Guild Wars 2

There has been lately quite a large number of threads discussing about how inefficient core revenant is: except Shiro, the pvp legend, every other is dismissed because they don’t perform well compared to other classes. Not only that, revenant has one of the fewest weapon choices in the game. This has left herald as an autoattack power build that sustains buffs passively. It’s probably the class with the fewest number of meta builds, proving there’s a lack of build diversity.

There has been two major design decisions that have caused the actual situation, in my opinion:
-Devs took into account that Glint would always be a stance choice. That would lower the number of “viable” combinations from 10 to 4. What’s more, Glint right now doesn’t complement every build: provides healing to the group only as regeneration, doesn’t sustain conditions and helps you endure damage with a high-cost “perma-protection” or consuming the facet of light. A low-cost perma-fury favours power builds.
-Revenant and herald were designed without an option to switch weapons (or so I have read) . This was changed afterwards in the beta phase but they didn’t implement it well. Explains why only mace/axe deal conditions or why staff is the one with more possibilities to heal allies (even if nobody would rely on autoattack’s heal orbs, the option is there).

tl;dr: This is a cry for devs to realise what players think of the state of revenant and to act accordingly. This is also a opportunity to make suggestions for a revamp of the revenant class if anyone wants to, not just patches for isolated legends.

Unfortunately, when HoT came close to release, the Dev’s altered their balance paradigm from overly cautious, to actually kitten-backwards. In balancing the elite specs they looked at what they wanted the core specs to do, then nerfed the heck out of the core classes to make the OP Elite skills and traits, more balanced instead of toning back the OP skills and traits in the E-spec.

This was particularly horific for necromancer who was already struggling to be relevant and saw it’s only redeeming traits and skills eviscerated in the name of balancing the perma-frost of reaper. Worse of course, Anet massively nerfed the effectiveness of Chill, which reaper was built around resulting in the whole class losing the only means it had of reducing enemy escapes, which again, it had been balanced around. Kitten-backwards balancing.

We never actually got to see what core Rev would be capable of, as you said, they focused on the elite and balanced the core around the assumption of Herald usage, leaving the core legends largely ineffective without it. So now we have class which is ham-stringed without it’s elite, needing core-class buffs which can’t be given without making Herald too powerful and thanks to herald’s design, it can’t be safely nerfed without breaking the espec and/or making it worthless. The class is trapped in a balance stalemate against itself.

Of course, I don’t expect it could work without Glint (even if I find building a class around herald a horrible design decision, because when they release a new spec the class is gonna go crazy). I just wish they worked on core legends and weapon skills. For example, I feel most traits in Salvation and Retribution to be just number modifiers that aren’t provided by skilled play, just passively. That’s plain boring and the improvement they provide is not very rewarding.

I just feel there’s so much wasted potential in core revenant legends that I am vocal about it and I wish more people were. However, the pvp state of revenant says otherwise (one can wish for a balance that distinguishes between pvp and pve).

Anet hates builds diversity, that means every builds should be gimmick.

This isn’t a very genuine request … or at least it doesn’t recognize the the class concept? How do you think Anet will introduce build diversity when hotbar skills are locked behind legends and weapons? I mean, that’s the whole class concept of the Revenant … and the cost to get that style of play is less diversity. What you are asking for is completely out of line with how the class is designed.

To me, build diversity means META build diversity. Because in meta, only Glint is acceptable (I’m talking about pve). Core legends aren’t good enough to be meta. They need to be buffed. If all core legends were good enough, you’d see tank, condi or healer heralds.

My demand is not that they change how skills are related to legends and you can choose only two, but that they work some trait lines (salvation i’m looking at you) and weapon skills, buff core legends or even revamp a legend’s design (like they changed Mallyx after beta, but now performs poorly) to create a variety in meta builds for any game mode.

I wish we at least had a second row of utility skills so we could do something and switch it up a bit sometimes. I love my Revenant but it does get rather blah after awhile.

Akeno.4962:

To me, build diversity means META build diversity. Because in meta, only Glint is acceptable (I’m talking about pve). Core legends aren’t good enough to be meta. They need to be buffed. If all core legends were good enough, you’d see tank, condi or healer heralds.

My demand is not that they change how skills are related to legends and you can choose only two, but that they work some trait lines (salvation i’m looking at you) and weapon skills, buff core legends or even revamp a legend’s design (like they changed Mallyx after beta, but now performs poorly) to create a variety in meta builds for any game mode.

I don’t see how that would work, irregardless of class because in that sense, Meta is just the optimal build for the situation. I mean, Meta build diversity … what does that even look like? Is there any class in this game where Meta build diversity exists?

As far as i know, each class has an optimal setup and rotation for whatever content you want to do. It’s not like I can choose one of a few builds, get whatever kind of gameplay I want AND be the optimal performance … that’s a fallacy in this game, just by the way it’s designed.

Obtena.7952:

Akeno.4962:

To me, build diversity means META build diversity. Because in meta, only Glint is acceptable (I’m talking about pve). Core legends aren’t good enough to be meta. They need to be buffed. If all core legends were good enough, you’d see tank, condi or healer heralds.

My demand is not that they change how skills are related to legends and you can choose only two, but that they work some trait lines (salvation i’m looking at you) and weapon skills, buff core legends or even revamp a legend’s design (like they changed Mallyx after beta, but now performs poorly) to create a variety in meta builds for any game mode.

