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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

So can we actually buff this ability to make it similiar to the new one from warrior spec or at least idk..get rid of this kitten interval?!

obey me

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Posted by: JoshuaRAWR.4653

JoshuaRAWR.4653

The interval will be 0.5 seconds for the next BWE, let’s see how it plays out first.

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Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA

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Posted by: quaniesan.8497

quaniesan.8497

I think they reduced the interval down to 0.5s, if i’m not mistaken. One benefit of this skills that not alot of people pay attention to is that you can use it abit before battle since the dagger sticks around for a while. The heals can patch up some damage you might get during the initial rush, and by the time you need it again, it should be fully recharged at that time. But yah, it could be better. maybe remove condition per dagger, since Shiro has absolutely no way to remove conditions.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

But what is the reason of this interval to begin with? Why these daggers also have olny 15sec duration? If i need heal i need it now, not slowly ticking it up hoping i will heal enough to stay alive. Pair that with lack of condi cleanse and here we go..

The initial heal is a joke as well. I rather have blood reckoning in this case, espesially when it really fits well offensive nature of Shiro. Jump in, start murdering everyone while healing for a decent amount. With current junk heal we cant do that at all.

obey me

(edited by skowcia.8257)

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

So can we actually buff this ability to make it similiar to the new one from warrior spec or at least idk..get rid of this kitten interval?!

I thought the same thing. But only removing cd on dagger won’t solve anything. Our siphoned heal is 800×6, Warrior’s has no limit. It’s your power damage converted to heal + 50% of your critical damage. It may be the strongest healing skill in the game with current damage output.

Rubi: You can’t have everything.
Hugh: Well, we can have a lot of things.
Warrior in a nutshell.

That class is already the most resilient in the game (with highest armor and HP), has condi cleanse on utility and weapons (lol at torch #5), has one of the highest dps and now MORE BURNING THEN GUARDIAN.

Than I saw the heal, that is basically Shiro’s but with no limits. A war can do 60k damage with 1 skill and actually get around 20k heal plus adrenaline.

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Posted by: quaniesan.8497

quaniesan.8497

I would say remove the limit of siphon numbers with a shorter duration.

If ya no longer see me after this post,
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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

and maybe give shield aoe condi cleanse like berserker’s torch lol. that thing has an aoe condi cleanse that moves with the caster. we get abubble that makes us unable to move.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

I would say remove the limit of siphon numbers with a shorter duration.

Remove initial heal. Reduce duration to 6 seconds, remove interval. Each hit you do siphon heal for 800.
Deal.

Impossible odds – considering how much energy it takes, it will transfer condition with 0.5 interval on attacks. Transferred conditions will use the original applied condition damage.
Deal.

Now we can talk indeed! Looking at how much cc warrior gained i really trying to understand reasons behind nerfed road. Espesially with that insta cast aoe taunt. And its not a secret that rev is short on stunbreaks without mentioning stability itself.

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Posted by: JoshuaRAWR.4653

JoshuaRAWR.4653

The difference between Enchanted Daggers and the Warriors Berserker Heal is this.

See a warrior pop his berserker heal? Stun him.

See a Revenant pop Enchanted Daggers? Stun him. He’ll still have the daggers once the stuns over.

Warrior 80 | Guardian 80 | Ranger 80 | Engineer 80 |
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA

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Posted by: Jaxom.7310

Jaxom.7310

that hugh guy mains a warrior, dats why theres always warrior power creeping around. if u see another dev get as excited as dat guy is for his wars, then u must be playing another game

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Fun fact: Berserk had break bar in a previous iteration.

However war can stunbreakwith many skills (even Berserk) and get Rousing Resilience from it.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

The difference between Enchanted Daggers and the Warriors Berserker Heal is this.

See a warrior pop his berserker heal? Stun him.

See a Revenant pop Enchanted Daggers? Stun him. He’ll still have the daggers once the stuns over.

Both stunned for how long? 1s?
Shir can now heal for 800 every 0.5s while War has 5 more seconds (6 if he stunbreaks) to heal 30k lol.

