Guild Wars 2

Hi everyone. I wanted to really dig into the Jalis legend today. While there are other things that need to be addressed as far as Revenant goes, there are plenty of threads for those issues, but not as much attention on poor Jalis, which could still use a little love.

Roy described Jalis as a “tanky brawler”. This legend offers stability, loads of protection, a strong heal, condition clear, and debuffs like weaken and slow. The emphasis is much more on damage mitigation (aka tanky) than offense. Here are my thoughts and couple of suggestions for Jalis from a PvE perspective.

Soothing Stone

This is a great skill as is. I wouldn’t mind a slight reduction in cast time, but aside from that, it’s perfect.

Inspiring Reinforcement

I get that this utility was overpowered before, but it isn’t worth using now, except for the weakness, since the stability is gone the moment you step off of it and even with Facet of Nature on, you will only have a single stack most of the time. While I think the animation is very cool, it doesn’t keep up with player movement, so it doesn’t function well on the move either. I would like to see this ability function like the stability version of Shadow Refuge, so a party could stack up on it and get 8-10 seconds worth of stability. Increase the cooldown if necessary or make it an upkeep skill that pulses stability. It absolutely needs something different than what we currently have.

Forced Engagement

First things first, cut the energy cost to 20 or 25. Beyond that, I’d like to address the distinct lack of mobility in this legend by adding a pull. Increase cooldown as necessary to compensate for the addition of the pull. Beyond the added utility, I think this change solidifies a role for Forced Engagement as a tool for depleting breakbars. Another possibility to give the skill added functionality would be to move the stun break here from Rite.

Vengeful Hammers

This ability was changed from the previous BWE to give Jalis more of a tanky feel and the result is phenomenal. While you wouldn’t think that the small, incremental heals would be worth much, combined with the damage reduction, it’s actually fairly effective against multiple minor enemies, particularly combined with the Devastation trait line. The damage is likewise modest but adds up, and the energy cost feels right.

(Edit) It was pointed out that the cost is a bit high compared to Glint’s skills. Moving the weakness from Inspiring Reinforcement to here (1/2-1s per hammer hit or something similar) would make this a legend-defining ability and justify the upkeep cost, in my opinion. While that sounds pretty strong, range is limited and you can’t run it indefinitely.

The only issue with this ability is that the hammers get destroyed next to walls, on bridges, or anywhere a valid walking path doesn’t exist (e.g. edge of cliffs). This limits the use of the ability to open spaces and needs a fix.

Rite of the Great Dwarf

I didn’t really know what to think of this skill at first. It sounds powerful, but it is expensive and has a lengthy channel (especially in the previous beta). With the shorter duration that it now has and no cooldown, this feels like it is in a pretty good spot as a powerful defensive buff for you and your party. Note that the damage reduction from Rite stacks with Vengeful Hammers for a total of 60% damage reduction 1-(100*.5*(1-.2)). (Edit: Terra makes a good point below that with the long cast time on this ability, it is rather strange as a stun break, since by the time the cast is finished, most stuns would have ended).

I’ve really enjoyed using this legend, both from range and in melee. I believe that a bit of a reversion on Inspiring Reinforcement and the added utility on Forced Engagement, along with the bug fix to Vengeful Hammers will make this a legend that people will strongly consider when taking on tougher content.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your thoughts.

I agree with all of this. +1

What mode were you mostly playing OP if i can ask?

For me, I don’t care for the new vengeful hammers at all, especially from a pvp standpoint. Why would i want to take several retal ticks for meager to nonexistent heals.

Them being destroyed by just basic game-play is absolutely annoying bordering on unacceptable from a design stand-point, and it feels like they are slightly closer to my toon then last beta weekend but i am not 100% on it.

Forced engage is still really bad on a-lot of levels. To break the bar Staff 5 is your best friend and will also give you and your allies some additional healing if you are super into the tanky role sort of thing.

All in all i don’t personally see myself really ever using jalis and ventari unless the content absolutely demands it.

Apologies, forgot to mention this was strictly from a PvE perspective. I’ll update the original post. I like Glint/Jalis for PvE but Shiro would be really tough to pass up for PvP.

Forced Engagement definitely needs help. If it were up to me, I’d ditch the skill completely, but I did my best to make a realistic suggestion within the existing framework that would give it more of a purpose.

Stinja.9612:

What mode were you mostly playing OP if i can ask?

