait while face to face with your enemy. But all cleaving weapons hit in an arc, and the “front” of the enemy is not a 180 arc, the slightest shifts in movement count as flanking. Whirl finishers count as flanking. Attacks that go through a character can be flanking. Aoe pulses can be flanking.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

The skill to proc it? There’s only so much you can do about it since it depends on hitting your opponent at the sides/back.
Actually, assuming you land all 5 UA hits at the side against a target at less than 50% health, Swift Termination will increase damage per swing by 20% while Assassin’s Annihilation will proc about twice (it has a 1s ICD, so correct me if I’m wrong, but since UA takes 2 seconds to finish, you’ll only proc it 2 times at best), dealing a whopping ~400 damage and healing ~600 versus ST’s +2000 damage.

The only time Annihilation is better is if you’re flanking constantly, which isn’t really that super consistent. It’s a good trait, but it’s reliant on flanking and constant attacks, otherwise Swift Termination will overtake it, especially if you’re playing with Zerker and want to get quick kills.

UA has a 15 second cooldown. All you have to do is proc AA 6 times over those 15 seconds to get the same effect. And if you manage to proc the trait more than 6 times its even better than the best situation for ST. After all ST is only for when the target is at 50% or less heath. The worst situation for ST is when you use a skill that multi hits and it takes the character under 50% health. Like if UA did from 15k to 5k only 1 hit qualifies for the threshold based increased, while 2 hits qualify for the damage from AA.

Also the definition of the side in gw2 is subpar. You would expect that it is impossible to proc the trait while face to face with your enemy. But all cleaving weapons hit in an arc, and the “front” of the enemy is not a 180 arc, the slightest shifts in movement count as flanking. Whirl finishers count as flanking. Attacks that go through a character can be flanking. Aoe pulses can be flanking.

UA consistently only procs AA once , so yea. While the “side” in Gw2 is pretty generous, it’s not a 100% chance. It’s very likely that this trait will not proc as many times as you need it to during a fight to out-do or equal ST.

In fact, I just did a test. ASSUMING every single auto attack was from the side/back, which is actually rather unlikely in a real fight, AA will out-do ST against a full health Golem by a whopping….~36 DPS.
It might as well not even have a difference, really.

So, if we’re going to assume you always land AA procs, it’s safe to say that AA is marginally better! Of course, in a real fight, you’re not always going to land these procs, and if you miss even a few of them, ST overtakes it in damage.
Yes, AA also heals, but ST works well regardless of the skill used and deals more damage overall with the use stronger attacks (20% of 3k > 371 which is the number I had for AA).

Does this really mean it’s OP? Eh. It’s a strong trait for sure, but since it’s conditional, dependent on constant pressure, and has a 1s ICD (which means if you have Quickness, ST is miles better), I think it’s pretty fair.

(edited by Malchior.5732)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

The skill to proc it? There’s only so much you can do about it since it depends on hitting your opponent at the sides/back.
Actually, assuming you land all 5 UA hits at the side against a target at less than 50% health, Swift Termination will increase damage per swing by 20% while Assassin’s Annihilation will proc about twice (it has a 1s ICD, so correct me if I’m wrong, but since UA takes 2 seconds to finish, you’ll only proc it 2 times at best), dealing a whopping ~400 damage and healing ~600 versus ST’s +2000 damage.

The only time Annihilation is better is if you’re flanking constantly, which isn’t really that super consistent. It’s a good trait, but it’s reliant on flanking and constant attacks, otherwise Swift Termination will overtake it, especially if you’re playing with Zerker and want to get quick kills.

UA has a 15 second cooldown. All you have to do is proc AA 6 times over those 15 seconds to get the same effect. And if you manage to proc the trait more than 6 times its even better than the best situation for ST. After all ST is only for when the target is at 50% or less heath. The worst situation for ST is when you use a skill that multi hits and it takes the character under 50% health. Like if UA did from 15k to 5k only 1 hit qualifies for the threshold based increased, while 2 hits qualify for the damage from AA.

Also the definition of the side in gw2 is subpar. You would expect that it is impossible to proc the trait while face to face with your enemy. But all cleaving weapons hit in an arc, and the “front” of the enemy is not a 180 arc, the slightest shifts in movement count as flanking. Whirl finishers count as flanking. Attacks that go through a character can be flanking. Aoe pulses can be flanking.

UA consistently only procs AA once , so yea. While the “side” in Gw2 is pretty generous, it’s not a 100% chance. It’s very likely that this trait will not proc as many times as you need it to during a fight to out-do or equal ST.

In fact, I just did a test. ASSUMING every single auto attack was from the side/back, which is actually rather unlikely in a real fight, AA will out-do ST against a full health Golem by a whopping….~36 DPS.
It might as well not even have a difference, really.