I don’t see how that would work, irregardless of class because in that sense, Meta is just the optimal build for the situation. I mean, Meta build diversity … what does that even look like? Is there any class in this game where Meta build diversity exists?

As far as i know, each class has an optimal setup and rotation for whatever content you want to do. It’s not like I can choose one of a few builds, get whatever kind of gameplay I want AND be the optimal performance … that’s a fallacy in this game, just by the way it’s designed.

I think what is meant here, is that there ought to be a build that can be used in any given situation without herald, and not be trash.

Going pvp? Herald, and Shiro or Mallyx depending on wetter of not your using conditions.

Going wvw? Herald and Shiro or Mallyx. Potentially Jalis, if you front line, and want to spam it’s elite skill.

Going Fractals? Herald, Shiro.

Going Raid? Herald, Jalis. And even here, Jalis is only taken because the hammers add a small (very very small) dps boost, and the Chrono is giving you quickenss, so no Shiro needed.

So what we want out of Rev are just a few bullet points.

-Pve, (open world, fractal, and raid) viable conditions specs that can make use of mallyx.

-Pvp, viable bruiser and bunker builds that use Jalis.

-WvW Rev isn’t really in a bad state, but the changes needed in the other two game modes, would seriously benifit build diversity here in unpredictable ways.

-Core Rev builds at all. I understand that the class was released at the same time as herald. And that’s a shame.

What needs to be done?

Glint stance needs a minor nerf. (What exactly I don’t know, but it would be useful if only to encourage the community to make core Rev builds for a few months.)

Jalis needs and overhaul. I proposed how to do this in the ‘Jalis in SPvP’ thread.

Ventari, cool as it is, is completely one dimensional. A simple solution here: make the utilities do some other effect when the tablet is not spawned. Give a non-dedicated healer a reason to take this legend. Falure to do so, means only raid healer revs (which we don’t even want in their current state.) Or WvW backliners (which are uncommon) will ever use it. Give spvpers, and non-raiding pvers, a reason to use it.

Create cross legend synergy in traits inside core rev.

It’s a laundry list to be sure. But all of it is needed. This is not a list of buffs. It’s a list of development changes needed to get the class out of beta.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Obtena.7952:

Akeno.4962:

To me, build diversity means META build diversity. Because in meta, only Glint is acceptable (I’m talking about pve). Core legends aren’t good enough to be meta. They need to be buffed. If all core legends were good enough, you’d see tank, condi or healer heralds.

My demand is not that they change how skills are related to legends and you can choose only two, but that they work some trait lines (salvation i’m looking at you) and weapon skills, buff core legends or even revamp a legend’s design (like they changed Mallyx after beta, but now performs poorly) to create a variety in meta builds for any game mode.

I don’t see how that would work, irregardless of class because in that sense, Meta is just the optimal build for the situation. I mean, Meta build diversity … what does that even look like? Is there any class in this game where Meta build diversity exists?

As far as i know, each class has an optimal setup and rotation for whatever content you want to do. It’s not like I can choose one of a few builds, get whatever kind of gameplay I want AND be the optimal performance … that’s a fallacy in this game, just by the way it’s designed.

I think what is meant here, is that there ought to be a build that can be used in any given situation without herald, and not be trash.

Going pvp? Herald, and Shiro or Mallyx depending on wetter of not your using conditions.

Going wvw? Herald and Shiro or Mallyx. Potentially Jalis, if you front line, and want to spam it’s elite skill.

Going Fractals? Herald, Shiro.

Going Raid? Herald, Jalis. And even here, Jalis is only taken because the hammers add a small (very very small) dps boost, and the Chrono is giving you quickenss, so no Shiro needed.

So what we want out of Rev are just a few bullet points.

-Pve, (open world, fractal, and raid) viable conditions specs that can make use of mallyx.

-Pvp, viable bruiser and bunker builds that use Jalis.

-WvW Rev isn’t really in a bad state, but the changes needed in the other two game modes, would seriously benifit build diversity here in unpredictable ways.

-Core Rev builds at all. I understand that the class was released at the same time as herald. And that’s a shame.

What needs to be done?

Glint stance needs a minor nerf. (What exactly I don’t know, but it would be useful if only to encourage the community to make core Rev builds for a few months.)

Jalis needs and overhaul. I proposed how to do this in the ‘Jalis in SPvP’ thread.

Ventari, cool as it is, is completely one dimensional. A simple solution here: make the utilities do some other effect when the tablet is not spawned. Give a non-dedicated healer a reason to take this legend. Falure to do so, means only raid healer revs (which we don’t even want in their current state.) Or WvW backliners (which are uncommon) will ever use it. Give spvpers, and non-raiding pvers, a reason to use it.

Create cross legend synergy in traits inside core rev.

It’s a laundry list to be sure. But all of it is needed. This is not a list of buffs. It’s a list of development changes needed to get the class out of beta.

The only nerfs I think Glint needs are to reduce blanket boon uptime (while at the same time, other boonshare-heavy mechanics in other professions should also be looked at; and weak legends in Rev need improvement):
(1) increase the upkeep cost of facets: increase strength to -3, darkness to -3, and light to -2. This way a single Rev will only maintain perma might OR perma fury … not both.
(2) decrease base duration of boons from facet of nature by maybe 25 – 33%

I also definitely agree that Jalis needs an overhaul. Hammers are decent but bugged, RotGD is good but very situational due to the high energy cost, Forced Engagement is a bit underwhelming, and Inspiring Reinforcement is bad in several ways.

