So if this class is going to get back to having a unique role in sPvP then it needs some minor buffs. Personally I think condi rev is a better bet since Anet isn’t hating on it currently, and also because of the high team utility it has versus condi-heavy teams. I’ve put these in order of my personal priority:
Changes to Embrace the Darkness:
*Reduce the cast time to 1/4s or even make it instacast. It doesn’t deal any direct damage so low cast time wouldn’t be OP. The cast time currently barely makes it worth casting since it interrupts the constant offensive pressure that a condi rev needs to stay alive.
*Reduce its upkeep to -5, just like Facet of Chaos. Idk why it’s -7 for what basically amounts to slightly more torment than the mace AA. The extra stat boost is nice but it’s just not worth the upkeep, I get perma protection from Facet of Chaos at a lower cost. EtD is designed to synergize with Diabolic Inferno but the fact that it takes a bit from the time you activate it to when it takes effect means that the trait’s activation is often evaded or the enemy moves out of range, which is a very small radius.
*Make it give invulnerability to movement-impeding conditions. Immunity to blind is random and not that useful, condi rev doesn’t have high-impact burst skills that you just can’t afford to miss. However, since I want to stay near people to keep hitting them with the torment, movement-impeding conditions are a big problem.
Change the stunbreak to Banish Enchantment. Reason being that pain absorption isn’t always useful if you just use it randomly, and it’s very costly to use. Alternatively the cost of PA could be lowered to 30 to make it a bit less… painful.
Increase range of axe skills to 1200. This would not make axe OP, but it would make condi rev a bit less vulnerable to ranged characters. Axe 4 is a poor man’s phase traversal, but at 900 range it’s a bit hard to pull off unless it’s a noob with his back turned. It’s actually a defensive skill in my mind but again hard to pull off at 900 range. Same with Axe 5, easy for rangers and mesmers to just walk backwards to avoid.
Improve mace AA, especially Manifest Toxin. It just needs to be… better. I’d actually like better direct damage, or at least a power coefficient of .7 or something. Right now it doesn’t take advantage of power from Sage Amulet or Viper Amulet, which is a shame. It’s only useful when somebody is running away, and I don’t think an AA should be specialized for that purpose, generally they’re supposed to put on sustained damage in between bursts from skills on CD.
Lengthen Searing Fissure to 600 range, or increase the width. Not both. This skill is so easily kited that you usually only get one pulse of burning on the target before they accidentally walk out of it. And even worse, if they walk out of it then your mace 3 won’t hit the field and therefore you miss your combo. This ability is great in PvE but severely undertuned for PvP. The only time you’ll get significant damage off of it is if your target is facetanking your damage, which usually backfires on the condi rev.
Side note: I’m not advocating for all of these changes together. I think 1-3 are pretty necessary, 4-5 are extra but would be nice.
I’m not against buffs, but I will say condi rev as a whole needs to have its bugs sorted out before anything.
You could buff searing fissure to the moon and back and it still dont matter if its unreliable jumping or on uneven terrain. I still don’t think anet acknowledges that all of the ground target skills on rev, including elemental blast, CoR, Axe 5, and unyeilding anguish all have the elevation bug.
Then they need to sort out the attacking random terrain bugs, on embrace the darkness and UA so that were actually attacking what we want to be.
Then stuff like your changes could come.
[Cya] TC Roamer/Scout
I Play WvW to have fun. I don’t find it fun anymore. Therefore I don’t play.
Not really sure why that needs to happen first. What you mentioned are small issues, and like I said, searing fissure it easily kited even when it works properly. Wouldn’t make a big difference. And I’ve been using temporal rift without much issue lately, though I have no doubt you’re right about the bug.
Condition builds trend to win fights over time. To win a skirmish over time you need to stay alive for a while, landing hits to stack conditions and slowly eroding the target’s HP.
That’s very hard/impossible to achieve with Rev/Herald after the patch from October 18th, due lacks any reliable access to stability, and a couple of breakstuns will not change it. Also lacks any sort of ranged pressure, which means doing ~0 damage outside mele range, specialy against other classes which can easily disengage and poke at range. Finally, is hard to win as a condition class when yourself devoid of condition cleansing skills.
To notice how much the Rev/Herald lacks as a condition build take a look at the current burn DH/Guardian. The DH has a viable ranged weapon (scepter) which leads Him to put pressure and stack condition damage without having to rest in gap closers (which anyway has); He can earn access a wide array of skills and traits to get stability, stunbreaks or condition cleansing, and configure them to their tastes or the expectations of the match. He can stack condition damage while attacking, blocking and healing, and his only trade off is the lesser mobility.
I wish they could communicate with us exactly where they want the class to sit. Like mentioned in the post above we don’t have the option to build conditions at a range, so you’d think the logic would be that once you got into close combat you’d have an easier time with it than someone who can just stand at a distance doing it. Not so.
I really don’t understand what the actual purpose of the class is and hopefully Anet will communicate this to us. And if they don’t know, which seems somewhat likely, I hope they’ll figure it out and adjust accordingly.
Btw have either of you played Condi rev extensively? I don’t really care to try and convince a ton of people to play it, but it would be nice to have experienced spvp players who have played it with whom I can discuss it.
Most of my fourth season was playing condi Herald; wasn’t as good choice as playing the power variant but was more fun. After the October patch I stopped playing the class because you simply can’t survive the cc, and being tossed like a doll makes you harmless (condi builds rely more in damage over time than in burst; you don’t apply damage if you’re stunned, knocked down, dazed, chilled, rooted, terrorized…).
Most of my fourth season was playing condi Herald; wasn’t as good choice as playing the power variant but was more fun. After the October patch I stopped playing the class because you simply can’t survive the cc, and being tossed like a doll makes you harmless (condi builds rely more in damage over time than in burst; you don’t apply damage if you’re stunned, knocked down, dazed, chilled, rooted, terrorized…).
Yeah that’s pretty much my concern as well, our lack of defensive options in condi builds is a bit weird. Not sure what they’re thinking here… Maybe they see condi rev being a beast as long as it has support but even that doesn’t seem likely based on relative strength of the condi build vs other classes.
searing fissure it easily kited even when it works properly. Wouldn’t make a big difference.
Sure it does, its the difference between 0 stacks of burning and one. It’s also the difference them ticking torment for double because they are kiting the searing fissure as well.
Them not having to move and standing on a ramp or slight elevation not taking any damage is what I’m talking about here. So yea, if anet flattens all the maps, sure not a problem.
Btw have either of you played Condi rev extensively? I don’t really care to try and convince a ton of people to play it, but it would be nice to have experienced spvp players who have played it with whom I can discuss it.
I have played condi rev in spvp in the past. I wouldn’t call my self an expert, just knowledgeable. Here is what I settled on in previous seasons, which will more than likely change this season.
I found it grossly underpowered but still enjoyable compared to power build. Condi does much much better in a wvw setting(where I primarily play it) thats only because you can get the stats you need.
searing fissure it easily kited even when it works properly. Wouldn’t make a big difference.
Sure it does, its the difference between 0 stacks of burning and one. It’s also the difference them ticking torment for double because they are kiting the searing fissure as well.
Them not having to move and standing on a ramp or slight elevation not taking any damage is what I’m talking about here. So yea, if anet flattens all the maps, sure not a problem.
Btw have either of you played Condi rev extensively? I don’t really care to try and convince a ton of people to play it, but it would be nice to have experienced spvp players who have played it with whom I can discuss it.
I have played condi rev in spvp in the past. I wouldn’t call my self an expert, just knowledgeable. Here is what I settled on in previous seasons, which will more than likely change to be
I found it grossly underpowered but still enjoyable compared to power build. Condi does much much better in a wvw setting(where I primarily play it) thats only because you can get the stats you need.
You’re right, I’m coming from a sPvP perspective and I forgot all about the other 2 game modes. Slanted surfaces aren’t a big issue in sPvP tbh, if you’re trying to load up somebody on condis in some random place off-point, the glitch isn’t the biggest issue. But yeah in other games modes that can be a big problem.
For your sustained dps build, rune of the undead would make more sense with Wanderer’s amulet. The build is otherwise pretty similar to what’s on metabattle (they archived it the day before the skill change announcement). I’d honestly suggest a more tanky amulet, I use leadership, you can get enough condi damage from your amulet. Keeping yourself alive while the condis tick away is the real struggle.
I take rune of the undead simply because its really stat efficient with upkeep costs because of hardening persistence. I get more effective health out of the vit/toughness relationship on a carrion undead setup than the straight wanders path.
So some quick math here.
Toughness is 1000 base,
hardening persistence adds +200 for embrace upkeep
embrace the darkness is a 1.1 modifer
Thats 1320 toughness
Which is a 92.4 condi damage return from 6th rune effect.
So basically out of one rune I get 175 condi damage + 100 toughness +92 condi damage.
All of that said, I would get more out of Balthazar runes or nightmare runes or running straight vippers. In the past when I have played those higher burst builds I struggled being able to stick to targets in the fray. That little bit of def goes a long way.
[Cya] TC Roamer/Scout
I Play WvW to have fun. I don’t find it fun anymore. Therefore I don’t play.
Hmm yea I suppose it’s good if you’re constantly upkeeping. Wouldn’t rune of scavenging make more sense though?
Scavenging is a viable alternative. It’s more bunker centric option though as it provides less offensive stats. Also the steal life scales with healing power which is why I think its better suited for a sages amulet rather than a carrion one. My second build makes use of this.
[Cya] TC Roamer/Scout
I Play WvW to have fun. I don’t find it fun anymore. Therefore I don’t play.
Yeah condi rev is weird because it +1s really well if you enter the fight by boonstripping, but it’s also a decent choice for bunkering if you mix your offensive skills and defensive peels well.
Yeah condi rev is weird because it +1s really well if you enter the fight by boonstripping, but it’s also a decent choice for bunkering if you mix your offensive skills and defensive peels well.
Indeed. It’s also very, very good point defense and good vs melee as you force the enemy to fight inside the #2 area. I keep having thieves jump on top of me where the bad ones die as they don’t move out while the good ones are effectively neutralized as they can’t get to me without taking significant damage.
So can we say condi rev is solid and viable at 5 man roaming in wvw?
Condi rev got a lot better with the last patch. Mallyx having a stunbreak helps immensely. All kinds of revs including condi struggle with conditions, we can delay them with pain absorption with lots of allies near it makes a huge difference. Generosity procs can make or break an encounter vs condi builds.
The problem with condi rev will always be: lack of application from range, and survivability because you have to be in melee. I’d say its alright in wvw if you play around the above limitations.
[Cya] TC Roamer/Scout
I Play WvW to have fun. I don’t find it fun anymore. Therefore I don’t play.
Condi rev got a lot better with the last patch. Mallyx having a stunbreak helps immensely. All kinds of revs including condi struggle with conditions, we can delay them with pain absorption with lots of allies near it makes a huge difference. Generosity procs can make or break an encounter vs condi builds.
The problem with condi rev will always be: lack of application from range, and survivability because you have to be in melee. I’d say its alright in wvw if you play around the above limitations.
But so long we got tools to close the gap, aka, having people stealth us to close the gap, condi rev should work well?
Also due to the fact we dont need 3 stats for offense like, power, crit and crit damage, we only need condi and duration but duration isnt even necessary, we can build more tanky in return and thus survivability shouldnt be a problem. We would use dwarf over dragon stance though, so no panic button unless u consider dwarf elite to be one.
Personally I think the 20sec internal cooldown of Venom Enchancement kills revs condi’s too. It’s a 5 sec poison when applied torment on a 20 sec cooldown and poison lasts longer. I’d like to see it as a 10 sec cooldown. I’d also like to see Torment doing more damage while inside of Mallyx stance.
Main thing that killed condi rev was BWE2 change. Mallyx was supposed to be weak to power build but hardcounter condi ones. Now hes trash vs power builds and weak vs condi ones. Makes sense right? Still waiting for condi copy to be back along with pulsing resistance on elite.
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Main thing that killed condi rev was BWE2 change. Mallyx was supposed to be weak to power build but hardcounter condi ones. Now hes trash vs power builds and weak vs condi ones. Makes sense right? Still waiting for condi copy to be back along with pulsing resistance on elite.
Good times, but back on topic for the thread; i am sure they are willing to give condi rev buffs, BUT i am guessing they will nerf power rev even more if they go through with this…As we seen with the trend of nerfs with rev its massive nerf and small buff.
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