So, if we’re going to assume you always land AA procs, it’s safe to say that AA is marginally better! Of course, in a real fight, you’re not always going to land these procs, and if you miss even a few of them, ST overtakes it in damage.
Yes, AA also heals, but ST works well regardless of the skill used and deals more damage overall with the use stronger attacks (20% of 3k > 371 which is the number I had for AA).

Does this really mean it’s OP? Eh. It’s a strong trait for sure, but since it’s conditional, dependent on constant pressure, and has a 1s ICD (which means if you have Quickness, ST is miles better), I think it’s pretty fair.

I’m confused how you set up your test.

At least for sword, AA and ST are equivalent for autoattacks over time, as we only have quickness at most 50% of the time.

Ill show you my math and perhaps you can show me yours.

This is on the invuln golem. Maurder’s amulet. 710 total ferocity from amulet and traits (197.33 crit damage). 94% crit chance. An average of 10 stacks of vuln. An average of 11 stacks of might. Autoattack chains do around 6300 damage with a 1113 increase from AA, or a 1260 increase from ST . You could do a 7072 crit with UA and ST for a 1414.14 damage increase, which is equal to around 4 hits of AA. UA has a deficit of 2 AA hits, as the attack itself will proc at least 2 AAs. You could do a 5597 crit with precision strike for a 1119.4 increase with ST or about 3 hits of AA, with a deficit of 2 as one can proc AA with precision strike. This means that if 4 AA procs are on targets above 50% the traits are equal overtime for the purposes of sword bursts.

So in a sustain scenario, which is most of the current meta, there becomes little reason to take ST, as AA provides superior heal over time, at levels comparable to HS. And its damage is equal or better over time in our current meta.

It is okay to have a two traits serving different purposes. ST is much better suited to bursts, while AA comes out ahead in sustain. AA is better for low crit/ferocity builds.

This still doesnt explain why the healing is so freaking large.

The damage and healing for that trait alone (even without including Focused Siphoning) are larger than the blood magic approach of the traits Vampiric and Vampiric Presence. Because unless the necro can hit more than 4 times a second, or uses minions, they wont heal/damage more than AA.

When adding in the grandmaster minor Focused Siphoning, AA heals more than HS while you are attacking, and still allows you to have another 2 dedicated heals. Revenant can have perma regeneration, 130 health per second. So even adrenal health on warrior cannot produce a scenario where the regen from AA is inferior. Lets not even discuss the perma regen options on warrior because we are talking about dps overall, and a warrior going for those options reduces their dps. Also infused light from herald is the exact same heal as defiant stance. Revenants can now have two warrior heals at once.

So class balance time. Lets place necro, warrior, and revenant in the exact same situation, attacking with a melee weapon while flanking.

Is there any way to justify revenants regen during that time, in comparison to the other classes?

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Posted by: XxsdgxX.8109

XxsdgxX.8109

Rofl wow… works 25% of the time, far from being strong.

Stella Truth Seeker

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Rofl wow… works 25% of the time, far from being strong.

Can you actually prove that it works 25% of the time? Because if it even works 25% of the time this is troublesome. Compare it yourself versus the other classes.

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Posted by: Infusion.7149

Infusion.7149

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin's_Annihilation

It already has a 1 second cooldown and scales moderately with healing power , on top of the condition of having to hit from the side/back.

If you proposed a minor balance change such as lowering the healing slightly to below the damage levels, making the base heal lower, or a larger change (that would likely destroy it) such as having it only apply to energy attacks rather than auto-attacks, I could understand.

“It needs to go” is simply not going to happen. Sensationalist threads are unlikely to be looked at.

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(edited by Infusion.7149)

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

I’m confused how you set up your test.

At least for sword, AA and ST are equivalent for autoattacks over time, as we only have quickness at most 50% of the time.

Ill show you my math and perhaps you can show me yours.

This is on the invuln golem. Maurder’s amulet. 710 total ferocity from amulet and traits (197.33 crit damage). 94% crit chance. An average of 10 stacks of vuln. An average of 11 stacks of might. Autoattack chains do around 6300 damage with a 1113 increase from AA, or a 1260 increase from ST . You could do a 7072 crit with UA and ST for a 1414.14 damage increase, which is equal to around 4 hits of AA. UA has a deficit of 2 AA hits, as the attack itself will proc at least 2 AAs. You could do a 5597 crit with precision strike for a 1119.4 increase with ST or about 3 hits of AA, with a deficit of 2 as one can proc AA with precision strike. This means that if 4 AA procs are on targets above 50% the traits are equal overtime for the purposes of sword bursts.

So in a sustain scenario, which is most of the current meta, there becomes little reason to take ST, as AA provides superior heal over time, at levels comparable to HS. And its damage is equal or better over time in our current meta.