I also agree with your thoughts on Ventari completely. It needs to have some use outside of healing. I think another function could be CC. Salvation traitline needs the same treatment.

I agree with your proposed nerfs, other than facet of light. That should stay at 1. Otherwise, golden.

I have seen viable condition builds but ultimately, Rev is a rip off of thief that has one power build at its disposal. I honestly don’t know why they don’t just merge the two classes and Thief would be more fun with legends and more traits. Seriously though and aside from satirical jokes, they have a build diversity issue. Their most effective build is basically a thief. Lots of evades, a few blocks comparable to bandits defense, large gap closers, and lots of damage. Thief and Revenant basically have the same role aside from their boons. Thief dreams of reveant’s access to protection. This game has become league of legends with less build diversity. Basically, players just go to mettabattle and practice the build handed to them like candy with hardly any variation. I don’t even see the point in having multiple skills or a limited skill bar for “Strategy” in a game where diversity is non existent now. Without diversity in build creation the game is basically a wow/LoL copy where I have a limit to how many skills I use rather than a unique game where I have to chose my template appropriately.

Well, what i am trying to say is: the only viable build for a revenant is a power one, with some utterly passive support to the group. And I think it’s a waste of potential of core legends that they are not barely viable.

-Mallyx’s torment and close range mace doesn’t help condition builds in pve.
-Ventari is a high floor skill healer that doesn’t reward players who use it.
-Jallis doesn’t feel tanky enough, with great energy costs and no synergy with any weapon. (Staff and off-hand sword have one block each, hammer is the only long range weapon)

The way I see it you are right, Revenant is stale due to the fact that it’s over reliant on Glint. Pre PT nerf condi rev was the only way to spicen up things for people who rolled Revenant…today even condi rev can’t get by without Glint.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Obtena.7952:

Akeno.4962:

To me, build diversity means META build diversity. Because in meta, only Glint is acceptable (I’m talking about pve). Core legends aren’t good enough to be meta. They need to be buffed. If all core legends were good enough, you’d see tank, condi or healer heralds.

My demand is not that they change how skills are related to legends and you can choose only two, but that they work some trait lines (salvation i’m looking at you) and weapon skills, buff core legends or even revamp a legend’s design (like they changed Mallyx after beta, but now performs poorly) to create a variety in meta builds for any game mode.

I don’t see how that would work, irregardless of class because in that sense, Meta is just the optimal build for the situation. I mean, Meta build diversity … what does that even look like? Is there any class in this game where Meta build diversity exists?

As far as i know, each class has an optimal setup and rotation for whatever content you want to do. It’s not like I can choose one of a few builds, get whatever kind of gameplay I want AND be the optimal performance … that’s a fallacy in this game, just by the way it’s designed.

I think what is meant here, is that there ought to be a build that can be used in any given situation without herald, and not be trash.

OK, but that’s still not diversity … Maybe Mallyx condi build becomes awesome again (personally I think it’s still awesome) … but there is still an optimal build for a given situation.

Maybe it’s a academic point but diversity isn’t the word people are looking for here; this game isn’t designed to give you multiple paths of similar performance for a class; that is a consequence of throwing away the holy trinity. Holy trinity forced game devs to come up with ways that different game mechanics would give similar performance on a class, or the trinity would break down; not enough tanks playing because they suck to play, for example.

We don’t have that … you just do damage and survive. It’s a singular approach to playing the game, so there is no need for the devs to introduce clever mechanics for each class to ‘compete’ in PVE; the game is smartly designed to challenge and conclude those constructs are artificial. The choice of profession itself is the method they have introduced for diversity.

Regardless of WHAT the approach is, Glint, Mallyx, whatever you choose, it’s either the optimal build, or it’s not. If you accept playing not-optimized builds, you have all the diversity you want. So it’s not really lacking diversity, you have lots; It’s the lack of overlap between different build performance.

I don’t know any profession that have valid meta builds with all their trait lines, so only 4 builds because of the Herald it’s ok, compared to the current state of the game. Compared to my guardian I have more viable options on my revenant in PvE.
As weapons they must be match with stances too, you must look at the overall number of skills available in a build, it’s bigger them most of the classes.
If they nerf the Facets what is the purpose of the Rev after that?

Obtena.7952:

BrokenGlass.9356:

Obtena.7952:

Akeno.4962:

To me, build diversity means META build diversity. Because in meta, only Glint is acceptable (I’m talking about pve). Core legends aren’t good enough to be meta. They need to be buffed. If all core legends were good enough, you’d see tank, condi or healer heralds.

My demand is not that they change how skills are related to legends and you can choose only two, but that they work some trait lines (salvation i’m looking at you) and weapon skills, buff core legends or even revamp a legend’s design (like they changed Mallyx after beta, but now performs poorly) to create a variety in meta builds for any game mode.

I don’t see how that would work, irregardless of class because in that sense, Meta is just the optimal build for the situation. I mean, Meta build diversity … what does that even look like? Is there any class in this game where Meta build diversity exists?

As far as i know, each class has an optimal setup and rotation for whatever content you want to do. It’s not like I can choose one of a few builds, get whatever kind of gameplay I want AND be the optimal performance … that’s a fallacy in this game, just by the way it’s designed.

