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Posted by: Dreamcore.7632

Dreamcore.7632

First off just want to say I am of the general consensus that Revenant is in a much better position this BWE than it was in BWE1. However, with that said I still have some major concerns on a few topics which I will address below. This feedback is written from the perspective of an experienced WvW roamer playing a power based setup.

For reference, I played both Shiro/Jalis and Shiro/Glint with Sword/Axe and Staff.

I want to talk about an issue that kept arising which I feel to be a major problem with the current incarnation of the Revenant – condition removal. Roaming WvW, you often encounter condition damage-focused enemy players and for other classes you can slot adequate condition control to suit your build. However with the Revenant I found that unless I took the Mallyx stance I would be in trouble against condition-heavy enemies. I understand the presumable idea behind the lack of condition removal on legend stance skills being that you would want a legend that can combo well with Mallyx and make use of conditions rather than removing them. This however causes a severe weakness to conditions in builds that do not use Mallyx.

I preferred the Jalis legend over Glint purely because of the heal skill which was a little bit sad because overall I feel the Jalis legend is a bit underwhelming and Glint is better, but I desperately needed the condition removal from the Jalis heal skill. I like the idea that each legendary stance has a particular style and that those styles don’t overlap too much:

  • Shiro: Power based damage
  • Mallyx: Condition based damage
  • Jalis: Tanky, Control
  • Ventari: Healing
  • Glint: Support via boons

These ‘styles’ will reflect a bit in my suggestions below, so lets get to the weapons, skills and traits:

Sword
The auto-attack chain and Unrelenting Assault are in a good place. I feel like both of these skills deal good damage. Unrelenting Assault has a slight cast delay when using the skill which feels a little awkward.

  • Precision Strike feels a bit weak. I think the range is a little short on this skill to be good for gap closing so its uses are a bit limited.

Axe
Overall in a good place. Frigid Blitz is a very good skill but camera angles are a little bit weird when using and shadowstepping.

  • Temporal Rift is a little bit under-tuned. It is very easy to avoid the pull and I think it needs a small rework. My suggestion would be that it works more like the guardian greatsword skill ‘Binding Blade’. On cast it should tag the enemies hit by the rift and those enemies would then be pulled in, rather than the rift pulling in enemies that are close when it triggers.

Staff
Very fun weapon to use but has some issues mainly with energy costs and cooldowns.

  • Punishing Sweep > Debilitating Slam combo is too energy-costly. The 5 energy cost on Punishing Sweep is fine but the follow up cost of 15 on the second skill is too much. I would suggest lowering Debilitating Slam to 10 energy or refund the 5 energy from Punishing Sweep if the player hits an enemy using a skill thus gaining access to the secondary skill.
  • Surge of the Mists is a powerful skill but the cooldown is a little bit high at 20 seconds, especially considering we cannot trait for lower cd. I would suggest an 18 second cooldown.

Jalis Stance
This stance feels incredibly underwhelming overall. Almost all of the skills seem under-tuned and feel weak in most scenarios. Soothing Stone is in a perfect place, and is seemingly the main or only reason to slot Jalis.

  • Inspiring Reinforcement has a great concept but feels very weak. The main problem with this skill is that it does not synergize well with movement, but in WvW and PvP if you don’t move you are toast. I suggest removing the ground targeting and instead have it so the road always assembles in a straight line in the direction the player is facing with the player in the middle of the road. The road would then be fixed on the player and follow them. With this change I think the duration should be reduced to 4 seconds and energy cost reduced to 25.
  • Force Engagement has huge potential but unfortunately is very underwhelming. Aside from being single target, the energy cost on this skill is absurdly high for what the skill actually does. I would suggest adding a bounce effect to the chain so that it can hit up to three targets including the first. The bounce AoE should be much smaller that the initial range on the skill but large enough to work in scenarios(something like 400). With this change, reduce the Taunt and Slow duration’s to 1.75s. Since Inspiring Reinforcement has a cooldown, I see no problem with this skill having one either, so add a cooldown with the above changes: 15-20 seconds seems reasonable. Lastly, reduce the energy cost to make this skill viable to use: I think an energy cost of 30 is more suitable.
  • Vengeful Hammers is a really odd skill. It feels like what the skill does is a weird missmatch of things randomly thrown together and seems to have limited uses due to its high upkeep cost. This is where I come back to my issue with conditions from earlier, as well as the legendary stances having particular styles. I like the idea of this skill granting 20% less damage from direct and condition sources, but it does not synergize too well with the hammers. This is also where a suggestion of the Protection boon comes in, which so many people have been saying should be on Jalis as it makes the most sense. First of all I would suggest removing the 20% damage reduction feature. With this change I think the hammers should grant positive effects to the player when they hit enemies: upon hit, remove a condition and provide a short duration Protection boon. If the condition removal is too strong it could grant Resistance instead, which makes a lot of sense with Jalis being the tanky option. I think 2-3 seconds duration of each boon seems suitable.
  • Rite of the Great Dwarf is much better than last BWE. It still feels awkward to use this skill and when to use it, and the stun break seems out of place. I think this skill would work better with a shorter duration, but faster cast time – this way the skill is a great counter to quick bursts. I suggest lowering the cast time to 0.5 seconds and lowering the duration to 3.5 seconds.

