Guild Wars 2

I am pumped for Mr. Tagachi to be back in the fold, but unless they ramp up dps across the board, how does this fix anything? In the next beta every cat will run around with Shiro & Mallyx trying to burn things down in an instant. Hence, there will be no build variation. Not good, but am I missing something?

Numbers are the easiest thing to balance.

Making sure the skills work and aren’t over or underpowered in their effects is not.

It’s easy to go “Right, this skill isn’t doing enough damage, let’s make it do x damage instead and see what happens”

I know Anets track record doesn’t prove what i have just said, but for the duration of the beta and release of HoT, the Revenant is going to be Anets new born child, so it’s in their best interest to make sure the class isn’t subpar.

Correct, I know they can fix it, but while things stay the course, Shiro is just gonna pigeon hole kids into one build.

Shro will be mandatory for any melee user. Lets hope his jade wind is unbreakable at least.

We need to see what the challenging group content is first, Colin stated that “players will need to change their tactics and utilize more support” or something along those lines, so this could make the Revenant very strong in this aspect because Ventari w/ staff is very strong at providing support.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Correct, I know they can fix it, but while things stay the course, Shiro is just gonna pigeon hole kids into one build.

but then again… how many working builds are we supposed to make with 4 most likely set in stone legends, a handfull of weapons that are extremely tied to the legends and no weapon swap to begin with?

Cool a traffic jam of stone tablets. I hope you’re right

Basaltface.2786:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Correct, I know they can fix it, but while things stay the course, Shiro is just gonna pigeon hole kids into one build.

but then again… how many working builds are we supposed to make with 4 most likely set in stone legends, a handfull of weapons that are extremely tied to the legends and no weapon swap to begin with?

Well you have a point…

That is a terrifying point actually. Other than adding more legends how can they fix?

DresdenAllblack.1249:

That is a terrifying point actually. Other than adding more legends how can they fix?

By adding more Skills to legends to pick from.

Well, there is a chance the elite spec will have some synergy with Shiro since none of the current legends do. Otherwise I guess people will just need to use Shiro unless they add more diversity with some choice of skills for each legend.

They need to bump dps across the board so you do not feel lacking when you are one of the other legends. Seems a simple fix on paper.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

That is a terrifying point actually. Other than adding more legends how can they fix?

Well how they gonna fix it… i dunno. How i would fix it?

- Adding a normal weapon swap for starters

- Adding either an “empty husk legend” that can be put together by hand or more skills for the legends we got to fine tune your build, maybe even just neutral skills that are
not tied to any specific legend… ya know just “mist shenanigans”

- Reworking all weapons to either change their skills slightly with the active legend
(sorta like ele attuments, just more arround buffs, heals or debuffs and condi
depending on the legend)

- or making the weapons fit atleast 2 or 3 legends by default with effects and skills

- making the traitlines less focused on one legend only cause that is exactly the
(back then) 6\6\rest wherever build stuff i predicted as they revealed the class
mechanic what restricts build diversity big time

-raising the damage drastically on all weapons to be on equal footing and only differ
with the buffs\debuffs\utility and range they bring

- adding a mobility\teleport skill or speed buff to each legend and\or to be mobile in battle and movement in general

- reworking the energy system to only affect utility, heal and elite skill

The weapons aren’t really tied into the legends. The only caveat is the condition legend requires the condition weapons.

But then again, Mallyx legend can be used by berserkers as an anti-condition role : lots of resistance, elite that gives base stat bonuses and application or non condition damage based conditions. All that can be used by a zerk player. So you use say a build of Shiro+Mallyx with Sword/Sword. And once the boss you fight enters it’s heavy condition usage phase, you switch to Mallyx.

Or you fight a boss that is far too hard in melee, just equip a hammer beforehand in Shiro stance.

Or you fight a heavy CC situation, Shiro + Dwarf for protection and stability.

Yes, I forgot…energy cost needs to come down.

They really need to make the traits more generically applicable. The most obvious example of this is the Salvation tree, which is all about the staff and the Ventari Legend. There is very little stuff in the tree that would see any use outside of those two situations.

The Salvation Minor Traits

• Striking a foe who is using a skill blinds them
• Healing Power to Toughness Conversion
• Increase healing to allies

Here, the first one is useful to everyone, the second converts Healing Power, which only works for a build that stacks healing power in the first place, which is essentially a de facto Ventari or Staff build, and the last one only works for Ventari/Staff again since those are the only outgoing healing sources.

The Adept Major trait choices are:

• Blind on heal
• Regen around the Tablet
• Outgoing healing increase

The last two of those only apply to Ventari/Staff since there isn’t any other source of outgoing healing for Revs at this point, and they end up having a similar bottom line effect. And while the blind on heal is theoretically useful for non-Ventari setups, it is very weak if you have a 30+s heal cooldown. (It works almost too well with the Ventari tablet move command).