I think what is meant here, is that there ought to be a build that can be used in any given situation without herald, and not be trash.

OK, but that’s still not diversity … Maybe Mallyx condi build becomes awesome again (personally I think it’s still awesome) … but there is still an optimal build for a given situation.

Maybe it’s a academic point but diversity isn’t the word people are looking for here; this game isn’t designed to give you multiple paths of similar performance for a class; that is a consequence of throwing away the holy trinity. Holy trinity forced game devs to come up with ways that different game mechanics would give similar performance on a class, or the trinity would break down; not enough tanks playing because they suck to play, for example.

We don’t have that … you just do damage and survive. It’s a singular approach to playing the game, so there is no need for the devs to introduce clever mechanics for each class to ‘compete’ in PVE; the game is smartly designed to challenge and conclude those constructs are artificial. The choice of profession itself is the method they have introduced for diversity.

Regardless of WHAT the approach is, Glint, Mallyx, whatever you choose, it’s either the optimal build, or it’s not. If you accept playing not-optimized builds, you have all the diversity you want. So it’s not really lacking diversity, you have lots; It’s the lack of overlap between different build performance.

The thing is….Revenant is balanced around the ideea that we will invest in elite spec….if you approach Revenant and chose any path that doesn’t involve Glint or Herald traitline you shot yourself in the knee with an arrow (Skyrim pun).

I don’t see how … if a player is going to choose the BEST build, REGARDLESS of what legend it is, it doesn’t make sense for them to complain about a lack of build diversity.

I have two Rev’s, one is perma Glint, the other is Camping Mallyx and condition damage. Glint is better for damage but the other is more fun to play and has more things I can do with it. If damage is your only measure of performance and you always choose the best DPS, there is no way you are ever going to get diverse builds in GW2; it’s simply not Anet’s goal to provide this to players. I fyou get it , it’s by luck.

Wrong, true balance means there shouldn’t be a best build regardless if players try to force it. Builds should have clear weaknesses and strengths. For example, going full dodge on thief should do reduce damage potential and dodges should be sacrificed for potential damage. This is not how it works currently but it should. Now for Rev. They should also have to chose their source of damage condition or power but should be able to increase their damage as the sacrifice sustain in a significant way. Currently the game is such that no classes except necro has a real trade off. The superior sustain specs have glass cannon damage potential. For example, a DH can last for days with meditations and blocks and then 100- someone instantly with traps. A revenant can dodge and block for days and suddenly 100-0 with a legend/weapon swap to staff and using skill 5.

Sustain should be sacrificed for damage, but it is not and that is what is killing all the builds potentially to be used. If the current builds didn’t last so long any damage build would work as long as you knew how to use it. Similarly as long as you know how to play a bunker effectively and defend properly then you should whittle down the enemy over time with pressure not burst damage like we see now. Let me rehash the issue. Tanks should not deal burst with condition or power

This bruiser meta is the worst as new players are insta dying to many of us vet players and can’t even have a chance at a kill because we are literally immortal verses the new players. AKA, I will not die given infinity time on multiple builds verses new players even if I don’t attack them and in some cases I don’t even have to try very hard. I’m not being arrogant because every vet player knows what I mean. We could just dodge and spam defenses to stale mate a duel verses new players on a glass cannon build. There is clearly an issue with the state of builds and build diversity.

My fear is that the next expansion will include more power creep making a more entrenched system of Immortal builds 100-0ing unsuspecting players in less than 5 seconds noting that surprise at that point may be the only way to take them down.

It’s not wrong for numerous reasons:

1 we don’t have true balance; there are so many instances of unbalanced things, it’s easy to see Anet has different ideas than players
2 we won’t get true balance; if you don’t see the kind of balance you think should be happening after 4 years and numerous balance patches … I think it’s safe to say
3 GW2 won’t ever work the way you say it should; it’s obvious Anet isn’t trying to follow old and tired ideas from other MMO’s.

You shouldn’t fear the next expansion doesn’t include power creep because that would still maintain optimal builds … you SHOULD fear that the next expansion doesn’t add anything to the class. If the class falls behind at expansion, it’s because there isn’t anything new to try.

Rev need more weapon choices and more efficient Jalis and Ventari.

Obtena.7952:

It’s not wrong for numerous reasons:

1 we don’t have true balance; there are so many instances of unbalanced things, it’s easy to see Anet has different ideas than players
2 we won’t get true balance; if you don’t see the kind of balance you think should be happening after 4 years and numerous balance patches … I think it’s safe to say
3 GW2 won’t ever work the way you say it should; it’s obvious Anet isn’t trying to follow old and tired ideas from other MMO’s.

You shouldn’t fear the next expansion doesn’t include power creep because that would still maintain optimal builds … you SHOULD fear that the next expansion doesn’t add anything to the class. If the class falls behind at expansion, it’s because there isn’t anything new to try.

1). Actually, the meta builds are pretty balanced in my opinion for most classes in legendary. But overall True Anet does have different Ideas

2). Your right we wont get true balance.

3). I am speaking out so that the balance team can understand as well as the community. If I say nothing this game sure won’t change.