Shiro
I feel like this stance is in a perfect place. It offers a lot of aggressive potential and I like the idea that Enchanted Daggers does not heal a flat amount and instead needs you to keep up the offense. Overall a good legend with a direct purpose, only a few small energy issues.

  • Riposting Shadows just seems to be a little costly energy-wise. Perhaps 25 energy cost would be a bit more suitable.
  • Impossible Odds is in the same boat, the upkeep on this skill just seems a bit high where you can only realistically use it when you have well over 50 energy so you can sustain weapon costs too. I would suggest adding a small initial cost for activating the skill: around 5 energy, then lower the upkeep to -8.

Glint
Overall I think this stance is a little bit too strong. I also think some incentive is lost from the F2 ability because the pulsing boons from each skill already have no downtime while the upkeep is maintained. Overall suggestion for the stance: increase the pulse interval to 4 seconds while keeping the boon duration at 3 seconds. This will bring much more incentive to use Facet of Nature for its 50% boon duration upkeep bonus. This will also incentivize particular boon duration gear and food buffs etc.

Traits
I tried two main builds for traits, one largely offensive and one a little more reserved. The offensive variant used Devastation, Invocation and Retribution. The defensive variant used Invocation, Retribution and Herald.

  • Devastation is a perfect trait line to match Shiro. I love the fact this line goes for full offense and again feels very purposeful. I would suggest Assassin’s Presence be swapped with Ferocious Strikes, as the former trait is stronger and is currently on a adept slot as oppose to the latter which is on a master slot(150 unconditional Ferocity vs 150 Ferocity while dual wielding).
  • Retribution feels like a good line to compliment a tanky-centric stance. However the Grandmaster traits, like the Jalis stance itself, are very underwhelming. Improved Aggression feels a bit weird that it only increases duration on non-player enemies. I would suggest this trait to give a percentage based increase to all taunts – 10-15% seems reasonable, and would give an option to go for a taunt based build to combo off with Eye for an Eye and Force Engagement. As for the Grandmaster traits, I find Reflexive Summon almost useless with such a high cooldown and Steadfast Rejuvenation a bit under-tuned. I would suggest drastically lowering the cooldown of Reflexive Summon to 15 seconds. For Steadfast Rejuvenation I think the ‘chance’ should be increased from 50 to 100% and the healing to ~ 500 baseline.
  • Invocation overall is a solid traitline. The only problem I have is Shrouding Mists: for a Grandmaster I feel like this trait is partially underwhelming when you consider some builds will not make use of the healing half of this skill. I believe this is where we can further solve the problem of conditions as mentioned above. My suggestion is to remove the outgoing healing increase and instead: whenever your energy bar reaches 50(or goes above) it will remove a condition. This would also have a cooldown; something like 5 seconds.
  • Herald is another good trait line with great focus on the Glint stance style of party or group support, overall very solid.

As a side note I did briefly try the shield but was very disappointed at how small the defiance bar was on #5. Also, skill #4 seems fairly useless aside from coordinated group play.

Thanks for reading!

(edited by Dreamcore.7632)

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Posted by: MercenaryNote.8506

MercenaryNote.8506

Very good and comprehensive analysis, I agree with some things and not so much on others, but I would like to point out one thing

Impossible Odds is in the same boat, the upkeep on this skill just seems a bit high where you can only realistically use it when you have well over 50 energy so you can sustain weapon costs too. I would suggest adding a small initial cost for activating the skill: around 5 energy, then lower the upkeep to -8.

The reason why impossible odds has a high upkeep is purely because of quickness being a pretty valuable boon, also not to mention that putting its costs to -8 would mean that you could use Facet of Nature on it and having an additional 50% uptime on quickness would be pretty broken (and Impossible odds is pretty broken as it already is)

Instead, I’d suggest removing the initial 10 energy costs on the skill altogether, but keep the -10 upkeep on it.

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Posted by: gaspara.4079

gaspara.4079

I agree with a lot of what you said but I disagree on a few things.

1) “Precision Strike feels a bit weak. I think the range is a little short on this skill to be good for gap closing so its uses are a bit limited.” I greatly disagree with, this skill hits like a truck and provides weakness and is the only cleave on the sword main hand. Axe 4> Sword 2 is how I opened most attack sequences.