Fun fact: Berserk had break bar in a previous iteration. That should make you understand how they’re simply putting every OP idea they have into it, then removing stuff when they finally realize it’s OP (like the invulnerability while in Berserk they mentioned in the stream).

However war can stunbreak with many skills (even Berserk) and get Rousing Resilience from it. So it’s not a big deal if they lose 1s of heal.

The difference with Shiros’ is that Revanant gets increased damage from it, however I don’t see why it has an icd in the first place.

let’s see how it goes in the beta. It may even get removed.

(edited by Kidel.2057)

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Posted by: xarallei.4279

xarallei.4279

It would be nice if the daggers hung out for a bit longer….or if they just get rid of the icd.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

The difference between Enchanted Daggers and the Warriors Berserker Heal is this.

See a warrior pop his berserker heal? Stun him.

See a Revenant pop Enchanted Daggers? Stun him. He’ll still have the daggers once the stuns over.

Um..i have 4,8 k hours on my war. Got bored to death and theres one fun thing..how do you plan to stun it? Stability on a demand (something rev lack) from dol signet and balanced stance, outrage 10 cd stunbreak, semi stunbreak from headbutt on 20cd (a trick ill explain in a moment), f2 being also stunbreak.

On top of that if you trait for eternal champion instead of bloody roar you also getting 3 sec stability for each stunbreak – if you used headbutt as stunbreak ability this will prevent selfstun, and pulsing stability on f2 for 15seconds. I wish ya good luck stunning warrior with all that stuff, espesially if some war will dedicate himself to be a cc monster, so actually you will pop impossible odds and will be running for your life in hpe he wont catch up.

Despite 15sec duration it was already hard to get all 6 daggers off in pvp due to all the blinds, blocks, evades, kiting, stealth, stuns, , deflect, damage pressure – you have to dodge and stay away espesially when youre low on hp to survive. 15 sec was simply not enough.

This healing skill is a total failure. Even with reduced interval that shouldnt exists in the first place. It also makes no sense to nerf road espesially when right after you release ….this. Stab from road wasnt even applied right away but with 3 second delay.

New revenant meta – sword 3, run away rinse repeat or get eated alive.

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

Next

But what is the reason of this interval to begin with? Why these daggers also have olny 15sec duration? If i need heal i need it now, not slowly ticking it up hoping i will heal enough to stay alive. Pair that with lack of condi cleanse and here we go..

The initial heal is a joke as well. I rather have blood reckoning in this case, espesially when it really fits well offensive nature of Shiro. Jump in, start murdering everyone while healing for a decent amount. With current junk heal we cant do that at all.

There are a lot of hits, especially with sword so the interval is to prevent excessive spike. The daggers hit for about 900-1000 damage so having all 6 hits in rapid succession would turn a heal into a spike skill. It is intended to be good damage and healing though. The shorter interval should help a lot with the feel for Enchanted Daggers.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: JoshuaRAWR.4653

JoshuaRAWR.4653

But what is the reason of this interval to begin with? Why these daggers also have olny 15sec duration? If i need heal i need it now, not slowly ticking it up hoping i will heal enough to stay alive. Pair that with lack of condi cleanse and here we go..

The initial heal is a joke as well. I rather have blood reckoning in this case, espesially when it really fits well offensive nature of Shiro. Jump in, start murdering everyone while healing for a decent amount. With current junk heal we cant do that at all.

There are a lot of hits, especially with sword so the interval is to prevent excessive spike. The daggers hit for about 900-1000 damage so having all 6 hits in rapid succession would turn a heal into a spike skill. It is intended to be good damage and healing though. The shorter interval should help a lot with the feel for Enchanted Daggers.

I pretty much agree with this, the heal also siphons life, so it’s dealing more damage on top of your hits. Let’s also not forget that Revenants sword #3 is an evade now.. See the warrior pop his berserker heal? Hit sword #3, he ain’t gonna get any healing off you, if you’re in Shiro stance, and you see a warrior pop his elite heal, there’s no reason he should be able to land a hit on you for the duration it lasts, you can pretty much avoid him permanently for the duration of his heal.