I was not arguing against these elements, I was arguing against the impossibility of balance. If you played gw1 you would see balanced build diversity. There are allot of options and everything has its trade off. Nothing is god mode because there is so much you can do. In this game there are only two viable types of builds across all classes. It is burst condition/ burst power Tanks aka brusers. There is no interupt build there is no pressure build there is no reflection build. These are things we saw in the older days of GW2 which is why many players hate HoT. It ended variation and tunnel visioned pvp into Tanks bursting players Every build is this way. No meta build does more than have extreme survival and extreme damage. In a way if you play one class you play all classes. The only difference right now is some classes, like Rev, take more concentration to do the same thing DH can do which is basically sustain and damage wise with a bit of button smashing and brain-dead rotations. But they all do the same thing essentially.

Obtena.7952:

What you are asking for is completely out of line with how the class is designed.

I completely disagree. This class is closer to being a jack-of-all-trades like the engi than anything else we’ve seen. Yes, you can’t customize your skill bar, but with the way it’s designed, you don’t need to. When you put a build together with a revenant, you should have in mind exactly what you’re going for. Support focus? DPS focus? Survivability focus? etc. etc. etc. The class has the chance to be one of the most diverse classes in the game, but the way it’s currently been implemented in the balance of the game, it’s a one-trick-pony. Buffs, buffs, buffs!!!

That’s taking my post out of context. So you can disagree, but I advise you understand what you are trying to disagree with me against first.

Class is indeed limited in diversity compared to other classes because of how it’s skills are predetermined by legends. That’s what I’m talking about.

iroh.2871:

Obtena.7952:

What you are asking for is completely out of line with how the class is designed.

I completely disagree. This class is closer to being a jack-of-all-trades like the engi than anything else we’ve seen. Yes, you can’t customize your skill bar, but with the way it’s designed, you don’t need to. When you put a build together with a revenant, you should have in mind exactly what you’re going for. Support focus? DPS focus? Survivability focus? etc. etc. etc. The class has the chance to be one of the most diverse classes in the game, but the way it’s currently been implemented in the balance of the game, it’s a one-trick-pony. Buffs, buffs, buffs!!!

This is exactly what I meant in OP. Having many legends to do any of the roles this game needs, how is that we are pigeonholed into a buffbot? There should be better healers, tanks or condi dps classes than ours, for sure, but there should also be VIABLE builds to take to raids because they provide something useful. (I think the same about engineers) And no other build apart form buffbot – herald is considered good enough to take. So, what need to do is buff legends so that they perform their roles better and also provide something that the party may lack.

Exactly.

Multiple things should be viable. I’m not saying “all builds should be meta”… I am saying that there should be more builds that are almost meta.

I take non meta builds from other classes into raids, and pvp alot. I understand they’re not the best, but I do well with them.

You can take a condition damage elementalist into raids. It’s not the best possible damage. But… it is viable. Hence why it’s not a “meta” build, but it is viable

Rev, does not have this luxury in the way that nearly every other class (other than arguably mesmer) does.

Folk alwayso seem to misunderstand what we’re asking for here.

Give me a reason to use Jalis in pvp.

Give me a reason to use the Hammer.

Give me a way to apply conditions at range.

Ect.

What Rev needs, in my opinion, as I’ve been saying since beta is more skills. Legends are too fixed, each should have 4 or 5 utility skills that match that legends theme to allow you to adapt legends to more situations, this would allow core rev to be more versatile without just overpowering existing skills to do everything.

Often the response to this has been “you can switch legends for more skills you don’t need more choice”, but in practice legend swapping is extremely limited often leading to having skills you don’t need in that situation. It’s not even a valid point when ele and engi can switch their weapon skills with far more diversity and choice than rev skill switching anyway. Even warrior with banner can to some degree.

Speaking of warrior, or any other professions 7,8 and 9 skills;
4 banners
4 physical
4 shouts
4 signets
4 stances
cultural skills

That’s 20+ skills of which you can take any combination. Meanwhile core rev have 12 skills of which you have only 2 choices. This to me is the main problem with rev, add the missing 8 skills spread across the core legends and you add more build diversity and can use those skills to fix the areas that core Rev is lacking in.

Also give us our kitten cultural skills even if just add with cooldowns only!

Dinsy.2491:

What Rev needs, in my opinion, as I’ve been saying since beta is more skills. Legends are too fixed, each should have 4 or 5 utility skills that match that legends theme to allow you to adapt legends to more situations, this would allow core rev to be more versatile without just overpowering existing skills to do everything.

Often the response to this has been “you can switch legends for more skills you don’t need more choice”, but in practice legend swapping is extremely limited often leading to having skills you don’t need in that situation. It’s not even a valid point when ele and engi can switch their weapon skills with far more diversity and choice than rev skill switching anyway. Even warrior with banner can to some degree.

Speaking of warrior, or any other professions 7,8 and 9 skills;
4 banners
4 physical
4 shouts
4 signets
4 stances
cultural skills

That’s 20+ skills of which you can take any combination. Meanwhile core rev have 12 skills of which you have only 2 choices. This to me is the main problem with rev, add the missing 8 skills spread across the core legends and you add more build diversity and can use those skills to fix the areas that core Rev is lacking in.

Also give us our kitten cultural skills even if just add with cooldowns only!

Guard/DH is forced to play medi trapper, so that means players have more useless skills than rev..
And for sure some other classes have same issue.
Legends migh be the way that Anet defined for Revenant to gain skills.

This thread is about Rev issues,lets leave the issues of other classes to their respective forums…..anyone else feel that Ventari isn’t usefull for pre level 80 content?