The Master Major traits are:

• Dodge Rolls remove conditions
• Healing done to allies is increased for a short duration after invoking a legend.
• The healing orbs from staff grant swiftness and regeneration

Again, the first one is generic and supports basically any loadout, but the other two only work for Ventari/Staff setups and again have a similar net effect.

The GM traits:

• Daze nearby foes when using an elite skill
• Energy fragments around the tablet when you use a tablet skill
• Increased outgoing healing

So you have 1 generic trait, and 2 that only work with Ventari or Staff and both of those are different ways to do additional healing.

Out of the twelve traits available in that line, you have 3.5 traits the work for something other than Ventari or Staff. 7 out of the 12 traits directly increase healing done in one way or another.

If you look at similar lines for other classes they have ways to help out other builds that tie in with the theme of the line. A few examples:

Honor for Guardians is focused on party support, but it supplies Empowering Might and Writ of Persistence, which both add damage to several guardian builds. Additionally, most of the traits that are in the line tied more specifically to the Group Support/Sustain role are generic and work for any setup (Vigor on crit, Dodge heals, Endurance regen, Aegis Heals etc.)

Inspiration for Mesmers has 1 trait tied to Focus, 1 trait married to Mantras, and 1 trait tied to Glamours, but the rest of the line would work with basically any setup you could put together for the class if you wanted to do some group supporty healing stuff.

Basaltface.2786:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

That is a terrifying point actually. Other than adding more legends how can they fix?

Well how they gonna fix it… i dunno. How i would fix it?

- Adding a normal weapon swap for starters

- Adding either an “empty husk legend” that can be put together by hand or more skills for the legends we got to fine tune your build, maybe even just neutral skills that are
not tied to any specific legend… ya know just “mist shenanigans”

- Reworking all weapons to either change their skills slightly with the active legend
(sorta like ele attuments, just more arround buffs, heals or debuffs and condi
depending on the legend)

- or making the weapons fit atleast 2 or 3 legends by default with effects and skills

- making the traitlines less focused on one legend only cause that is exactly the
(back then) 6\6\rest wherever build stuff i predicted as they revealed the class
mechanic what restricts build diversity big time

-raising the damage drastically on all weapons to be on equal footing and only differ
with the buffs\debuffs\utility and range they bring

- adding a mobility\teleport skill or speed buff to each legend and\or to be mobile in battle and movement in general

- reworking the energy system to only affect utility, heal and elite skill

this is exactly what i’m hoping for
ANET, pls read this

stof.9341:

The weapons aren’t really tied into the legends. The only caveat is the condition legend requires the condition weapons.

But then again, Mallyx legend can be used by berserkers as an anti-condition role : lots of resistance, elite that gives base stat bonuses and application or non condition damage based conditions. All that can be used by a zerk player. So you use say a build of Shiro+Mallyx with Sword/Sword. And once the boss you fight enters it’s heavy condition usage phase, you switch to Mallyx.

Or you fight a boss that is far too hard in melee, just equip a hammer beforehand in Shiro stance.

Or you fight a heavy CC situation, Shiro + Dwarf for protection and stability.

Or the boss requires you to do a little bit of everything and then you are screwed. “Oh man, i wish i had the (fictional) block skill equipped, but i dont need the rest of the legend it comes with”. " oh come on ,now he goes ranged and i got my swords equipped". “Darn it i cant catch the thief running away cause i got the staff equipped, i also got the dwarf so i could get myself a speed buff to catch up but the staff got no blast finishers”

And so on. Yea… its a stupid example but thats what im afraid of the most at the revenant. No matter how you build, it always boils down to the same deal. There will be always something missing that any other class can fix with either skills, attuments, weapon kits , just a 2nd weapon set that might be used just for utility or a set of utility skills that can be choosen or replaced individually.

What if you get kited by a ranger and you cant really fight back without ranged combat? What if you are ranged with your hammer that gets weaker the closer the enemie is to you and a thief starts putting knives in your backside? You gonna ask him to occ to get your melee weapons equipped? What if you need a speed buff but dont got the dwarf equipped to get the stone road skill for the field? You got the ventari shield bubble up to protect some group members from a hail of ranged attacks while they rez a downed group member and you need to heal on the other side of the room? How you gonna do that? Either you move the tablet over and expose your vulnerable allies or change the legend and make the tablet vanish? Or get downed yourself and loose the tablet and so get them and yourself killed in the progress?

Thats how i see the rev… waaaay too many “what ifs”. But till they dont reveal the full class with all traitlines, mechanics and skills set in stone i gonna hold back with my negatives. I really dont want the class to suck, it would break my heart if it would be trash.

