Guild Wars 2

Just posting some food for thought, and this post’s argument probably isn’t the type you’d expect at first from the title.

Glint/Shiro herald with marauder, sw/shield and either staff or hammer is assured to be an extremely powerful build in conquest. It has solid damage, good support through boons, and most importantly, good access to active defenses through evades and crystalline hibernation. I’m not going to argue whether or not this set of skills makes revenant overpowered or not, since thats a waste of time. Instead I’m going to compare the build diversity of the class to that of the class that is among the lowest in viable pvp build diversity.

Now the crux of my argument, comparing it to D/D Elementalist is that I fear that every other legend besides glint and shiro pales in comparison to what the two of them bring to the table. Mallyx lost a lot of its niche and utility when it was rebalanced, and the supremacy of burn damage in this game makes it still a subpar condition spec in high tier pvp (condi rev also has limited weaponset choices and horrible active defense against focus fire). Jalis provides a tanky brawler/CC playstyle without the and without too much sustain and only some active defense against CC. Ventari provides sustain, but no useful active defense or ability to negate focus fire. Meanwhile glint provides every boon your team would want in most situations, a heal skill that doubles as an active defense, and shiro provides enough capture point rotation power, evade/stunbreak quickness and CC to hold it together. The only true weakness of the build is sustained condition pressure in a 1v1 (allies can cleanse you in teamfights), and even then, crystalline hibernation and the glint heal mitigate this weakness quite well to be quite managable and balanced.

Based on my testing, most of the condition/tank/healer builds with corresponding weapons and amulets and traits felt lackluster compared to marauder glint shiro. These builds had issues because of limited useful weaponsets for their overlyspecialized niches (such as mace/axe only viable weapons for condi) and generally poor access to stunbreaks and active defense. Ironically glint/shiro, being overly specialized towards direct damage felt the most useful and versatile in each different scenario, in part because of its high amounts of active defenses, stunbreaks and multitude of useful weaponsets (you can take any combination of sword, staff, hammer, or any offhand and make it work very well, other builds feel more limited in that regard).

Compare this to D/D elementalist. For years all they’ve had was water/arcane traits to spam heals and defenses and condition cleanses just to stay alive, and they later gained good damge/mightstacking last April and have been stuck that way ever since. Any build thats a major deviation from water/arcane/defensive cantrip utilities has been completely overshadowed by a much higher margin than the comparative meta and non-meta builds on other classes. You could run a decent burst build with fresh air, but it sucked compared to every other dps build in pvp. You could try a condition build almost viably after they reworked conditions, but it didn’t have the sustain to be worth using. D/P thief and contemporary theif build diversity in spvp is another case study that highlights the disparities i build diversity of the revenant.

So now, this is not a nerf-herald thread. Its simply a plea to critically think about the viability of other legends/builds/playstyles in comparision with the build that has emerged as the almost definite pvp meta build for the class based on the betas. The thing I want most of all in this game is viable build diversity, and thats somethingI will always advocate for.

Granted we don’t know if many other buffs have happened to mallyx/ventari/jalis for launch, but I think its something we should keep in mind moving forward as we figure out the full potential of the Revenant profession in spvp.

Anyways, discuss.

tl;dr- for those of you thinking I’m comparing them in terms of lack of counters or overpoweredness, thats not what I’m doing, I’m comparing their lack of viable build diversity.

didnt read

d/d has no counter
Reaper handles Rev quite well, so no.

Azure.8670:

didnt read

d/d has no counter
Reaper handles Rev quite well, so no.

D/D ele’s are countered by signet necros. They can easily corrupt boons, which gimps d/d damage without might stacks, they can send conditions back on the ele and they can throw chills and fears down to break the ele rotation which causes huge gaps in their offense and defense.

Drekor.5217:

Azure.8670:

didnt read

d/d has no counter
Reaper handles Rev quite well, so no.