2) I somewhat agree about conditions. It was for that reason that I dropped Shiro(but kept his trait line) and started playing Glint/Jalis. The ability to turn a condi spike into full health and then cleanse it felt pretty strong and worth having Jalis with his less than ideal other skills. Glint heal>swap Jalis(1 condi cleansed) > Jalis heal(4 condis cleansed). Honestly sustained conditions against non mallyx builds are the only weakness I feel this class has though, so unless they want to rework multiple things to give them more condi cleanse would make them op.

3) The biggest problem I see is that the Herald spec far outclasses anything possible in the basic spec. Glint is far too powerful to not be chosen.

Here is the build I ended up using most of the weekend:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlEQNAsXmnXN2gSqJvQRBlbosfyPU4Q5IKYr8ElFNFidMppNtBYBNwugJshA-TRCFwA2UuVa/BAnCgym7E8EAlgoUJIpSiM6DUpuDpAiYZE-e

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Posted by: MercenaryNote.8506

MercenaryNote.8506

3) The biggest problem I see is that the Herald spec far outclasses anything possible in the basic spec. Glint is far too powerful to not be chosen.

I disagree with this, I got along just fine without Glint this entire weekend, and fighting a Herald with Glint didn’t feel overwhelming at all.

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Posted by: Misguided.5139

Misguided.5139

I started a Jalis thread with some suggestions from a PvE perspective, so I’m curious what you would think about a couple of these. For Forced Engagement, I suggested (in addition to reduced cost) adding a pull. For Vengeful Hammers, I suggested moving the weakness from Inspiring Reinforcement (which needs all kinds of help, currently) to VH. While that wouldn’t directly address the condition problem you described, it might help somewhat by further mitigating non-condition damage.

I have a feeling they want to keep resistance a Mallyx thing.

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Posted by: Dreamcore.7632

Dreamcore.7632

1) “Precision Strike feels a bit weak. I think the range is a little short on this skill to be good for gap closing so its uses are a bit limited.” I greatly disagree with, this skill hits like a truck and provides weakness and is the only cleave on the sword main hand. Axe 4> Sword 2 is how I opened most attack sequences.

2) I somewhat agree about conditions. It was for that reason that I dropped Shiro(but kept his trait line) and started playing Glint/Jalis. The ability to turn a condi spike into full health and then cleanse it felt pretty strong and worth having Jalis with his less than ideal other skills. Glint heal>swap Jalis(1 condi cleansed) > Jalis heal(4 condis cleansed). Honestly sustained conditions against non mallyx builds are the only weakness I feel this class has though, so unless they want to rework multiple things to give them more condi cleanse would make them op.

3) The biggest problem I see is that the Herald spec far outclasses anything possible in the basic spec. Glint is far too powerful to not be chosen.

Thanks for your reply.

1) This skill doesn’t inflict Weakness, perhaps you are thinking of another skill as it doesn’t hit very hard either. I agree about the cleave aspect, but in the PoI about Shiro and the Sword, Roy said this skill was designed as a gap closer type ability, but it kind of sucks at that.

2) Jalis heal skill is very good against conditions(it removes 3 not 4) and I was also using the condi remove on legend swap trait, but I still had problems against persistant condition users. Overall though I stand by Jalis being a pretty poor legend, if you only slot it for 1/5 of the skills, that says something.

3) I have to disagree here, although I find Glint to be overall better than all of the other legends, it did not excel for solo roaming which is where I slotted Shiro/Jalis instead. However, for small group roaming it is very good.

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Posted by: Dreamcore.7632

Dreamcore.7632

Impossible Odds is in the same boat, the upkeep on this skill just seems a bit high where you can only realistically use it when you have well over 50 energy so you can sustain weapon costs too. I would suggest adding a small initial cost for activating the skill: around 5 energy, then lower the upkeep to -8.

The reason why impossible odds has a high upkeep is purely because of quickness being a pretty valuable boon, also not to mention that putting its costs to -8 would mean that you could use Facet of Nature on it and having an additional 50% uptime on quickness would be pretty broken (and Impossible odds is pretty broken as it already is)

Instead, I’d suggest removing the initial 10 energy costs on the skill altogether, but keep the -10 upkeep on it.

I like the idea of removing the initial cost entirely actually much better than my initial suggestion, so I agree with this.

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Posted by: Dreamcore.7632

Dreamcore.7632

I started a Jalis thread with some suggestions from a PvE perspective, so I’m curious what you would think about a couple of these. For Forced Engagement, I suggested (in addition to reduced cost) adding a pull. For Vengeful Hammers, I suggested moving the weakness from Inspiring Reinforcement (which needs all kinds of help, currently) to VH. While that wouldn’t directly address the condition problem you described, it might help somewhat by further mitigating non-condition damage.