It is okay to have a two traits serving different purposes. ST is much better suited to bursts, while AA comes out ahead in sustain. AA is better for low crit/ferocity builds.

This still doesnt explain why the healing is so freaking large.

The damage and healing for that trait alone (even without including Focused Siphoning) are larger than the blood magic approach of the traits Vampiric and Vampiric Presence. Because unless the necro can hit more than 4 times a second, or uses minions, they wont heal/damage more than AA.

When adding in the grandmaster minor Focused Siphoning, AA heals more than HS while you are attacking, and still allows you to have another 2 dedicated heals. Revenant can have perma regeneration, 130 health per second. So even adrenal health on warrior cannot produce a scenario where the regen from AA is inferior. Lets not even discuss the perma regen options on warrior because we are talking about dps overall, and a warrior going for those options reduces their dps. Also infused light from herald is the exact same heal as defiant stance. Revenants can now have two warrior heals at once.

So class balance time. Lets place necro, warrior, and revenant in the exact same situation, attacking with a melee weapon while flanking.

Is there any way to justify revenants regen during that time, in comparison to the other classes?

I used the generic Ret/Dev/Herald build with Zerker amulet and did nothing but auto-attack with the Fury facet on (realize that most Rev builds in PvP don’t have Roiling Mists, let alone Invocation).

Hence, both ST and AA end up roughly equal in terms of damage.

Now, UA only procced once every time I used it while facing the golem. It’s not consistently proccing AA twice then. We can only assume it procs once per UA on-average then (in which case, ST is far better)

Now then, this entire thread keeps assuming you’re always proccing AA. That simply isn’t true. Missing just a few procs or using Quickness in any form will make ST deal more damage.

But I guess you weren’t complaining about the damage, but rather the healing.
It isn’t even comparable to other classes. Your comparison is disingenuous.

Lets start with Necro:

What does Vampiric Presence say?
_You and your nearby allies siphon health with attacks. _

What does Vampiric say?
_You siphon health with your attacks. Your minions siphon health and give it to you. _

From this text alone, we can see that both these traits affect more than just the Necromancer and they don’t have any conditions attached to them; the Necro (or the minions) land an attack, and that’s it. It’s extra, free healing and damage regardless of what you do and it also affects team mates/minions.
It’s not as strong as AA for good reason.

Now lets move on to Warrior, a class that many claim is currently undertuned and lacks sustain. I’m gonna say again that this comparison is disingenuous. Healing Signet is CONSTANT. The Warrior doesn’t need to maintain any sort of pressure to maintain that healing. The Adrenal regen does require you to build Adrenaline, but it doesn’t require you to do specific things or for you to be hitting every second.

Lets also consider:

Revenant only has one “good” heal truly. That being Infuse Light (the only other decent heal is Empowering Misery, but it’s just a much worse Consume Conditions), which can be gated behind Legend swap. Adding to this, Revenant has FAR less options against Conditions (oh look, HS can also give them Resistance) or CC and MUCH worse ranged options than both Warrior or Necromancer (necessitating good sustain since we’re mostly melee with few/no escapes). Finally, taking AA is technically reducing your DPS. Not by much, but you can’t realistically expect this trait to proc 100% of the time; it simply doesn’t happen. In that case, ST will out-DPS AA, especially considering Quickness.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@Malchior. I think part of the confusion is that you are using the hit box for the inulvnerable golem. What consitutes the front of a character is only about 120 degrees. The larger the character the larger the adjust that needs to be done to get to the side.
You should run your test for AA on a golem that is as wide as your are, something like the small or medium sized golem.

Quickness uptime is not perma. And as I said, as long as you can get in 4 hits of AA while the target is over 50% the damage is around equal over the time that is the cooldown of the sword burst, regardless of whether you make any other hits. I dont see mathematically one has to make 100% uptime.

That being said I agree with you why the necro skill is underpowered, as it is a group buff.

As for the warrior, again I would tell you to redo your tests with smaller hitbox in order to see how easy maintaining this pressure is.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

@Malchior. I think part of the confusion is that you are using the hit box for the inulvnerable golem. What consitutes the front of a character is only about 120 degrees. The larger the character the larger the adjust that needs to be done to get to the side.
You should run your test for AA on a golem that is as wide as your are, something like the small or medium sized golem.

Quickness uptime is not perma. And as I said, as long as you can get in 4 hits of AA while the target is over 50% the damage is around equal over the time that is the cooldown of the sword burst, regardless of whether you make any other hits. I dont see mathematically one has to make 100% uptime.

That being said I agree with you why the necro skill is underpowered, as it is a group buff.

As for the warrior, again I would tell you to redo your tests with smaller hitbox in order to see how easy maintaining this pressure is.