D/D ele’s are countered by signet necros. They can easily corrupt boons, which gimps d/d damage without might stacks, they can send conditions back on the ele and they can throw chills and fears down to break the ele rotation which causes huge gaps in their offense and defense.

a well played SD engi or hambow warrior can wrech them too, since interrupting their chains, don’t get get much hit and burst them is what they suffer

Gaaroth.2567:

Drekor.5217:

Azure.8670:

didnt read

d/d has no counter
Reaper handles Rev quite well, so no.

D/D ele’s are countered by signet necros. They can easily corrupt boons, which gimps d/d damage without might stacks, they can send conditions back on the ele and they can throw chills and fears down to break the ele rotation which causes huge gaps in their offense and defense.

a well played SD engi or hambow warrior can wrech them too, since interrupting their chains, don’t get get much hit and burst them is what they suffer

Dont know that it compares but I’ve had a lot of experience 1v1 fighting d/d eles in wvw on my warrior. Have never lost to one, but at the same time 90% of the time the fight ends with neither of us dying and just walking away.

td;dr for ppl that dindt bother to read – revenant is locked into Shiro/Glint like ele in arcana/water lines.

And i disagree with reaper, sd engi or hambow countering rev unless you run some subpar build. Espesially hambows as they just cry at my double stab on dodge.

Oh so I see you’re running retribution. Well what trait line are you giving up for that, herald or invocation?

Burtnik.5218:

td;dr for ppl that dindt bother to read – revenant is locked into Shiro/Glint like ele in arcana/water lines.

And i disagree with reaper, sd engi or hambow countering rev unless you run some subpar build. Espesially hambows as they just cry at my double stab on dodge.

SD engi and hambow was refered to D/D ele not revenant. and as pointed out, ofc, if they don’t disengage, which is a win in PVP when fightin on point

Burtnik.5218:

td;dr for ppl that dindt bother to read – revenant is locked into Shiro/Glint like ele in arcana/water lines.

And i disagree with reaper, sd engi or hambow countering rev unless you run some subpar build. Espesially hambows as they just cry at my double stab on dodge.

A side question. Why is shiro(devastation) line a must? Why can’t invocation line be taken instead? It doesn’t seem too much weaker compared to devastation.

invocation > retribution, don’t need stability on dodge.

marauder revenant can easily be condibombed, even more if you don’t run staff.

the reason why those two legends are kind of a must have atm are because the other ones are a bit undertuned. give roy a bit of time and keep posting feedback and i’m sure he’ll get mallyx and jalis in shape. ventari is a different thing because the problem is the way it works with moving around the tablet.

something else that i really don’t understand is why people are so fixated on marauder. if you play herald right you get the damage output of any other marauder build while using celestial/soldier amulet.

Ah..howered i still doubt that hambow can take ele 1v1, hammer is quite telegraphed.

I give up invocation as after all..devastation provides small amount of healing which is more helpfun than invocation. Not to mention life stealing bypasses such things as endure pain etc.

Jekkt.6045:

invocation > retribution, don’t need stability on dodge.

marauder revenant can easily be condibombed, even more if you don’t run staff.

Sadly no. Unless you want to feel like a necro – ping pong. You cant really secure stomps, you have to carefully use UA (i teached my skullcrack friend already to catch out rev right as they finish UA so enjoy 4sec stuns once more ppl learn it)

Staff wont save you to condi either, better to run hammer if you want to prevent condi in the first place.

And i dont understand ppl running marauder too – berserker all the way as rev can affort it.

Jekkt.6045:

revenant can easily be condibombed

Shiro/Glint definitely is extremely easy to condi-bomb since the only condi removal is from Staff or.. The trait in Invocation. 1 condi removal on Legend Swap. I mean.. I guess it can sometimes save you.

I wish Glint had a 2-3 condi removal on its heal. <.<

I’m fine without stab – but I really really hate not having any condi clear outside of a semi-weak trait.

Burtnik.5218:

Ah..howered i still doubt that hambow can take ele 1v1, hammer is quite telegraphed.

I give up invocation as after all..devastation provides small amount of healing which is more helpfun than invocation. Not to mention life stealing bypasses such things as endure pain etc.

Jekkt.6045:

invocation > retribution, don’t need stability on dodge.

marauder revenant can easily be condibombed, even more if you don’t run staff.