I think a lot of people underestimate just how powerful the hammer can be too. It’s not the fastest weapon, but if you play it right it hits like a truck, especially if you use skill 2 correctly (I can’t recall the name). It is a 2 second recharge skill with 1200 range, and the further you are the more devastating this aoe attack is to enemies. I was hitting 4-6k at max range and with only having to wait 2 seconds again, it can be quite deadly.

Swords wont’ be the only option for damage, and remember you can always change your offhand seeing as we don’t know all the skills yet.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Correct, I know they can fix it, but while things stay the course, Shiro is just gonna pigeon hole kids into one build.

That’s not a profession-specific thing. Every class has a “Pidgeon-holed” build for PvE. It’s called the meta. The solution will be from content that can’t be just burned through with Zerker builds.

Also, this isn’t a given for PvP. Plenty of PvP builds aren’t centered around power-based DPS.

I could care less bout meta. But with the other classes I can still play a number of different ways because I can still burn things down. On Rev I couldn’t, at least this weekend I couldn’t

Dahkeus.8243:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Correct, I know they can fix it, but while things stay the course, Shiro is just gonna pigeon hole kids into one build.

That’s not a profession-specific thing. Every class has a “Pidgeon-holed” build for PvE. It’s called the meta. The solution will be from content that can’t be just burned through with Zerker builds.

Also, this isn’t a given for PvP. Plenty of PvP builds aren’t centered around power-based DPS.

Problem is other classes have options besides meta. May not be as good, but still an additional option.

Revenant doesn’t have that. Why would a person be using Staff in SPvP on revenant without Shiro/Glint? Thats the ultimate question. Thats a whole weapon alone that is pretty much useless besides tanking in PvE.

Still ppl forget few things:

I think Anet should go with Ritualist style of Gw1. So You actualy summon Legends via Weapons, and seal them in, rather than just use their raw power. In the end legend choices will be in Weapons set, rather than a purely skill.

Wielding Dual blades and Hammer will make you use Shiro and Jalis Legends, Dual swords and Staff will let you use Shiro and Ventari etc. Its will bring more choices and more build diversity.

Basaltface.2786:

Or the boss requires you to do a little bit of everything and then you are screwed. “Oh man, i wish i had the (fictional) block skill equipped, but i dont need the rest of the legend it comes with”. " oh come on ,now he goes ranged and i got my swords equipped". “Darn it i cant catch the thief running away cause i got the staff equipped, i also got the dwarf so i could get myself a speed buff to catch up but the staff got no blast finishers”

Actually, the staff got a skill you can use to chase and catchup people XD

Anyway, as far as I’m concerned, nowhere in GW2 do you have a situation where a boss randomly pops out from a wall and engages you without warning. You always know what is coming so you can prepare before the fight. If the fight as a phase with completely required range, then just go in the fight with a hammer. DPS won’t be optimal in the melee phase but it’ll not be that bad.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

I could care less bout meta. But with the other classes I can still play a number of different ways because I can still burn things down. On Rev I couldn’t, at least this weekend I couldn’t

Just consider this : the problem with the revenant weapons was probably that the number tunning wasn’t done at all. For example, the mace/axe set had very bad condition application numbers.

Nobody should assume anything about the revenant weapon coefficients/condition application rates after playing the beta because the numbers are probably all going to change.

Eight Samurai.6840:

I think a lot of people underestimate just how powerful the hammer can be too. It’s not the fastest weapon, but if you play it right it hits like a truck, especially if you use skill 2 correctly (I can’t recall the name). It is a 2 second recharge skill with 1200 range, and the further you are the more devastating this aoe attack is to enemies. I was hitting 4-6k at max range and with only having to wait 2 seconds again, it can be quite deadly.

Swords wont’ be the only option for damage, and remember you can always change your offhand seeing as we don’t know all the skills yet.

It doesn’t have 2s recharge. It doesn’t hit all that strong too and how often are you at 1200 ? any less and it does a lot less dmg and in melee it’s like auto attack. It also often bugs out not doing any dmg at all.

Dahkeus.8243:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Correct, I know they can fix it, but while things stay the course, Shiro is just gonna pigeon hole kids into one build.

That’s not a profession-specific thing. Every class has a “Pidgeon-holed” build for PvE. It’s called the meta. The solution will be from content that can’t be just burned through with Zerker builds.

Also, this isn’t a given for PvP. Plenty of PvP builds aren’t centered around power-based DPS.

Not really. Other classes have other options which may not be as good but are often still good. No such thing with Rev atm.

