Guild Wars 2

I posted this idea in some other threads, but I feel like it’s worth fleshing out on it’s own.

As we all know, Revenant uses Energy. I’m going to bring up GW1 energy a lot, but I do realize and acknowledge that it’s not necessarily the same “kind” of energy. Never the less, it does function in a very similar fashion.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Energy

It was basically “mana” for every class to cast spells with. The whole concept of upkeep skills for Revenant comes directly from the same type of skill in GW1. I want to draw your attention to other types of energy-related skills in GW1. I also want to give you my ideas for altering those old skills to match the mechanics of the Revenant, and the gameplay of GW2. The goal here is to suggest a more interesting and engaging playstyle for the Revenant using the energy system. This could potentially raise the skill cap of the class and make Energy less monotonous.

I’ll try not to list too many skills… You can view the wiki page for more.

Increase Maximum Energy

• Mighty Was Vorizun - In GW2, this skill would be renamed something like Ventari’s gift. The functionality would be similar though. It would actually be made into a trait for the Ventari Legend. While the tablet is active, you gain +20 maximum energy (120 total). When the tablet is destroyed, you go back to normal and refill +20 energy (so 100 energy max, but you regenerate 20 instantly from whatever level you had, up to the cap).

Energy Regeneration

• Energetic Was Lee Sa - This would be a utility skill. It would basically work like a conjured weapon. You would summon the weapon in your hand, but no additional weapon would be placed on the ground. While holding this weapon you would gain +5 energy regeneration, but -30 to maximum energy. The +5 would counter, but not fully negate an upkeep skill. Or you could cast a lot more abilities while holding the weapon, then upon dropping it be granted the missing 30 points for a final spike. Again I would rename this to something that suites the Revenant. Perhaps Conjure Mist Weapon.

• Ether Prodigy - This skill I would rename to Mist Channeling, but the functionality would remain almost the same. You would sacrifice all your boons and gain 10 seconds of +5 energy regen. When it ends you lose 30 points of health per point of energy you have left. That would make 3000 self damage if it ends when you are at max energy; not enough to kill you, but enough to justify the skill. That part would scale with your level, just to be safe.

continued…

Energy Gain

• Offering of Spirit - This would be a utility skill modified for reviving allies. In GW2 you would sacrifice up to 50 energy when casting this. For 10 seconds you would revive allies 1% faster per point of energy spent. I would also add a trait (separate from this skill) that gives you 20 energy upon reviving an ally.

• Marksman’s Wager - This one I would rename Beyond the Veil. In GW2 it would be an upkeep skill giving the revenant +5 energy on strike, but -10 on missing, and the upkeep cost would be -5 pips. So with a lot of frequent hits, you could gain back some energy slightly faster and mitigate the cost of cheaper skills. The risk of missing would make this an interesting choice.

• Renewing Surge - This skill would be a utility or weapon skill. It would place a pulsing 360 aoe on ground target and last for 8 seconds. It would pulse 1 stack of Torment per second. When it ends you would gain 1 energy per strike by the skill during it’s duration. That means with an aoe cap of 5, and assuming it hits 5 on each pulse, your max energy gain would be 40.

Cost Modifying

• Soul Twisting - I always loved the icon and theme of this skill. For the revenant it would be an elite skill. It would make your next 5 skills cost 30 less energy (minimum 0) and recharge 20% faster.

• Air of Enchantment - This skill I would rename Mist Enchanting and it would be a trait. The trait would give you 5 energy whenever you apply a boon to an ally. It would have an internal cooldown.

• Energizing Wind - This skill would be a utility. It would summon an immobile spirit. While in range of the spirit allies gain vigor periodically, and revenant skills cost 10 less energy. The spirit would last 30 seconds or until destroyed.

As you can see, the trend here is to make energy more of an active give/take system. You sacrifice some energy in the short term to gain more in the long term. Or you gain energy by playing intelligently. I was hoping for this when I first heard about Revenant energy, but what we got seems to be far too passive for my taste.