I don’t think you got my point: the trait will not proc this often (aka 100% as you assume) against a real player that can apply counter-pressure. It just wont. It’s inconsistent and dependent entirely on how they turn the character.
It also doesn’t matter if Quickness has 100% up-time or not, just that when you DO have it, it’s inferior.

(edited by Malchior.5732)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@Malchior. I think part of the confusion is that you are using the hit box for the inulvnerable golem. What consitutes the front of a character is only about 120 degrees. The larger the character the larger the adjust that needs to be done to get to the side.
You should run your test for AA on a golem that is as wide as your are, something like the small or medium sized golem.

Quickness uptime is not perma. And as I said, as long as you can get in 4 hits of AA while the target is over 50% the damage is around equal over the time that is the cooldown of the sword burst, regardless of whether you make any other hits. I dont see mathematically one has to make 100% uptime.

That being said I agree with you why the necro skill is underpowered, as it is a group buff.

As for the warrior, again I would tell you to redo your tests with smaller hitbox in order to see how easy maintaining this pressure is.

I don’t think you got my point: the trait will NOT proc this often against a REAL player. It just wont. It’s inconsistent.
It also doesn’t matter if Quickness has 100% up-time or not, just that when you DO have it, it’s inferior.

If you are seriously stating that a person cannot be hit by 4-kittens of auto attack every 15 seconds I am confused. And when you do have quickness its inferior in damage but not in health recovery which matters much more in teamfights considering the damage you will inevitably take while attacking. Almost any death log at higher tiers will have more damage listed than you have actual health. It is a sustain game. And this trait does better in sustain games.

Your argument about real players needs to be described.

What is a “real” player going to do to stop you? Rotate their character in response so they are always facing you? Then gg you just stopped them from attacking your allies. The minute an enemy wastes resources on stopping this trait you are already ahead.

In any instance where your enemy has to take a series of bursts, AA comes out ahead. And the only classes that would instant die to an entire sword burst are not in the meta.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

Your whole argument is based on a single assumption:

Assassin’s Annihilation procs constantly.

This is not consistent. It’s not realistic. It’s not 4 auto-attcks in 15s. That assumes too much.
It’s a good trait. It can be strong, but it’s fine.

If sustain is an issue, you should move your sights over to Shield, which has much more consistent healing abilities and both of its skills equate to SEVERAL AA procs and both skills are much harder to counter than something as simple as turning which can be done with a single key press.

(edited by Malchior.5732)

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

Not only does it not proc constantly, the risk/reward is huge. For a healing skill, where you NEED to heal when you use it, it’s actually undesirable.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Your whole argument is based on a single assumption:

Assassin’s Annihilation procs constantly.

This is not consistent. It’s not realistic. It’s not 4 auto-attcks in 15s. That assumes too much.
It’s a good trait. It can be strong, but it’s fine.

If sustain is an issue, you should move your sights over to Shield, which has much more consistent healing abilities and both of its skills equate to SEVERAL AA procs and both skills are much harder to counter than something as simple as turning which can be done with a single key press.

From what are you basing that it does not proc constantly. Because I assure you that in actual games it does.

What constitues the front of a person is about 120 degrees. The hitbox of a player is small enough that that even VERY minimal rotations will cause the trait to proc.

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

You people have to be seriously bored to come up with these threads. Removing weapon swap, removing traits…

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

You people have to be seriously bored to come up with these threads. Removing weapon swap, removing traits…

Weapon swap is fine. And this trait only needs to altered not removed.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

You people have to be seriously bored to come up with these threads. Removing weapon swap, removing traits…

Weapon swap is fine. And this trait only needs to altered not removed.

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Posted by: Vasdamas Anklast.1607

Vasdamas Anklast.1607

Does it not bother people that there is a trait that (with Focused Siphoning) puts out as much heal per second as the signet heal for warriors. Especially on a class that has access to perma regen, AND already has 2 heals?

You sir need to go out of revenant forums.

Where is the kitten downvote button.

(edited by Vasdamas Anklast.1607)

Assassin's Annahilation needs to go

in Revenant

Posted by: Fade to Black.7042

Fade to Black.7042

Does it not bother people that there is a trait that (with Focused Siphoning) puts out as much heal per second as the signet heal for warriors. Especially on a class that has access to perma regen, AND already has 2 heals?

You need to go.

Assassin's Annahilation needs to go

in Revenant

Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

Does it not bother people that there is a trait that (with Focused Siphoning) puts out as much heal per second as the signet heal for warriors. Especially on a class that has access to perma regen, AND already has 2 heals?

Nope, we operate like necromancers we lack burst and disengage but we have a strong sustain.
Also comparing it to the profession that is known to lack sustain is wrong.
There are also all the other points mentioned already.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari