How does condi renegade look?
Just browse these forums……
Come on, man, I have obviously see the forums. If you have nothing to add to me question, then GTFO. I didn’t just think of the question without doing research, but everything is talking about how SB doesn’t fit right ATM. I have gone through pages before I asked. Real answers over kitten remarks pls. You obviously think I’m lazy because I couldn’t find my answer on the first few pages, google, or reddit, but it is so much lazier to post something as kittenish as that.
I want to know from someone on the PTS if condi rev, running m/a and SB is going to be viable in fractals/dungeons/raids.
I would love it if someone that actually cares about the community, and not just someone who will inevitably complain about a player with a lack of knowledge would give an actual answer, and not just some 12 year old “I’m smarter than everyone, and we should all know everything about this game, even new players,” kitten answer.
Again, I’m just looking for a brief play-style if anyone has one, and thank you
OP is pretty much right. If you have nothing to add that answers the question then just don’t post. Go attention kitten elsewhere.
As for Condition Renegade… it feels meh to me imo. I’ve seen some people saying a power build works “ok” for it.
Condi Rev isn’t even in that bad of a spot now is it? They’re 3k behind tempest which isn’t that bad. The way everyone made it sound I expected Condi Rev to be garbage but according to qtfy.eu it’s at 3.2k dps and the top classes are 3.5k or 3.4k.
[DIS] Dissentient – Streetlamp Lé Moose (Best Ranger North Korea)
Kalla is a straight upgrade to Condi Rev in pve. It will be more than fine for Fractals/Raids/Etc. Kalla’s utilities really shine in group content and are far superior to Jalis’s hammers. The hammers actually only add about 3.5k dps by themselves, including crit tormet procs, to the current meta condi rev build (tested it with full meta gear/realistic everything).
So it’s a good choice. This forum is just exceptionally critical, but it’s really only about 10-20 people repeating the same complaints over and over again. There was community stigma with revenant for awhile because it fell out of speed clear meta for a time, but that stigma is going away. Looking at the raw numbers there isn’t any reason for people to be so critical against revenant anymore.
If you want to play revenant, have fun with it and spend the time to learn it so that you can excel with it
Condi rev is solid. Renegade is going to be an upgrade, because of Kalla’s Fervor and also because the renegade utilities do more damage than the hammers if you’re in a group.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Condi renegade is lame because the Kalla traitline only affects bleeds.
Bleeds are only applied through shortbow, which is weak garbage at the moment.
The condi rev’s strongest weaponset, mace/axe is burning/torment/poison. Not bleed. Which means the Kalla traitline does absolutely nothing for mace/axe.
The other problem is condi rev actually uses skills besides autoattack, which is another problem because Kalla utilities and F skills are energy intensive. So you can’t maintain a condi rotation while using the utilities well.
More importantly, the two damaging utilities on Kalla have problems.
One works like precision strike/unrelenting assault, in that it splits a finite number of projectile across targets. So it gets weaker the more targets there are.
The other has an ICD on triggering, so it scales poorly with a group.
What’s worse, the effect of the extremely expensive Kalla utilities are super weak by yourself, so you only benefit from them when allies stand on them (but you get diminishing returns).
It’s just a reaally bad legend numerically.
The spec would be virtually fixed if the traits that affect bleeding also affected torment/poison/burning (so make it flat condi duration/damage increase instead of just bleed), energy costs were removed off F skills, the summons were immune to CC and resistant to aoe damage, and energy costs were removed off weapons.
Shortbow would also need significant numerical buffs.
Thank you all for your responses. I still feel I’ll be running with a SB in my condi build, but hopefully they will buff some things from the way people talk. At least my spec is doing ok for now.
Looking at the raw numbers there isn’t any reason for people to be so critical against revenant anymore.
I think that Zenith explained it well. The Renegade traitline adds fervor so condi Rev using mace + axe will improve its dps. But the traitline doesn’t synergizes itself with torment burn, chill or even venom: it focused on bleeds.
Bleeds are only provided by the shortbow, and any time you swap from mace + axe to any other weapon (including the shortbow) you dps will damatically fall. The shortbow’s only usable skills are the (weak) auto attack and the #5, the rest are expensive gimmicks which also doesn’t work over not flat terrain; it provides no mobility, defensive or utility skills. The F keys do provide weak skills at high energy cost.
So Renegade looks decent for PvE: chose your Mallyx + Shiro (or Jalis) legends, your mace + axe loadup and enhance your dps with the Renegade traitline. But if you were looking to change your playstyle, or you were interested in using Kalla or the shortbow for PvP, WvW roaming or WvW raids you will hit a wall: they just don’t perform.
Looking at the raw numbers there isn’t any reason for people to be so critical against revenant anymore.
I think that Zenith explained it well. The Renegade traitline adds fervor so condi Rev using mace + axe will improve its dps. But the traitline doesn’t synergizes itself with torment burn, chill or even venom: it focused on bleeds.
Bleeds are only provided by the shortbow, and any time you swap from mace + axe to any other weapon (including the shortbow) you dps will damatically fall. The shortbow’s only usable skills are the (weak) auto attack and the #5, the rest are expensive gimmicks which also doesn’t work over not flat terrain; it provides no mobility, defensive or utility skills. The F keys do provide weak skills at high energy cost.
So Renegade looks decent for PvE: chose your Mallyx + Shiro (or Jalis) legends, your mace + axe loadup and enhance your dps with the Renegade traitline. But if you were looking to change your playstyle, or you were interested in using Kalla or the shortbow for PvP, WvW roaming or WvW raids you will hit a wall: they just don’t perform.
Bleed seems strange. They need to change everything to poison, and maybe add some torment to an ability or two.
Bleed seems strange. They need to change everything to poison, and maybe add some torment to an ability or two.
Probably won’t happen because they already linked the lore of each skill with the effect they chose. Anyway, the worst part is seing how weak overall falls compared to the other two short bows in the game:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_bow
Not only has the worts cast times of all of them (while also costing energy) and the worst average damage, but also lacks any mobility/defensive tool; Ranger’s has one skill with evassion + swiftness, one with cripple and one with daze/stun, Thief’s has one evassion which cripples, one immobilize and a teleport + blind (Thief’s sb is also way stronger than Ranger’s and Renegade’s due it’s skills are a lot more spammable).
A pistol with a nice torment based auto attack and two empty skills would serve us better because would let us to wield an off hand sword or axe for the defensive/cc tools.
Even if they crank the damage of the shortbow to 5k autos still won’t fix how unimaginative/unusable are the rest of the tools.
Looking at the raw numbers there isn’t any reason for people to be so critical against revenant anymore.
I think that Zenith explained it well. The Renegade traitline adds fervor so condi Rev using mace + axe will improve its dps. But the traitline doesn’t synergizes itself with torment burn, chill or even venom: it focused on bleeds.
Bleeds are only provided by the shortbow, and any time you swap from mace + axe to any other weapon (including the shortbow) you dps will damatically fall. The shortbow’s only usable skills are the (weak) auto attack and the #5, the rest are expensive gimmicks which also doesn’t work over not flat terrain; it provides no mobility, defensive or utility skills. The F keys do provide weak skills at high energy cost.
So Renegade looks decent for PvE: chose your Mallyx + Shiro (or Jalis) legends, your mace + axe loadup and enhance your dps with the Renegade traitline. But if you were looking to change your playstyle, or you were interested in using Kalla or the shortbow for PvP, WvW roaming or WvW raids you will hit a wall: they just don’t perform.
The damage from the bleed spirit and the elite spirit is insanely high compared to Shiro or Jalis in group content. On top of that, sure, mace/axe is energy intensive, but it’s partly only energy intensive because the optimal raid rotation right now uses two upkeeps. If you’re not using any upkeeps there is more than enough room to cast the bleed spirit and then pop the elite halfway through your cooldown before legend swap.
On top of that we also get bleeds from geomancy and potentially sigil of earth, so while mace/axe doesn’t inflict bleeding the damage increases will affect those sigils and the bleed spirit, which is still a net gain in terms of dps.
Unless they tone something about Renegade down I’m predicting 35k dps realistic bare minimum.
Renegade needs a bunch of things changed to make it better and less clunky overall, but even if it was released right this second in it’s demo form it would still be a sizeable damage increase due to it’s utilities and traits. They can’t buff it too much, honestly. Condi rev can already pull 32k as it is, realistic. Highest damage on large hitboxes is 37k.
OP is also asking specifically about pve, so pvp/wvw aren’t relevant to this conversation
Condi renegade is lame because the Kalla traitline only affects bleeds.
Uhm, isn’t that a bit.. wrong? Kalla’s Fervor adds 30 Ferocity and 2% to Condition Damage per stack. With Lasting Legacy, you will be running around with +300 Ferocity and +20% Condition Damage. While the other traits are more focused around Bleed duration and damage, that is in no way a bad thing when we have a pretty easy access to applying Bleed stacks with Renegade (more so in a group scenario). It adds a new condition for us to bless our enemies with. Renegade buffs our Bleeds, while Corruption buffs our Torment. Kalla’s Fervor buffs both.
Don’t forget that Endless Enmity adds 7s Fury when you critically strike a foe below 50% health (8s ICD), and that Brutal Momentum increase your chance to critically strike while at full endurance. It felt a bit awkward though; maybe the 8s ICD on BM is what is making it feel a bit weird (I’d like to see that 33% Critical Chance increase be a permanent reward whenever you are at max endurance, as a trade-off for not dodging — currently it seems to turn off with a 8s ICD whenever you gain Fury, since that grants Vigor; bug?), but they are relatively decent minor traits.
Renegade utilities are very energy hungry, but I am pretty sure going Mallyx/Kalla is miles better than Mallyx/Jalis which a good chunk of us condition Revenants are currently running. Hopefully before release, they have tuned some of the energy costs (and fixed issues with pathing and skills not working properly (Sevenshot..).
Vella Absconditus | Human Mesmer
Seafarer’s Rest
Seafarer’s Rest
(edited by Absconditus.6804)
It looks good imo.
Sb is bad in single target, but has great condi cleave.
Kalla utils give solid team dps, and mace axe is of course still great even paired with kalla bleed traits.
So now rev has ranged options, huge dps and group dps boosts, and good survival.
What a circus. Complete with clowns and monkeys that do tricks.
Condi renegade is lame because the Kalla traitline only affects bleeds.
Uhm, isn’t that a bit.. wrong? Kalla’s Fervor adds 30 Ferocity and 2% to Condition Damage per stack. With Lasting Legacy, you will be running around with +300 Ferocity and +20% Condition Damage. While the other traits are more focused around Bleed duration and damage, that is in no way a bad thing when we have a pretty easy access to applying Bleed stacks with Renegade. It adds a new condition for us to bless our enemies with. Renegade buffs our Bleeds, while Corruption buffs our Torment. Kalla’s Fervor buffs both.
but at what cost? sure damage is buffed but survivability is severely hit. And there will be no point in time when someone wants to take the bleed traits because they are useless because there is no way to garner enough stacks and duration. There is only one good bleed applicator which is the summon utility, and that is useless because it’s avoidable, can be killed/cc, and needs teammates to be worth it. It’s pointless to build traits for shortbow too because it’s so weak and has really bad tools/no tools in its kit. Seeing how everything is basically useless compared to other classes and the revs other options, I see no point in dropping glint in order to get kalla’s fervor. It’s not even a good glass cannon. I’m sure it’ll see its uses is pve, and wvw, but it’s gimmicky. It also clashes with mallyx, which I don’t get why they designed it that way.
It also clashes with mallyx, which I don’t get why they designed it that way.
In what way is it clashing with Mallyx? By Kalla’s Fervor adding +20% Condition Damage which benefits all our conditions? What is the Renegade traits doing that makes it straight up clash with Mallyx?
Personally I think Renegade is meant to be a PvE-focused toolkit. The next specialization may be more PvP-focused. You can see this across all the new specializations, they seem to be focusing on certain game modes more so than all of them. They are specializing. Maybe you don’t think it’s ok for them to design them that way, but I am personally alright with it. And it’s not like you can’t bring Renegade traits into Structured. You are in no way obligated to use the legendary stance, the short bow, etc. — or maybe you do want to bring the short bow, but not the stance, or the stance, but not the short bow. Maybe you want to run Mallyx/Shiro with Mace/Sword and Short Bow? There’s options to be had which doesn’t cripple your defenses entirely. Maybe you even got an idea for using Scorchrazor and Spiritcrush to zone out and knock down enemies before nuking them with Mallyx’s Unyielding Anguish?