Regarding the daggers though, the only thing i would change is the duration of the daggers themselves to 30 seconds, and increase how many are summoned from 6 to maybe 8 or so.

Could that be something we could mess around with Roy?

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Posted by: Sylent.3165

Sylent.3165

Daggers last 20 seconds. Issue fixed I think. Can use it at start of fight if needed then

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

Previous

Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

Duration is something I can play with, but there are problems which can happen because of it. For example if it was 30 second duration it means it would always be most effective to pre-cast them before a fight which is something I’m not sure I want. I’ll think about it though.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

This guy knows his kitten.

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Posted by: xarallei.4279

xarallei.4279

It lasts 15 seconds right? How about 20 seconds if you think 30 is too much.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

Duration is something I can play with, but there are problems which can happen because of it. For example if it was 30 second duration it means it would always be most effective to pre-cast them before a fight which is something I’m not sure I want. I’ll think about it though.

If you have full health, will the dagger hits still trigger, or will the game “wait” until you take some damage first before you get the life siphon effect? If they do trigger no matter what, then pre-casting it would be a bad idea as it could potentially waste its healing, unless the player is willing to sacrifice that for a strong, bursty initiation. And in that case, it would be kinda like medidation guardians, where their burst sequence comes at the cost of their defense, which is still healthy for pvp.

That being said, I do think 30 seconds would be way too long. That’s plenty of time for you to do anything. Perhaps 20 seconds would be enough to make it more “confortable” but, IMO, I think 15 seconds is fine as it is, too.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

It lasts 15 seconds right? How about 20 seconds if you think 30 is too much.

I think 30 was just an example to make us understand his reason behind a short duration.

However it’s not really a problem imo since we spend energy to use that skill, and the base heal is another reason to use it wisely.

Regardless Roy doesn’t like to make op stuff and then nerf it later it seems. I like his approach more, I wish other devs were like him. I know it’s harsh to say, but that’s my opinion.

He has always improved stuff that needed improvement. He earned my trust.

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Posted by: Stinja.9612

Stinja.9612

To be honest you will always precast shiro heal regardless of its duration in game-play because its initial heal is so poor its not worth counting on it in a fight, and is better used mitigating the initial few trades with an opponent while increasing your opening burst.

If you are poisoned it will heal you for practically nothing anyway in almost every situation you are better off legend swapping to another legend to receive an actual heal over counting on shiro.

The damage per dagger could be significantly lowered to normal life steal ticks 300ish per each dagger and the initial heal could be brought up to actual usable levels but the skill would lose its thematic shironess.

As a side note the skills art looks horrible and i really hope when wielding bolt those flying cucumbers turn into mini bolts.

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(edited by Stinja.9612)

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Posted by: DanteZero.9736

DanteZero.9736

I’d like to see what the skill will be like now that the interval is 0.5 seconds. If it feels really bad, perhaps increasing the base heal and reducing the amount of daggers summoned could be an option? Example: Base heal is doubled but the amount of daggers summoned is now 4 instead of 6. All other numbers are the same (including intervals).

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Less daggers mean less damage.

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Posted by: Sylent.3165

Sylent.3165

Duration is something I can play with, but there are problems which can happen because of it. For example if it was 30 second duration it means it would always be most effective to pre-cast them before a fight which is something I’m not sure I want. I’ll think about it though.

Yea 30 seconds would be a bit to much. I think 20 would be the max possible number in terms of balance and being fair in my opinion.

The main issue is just the “oh no I need to heal” but then something dies and the daggers are gone before you can attack something else and now your out a heal.

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Posted by: Elrey.5472

Elrey.5472

Right now that skill is perfect for me. I played 20 hours of Revenant on the last Beta Weekend against lot of different things and the perfect mix of that skill + sword 2 of autoattack + sword 2 + sword 3 of autoattack makes an awesome heal + explosion combination. To that, add to start a fight with axe 4 and sword 3 and you no longer need to activate it before a combat to nuke enemies while also healing 50% of your own health.

I wouldn’t change it.