Good feedback OP,

I tried testing out less “popular” legends myself after initial craziness of Herald and stuff.

As for Jalis, I was primarly trying to test it out in HoT PvE and WvW. The results were mostly satisfying and the Vengeful Hammers are absolutely great bonus.

• Soothing Stone
  It’s good. Personally, I’d increase the Retaliation to 3s base, but aside from that, no changes needed.

• Inspiring Reinforcement
  I think that if Stability per tick was increased to 3s, this skill would be in a good place. I like it, but 1s Stability doesn’t help. Increase the Weakness duration to match the CD. It was hit by cleave from Nerfhammer aimed at Stability and never recovered. Or make “road” pulse Weakness.

• Forced Engagement
  I think the sweet spot for it’s Energy cost would be 30-35. I can’t see it as 20 or 25 Energy, that would be incredibly spammable CC. But 30 or 35 cost I feel is high enough to make it considerable decision.

• Vengeful Hammers
  Not much to add. Great as it is.

• Rite of the Great Dwarf
  It’s little high on Energy. 40 Energy cost would’ve been just perfect.

I was going to make a topic about Jalis as well but then found this. With regards to the OP, agree with some parts and disagree with others. Basically, the way I see it, you can’t view Jalis by itself and have to compare it to other specs, specifically Glint.

• Soothing Stone – As others have pointed out, it’s in a decent place. The cast time is in line with other classes heals e.g. Thief’s HiS. Retaliation could be buffed 1s but no biggie.

• Inspiring Reinforcement – As stability stacks in intensity now not duration, so although I like the OP’s idea of making it like shadow refuge, it won’t work. Instead, just increase the stability to 3s a pulse. The weakness should pulse with the stability. Yes 30s may seem high but in pvp you’re an idiot if you stand on the road and in PvE weakness is already 50% less effective on defiant mobs.

• Forced Engagement – definitely needs an energy reduction. At 50 energy I see no reason to use it. I know raids may need it but it’s far too situational right now. Personally I’d reduce energy to 30, remove slow and replace it with 5s of group vigor. Chronomacer’s will and can do slow much better than us, why throw it in as a token? Also, Jalis already has some endurance regen, adding vigor will make it even more of a brawler. If needs be, can even put a ICD to stop taunt spams.

• Vengeful Hammers – On the face it looks decent but I actually think this is pretty weak when compared to what glint’s facets offer. For 7 upkeep on Glint I could get perma protect, swiftness and regen OR perma swiftness, regen, 10 might stacks and fury. The first offers 13% more dmg mitigation and double the regen in hp, the latter offers a huge dps boost and more health.

Don’t get me wrong, I like where its going with the 20% dps mitigation, BUT, to compete with the facets I’d reduce the upkeep cost down to 5, remove the damage and the heal component and replace it with group pulsing retaliation every time the hammer hits (either 2s with a 1s ICD or 1s and no ICD – obviously needs testing to balance).

• Rite of the Great Dwarf – The worst thing about this elite is it’s super long cast time. Most stuns would have worn off by the time it’s been cast! Furthermore, 50% dmg mitigation for 5s is kinda meh compared to perma 33% dmg mitigation from Glint along with a decent dps and aoe knockdown active.

I’d prefer something like, 5s group ‘endure pain’ (i.e. invuln) with 5s of resistance. To balance, make it cost 100 energy and put it on a 30s ICD. Now that’s a hit the fan elite, something which Jalis really lacks but should have. Glint has it with her Heal skill. Jalis should have something similar, especially as the ‘tanky’ spec.

Just a side not on traits, Eye for an Eye or Redeeming Protection (master traits), one should be removed or the two merged, they basically both do something when cc’d. We don;t need 2 of them.

Would prefer somthing like:

• Whilst attuned to Jalis gain 100 vitality. (The game would always put you at a % of your health when you switch out of this legend, so say you had 500 health, switching out won’t kill you. Instead 500 is roughly 1/32 of 16k, so game would put you at 1/32 of 15kp hp when you switch out ).

GM Traits
Empowering Vengeance (might when struck with retal) would only be nice if they added retal to Vengful Hammers. (I’d pick this for soloing)

Don’t like the other 2, the hammer for 10s on a 30s cd is basically a spirit weapon and we all know how useful they are… sarcasm. Whilst healing for 550 every 4s is ok I guess but not really amazing.