Maybe you want to use Phase Traversal, Grasping Shadows, DP into Shackling Wave, weapon swap to Short Bow, Spiritcrush, Scorchrazor as they get up, legend swap to Mallyx (might have been necessary sooner, didn’t exactly sit here and calculate energy costs and time between skills used for regenerated amounts — I’m pulling a combo out of my bum), Unyielding Anguish. Stuff like that? Not only that of course, you aren’t a robot that only does one thing, as that won’t always work, sometimes you need to use Duelist’s Preparation for defenses and not just to be annoying, etc., but there’s some option to be had with the new kit.
Vella Absconditus | Human Mesmer
Seafarer’s Rest
Seafarer’s Rest
(edited by Absconditus.6804)
It also clashes with mallyx, which I don’t get why they designed it that way.
In what way is it clashing with Mallyx? By Kalla’s Fervor adding +20% Condition Damage which benefits all our conditions? What is the Renegade traits doing that makes it straight up clash with Mallyx?
Personally I think Renegade is meant to be a PvE-focused toolkit. The next specialization may be more PvP-focused. You can see this across all the new specializations, they seem to be focusing on certain game modes more so than all of them. They are specializing. Maybe you don’t think it’s ok for them to design them that way, but I am personally alright with it. And it’s not like you can’t bring Renegade traits into Structured. You are in no way obligated to use the legendary stance, the short bow, etc. — or maybe you do want to bring the short bow, but not the stance, or the stance, but not the short bow. Maybe you want to run Mallyx/Shiro with Mace/Sword and Short Bow? There’s options to be had which doesn’t cripple your defenses entirely. Maybe you even got an idea for using Scorchrazor and Spiritcrush to zone out and knock down enemies before nuking them with Mallyx’s Unyielding Anguish?
Maybe you want to use Phase Traversal, Grasping Shadows, DP into Shackling Wave, weapon swap to Short Bow, Spiritcrush, Scorchrazor as they get up, legend swap to Mallyx (might have been necessary sooner, didn’t exactly sit here and calculate energy costs and time between skills used for regenerated amounts — I’m pulling a combo out of my bum), Unyielding Anguish. Stuff like that? Not only that of course, you aren’t a robot that only does one thing, as that won’t always work, sometimes you need to use Duelist’s Preparation for defenses and not just to be annoying, etc., but there’s some option to be had with the new kit.
It doesn’t provide any defense that mallyx needs while playing condi dps. None of the traits support mallyx or condi dps besides kallas fervor, the utilities are terrible for condi dps, the short bow is terrible for everything. you are not going to want shortbow in its current iteration for a backup weapon. Basically it doesn’t synergize with mallyx, and glint still offers more at least in terms of utilities. in terms of damage, kalla has a (slight) edge over glint but it’s still not worth it in my opinion. I for one won’t ditch all my survivability for a damage buff.
Condi renegade is lame because the Kalla traitline only affects bleeds.
Uhm, isn’t that a bit.. wrong? Kalla’s Fervor adds 30 Ferocity and 2% to Condition Damage per stack. With Lasting Legacy, you will be running around with +300 Ferocity and +20% Condition Damage. While the other traits are more focused around Bleed duration and damage, that is in no way a bad thing when we have a pretty easy access to applying Bleed stacks with Renegade (more so in a group scenario). It adds a new condition for us to bless our enemies with. Renegade buffs our Bleeds, while Corruption buffs our Torment. Kalla’s Fervor buffs both.
Don’t forget that Endless Enmity adds 7s Fury when you critically strike a foe below 50% health (8s ICD), and that Brutal Momentum increase your chance to critically strike while at full endurance. It felt a bit awkward though; maybe the 8s ICD on BM is what is making it feel a bit weird (I’d like to see that 33% Critical Chance increase be a permanent reward whenever you are at max endurance, as a trade-off for not dodging — currently it seems to turn off with a 8s ICD whenever you gain Fury, since that grants Vigor; bug?), but they are relatively decent minor traits.
Renegade utilities are very energy hungry, but I am pretty sure going Mallyx/Kalla is miles better than Mallyx/Jalis which a good chunk of us condition Revenants are currently running. Hopefully before release, they have tuned some of the energy costs (and fixed issues with pathing and skills not working properly (Sevenshot..).