Aeolus.3615:

Guard/DH is forced to play medi trapper, so that means players have more useless skills than rev..

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here tbh, i’m not overly familiar with the state of guard atm having only played Rev since HoT launched. But even if they only have one viable build, which i highly doubt, that is a temporary balance issue. Balance changes over time but core rev is still going to have a small skill pool with only two choices when it comes to your utilities.

Even once there are more legends, if those legends are also completely fixed rev will remain the least customizable profession when it comes to utility skills. Now that can work, assuming the skills that are there cover everything rev needs but the fact that you are pointing out that other professions have useless skills makes me want more options even more so if a legend’s skill gets nerfed to near useless we could swap it out.

Players are going to min/max when it comes to PvP & PvE raids/dungeons. This isn’t going to change. The only time when people won’t care to min/max is for open world casual PvE content. No matter how many “viable” builds you propose, players will eventually find 1-2 builds that excel at a certain aspect of the game. This is the way it is in MMO’s.

Rev is my primary second class, I’m a necro main. But I love my rev. To me while you have less choices as a rev, the class spells quality over quantity to me. Its skills, utilities, and elites are useful, high impact skills that give you results. They aren’t fluff or gimmick like majority of other choices other classes have. If you want crappy weapons, don’t look further than necros. Ask yourself, why do you use Glint? Isn’t it because it is useful and it’s good? Isn’t the Glint heal one of the best heals in PvP? I’ll trade you 70% of my necro utilities (most of which nobody ever use) for glint access to be honest.

Sometimes it’s hard to see how good you have it, especially when revs have been a part of “meta” in all game modes ever since the class was introduced. Even with all the “build diversity” other classes have access to, many are shun in certain aspects of the game modes. In PvE (which is what op was referring to), if you’re playing casual open world PvE, chances are you are already playing with off-meta builds and you do just fine. There’s plenty of options to choose from. If you raid or do speed dungeon runs, then you likely min/max and run optimal builds for those game modes, just like all other classes do.

I’m not saying more build diversity would hurt. Just that revs have it good, they really do. Revs is all quality over quantity. But if you ever want to feel bad about yourself, check in with eles. You’ll feel all better very quickly.

gavyne.6847:

Just that revs have it good, they really do. Revs is all quality over quantity. But if you ever want to feel bad about yourself, check in with eles. You’ll feel all better very quickly.

As far as I know, even with the uncalled increased CD, eles have 3 builds they can take to raids to dps (Fire staff, FA staff, FA d/w) and I haven´t seen any pug saying no to any of them. And then, they have a healer build, whose problem is not the healing part but that GoL is so OP. To me, that seems, to some extent, build diversity.

There’re different ways of dealing damage in power builds (like ele does), condi builds, healing builds, tank builds. And our niche role is to provide boon duration and boons. That doesn’t seem like any build diversity or any fun to play, considering the potential in core revenant legends.

If we could redesign Retribution and Herald so that Unwavering Avoidance and Enhanced Bulwark be on the same traitline we could increase the number of viable builds…..maybe have Bolster Fortifications swap places with Unwavering Avoidance to increase the viability of Ventari/Jallis builds?

Akeno.4962:

gavyne.6847:

Just that revs have it good, they really do. Revs is all quality over quantity. But if you ever want to feel bad about yourself, check in with eles. You’ll feel all better very quickly.

As far as I know, even with the uncalled increased CD, eles have 3 builds they can take to raids to dps (Fire staff, FA staff, FA d/w) and I haven´t seen any pug saying no to any of them. And then, they have a healer build, whose problem is not the healing part but that GoL is so OP. To me, that seems, to some extent, build diversity.

There’re different ways of dealing damage in power builds (like ele does), condi builds, healing builds, tank builds. And our niche role is to provide boon duration and boons. That doesn’t seem like any build diversity or any fun to play, considering the potential in core revenant legends.

Yeah, ele’s also have way more weapon skills than any other class as well; each weapon is basically 4 with element swapping. They are BOUND to have a significant increase in diverse builds for any category of build you want. In otherwords, diversity is a result of Ele’s class design. If it’s not part of your class design, you aren’t getting it. Obviously Anet isn’t going to introduce the same increase in weapons skills or legends just to satisfy the desire for diversity on other classes. Ele is a great example of how Anet gives you diversity … with class choice.

Obtena.7952:

Akeno.4962:

gavyne.6847:

Just that revs have it good, they really do. Revs is all quality over quantity. But if you ever want to feel bad about yourself, check in with eles. You’ll feel all better very quickly.

As far as I know, even with the uncalled increased CD, eles have 3 builds they can take to raids to dps (Fire staff, FA staff, FA d/w) and I haven´t seen any pug saying no to any of them. And then, they have a healer build, whose problem is not the healing part but that GoL is so OP. To me, that seems, to some extent, build diversity.

There’re different ways of dealing damage in power builds (like ele does), condi builds, healing builds, tank builds. And our niche role is to provide boon duration and boons. That doesn’t seem like any build diversity or any fun to play, considering the potential in core revenant legends.

Yeah, ele’s also have way more weapon skills than any other class as well; each weapon is basically 4 with element swapping. They are BOUND to have a significant increase in diverse builds for any category of build you want. In otherwords, diversity is a result of Ele’s class design. If it’s not part of your class design, you aren’t getting it. Obviously Anet isn’t going to introduce the same increase in weapons skills or legends just to satisfy the desire for diversity on other classes. Ele is a great example of how Anet gives you diversity … with class choice.