And once again, most of the DPS revenant issues are due to weapon coefficients and condition application rate from those. Which are just numbers that need tweaking first, and mostly a situation where the weapon set meant to be high direct damage wasn’t available in the first place.

When was the last time you saw a main hand mace warrior in PvE for example?

Me lol, I run mace/mace, or mace/axe. Its far from optimal but Skullcrack is super fun.

We cant have a Ritualist but your gonna bring back Perma-Sin??

skowcia.8257:

Shro will be mandatory for any melee user. Lets hope his jade wind is unbreakable at least.

True, because breaking jade wind sounds terrible.

stof.9341:

And once again, most of the DPS revenant issues are due to weapon coefficients and condition application rate from those. Which are just numbers that need tweaking first, and mostly a situation where the weapon set meant to be high direct damage wasn’t available in the first place.

When was the last time you saw a main hand mace warrior in PvE for example?

That’s fine, but I still (as many others) have a problem with the lack of weapon swap. You just argued (indirectly) that most revenants will be running around with swords (since that’s the high direct damage weapon set). What if I want to switch to hammer to deal with an annoying enemy?

Michal.4513:

Still ppl forget few things:

I think Anet should go with Ritualist style of Gw1. So You actualy summon Legends via Weapons, and seal them in, rather than just use their raw power. In the end legend choices will be in Weapons set, rather than a purely skill.

Wielding Dual blades and Hammer will make you use Shiro and Jalis Legends, Dual swords and Staff will let you use Shiro and Ventari etc. Its will bring more choices and more build diversity.

This makes so much sense, though it would reduce build choice even further, which is already a major concern.

Misguided.5139:

That’s fine, but I still (as many others) have a problem with the lack of weapon swap. You just argued (indirectly) that most revenants will be running around with swords (since that’s the high direct damage weapon set). What if I want to switch to hammer to deal with an annoying enemy?

Well, just equip it? My guardian runs around with a greatsword and a mace/focus in offhand, and switches to a scepter when needed.

stof.9341:

Misguided.5139:

That’s fine, but I still (as many others) have a problem with the lack of weapon swap. You just argued (indirectly) that most revenants will be running around with swords (since that’s the high direct damage weapon set). What if I want to switch to hammer to deal with an annoying enemy?

Well, just equip it? My guardian runs around with a greatsword and a mace/focus in offhand, and switches to a scepter when needed.

^This,

Plus, just as “many others” do not have a problem with the lack of weapon swap.

I assume people that asking for weapon swap are people that cant handle 100% melee and need a ranged option which will carry them. I dont see any problem equipping hammer before “troublesome” pve encounters. Everyone does that already, other than that they run pure melee. Have you even seen a warrior using longbow/rifle or guardian with staff/scepter in speedruns? Lol. Autokick.

skowcia.8257:

I assume people that asking for weapon swap are people that cant handle 100% melee and need a ranged option which will carry them. I dont see any problem equipping hammer before “troublesome” pve encounters. Everyone does that already, other than that they run pure melee. Have you even seen a warrior using longbow/rifle or guardian with staff/scepter in speedruns? Lol. Autokick.

Dungeons aren’t the only PvE, you know…

There’s little to no PvE outside dungeons where you can get caught up irremediably and unpredictably with a melee weapon and cannot switch to a ranged one.

There’s very little situations in fact in outdoor PvE where a melee weapon won’t work well.

Abnaxis.4593:

skowcia.8257:

I assume people that asking for weapon swap are people that cant handle 100% melee and need a ranged option which will carry them. I dont see any problem equipping hammer before “troublesome” pve encounters. Everyone does that already, other than that they run pure melee. Have you even seen a warrior using longbow/rifle or guardian with staff/scepter in speedruns? Lol. Autokick.

Dungeons aren’t the only PvE, you know…

Uhm yeah i um..know? Its even easier to do so in open world. For example teq? Phase 1 use hammer. Phase 2 switch to melee. There are more than enough opportunities to do so – im not even sure if it worth swapping to melee set considering the hitboxes actually.

skowcia.8257:

Uhm yeah i um..know? Its even easier to do so in open world. For example teq? Phase 1 use hammer. Phase 2 switch to melee. There are more than enough opportunities to do so – im not even sure if it worth swapping to melee set considering the hitboxes actually.

Then clearly no class needs weapon swapping. If it’s that easy, should we not consider getting rid of weapon swap entirely?

In PvE, most classes use weapon swap for having extra cooldowns, not as a convenience swap between melee and ranged :o

stof.9341:

In PvE, most classes use weapon swap for having extra cooldowns, not as a convenience swap between melee and ranged :o

True, but could you imagine the mesmer being stuck in greatsword? (Mind you, it does feel that way with mesmer noobs at time in PvE already.)

Yep, confirmed awesome.