I’d prefer something like:

• When legend swapping you start at 100% energy. 30s ICD and in combat only. (I’d pick this for raids/ dungeons IF the elite was the 5s invlun like I mentioned above).

• When struck you have a 33% chance to convert conditions to boons – 1 condition every 3s. (I’d pick this for PvP)

That’s my 5 cents anyways.

I believe Soothing Stone should be a stun break.

also believe Rite should be made into a Upkeep skill of some kind with an added effect.

Forced Engagement should also be an upkeep with random procs for taunt.

right now everything cost too much energy for limited use

Thanks for the feedback, gang.

@Rym

on Forced Engagement, the shortest cooldown I could find on a pull was 12s other than a thief ability, so I was assuming (as mentioned in the op) that the cooldown would be increased considerably, so spamming it isn’t an issue and the cost could be lower. I agree that if they decided to keep the low CD a higher energy cost would be needed.

@Terra

Yup, Forced Engagement doesn’t serve a distinct role in most situations, which is why I suggested the pull.

I think you make a fair point with respect to comparing the legends to one another, however, you also have to consider the legend as a whole. Perhaps you are right about Vengeful Hammers being too expensive, but I’d rather have it as a strong defensive utility that justifies the cost than a weaker one you can maintain all the time. So, here’s a thought inspired by your other feedback: keep the cost as is, but remove weakness from inspiring reinforcement and add 1/2-1 sec weakness to each hammer hit.

One thing to keep in mind with Rite of the Great Dwarf: that 50% is NOT protection, it is a unique effect. While I haven’t tested it, it should stack with protection and yield total protection of 66%. Unlike Glint’s active, this has no CD. I’m hesitant to buff it anymore, tbh.

Misguided.5139:

Thanks for the feedback, gang.

@Terra

Yup, Forced Engagement doesn’t serve a distinct role in most situations, which is why I suggested the pull.

I think you make a fair point with respect to comparing the legends to one another, however, you also have to consider the legend as a whole. Perhaps you are right about Vengeful Hammers being too expensive, but I’d rather have it as a strong defensive utility that justifies the cost than a weaker one you can maintain all the time. So, here’s a thought inspired by your other feedback: keep the cost as is, but remove weakness from inspiring reinforcement and add 1/2-1 sec weakness to each hammer hit.

One thing to keep in mind with Rite of the Great Dwarf: that 50% is NOT protection, it is a unique effect. While I haven’t tested it, it should stack with protection and yield total protection of 66%. Unlike Glint’s active, this has no CD. I’m hesitant to buff it anymore, tbh.

Thing is, even 50% dmg mitigation (which I note is a separate buff from protection), has situational use only. For 3 main reasons:

• It has a long cast time that you will have to precast it in good time and hope not to be cc’d (this is talking PvE)
• 5s of 50% dmg mitigation on paper sounds nice but the only times I need that much mitigation is a) i’m on low health, by which time, making a 12k hit to 6k is nice but if i had only 5k health kinda defeats the point. Or b) Pre casting against a huge upcoming attack with rapid hits. But even then, invuln is best, then dodge roll, then block and finally dmg mitigation.
• The huge energy cost for the 5s buff means a max of 50% uptime IF I camped in Jalis and only auto attacked then used the elite. That’s just not fun.

In current PvE, both with dungeons and world events, I rarely used the Jalis Elite because it wasn’t worth it. In fact, hand on heart, the only times I ever use it was when I was switching out of Jalis and I’d check if I had 50 energy spare, if so I’d press it then switch legends.

Personally, I just didn;t find Jalis fun – Glint was. That’s my main concern with the way Jalis sits, it’s just not fun. Right now, Shiro and Ventari will be used in raids (the former for quickness, the latter for reflects). Jalis has a limited role unless taunt becomes a huge thing. PLease note, I’d change a lot about Ventari and some things about Shiro too, but sticking to Jalis, I really wish from a PvE PoV it brought more to the table. Right now it has limited use and is just not fun to play. Please Roy fix this.

@Knighthonor

When I was going through this I kept trying trying to add a stun break somewhere other than the elite, but nothing seemed right (I wanted to put it on Forced Engagement, but ended up going with the pull instead). I’m not opposed to one on the heal, provided it isn’t the only one. As for upkeep skills, seems like they are trying to stick to one per legend (other than Glint) though it could certainly work for Inspiring Reinforcement.