There are way too many interesting GW1 skills to list here. The ones I picked were just from a quick search. There are a lot more that could be adapted for the Revenant, some might even work better than the ones I picked. Here’s to hoping Roy reads this.

If I recall, the Rev in GW2 had pips going from +5 energy/sec to -5 energy/sec. This means that the default energy regen rate maxes out the generation pips in the user interface while upkeep skills with -10/sec (like Impossible Odds) max out the degeneration pips. This, to me, implies that ANet probably doesn’t plan on allowing energy regen at more than +5 or degeneration at more than -5. Which is unfortunate, it would be cool to see ideas like these ones you’ve presented.

with GW2 being way faster then GW1, I don’t see how this energy management method is better then the one we currently have.

Don’t misunderstand me please, I’m sure it was way better in GW1, but GW2 has a different battle system, very fast and action based.

Revenant, compared to GW1 energy, has passive +5 regen and instant +50 energy on swap. This means you can manage your energy with 1 button and regain it very fast when needed.

To me the current system is better given the environment.

I want to know why we start at 50% energy.

Knighthonor.4061:

I want to know why we start at 50% energy.

If you already tried Revenant and upkeeps you should know the answer.
Revenant is supposed to start a bit slow or just average, and build for the big damage, as Roy said in the last POI.
The purpose is to make it different from Thief. Thief starts at 100% initiative, does its burst and then runs away with invisibility and such. Revenant energy will have to require a more balanced approach for its management.

Revenant energy is something between initiative and adrenaline, being different from both of them.

The machanic you are looking for is already in the game on a different class.

To me the current energy management is perfect, at least on paper. I’ll have to try it in the next beta event to be sure however.

Kidel.2057:

Knighthonor.4061:

I want to know why we start at 50% energy.

If you already tried Revenant and upkeeps you should know the answer.
Revenant is supposed to start a bit slow or just average, and build for the big damage, as Roy said in the last POI.
The purpose is to make it different from Thief. Thief starts at 100% initiative, does its burst and then runs away with invisibility and such. Revenant energy will have to require a more balanced approach for its management.

Revenant energy is something between initiative and adrenaline, being different from both of them.

The machanic you are looking for is already in the game on a different class.

To me the current energy management is perfect, at least on paper. I’ll have to try it in the next beta event to be sure however.

I totally disagree. Unlike initiative on a thief, Revenant weapon and utilities cost energy and they have skills that drain energy unlike Thief initiative points. They nothing alike. Simple as that.

Kidel.2057:

Knighthonor.4061:

I want to know why we start at 50% energy.

If you already tried Revenant and upkeeps you should know the answer.
Revenant is supposed to start a bit slow or just average, and build for the big damage, as Roy said in the last POI.
The purpose is to make it different from Thief. Thief starts at 100% initiative, does its burst and then runs away with invisibility and such. Revenant energy will have to require a more balanced approach for its management.

Revenant energy is something between initiative and adrenaline, being different from both of them.

The machanic you are looking for is already in the game on a different class.

To me the current energy management is perfect, at least on paper. I’ll have to try it in the next beta event to be sure however.

That’s not why. Starting at 50% I am willing to bet has to do with spamming elites. Unlike initiative, swapping and using a single skill (like an elite or forced engagement) can black out your ENTIRE bar, where initiative will only ever apply to 4 skills at once, and never your heal.

Furthermore, because of how face paced combat is and how ability-reliant revenant is, you get the effect of almost never having more energy than 50. Rarely do you see an instance of being able to safely pool energy beyond even 60, unless of course it’s because you’re chasing someone and pushing buttons wouldn’t help, but typically, sitting on energy leaves you open. And with 5/second (50 energy in 10 seconds) by time you press NO buttons for 10 seconds, your swap is back for free 50 energy. Hence, pooling is just a bad option.

what they need to do is just suck it up and add cooldowns to the elites do they can make decent elites without crazy cast times and do they aren’t spammable so they can open up the energy system to allowing full energy on swap.