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Posted by: Corran.4957

Corran.4957

I basically always pre-casted shiro heal. Fury+initial dmg burst vs a 2k heal when you need it. There really is no reason NOT to pre-cast with the way it was with the 1s cooldown on them.
0.5s may make it slightly more a choice, but I highly doubt it. Shiro heal is really a “use when off cooldown” heal as it no good in an emergency. 2k heal and then 1k per second on hit really had no chance of helping when you get hit for 3k+ most the time when take damage.
With 0 icd on the daggers it would seriously need to consider if you want it for spike dmg or burst healing on demand. Hell, without an ICD you could actually consider dropping the duration to 10s which then would make it even tougher decision. Pre-cast and possibly miss out on some the burst dmg as you couldnt engage quick enough, or solid healing after engaging and having lost health (which then actually gives the enemy more chance of countering/interupting you)

I understand the spike concerns though and do think the best solution is to increase the duration if you feel you unable to remove the internal cd. Although take this into account Roy.

The Warrior Elite – Go berserk mode – Initiated the Berzerk flurry skill at point blank range – 8 stacks of burn instantly on target (pierces too iirc). And we all know burning dmg pure tick is insane. That is on a 5second timer – so is it really that insane that the heal that is on a 30s timer can do 5.4k dmg over a couple of seconds. Would also say the heal is at best comparable to what a berserker will be getting from the new healing skill that they receive (infact the warrior “should” get much higher health return if it is built for any decent sort of dmg, especially if conditions it previously placed on an enemy returns health also)

Personally 15s with no cooldown should make it a usable heal (not great but usable), as a on demand heal .. 0.5s I doubt it because in the 3s it takes to get the full heal you still would have took a lot more dmg than what it healing you for so it can not really be held back for a “on demand” heal and likely will remain as part of the opening burst rotation for more dmg in order to hopefully beat the enemy before you actually need a heal.

15s duration/20s duration/25s duration makes no difference in my opinion. You would still cast it just before you hit Phase Traversal so the opening hits (that will have unblockable ability on them) force the enemy to waste more cooldowns then they would necessarily have to in the first 3-5seconds of the fight. If you want a real heal you would always need to switch to your other legend (and if it is Glint you have to hope the enemy continues to hit you )

If this is how the warrior is, I dread to think what the Engineer will be like. Probably they will just simplify it whilst keeping it as one of the best condi and burst dps classes, just so it easier for everyone to do :P

(edited by Corran.4957)

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Posted by: SoulstitchMMO.1396

SoulstitchMMO.1396

My favorite thing to do that weekend was Shiro 6, 9, Hammer 4, AA

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Posted by: quaniesan.8497

quaniesan.8497

Duration is something I can play with, but there are problems which can happen because of it. For example if it was 30 second duration it means it would always be most effective to pre-cast them before a fight which is something I’m not sure I want. I’ll think about it though.

Since Shiro has many means to increase dps, I’m not sure if it is really necessary to give our healing skill a dps aspect through siphon. I would rather get rid of the damage part and buff the heal in exchange. would you considering adding condi removal aspect to the heal, as Shiro has no access to such? Say, each dagger has X chance to remove a condi?

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Wouldn’t mind if each Dagger applied 1-2s of Regeneration.

Healing Power doesn’t seem to scale nicely with Shiro’s heal, but Regeneration does. Bonus synergy is always legit.

As for “OP Warrior heals!”, ask yourself: “Do I really, really think Warriors will give up on Healing Signet?”

Yes, that Rage heal has an amazing healing potential. But so does Defiant Stance. Seen posts about Defiant Stance being OP or someone complaining about how strong it is? Me neither.
Both might have nice potential in PvE, but at the end, there’s one king of Wurriors’ hearts…

HealingSig

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

There are a lot of hits, especially with sword so the interval is to prevent excessive spike. The daggers hit for about 900-1000 damage so having all 6 hits in rapid succession would turn a heal into a spike skill. It is intended to be good damage and healing though. The shorter interval should help a lot with the feel for Enchanted Daggers.

Could we increase initial heal to 4k, and decrease the life siphon to 416 then if you worry about too much healing from that skill? That way we can keep interval, damage without running around with total junk skill.