Sadly no. Unless you want to feel like a necro – ping pong. You cant really secure stomps, you have to carefully use UA (i teached my skullcrack friend already to catch out rev right as they finish UA so enjoy 4sec stuns once more ppl learn it)

Staff wont save you to condi either, better to run hammer if you want to prevent condi in the first place.

And i dont understand ppl running marauder too – berserker all the way as rev can affort it.

staff and a generosity sigil can work wonders, it’s 4 condis cleansed on a 10s cooldown. you won’t really run that on a dps revenant though but i’m not running a full dps revenant build anyway.

tbh nobody cares about scullcrack warriors. they are rare and useless so why build for something that you won’t encounter 99,9% of the time?

as a revenant it’s also not really your job to secure stomps, but to cleave.

Fel.2319:

Jekkt.6045:

revenant can easily be condibombed

Shiro/Glint definitely is extremely easy to condi-bomb since the only condi removal is from Staff or.. The trait in Invocation. 1 condi removal on Legend Swap. I mean.. I guess it can sometimes save you.

I wish Glint had a 2-3 condi removal on its heal. <.<

I’m fine without stab – but I really really hate not having any condi clear outside of a semi-weak trait.

i fell like that’s fine, it makes things interesting and gives revenant a counter.

Jekkt.6045:

staff and a generosity sigil can work wonders, it’s 4 condis cleansed on a 10s cooldown. you won’t really run that on a dps revenant though but i’m not running a full dps revenant build anyway.

tbh nobody cares about scullcrack warriors. they are rare and useless so why build for something that you won’t encounter 99,9% of the time?

Staff has 15cd, generosity 10. Its 3 condi total when most condi builds can put 8 condi on you so unless youre lucky with rng it may not save you at all.

You also missed the picture about catching rev out of UA. Its not just skullcrack, its me with jade winds. Its reaper with chill to the bone (unbreakable), its chrono with gravity well. Its anyone that can time their cc.

You also can pressure much better with stab on you as know you dont have to fear cc. See that pesky lb ranger? Dodge for stab and go for him. Fear not pint blank wont do a kitten. See that rifle engi? Fear not overshoot wont do any harm either.

While dev/invo/herald builds had decent damage they also been squishy to the point where people just stunlocked them to death.

And rev is not made to stomps? Please explain me why you wouldnt make use of quickness on demand to stomp ppl?

I’d rather point my finger at Scrapper rather than Power Revenant when we’re talking about “replacing” DD Ele which may not happen in the first place at all.

But I don’t deny the fact that you might be right, Herald has one thing vanilla Revenant lacks and what is needed in current PvP – “oh kitten” button.
Many aspects of Revenant are still IMO work in progress and we haven’t seen the release changes either.

Burtnik.5218:

Jekkt.6045:

staff and a generosity sigil can work wonders, it’s 4 condis cleansed on a 10s cooldown. you won’t really run that on a dps revenant though but i’m not running a full dps revenant build anyway.

tbh nobody cares about scullcrack warriors. they are rare and useless so why build for something that you won’t encounter 99,9% of the time?

Staff has 15cd, generosity 10. Its 3 condi total when most condi builds can put 8 condi on you so unless youre lucky with rng it may not save you at all.

You also missed the picture about catching rev out of UA. Its not just skullcrack, its me with jade winds. Its reaper with chill to the bone (unbreakable), its chrono with gravity well. Its anyone that can time their cc.

You also can pressure much better with stab on you as know you dont have to fear cc. See that pesky lb ranger? Dodge for stab and go for him. Fear not pint blank wont do a kitten. See that rifle engi? Fear not overshoot wont do any harm either.

While dev/invo/herald builds had decent damage they also been squishy to the point where people just stunlocked them to death.

And rev is not made to stomps? Please explain me why you wouldnt make use of quickness on demand to stomp ppl?

staff 15s 2 cleanse
generosity 10s 1 cleanse
invocation swap 10s 1 cleanse

if you predict crucial ccs and dodge them it won’t matter anyway. if they stun you after UA then you won’t care either because you have enough stunbreaks with invocation.

and i mentioned this before, i’m not running berserk or marauder, that’s why i am picking invocation and it works perfectly for my role and for what i am running.

why i wouldn’t use quickness to stomp? easy, because i use quickness to cleave and kill both the downed person and the person that is resing.

Azure.8670:

didnt read

d/d has no counter
Reaper handles Rev quite well, so no.

Well at least you told me you didn’t read before you posted something completely irrelevant to what I was discussing.

I was comparing revenant to elementalist in terms of viable pvp build diversity.

What’s wrong with taking Mallyx instead of Glint? All the buffs that the Glint Facets give are available via One with Nature, and Resistance-on-demand alone seems to offer a lot more than perma-boons and the Facet actives.

Shiro + Mallyx, Sword and Shield + Staff, Invocation + Devastation + Herald.

That seems like the way to go.

no stunbreak on mallyx and the condi pressure is also not that great. the heal is also inferior.

Jekkt.6045:

no stunbreak on mallyx and the condi pressure is also not that great. the heal is also inferior.

No need to use torment abilities just because they’re available to you. Just spam Pain Absorption – there’s no cool down on it.

You get Stun Breaks on Legend Swap, and Shiro has Stun Breaks on demand. Yes, you will be vulnerable to CC in the 10 seconds after you have just swapped to Mallyx – but I find that an acceptable price for going from virtually no condition removal to complete immunity to conditions.

Iohanna.4863:

Jekkt.6045:

no stunbreak on mallyx and the condi pressure is also not that great. the heal is also inferior.

No need to use torment abilities just because they’re available to you. Just spam Pain Absorption – there’s no cool down on it.

You get Stun Breaks on Legend Swap, and Shiro has Stun Breaks on demand. Yes, you will be vulnerable to CC in the 10 seconds after you have just swapped to Mallyx – but I find that an acceptable price for going from virtually no condition removal to complete immunity to conditions.

BWE2 and before I’d say the mallyx was actually pretty viable (and the best 1v1 build for the class by a good margin), however its condition pressure took a huge hit when Roy gutted the condition copy mechanic, meaning it can’t condi bomb effectively in teamfights anymore, and unyielding anguish can no longer be used to stop stomps/rezzes, so why even both when your torment ticks will do so little compared to the utter lack of utility? Pain absorption’s energy cost is a tad high.

Mallyx builds can still remove boons fairly well, but various necromancer/reaper and mesmer/chronomancer builds can still provide better boon removal over time (and in AoE too).

Edit: your build seems odd. I think a power build (more example of bad build diversity) could take corruption traits (although its a bit inferior of a choice) but the mallyx utilities don’t do much for it at all compared to shiro. Even jalis feels better, though it still has its flaws.

Huge issue with comparison to D/D Ele.

How does a Glint/Shiro build reliably deal against condition spam builds? It can’t.

How does Glint/Shiro break combat and escape like a D/D Ele can do (with Fiery Great Sword and Lightning Flash)? It can’t.

How does Glint/Shiro maintain a Stability uptime/stun break that comes close to comparing to D/D Ele? Wait for it…

TL;DR nothing beats D/D Ele. We’ll see how Chrono/Scrapper does after some HoT time.

nearlight.3064:

Iohanna.4863:

Jekkt.6045:

no stunbreak on mallyx and the condi pressure is also not that great. the heal is also inferior.

No need to use torment abilities just because they’re available to you. Just spam Pain Absorption – there’s no cool down on it.

You get Stun Breaks on Legend Swap, and Shiro has Stun Breaks on demand. Yes, you will be vulnerable to CC in the 10 seconds after you have just swapped to Mallyx – but I find that an acceptable price for going from virtually no condition removal to complete immunity to conditions.

BWE2 and before I’d say the mallyx was actually pretty viable (and the best 1v1 build for the class by a good margin), however its condition pressure took a huge hit when Roy gutted the condition copy mechanic, meaning it can’t condi bomb effectively in teamfights anymore, and unyielding anguish can no longer be used to stop stomps/rezzes, so why even both when your torment ticks will do so little compared to the utter lack of utility? Pain absorption’s energy cost is a tad high.