Kalla’s Fervor is not a trait bonus, it’s a spec mechanic. Only the grandmaster trait extends it. You don’t get bleeds of any importance outside shortbow, a marginal amount only through geomancy procs and the utility, which will make less than 10% of your DPS. The vast amount of your DPS will still come from burning and torment.
Fury and crit chance are useless because every raid has a druid or warrior giving permanent fury, and cir chance is already easily capped via spotter aura from ranger and viper armor.
Kalla is a completely conflicted traitline that tries to help both power and condition builds via traits but does so rather weakly.
OP is also asking specifically about pve, so pvp/wvw aren’t relevant to this conversation
Ok, fine, but answer this question (because I’m unable to figure from your post): short bow will be or won’t be the main weapon for Renegades in PvE raids?
OP is also asking specifically about pve, so pvp/wvw aren’t relevant to this conversation
Ok, fine, but answer this question (because I’m unable to figure from your post): short bow will be or won’t be the main weapon for Renegades in PvE raids?
Shortbow will most definitely not be the main weapon for renegades in raids. However, this is mostly due to the energy system and the lack of rotations based on cooldowns. Thieves only use 1 weapon set for raw dps as well due to this same sort of thing.
Shortbow and bleed duration however are useful in boosting overall dps for condi rev though. It allows condi rev to do things like green circles on VG, clear orbs/turrets/shards on gors/sab/xera, and still do damage while having agony on cairn among other things. The lack of a ranged option before meant that if a condi rev ever had to leave melee it lost a lot of damage and shortbow can be useful to fill that hole a bit.
Thank you all for the answers, I think I’ve figured out my playstyle. keep the discussion going if anyone wants.
Razorclaw is definitely not a negligible source of damage. If all things go right, it actually puts out quite the DPS. 162.5 base bleed ticks is nothing to sneeze at, and under alacrity the recharge is only 11 seconds. If you hold off legend swap for two seconds, you can use this skill twice then immediately swap back to Mallyx. That’s a total of 325 base bleed ticks in 11 seconds.
Granted, it is extremely situational to have a group of teammates beating on a single target that is stationary within Razorclaw’s field for 21 seconds, but when that situation arises, those 325 base bleeds are substantial. It is enough to make Heartpiercer and Blood Fury worthwhile traits in PVE.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Razorclaw is definitely not a negligible source of damage. If all things go right, it actually puts out quite the DPS. 162.5 base bleed ticks is nothing to sneeze at, and under alacrity the recharge is only 11 seconds. If you hold off legend swap for two seconds, you can use this skill twice then immediately swap back to Mallyx. That’s a total of 325 base bleed ticks in 11 seconds.
Granted, it is extremely situational to have a group of teammates beating on a single target that is stationary within Razorclaw’s field for 21 seconds, but when that situation arises, those 325 base bleeds are substantial. It is enough to make Heartpiercer and Blood Fury worthwhile traits in PVE.
I’m pretty sure all your spirits despawn when you swap legends… I could be wrong though as it was impossible to test in combat as they just insta died.
Also, due to the “interval” style cooldown and pulsing nature of the buff (rather than just getting 10 stacks like thief poison), it will actually work out to be less than 50 stacks for a group… Probably more like 120 bleed ticks. Although if this scales off YOUR stats and counts as YOUR dps (like thief poison), it could be substantial… But if it scales off their stats, like sun spirit, it’ll be kind of crappy.
(edited by narcx.3570)
I have always been a fan of melee condi specs, and with the the SB condi focus, I was wondering how a condi rev was going to compete against other classes (PvE). I’m also planning on running the new guardian spec, and continuing to level my warrior for his zerker spec, so I won’t be focusing on a single condi (torment, fire, etc)x but going for an all around condi enchant with viper’s, but rev is looking to be my main as of right now.
I just wanted to know if rev was going to be viable, or if he was just another gimmicky wet noodle until a hopeful balance change.
Thank you for the info from all those testers, and shove off to all the haters.
My Open world PvE experience was good as long as you do not use SB. I used mace/axe and renegade offered good damage and sustain ability buff. Though, with trial and error the only utility worth spending energy on is the heroic.
If you already play condi rev it is pretty much the same experience with slight upgrade to damage.