I understand why there is a interval, i really do. But i do not think its fair to end up taking more damage during a fights than i can heal with these daggers which actually require me to attack and under pressure i rather focus on avoiding damage and surviving by kiting myself rather than trying to heal up with attacks, espesially when i am under focus which in turn leaving me with basically having olny one healing skill on another legend. If i try to use these daggers trying to heal on already low hp i will be dead right away.

The duration could be increased to 20 seconds as well (i agree with 30 being too much). As it stands now its pretty much a precast skill already tho. Many used it this way, and many continue to do so as its the olny way to make it somewhat “work” in current state.

Look, i appreciate your work. There are some issues, espesially with Jalis but were in beta after all, its okay. Shiro on it own is great, i love his skill kit, but that healing skill is really terrible holding back this legend to from being truly viable. Once that get reworked a bit Shiro will be complete. Everything is great but..enchanted daggers. I believe revenant could have ended up in much better state last beta if it wasnt due to lack of sustain thanks to this skill. That pretty much what made power builds unviable.

As for “OP Warrior heals!”, ask yourself: “Do I really, really think Warriors will give up on Healing Signet?”

I plan to do on my warrior as i cant look at healing signet and it total faceroll 100% passive nature.

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Posted by: Pomdepin.7068

Pomdepin.7068

Well, I agree that Daggers felt weak during the previous beta, but we now have an interval reduction, let’s see how it will be in the next beta. I agree that a 20sec uptime or 8 daggers could be nice.

Concerning the new warrior’s heal, I think it’s only reliable in pve since you can jut run away from him when he tries to heal in pvp. Even in 1v1 if he manages to hit you few times, it won’t be as good as the healing signet imo. Plus revenants have another reliable healing skill with the other legend.

Warrios got a nice elite spec, I like it and think it will be balanced….. If only they dare fixing that ridiculously overpowered burning condition !!!

What is ele’s weakness again ? . . . (Please don’t make me laugh, don’t say frost).

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Since Shiro has many means to increase dps

Shiro has only 2 means to increase dps: the healing skill and Impossible Odds. And IO is useless if you have a Chronomancer or a couple of Guardians in the group, plus consumes too much energy.

So I’d rather have the daggers spike damage then heal more. If you have a shield/staff and Jalis you can get a lot of burst heal anyway.

Remove the siphon on the healing skill and Shiro is basically useless in a meta group. Not that is really useful even now anyway.

Warrios got a nice elite spec, I like it and think it will be balanced….. If only they dare fixing that ridiculously overpowered burning condition !!!

What is ele’s weakness again ? . . . (Please don’t make me laugh, don’t say frost).

I really agree with that. I’m not against every class having a weakness, but I’d like to know what is Ele’s, Berserker’s and Mesmer’s.
I mean, a Mesmer now can solo lv50 Fractal, there is a video.

(edited by Kidel.2057)

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Well, I agree that Daggers felt weak during the previous beta, but we now have an interval reduction, let’s see how it will be in the next beta. I agree that a 20sec uptime or 8 daggers could be nice.

I already said above, why it is bad. Even with reduced interval you still find often situations where your healing skill is basically useless. Nobody will wait for you to heal up, ppl will just go full yolo knowing that your second healing skill is on cd and you have no real ways to heal without taking damage. And considering how autoatk alone can hit for…. whats the point again?

Concerning the new warrior’s heal, I think it’s only reliable in pve since you can jut run away from him when he tries to heal in pvp. Even in 1v1 if he manages to hit you few times, it won’t be as good as the healing signet imo. Plus revenants have another reliable healing skill with the other legend.

I had great success with litany of wrath personally. Sure it heals for 4k base, but often i recovered another 6k or so from attacking. And thats on guard..without cc. My fav part is to pop up protection with stability, jump into enemy zerg, pop litany, put down symbol of wrath and spin2win. The amount of healing…thats so beautiful /cry

The new warrior heal is not worse at all, it can be more rewarding than healing signet itself, but you need have a bit of skill to make it work. Then again in teamfights..what stops warrior from whirl and arcing slide on a point or call mates to lock someone and hb?