Eles have 20 weapon skills with 1 weapon and we have 10 utilities with legend swaping. Despite that we can argue that Revenant has less build diversity than ele because at present date all of Revenant’s strongest builds involve Glint and Herald….which makes Revenant really stale in comparison to ele because of the 10 utilities Revenant can access 5 will always be from Glint regardless of whether you go condi dps or power dps route.

With Guardian on the other hand, with the recent buffs to Sword and Scepter it is possible to ditch traps in favor of Honor traitline for extra tankiness and small increase to utility and traps can be replaced with some shouts or wall of reflection. Furthermore Revenant can’t cover the role of Bunker as opposed to Guardian due to their inability to rely on either Jallis or Ventari for when the going gets tough in pvp.

People are way too hung up on the skills being locked to a legend. That’s just part of the class. If they change that, you’re losing the whole theme of the class: channel “_” legend to get “_” skills. That’s it. It’s the exact same concept as having weapons attached to certain skills… Oh wait…

What you guys are asking for is to change the class’s mechanic entirely. The customizability isn’t the issue here. It’s how impactful those skills are with the traits we currently have. The class just needs a ton of adjustments in its traits, the damage/healing of skills, and it needs more weapon options. Allowing players to pick and choose their skills from different legends would be broken and completely go against the theme of the class.

iroh.2871:

People are way too hung up on the skills being locked to a legend. That’s just part of the class. If they change that, you’re losing the whole theme of the class: channel “_” legend to get “_” skills. That’s it. It’s the exact same concept as having weapons attached to certain skills… Oh wait…

What you guys are asking for is to change the class’s mechanic entirely. The customizability isn’t the issue here. It’s how impactful those skills are with the traits we currently have.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said i wanted utilities out of legends. I say that, with the great diversity in game styles this class could have, it’s a pity that the only build good enough is a passive boonbot.

Revamps of traits, legends, number adjusting, adding more utilities to each legend so we can choose… I don’t care. I just would love ANY herald meta that isn’t based completely in Glint. Because Glint should be a glue that brings the class together.

Jack Skywalker.5674:

Obtena.7952:

Akeno.4962:

gavyne.6847:

Just that revs have it good, they really do. Revs is all quality over quantity. But if you ever want to feel bad about yourself, check in with eles. You’ll feel all better very quickly.

As far as I know, even with the uncalled increased CD, eles have 3 builds they can take to raids to dps (Fire staff, FA staff, FA d/w) and I haven´t seen any pug saying no to any of them. And then, they have a healer build, whose problem is not the healing part but that GoL is so OP. To me, that seems, to some extent, build diversity.

There’re different ways of dealing damage in power builds (like ele does), condi builds, healing builds, tank builds. And our niche role is to provide boon duration and boons. That doesn’t seem like any build diversity or any fun to play, considering the potential in core revenant legends.

Yeah, ele’s also have way more weapon skills than any other class as well; each weapon is basically 4 with element swapping. They are BOUND to have a significant increase in diverse builds for any category of build you want. In otherwords, diversity is a result of Ele’s class design. If it’s not part of your class design, you aren’t getting it. Obviously Anet isn’t going to introduce the same increase in weapons skills or legends just to satisfy the desire for diversity on other classes. Ele is a great example of how Anet gives you diversity … with class choice.

Eles have 20 weapon skills with 1 weapon and we have 10 utilities with legend swaping. Despite that we can argue that Revenant has less build diversity than ele because at present date all of Revenant’s strongest builds involve Glint and Herald….which makes Revenant really stale in comparison to ele because of the 10 utilities Revenant can access 5 will always be from Glint regardless of whether you go condi dps or power dps route.

With Guardian on the other hand, with the recent buffs to Sword and Scepter it is possible to ditch traps in favor of Honor traitline for extra tankiness and small increase to utility and traps can be replaced with some shouts or wall of reflection. Furthermore Revenant can’t cover the role of Bunker as opposed to Guardian due to their inability to rely on either Jallis or Ventari for when the going gets tough in pvp.

OK … I don’t see how that relates to what I said. Rev’s don’t have as many skills as eles. Ele’s have diversity … make the connection. I mean … ANY class has diversity if they have as many skills and ways to mix them as an Ele does. That’s it’s design. That’s not Rev’s design. I’m not arguing Rev’s have or don’t have diversity. I’m saying that just because Ele’s have it, doesn’t relate to Rev’s having or not having it.

Diversity is a class design result. Of all the classes Rev’s have some of the least diversity, for numerous reasons. If it’s not part of the class consideration in the first place, it will be purely by luck and a low chance you do get it. For that to actually change requires so many conditions, I don’t see it happening. People need to choose their class they play wisely, based on what appeals to them if a certain style of play or performance is what they are after.

iroh.2871:

People are way too hung up on the skills being locked to a legend. That’s just part of the class. If they change that, you’re losing the whole theme of the class: channel “_” legend to get “_” skills. That’s it. It’s the exact same concept as having weapons attached to certain skills… Oh wait…

What you guys are asking for is to change the class’s mechanic entirely. The customizability isn’t the issue here. It’s how impactful those skills are with the traits we currently have. The class just needs a ton of adjustments in its traits, the damage/healing of skills, and it needs more weapon options. Allowing players to pick and choose their skills from different legends would be broken and completely go against the theme of the class.