Mallyx builds can still remove boons fairly well, but various necromancer/reaper and mesmer/chronomancer builds can still provide better boon removal over time (and in AoE too).

Edit: your build seems odd. I think a power build (more example of bad build diversity) could take corruption traits (although its a bit inferior of a choice) but the mallyx utilities don’t do much for it at all compared to shiro. Even jalis feels better, though it still has its flaws.

All I did was take the usual Shiro + Glint power and crit build and swap Glint out with Mallyx. Still traited for max Berserker DPS. Mallyx is taken purely for resistance buff from Pain Absorption – you don’t bother using the other utilities, so you should have plenty of energy left to spam Pain Absorption two or three times.

Lack of condition pressure is irrelevant – it’s still the same old Shiro + Glint burst damage build. Just with resistance instead of other buffs.

If you find a team mate with great condition removal support, you can quickly swap out Mallyx for Glint when you’re out of combat.

How does a Glint/Shiro build reliably deal against condition spam builds?
- by playing Mallyx/Shiro (Heralds have Facet of Nature – they don’t need Glint ‘that’ much)

How does Glint/Shiro break combat and escape like a D/D Ele can do (with Fiery Great Sword and Lightning Flash)?
- Super Speed after breaking stun, and Shiro’s teleport spam.

How does Glint/Shiro maintain a Stability uptime/stun break that comes close to comparing to D/D Ele?
- Stun break spam on Shiro.

Mallyx / Shiro Herald does everything.

The biggest power to D/D Elementalist is it’s hard counter, heavy boon strip, just isn’t taken in high level play because the builds that take it are just too specific and not good against other match ups.

Revenant on on the other hand is very vulnerable to Condi bomb and light boon strip both of which are far more common and useful against multiple builds and setups. Most Malyx counter play is in baiting a switch similar to baiting an Elementalist into Water. Thing is most people don’t really know how to counter a Revenant yet and the meta will be shaken up enough with specializations that it’ll be difficult to see if Revenant falls into a place where none of it’s counters are meta (similar to D/D Ele) so it ends up reigning supreme.

let’s not forget slow, which currently breaks almost all skills a revenant has :^)

Iohanna.4863:

How does a Glint/Shiro build reliably deal against condition spam builds?
- by playing Mallyx/Shiro (Heralds have Facet of Nature – they don’t need Glint ‘that’ much)

How does Glint/Shiro break combat and escape like a D/D Ele can do (with Fiery Great Sword and Lightning Flash)?
- Super Speed after breaking stun, and Shiro’s teleport spam.

How does Glint/Shiro maintain a Stability uptime/stun break that comes close to comparing to D/D Ele?
- Stun break spam on Shiro.

Mallyx / Shiro Herald does everything.

Great in theory. “That much” is not an argument. Love it.

Teleports requires a target for Shiro to escape. Not nearly as easy to get out.

Also, that’s Mallyx/Shiro (with FoN), not Glint/Shiro.

Energy consumption is your problem. If you want to do nothing in combat but autoattack and then have the option for defensive/escape/stun break. Sure, I see it being possible to mimic but also a much less effective build than standard D/D Ele.

Artaz.3819:

TL;DR nothing beats D/D Ele. We’ll see how Chrono/Scrapper does after some HoT time.

Nothing beats D/D Ele? Well, just a random example out of many… http://www.twitch.tv/rym69/v/19304443

Rym.1469:

Artaz.3819:

TL;DR nothing beats D/D Ele. We’ll see how Chrono/Scrapper does after some HoT time.

Nothing beats D/D Ele? Well, just a random example out of many… http://www.twitch.tv/rym69/v/19304443

Whats up with that camera? …

Burtnik.5218:

Rym.1469:

Artaz.3819:

TL;DR nothing beats D/D Ele. We’ll see how Chrono/Scrapper does after some HoT time.