Warrios got a nice elite spec, I like it and think it will be balanced….. If only they dare fixing that ridiculously overpowered burning condition !!!

There are many crazy combos with the stuff they showed, and with the amount of stuns revenant wont be able to stay toe to toe with warrior in a melee fight. Espesially with nerfed into ground Jalis road. There is no way berserker make it into live game in current state as it would be too broken.

What is ele’s weakness again ? . . . (Please don’t make me laugh, don’t say frost).

Condition revenant can kill them. The pressure from embrance is too much for them to handle. But in general they can faceroll and do everything at same time. Group support, cc, roaming, bunkering, great mobility…everything into 1 package. Atm olny signet necro can deal with them i believe and maybe gs/ham warrior due to the high amount of stuns.

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Posted by: Pomdepin.7068

Pomdepin.7068

Like I said, I don’t think Berserker have zero weakness, but we can’t really say before next beta to have a real try. If burning power is decreased, which I think – hope – they will do, Berserker should be fine, but if not, it could stack so many burns it would be a nightmare (guards and eles were enough).

Mesmers do have their weaknesses, but they are also so powerful it is hard to exploit them. They don’t have to take much risk and can output insane bursts pretty often…

I just think damages in general are too high since the june 23rd patch. A global damage decrease (direct damages and burning especially) could arrange pvp games. Some professions would however need some tweaks to have less self sustain (yes, DD cele eles don’t fear death atm). When I look at the death recap, I constantly see burning at the top of it, for 14k or more, just insane.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

If they want to go into e-sports they need to fix this stuff.

A plain damage decrease to everything would solve NOTHING. Weaker classes will still be weaker, and to the point that they’re completely useless for the current content.
I agree, damage is high, but only on some classes (Ele/Mesmer). Necro and Thief are more then fine, they don’t need any reduction, as well as Revenant.

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Posted by: Pomdepin.7068

Pomdepin.7068

Warrios got a nice elite spec, I like it and think it will be balanced….. If only they dare fixing that ridiculously overpowered burning condition !!!

There are many crazy combos with the stuff they showed, and with the amount of stuns revenant wont be able to stay toe to toe with warrior in a melee fight. Espesially with nerfed into ground Jalis road. There is no way berserker make it into live game in current state as it would be too broken.

What is ele’s weakness again ? . . . (Please don’t make me laugh, don’t say frost).

Condition revenant can kill them. The pressure from embrance is too much for them to handle. But in general they can faceroll and do everything at same time. Group support, cc, roaming, bunkering, great mobility…everything into 1 package. Atm olny signet necro can deal with them i believe and maybe gs/ham warrior due to the high amount of stuns.

Berserker is made for melee fight, don’t stand in their ground. Again, it was just a stream, nobody even played it, so just wait and see !

“Signet necro” is not a weakness to me. ^^ Don’t think a gs/ham warrior can take a good elem down alone… Eles should have to choose between good self sustain and good damage. Cele brings a good mix, but burning stacks from them are as powerful as low-sustain berserker professions attacks. Still think problem is more burning damages than ele mechanics.

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Posted by: Pomdepin.7068

Pomdepin.7068

If they want to go into e-sports they need to fix this stuff.

A plain damage decrease to everything would solve NOTHING. Weaker classes will still be weaker, and to the point that they’re completely useless for the current content.
I agree, damage is high, but only on some classes (Ele/Mesmer). Necro and Thief are more then fine, they don’t need any reduction, as well as Revenant.

Yes, I said it wrong.
When I meant global damages, I supposed lot of balance behind. Like you said, some classes are fine. I just find it bad to be able to take someone down with 2 attacks in 2 seconds. You should always be able to react when you’re full life with all your skills (excepted if you’rea full glass canon killed by another full zerker maybe). Thing is when you got tp + burnt by guards or shattered to death, you can’t. We all lived this moment you got instantly wrecked without understanding a thing that happened. ^^

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Berserker is made for melee fight, don’t stand in their ground.