AND, if they increase the swap/base amount to 100, they have more leniency with energy costs.

Really though, consider the fact that by time you go from 50→100 energy while using absolutely no skills, you spent 10 seconds auto attacking and your swap is already up… Your true effective energy level is not what it seems at all.

No CDs please on any of the skills, including weapon skills.

I also agree with you, ronpierce.

People needs to understand that Energy is not initiative, an utility skill is not like a weapon skill, and legend swap is not attunement swap.

You can’t force another class mechanic on Revenant. It’s a different class.

And I also agree on elites by the way. Maybe there is no need to add cd, since with huge energy cost and upkeep skills you’re not going to spam them, but a shorter activation time on Jalis elite would be great. That legend simply can’t tank atm.

@Lonewolf Kai
Yeah, asked for the same in the past. Waiting for next beta to see if there is any need for that now that we have weaponswap.

However having weaponskills with no cd, just energy, can make you spam them without stopping, even strong or cc ones. You can just swap legend every 10 seconds and spam weaponskills.
Maybe.

That’s something I wanna find out in the beta, as I said. Makes no sense to talk about it now.

Perhaps just adding more ways to increasing energy generation might be the way to go. Perhaps traits or adding it to more skills other than AA.

Knighthonor.4061:

I totally disagree. Unlike initiative on a thief, Revenant weapon and utilities cost energy and they have skills that drain energy unlike Thief initiative points. They nothing alike. Simple as that.

Unlike Thief, Revenant can instantly regenerate 50% of the energy. Plus the energy regeneration is way faster.

I agree they are not alike.
What I said is just that starting at 100 energy could make you burst from the beginning, and it’s not what they want revenant to do, as they said.

Plus yeah, as ron said, you could use elite skill AND spam weaponskills, while elite is something you’re supposed to use later in a fight, or just prior to legendswap.

Kidel.2057:

Knighthonor.4061:

I totally disagree. Unlike initiative on a thief, Revenant weapon and utilities cost energy and they have skills that drain energy unlike Thief initiative points. They nothing alike. Simple as that.

Unlike Thief, Revenant can instantly regenerate 50% of the energy. Plus the energy regeneration is way faster.

I agree they are not alike.
What I said is just that starting at 100 energy could make you burst from the beginning, and it’s not what they want revenant to do, as they said.

Plus yeah, as ron said, you could use elite skill AND spam weaponskills, while elite is something you’re supposed to use later in a fight, or just prior to legendswap.

I still think elites need CDs and be buffed accordingly (typically in cast times),

But if they don’t increase the swap amount, they need to greatly increase energy generation without increasing costs, because like I said. Even now without doing anything at all, it takes the full time for your legend swap to cool down to reach 100 energy. You rarely ever go over 60 energy at this point because you constantly need to be doing something, and you will eventually just swap to be effective. The used energy to gained energy ratio is poor. But personally, I still feel like 100 energy to start is better because then you’re rewarded less for spamming high cost spells as you gain the energy back too slow. And with starting at 100, there is room for higher costs on certain skills they don’t want, such as a 60 cost which effectively prevents it from
Being spammed. I just feel like overall, it’s a better way to handle it.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just want to test it in the next beta. A lot of energy-related stuff was outdated according to Roy, and it felt strange because of that. Let’s see, 1 more week to go.

ronpierce.2760:

Kidel.2057:

Knighthonor.4061:

I totally disagree. Unlike initiative on a thief, Revenant weapon and utilities cost energy and they have skills that drain energy unlike Thief initiative points. They nothing alike. Simple as that.

Unlike Thief, Revenant can instantly regenerate 50% of the energy. Plus the energy regeneration is way faster.