I have a feeling they want to keep resistance a Mallyx thing.

The pull idea is interesting, however considering Jalis is associated with the ranged hammer, I’m not sure it makes too much sense if you want to stay at range from your target but I agree this skill needs more than what it has right now.

You could give Weakness to Vengeful Hammers but I feel like this is just adding more to a skill which already has a bunch of random things going on. To be honest this skill really needs a full rework.

Perhaps you are right with Resistance and Mallyx but I hope not since I feel like it makes sense for Jalis to get both Protection and Resistance so he is tanky and survivable against multiple offenses.

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Posted by: Misguided.5139

Misguided.5139

The pull idea is interesting, however considering Jalis is associated with the ranged hammer, I’m not sure it makes too much sense if you want to stay at range from your target but I agree this skill needs more than what it has right now.

You could give Weakness to Vengeful Hammers but I feel like this is just adding more to a skill which already has a bunch of random things going on. To be honest this skill really needs a full rework.

Perhaps you are right with Resistance and Mallyx but I hope not since I feel like it makes sense for Jalis to get both Protection and Resistance so he is tanky and survivable against multiple offenses.

I gave some thought to making FE be a Pull above 600 and a push below 600 (similar to how some of the traits work), but I avoided it since there are no similar skills and I was doing my best to make suggestions I thought they might actually implement, even if they weren’t perfect. I feel like Jalis lacks any sort of way to recover or get quickly into a fight. I don’t think the pull is perfect, but represents an improvement on a skill I have no idea why anyone would use, currently. I considered a leap to target instead, but that seemed too aggressive/encroaching on Shiro’s turf.

As for the hammers, Roy said they wanted the hammers to give the player the ability to stand in the thick of the fight. From that POV, I think the damage reduction, heal, and weakness work well together. I rather like it, even as it currently sits, as a tool for dealing with swarms like raptors. The weakness would make it a better tool for dealing with a single hard target.

One last thing, I disagree with Jalis being associated with the ranged hammer. The legends (aside from Herald) are already so tightly pigeon-holed into one type of play, I think it is better not to consider them that way (which may be part of the reason Vengeful hammers feels so odd to you).

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Touching Glint’s boon interval is plain wrong. Not everywhere in the game you have imbalanced stuff like food you’ve mentioned. It also screws up couple good synergies like Remorseless on Ranger, Blighter’s Boon on Reaper etc. If we are to have a boon Legend, be it.

I’d first like to get my hands on Revenant on live servers after xpac release. Give me a month with it and I will tell you if it needs nerf or not.

Most of complaints about “Glint being too powerful” I see come from the fact that 99% of people fighting Revenant don’t have any idea on how their healing skill works so they just unload burst after burst and with good rotations you can be basically immortal 1v1 because of their lack of knowledge. Give people two weeks of fighting it, not two days, they will learn.
Another complaint – “but you can stack so long boons/25 might”. So what? Can’t DD Cele Ele do the same? Couldn’t Warrior? We don’t have some super burns everywhere on our skills. Excellent idea to bring a Necromancer against Herald, this guy totally melts against competent Necro with boon corruption.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

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Posted by: Dreamcore.7632

Dreamcore.7632

Touching Glint’s boon interval is plain wrong. Not everywhere in the game you have imbalanced stuff like food you’ve mentioned. It also screws up couple good synergies like Remorseless on Ranger, Blighter’s Boon on Reaper etc. If we are to have a boon Legend, be it.

I’d first like to get my hands on Revenant on live servers after xpac release. Give me a month with it and I will tell you if it needs nerf or not.

Most of complaints about “Glint being too powerful” I see come from the fact that 99% of people fighting Revenant don’t have any idea on how their healing skill works so they just unload burst after burst and with good rotations you can be basically immortal 1v1 because of their lack of knowledge. Give people two weeks of fighting it, not two days, they will learn.
Another complaint – “but you can stack so long boons/25 might”. So what? Can’t DD Cele Ele do the same? Couldn’t Warrior? We don’t have some super burns everywhere on our skills. Excellent idea to bring a Necromancer against Herald, this guy totally melts against competent Necro with boon corruption.

+1 for the Necro counter, got me a few times this BWE!

As for the interval, the food has nothing to do with it. With 3s boons and 4s intervals you can still get perma boons with Facet of Nature up, which as I said provides incentive to actually use it rather than cast/cancel for its active.

I didn’t complain about the Glint heal skill, in fact I don’t even think it is that good. Yes, Cele Ele and Warrior can stack extraordinary amounts of Might, but Glint Rev can stack a lot of everything.