List to avoid as a melee power revenant

-Burn guardians
-Mesmers
-Warriors
-Trapper ranger
-Eles
-Anything with conditions really

So what is revenant good against? 0 condi cleanse – any condi build walks over us.
Basically no stab outside of a dodge and short on stunbreaks – any build with decent cc will walk over us too.

Revenant is so stricle melee oriented that im not even sure how they are supposed to deal with all this crap. Even our olny condition weapon is melee based. Condition weapon which needs kiting abilities to tick damage, espesially torment.

Hammer is crap as it has no kiting abilities and is too slow. Revenant also has no blinks to to get away, you can olny close it or pop up impossible odds in a hope you have enough energy to get away.

So if berserker is made for melee, and we shoulndt stand in “their ground” then what is revenant supposed to do? What is his ground? Running without weapons and leech like in underwater fractals last beta? Kormir v2?

Warrior – 2 ranged weapon (even if rifle sux, its still ranged wep)
Guardian – one ranged, one medium ranged
Revenant – 1 ranged

So all in all who is the most oriented melee class here?

obey me

(edited by skowcia.8257)

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

This trait has literally no sense in the current meta. Unless it has a 20 seconds icd.

And the other GM is AOE taunt every 12 seconds. AOE taunt… Every 12 seconds… in PvP………………

Berserker is basically “please nerf me”: the class.

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(edited by Kidel.2057)

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Posted by: Temihal.8651

Temihal.8651

Back on rev…

I understand the need to avoid the potential spike.
But right now the skill is best used pre casting it even with a lower spike damage (the fury on heal trait helps too).
So we end up with a skill used in the “wrong way” (if from a design pov we want to avoid the pre casting) and that’s also weak at that (because it wasn’t thought like that).

Having an ICD means we want to spread the spike over a longer duration, to somehow mitigate it. I’m ok with this too.

We should also not ignore the main problem the skill have right now: low amount of healing.
To make things worse, we need to attack to heal, making us vulnerable to more damage this skill won’t be able to mitigate.
And the ICD makes it harder for us to CC someone or using a mistake on their part to heal (example: even if we found an enemy immobilised for 3 sec we can’t get a full heal out of them before they can start getting away).

TL;DR

To put it all together, we need to prevent excessive spike while doing one of the following three:
- Heal more
- Heal faster
- Mitigate damage while healing

I’m going to try and come out with some possible solutions:

1) We could do something like double the daggers giving them half the damage but keeping the healing as it is, but I think it’s not good to have a 12 parts buff from a design standpoint.
And the healing would be too much with 12, so something like 8-10 (giving them proportional damage) would be better.
But I still don’t like it.

2) Stronger initial heal, keeping the rest as it is.

3) Some sort of evade, invulnerability or at least stability/protection for 4-6 sec after the initial heal. That would give us time to actually heal a little bit.

We can talk about numbers, but I guess my pick would be #3.
With that the heal would gain that OMG button feel it totally lacks while keeping the need to stay aggressive (the low initial heal is useless alone).
The ICD stays, so we don’t have too much spike damage and we still need to think about when using it (the buff duration wouldn’t cover the time we need to use all 6 daggers).
As a plus, it’s hard to give up a buff like that to use it as a pre-casted opener.

Just my 2 cents^^

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Posted by: Pomdepin.7068

Pomdepin.7068

This trait has literally no sense in the current meta. Unless it has a 20 seconds icd.

And the other GM is AOE taunt every 12 seconds. AOE taunt… Every 12 seconds… in PvP………………

Berserker is basically “please nerf me”: the class.

I said I was fine with it as long as they change the way burning works. Otherwise, I said it, I agree with you, it’s certainly freaking too strong.

Then in melee, revenant has access to several blocks, evades, stab on dodge roll… but stays a piece of meat on a BBQ under heavy burning.

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Posted by: DanteZero.9736

DanteZero.9736

Another option that popped into my head:

  • Increase base heal to be around 5 or 6k, each dagger no longer siphons health but can transfer 1 condition to 1 target. Interval stays the same.