Umm no….what I am asking for at least is for Rev to stop relying so much on Herald…to have combinations of legends that don’t involve Glint also be viable in end game.

Obtena.7952:

Rev’s don’t have as many skills as eles. Ele’s have diversity … make the connection. I mean … ANY class has diversity if they have as many skills and ways to mix them as an Ele does.

The class that’s been running minute variations on the exact same build since beta has diversity?

The point of this thread, as I see it, is that Mallyx, Jalis, Ventari, Corruption, Salvation, Invocation, Mace, Axe, Offhand Sword and Hammer are all F-tier choices that should never even be considered when building for pvp. They’re not merely not as good and therefore only don’t get taken because they’re not optimal; there is simply no way for any of these choices to contribute meaningfully to a build.

Coldtart.4785:

Obtena.7952:

Rev’s don’t have as many skills as eles. Ele’s have diversity … make the connection. I mean … ANY class has diversity if they have as many skills and ways to mix them as an Ele does.

The class that’s been running minute variations on the exact same build since beta has diversity?

The point of this thread, as I see it, is that Mallyx, Jalis, Ventari, Corruption, Salvation, Invocation, Mace, Axe, Offhand Sword and Hammer are all F-tier choices that should never even be considered when building for pvp. They’re not merely not as good and therefore only don’t get taken because they’re not optimal; there is simply no way for any of these choices to contribute meaningfully to a build.

Thats what we want to change for this class!

I just wished that it could be viable to go Centaur and Dwarf.. or the like.. Feels like you need Herald and Assassin, unless you want to kitten yourself…

I love the class though, it just, imo, feels very limited to what you can pick.

Coldtart.4785:

Obtena.7952:

Rev’s don’t have as many skills as eles. Ele’s have diversity … make the connection. I mean … ANY class has diversity if they have as many skills and ways to mix them as an Ele does.

The class that’s been running minute variations on the exact same build since beta has diversity?

The point of this thread, as I see it, is that Mallyx, Jalis, Ventari, Corruption, Salvation, Invocation, Mace, Axe, Offhand Sword and Hammer are all F-tier choices that should never even be considered when building for pvp. They’re not merely not as good and therefore only don’t get taken because they’re not optimal; there is simply no way for any of these choices to contribute meaningfully to a build.

I guess so … I didn’t claim Ele was more diverse, I was just going with the posters claim. I don’t disagree about what you say about the point of the thread. I do disagree that people are going to feel like they are going to get usable builds and diversity given the design of the class. There just isn’t enough combinations of skills and legends present to allow that to happen. Let’s be serious for a second; do you think Anet puts all these skills in for all these classes thinking they are optimal for any game situation to begin with? I think not.

But, without changing that utility skills are tied to legends, they can provide us with skills in many different ways:

-F2 could change depending on the legend you are.
-They could provide more utility skills per legend so that we can choose.
-An idea I’ve posted many times: let certain combinations of legend+weapon change some of your weapon skills (autoattack at least) by choosing a trait (one in each trait line)

And, of course, they can buff skills, decrease energy costs, change traits so that they actually synergize with your skills…

Sigh… I tried so hard not once, but twice and commented in numerous other threads. However, no one seemed interested in solving the true fundamental issues with Revenant as a class.

And now everyone is waking up. The cool-aid wore off and you are all wondering why the class isn’t as fun as you initially thought…

Akeno.4962:

But, without changing that utility skills are tied to legends, they can provide us with skills in many different ways:

-F2 could change depending on the legend you are.
-They could provide more utility skills per legend so that we can choose.
-An idea I’ve posted many times: let certain combinations of legend+weapon change some of your weapon skills (autoattack at least) by choosing a trait (one in each trait line)

And, of course, they can buff skills, decrease energy costs, change traits so that they actually synergize with your skills…

We can think of all kinds of things they can do. That’s not the answer though … the real question is if that’s how Anet does things. You can easily see for yourself it’s not by looking at any other class. There are so many instance of a given class not having optimal build diversity for specific game elements that it’s easy to see. Not only that, but given the relatively low number of weapons and legends, Rev would be the hardest class to implement that for.

PS … hey, maybe you just got your wish … boon duration nerfs inc for Rev on next balance patch. Sometimes people need to be careful what they wish for though.

Simple to say what the should do, buff legends, tweak weapons and traits to more skilled action and give each legend more skills.

Please add a special action skill based on what 2 legends you have equipped.
Using it could cost no energy but put itself and all legend utility skills on a short cooldown.

Some examples.
Mallyx+Shiro = Consume Torment. All conditions are removed and for each condition removed you gain +150 condition damage for an amount of time.
Ventari + Mallyx = Metamorphosis. Break stun and release an area mist that poisons foes and cures conditions on allies.

Obtena.7952:

PS … hey, maybe you just got your wish … boon duration nerfs inc for Rev on next balance patch. Sometimes people need to be careful what they wish for though.

I am trying to advocate build diversity. The death of boonbot rev that may come with the new balance patch due to the mesmer nerf saddens me, even if I don’t think this boon meta should have arrived, because I doubt they are buffing core revenant so its useful in any other raid spot.

Well, i guess I’ll stop with the suggestion posts, given they actually killed revenant.