I agree they are not alike.
What I said is just that starting at 100 energy could make you burst from the beginning, and it’s not what they want revenant to do, as they said.

Plus yeah, as ron said, you could use elite skill AND spam weaponskills, while elite is something you’re supposed to use later in a fight, or just prior to legendswap.

I still think elites need CDs and be buffed accordingly (typically in cast times),

But if they don’t increase the swap amount, they need to greatly increase energy generation without increasing costs, because like I said. Even now without doing anything at all, it takes the full time for your legend swap to cool down to reach 100 energy. You rarely ever go over 60 energy at this point because you constantly need to be doing something, and you will eventually just swap to be effective. The used energy to gained energy ratio is poor. But personally, I still feel like 100 energy to start is better because then you’re rewarded less for spamming high cost spells as you gain the energy back too slow. And with starting at 100, there is room for higher costs on certain skills they don’t want, such as a 60 cost which effectively prevents it from
Being spammed. I just feel like overall, it’s a better way to handle it.

I’m not sure why everyone started on thief initiative… That’s a lot of semantics I’d rather not get into with this thread.

As for your point ronpierce, I don’t think simply putting you to 100% is a good idea. All it would do is give you a bigger starting pool at the beginning of the fight rather than later. The gameplay is still the same:

• Enter fight
• blow big skills
• swap for more energy
• blow more big skills
• wait for energy while auto attacking

The only thought placed in your skill decision from moment to moment is whether or not the enemy is ripe for a particular skill. In PvE this makes gameplay very face-roll because monsters are ripe for DPS 90% of the time. You might as well spam all your energy down to 0, and then spend half the fight auto attacking because everything costs energy and there’s no way to gain it back besides waiting.

I don’t think the combat in GW2 is too fast paced for energy-gain skills. It’s very simple, when you start to run low, you use one of those skills to attempt to regain energy faster than the passive rate. Each skill has different ways of getting you that energy which require more than just passive waiting.

For example it would make sense to use my proposed Renewing Surge, followed by Grasping Shadow + Forced Engagement. You could then follow up with Jade Winds and Beyond the Veil.

Or you could start the fight with an energy burst by doing Beyond the Veil + Impossible Odds + Phase Traversal. Against a large number of enemies it would be a net gain of 10 energy, offset by the -5 pips from Impossible Odds. So the whole combo would probably cost no energy and gain none if you land every hit, but you get the damage from it. The counterplay is that you would lose a lot of energy if any of them used a block or blind. Risk/reward.

Obviously energy costs would have to be balanced around these skills, I haven’t forgotten that.

fluidmonolith.3584:

If I recall, the Rev in GW2 had pips going from +5 energy/sec to -5 energy/sec. This means that the default energy regen rate maxes out the generation pips in the user interface while upkeep skills with -10/sec (like Impossible Odds) max out the degeneration pips. This, to me, implies that ANet probably doesn’t plan on allowing energy regen at more than +5 or degeneration at more than -5. Which is unfortunate, it would be cool to see ideas like these ones you’ve presented.

While I do believe that Anet doesn’t want to go above the +/- 5 energy per second, I don’t think there is anything that prevents the design of skills, particularly temporary buffs, that could possibly reduce the upkeep costs of skills by say, 1 or 2. Just a thought.

Kidel.2057:

And I also agree on elites by the way. Maybe there is no need to add cd, since with huge energy cost and upkeep skills you’re not going to spam them, but a shorter activation time on Jalis elite would be great. That legend simply can’t tank atm.

IMO, Rite of the Great Dwarf is a whole other issue that needs to be addressed that is independent of energy costs in this thread.

I think the balance problem with that ability is the AoE support reduction component is a trade off which hurts the “tank it” role. To fix, it just needs to stop trying to be party based for it’s channel or if it is, add an Aegis boon at the end of the cast. Then reduce the cast time significantly (maybe make it all aftercast?) while increasing the base effect/add boons.