The idea is to have more instant healing and an option for more GW1 Shiro functionality—when he could transfer conditions per hit. Some may say that 6k is possibly too much. I would say that if you’re running Shiro, chances are, you’re running something that’s more offense oriented than defense oriented and need something big to keep you alive.

While using one heal skill and then swapping to another stance for another heal skill is really powerful, you’re effectively forced to change playstyles a bit if you swap to heal.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Not happening. They want Shiro’s heal to be offensive oriented, that’s why daggers deal 800 damage each.

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Posted by: DanteZero.9736

DanteZero.9736

Not happening. They want Shiro’s heal to be offensive oriented, that’s why daggers deal 800 damage each.

It’s a good thing I didn’t say “remove the damage component.” It’s still offense oriented with my second suggestion so yes, it will still deal the 800 damage per dagger.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It’d lose the flavour, though. It’s supposed to be the jade daggers sticking into the enemy and returning their health to you

Also, there’s no realistic way we’re going to get a 6k initial heal which gives us an extra 4k damage over the next three seconds or six hits (whichever is longer). Soothing stone is four and a half, empowering misery about 3k plus an extra thou per condition. Enchanted daggers is balanced as a big heal that also contributes to a spike, but the downside is that it takes time and remaining in combat to get the full benefit. It’s something that you fire off at around 75%, rather than waiting until you’re at 25% and it’s an emergency.

If you’re at 25%, switch legends and use the other legend’s heal. If your other legend is Ventari… well, if you’re running Shiro/Ventari, don’t get into situations where you need an emergency heal is my best advice.

That said, reducing the ICD on the daggers is probably going to be a big change. Shall we at least see how that plays out before requesting a complete rebalancing?

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Stinja.9612

Stinja.9612

Ah yes the only heal in the game that can be blinded,blocked,evaded,destroyed,reflected, kited, stealth-ed out, and invulned. Out of fairness I am not counting interrupted,fear spam, and uncrossable lines preventing you from using it.

It would be soo op to have an actual usable heal in arguably the best Revenant legend kit. The very foundations of the game would crumble… seriously if you think in actual pvp youll get alot of worth out of enchanted daggers you’re lying to yourself. Hell even pve most mordrem fights you seem to have quite a bit of poison being thrown around.

It will always be 100% best case scenario to precast the skill regardless of damage and duration in its current iteration.

Now for the people who will tout you just don’t understand! You just gotta try it and believe mannnn.

Here’s some math for a likely pvp situation with competent players. You’re fighting 2v2 you need to heal. You will most likely be poisoned which is -33% right there starting the initial heal at about 1300 and you will have to attack to heal which means 2 attacks occur.(1 auto/1 dagger) Sword 3 is an evade just use that during the heal! Doesn’t help your lack of instant stability with guardian/ele lines/circles you will be bumped out of the skill.

This means 2 retal procs assuming you only hit 1 person and the dagger actually gets to hit the target. 33% of 800 is 264 you now heal 536 base per dagger factor in the retal which we’re being generous saying they have very low power and leaving it at 200. you heal 136 a dagger. We’re not even going to factor in the plethora of other stuff going on confusion,burns,bleeds ect because Shiro himself will turn over in his grave.

TL:DR By the power of basic math…..The heal is bad.

PS: It is still very visible ugly and the daggers don’t look anything like daggers. A point i’d like to drive home.

I may be harsh but i care deeply about the game.
Twitch→ (http://www.twitch.tv/phenomatron)

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

^Finally someone who understand why this heal is terrible and why reducing interval wont fix..

Even that cosmetic thing.. It looks more like cucumbers than daggers.

obey me

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

I don’t know if it fits thematically however.

Idk how lore wise it worked but it could be slaped in GM trait we already have to summon a “dagger” and life steal from there to keep Shiro “theme”

That looks more for me like original Shiro healing skill;
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Meditation_of_the_Reaper

That sounds like sword 5;
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Echoing_Banishment

That is..something we need, something we lack so bad;
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Impossible_Odds

And thats another thing that could be used as healing skill in a similiar way to litany/new war heal;
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Battle_Scars

Both of them are better candidates for healing skill than…this.

obey me

(edited by skowcia.8257)