Nothing beats D/D Ele? Well, just a random example out of many… http://www.twitch.tv/rym69/v/19304443

Whats up with that camera? …

Mom was shaking it because of all the amazing plays on screen. Sorry ;>

Glint’s active heal can counter a good junk of condibombs, also the regen passive helps abit with degen condis, but yes, the option to counter condi is limited: Jalis heal, legend switch trait, staff/Vet, that’s it. Unless you will sacrifice a sigil slot for the condi removal sigil. I wish protection also cut down incoming condi damage. On the bright side, especially when you run Glint, Revenant has a good pool of health-gaining skills that can be used to counter regen condi. Against crippling effects, well….. i suppose that’s the hardest parts of our new job as a rev.

Is apple the next pear?

/sry couldnt resist.

but anyways, d/d ele’s disengage mechanic is something revenant can never replicate… (RtL plus Lightning Flash plus Burning Speed / Fiery greatsword(#spin away) )

nobleroar.2078:

Is apple the next pear?

/sry couldnt resist.

but anyways, d/d ele’s disengage mechanic is something revenant can never replicate… (RtL plus Lightning Flash plus Burning Speed / Fiery greatsword(#spin away) )

And before someone butts in to talk about the shiro teleport, thats not a disengage, thats a chase tool.

Iohanna.4863:

How does a Glint/Shiro build reliably deal against condition spam builds?
- by playing Mallyx/Shiro (Heralds have Facet of Nature – they don’t need Glint ‘that’ much)

How does Glint/Shiro break combat and escape like a D/D Ele can do (with Fiery Great Sword and Lightning Flash)?
- Super Speed after breaking stun, and Shiro’s teleport spam.

How does Glint/Shiro maintain a Stability uptime/stun break that comes close to comparing to D/D Ele?
- Stun break spam on Shiro.

Mallyx / Shiro Herald does everything.

This is a much more compelling argument for your playstyle. By taking mallyx you gain a boost in 1v1s against condition classes (not necros though). However this comes at the cost of some of your CC and infuse light (active defense). Also the boon spam is a bit lower so in general it would be a more selfish build. We’d have to see how the meta settles, and I think your build could be viable, but your build is still extremely derivative of the strongest rev playstle, that is marauder amulet, shiro/x sword/shield etc, so its not as different as it may seem.

At any rate though, everyone focus on the topic I want to actually discuss (build diversity) instead of comparing counters/OPness for ele/rev.

Personally due to lack of character slots, for the time being I’m holding off on making a revenant until after appropriate balance patches bring their level of build diversity up, though I’ll be a bit sad that I won’t test out interseting builds like yours.

nearlight.3064:

Iohanna.4863:

How does a Glint/Shiro build reliably deal against condition spam builds?
- by playing Mallyx/Shiro (Heralds have Facet of Nature – they don’t need Glint ‘that’ much)

How does Glint/Shiro break combat and escape like a D/D Ele can do (with Fiery Great Sword and Lightning Flash)?
- Super Speed after breaking stun, and Shiro’s teleport spam.

How does Glint/Shiro maintain a Stability uptime/stun break that comes close to comparing to D/D Ele?
- Stun break spam on Shiro.

Mallyx / Shiro Herald does everything.

This is a much more compelling argument for your playstyle. By taking mallyx you gain a boost in 1v1s against condition classes (not necros though). However this comes at the cost of some of your CC and infuse light (active defense). Also the boon spam is a bit lower so in general it would be a more selfish build. We’d have to see how the meta settles, and I think your build could be viable, but your build is still extremely derivative of the strongest rev playstle, that is marauder amulet, shiro/x sword/shield etc, so its not as different as it may seem.

At any rate though, everyone focus on the topic I want to actually discuss (build diversity) instead of comparing counters/OPness for ele/rev.

Personally due to lack of character slots, for the time being I’m holding off on making a revenant until after appropriate balance patches bring their level of build diversity up, though I’ll be a bit sad that I won’t test out interseting builds like yours.

We actually have a thread about builds that dont use herald! Its quite rare because herald is very strong and compliments most builds nicely, but its worth checking out.