@Terra
Any thoughts on the pull for Forced Engagement?

I get where you are coming from with the elite. Honestly, I’m not sure what to suggest that would make it more fun to use without threatening to make it overpowered, diminish it as a stun break by adding a long cooldown (and as you pointed out, it is already an oddity there), or tromp on the territory of another legend (e.g. By adding resistance). I can see it being useful in fractals where you have to maintain position (e.g. Standing on a switch) and perhaps in raids, but that’s awfully situational.

The road got nerft pretty heavy it should come down way faster if not instant or become a placeble effect.
Give it 1200 range (for the end of it) so you can use it while walking. Rightnow if you walk with swiftness you won’t get any stack stability from it for a skill that costs A LOT and has a CD. + Give 3 seconds stability per pulse.
People complain about pirate ship meta so why do you nerf stability skills so hard anyway.

The main downsides I had with Jalis in this last beta were the Vengeful hammers disabling when hitting walls/rocks/trees etc. And the severe lack of retribution. I mean there is a gm trait requiring it but you can only get if you dodge? And only for 2s at that? I mean its not even any good as a boon why the low durations? Mostly I would like to seed more retribution and Vengeful hammers disabling fixed. Other then that I thought It was good.

A side not with Inspiring Reinforcement. Now that it has a decent cool down can we change the stability back to be more then 1s?

Misguided.5139:

@Knighthonor

When I was going through this I kept trying trying to add a stun break somewhere other than the elite, but nothing seemed right (I wanted to put it on Forced Engagement, but ended up going with the pull instead). I’m not opposed to one on the heal, provided it isn’t the only one. As for upkeep skills, seems like they are trying to stick to one per legend (other than Glint) though it could certainly work for Inspiring Reinforcement.

@Terra
Any thoughts on the pull for Forced Engagement?

I get where you are coming from with the elite. Honestly, I’m not sure what to suggest that would make it more fun to use without threatening to make it overpowered, diminish it as a stun break by adding a long cooldown (and as you pointed out, it is already an oddity there), or tromp on the territory of another legend (e.g. By adding resistance). I can see it being useful in fractals where you have to maintain position (e.g. Standing on a switch) and perhaps in raids, but that’s awfully situational.

Roy posted on another thread he’s changing some stuff so I’m optimistic, he’s pretty good at keeping us informed.

With regards to the pull, I like it but I think it’s unlikely because of:

• Thief’s Scorpion Wire – 1200 pull on 20s cd

I think Taunt may be needed more often than that and to put a 1200 pull on it would mean a much longer cd than 3s which it stands at. As a thief main, I know how trolly/ fun scorp wire can be in pvp/wvw and to have it on a low cd would be awesome but unbalance compare to thiefs’.

Having said that, I wouldn’t rule it completely out because to regen 50 energy would be at least 10s so although not spammable, it’s still much less than scorp wire (plus the fact it’s a taunt/slow).

Terra.8571:

With regards to the pull, I like it but I think it’s unlikely because of:

• Thief’s Scorpion Wire – 1200 pull on 20s cd

I think Taunt may be needed more often than that and to put a 1200 pull on it would mean a much longer cd than 3s which it stands at. As a thief main, I know how trolly/ fun scorp wire can be in pvp/wvw and to have it on a low cd would be awesome but unbalance compare to thiefs’.

Having said that, I wouldn’t rule it completely out because to regen 50 energy would be at least 10s so although not spammable, it’s still much less than scorp wire (plus the fact it’s a taunt/slow).

Yes, I was figuring on a cooldown of at least 12 seconds, more likely 15 (matching up with a couple of weapon-based pulls…typically utilities have longer CDs but Revenant skills tend to have short CDs because of the energy cost). If Roy likes this idea, they could always increase the duration on the taunt, which might justify keeping the energy cost closer to it’s current amount (which I think everyone agrees is way too high for the current version).

If pull is a no-go, then I say make Forced Engagement a stun break with a 35 cost.

Over the weekend I did all of my testing for Jalis in spvp, and this was my first BWE so I didn’t play with Jalis beforehand.

Like many revenant I started with the Glint legend because anyway you look at it it’s a solid legend. However midway through the weekend my build converted to Jalis. I used Shiro/Jalis with sword/shield and staff. My goal was to have strong attack, but good sustain/defense; similar to a meditation guardian. Overall I felt my build was very good and I was able to defeat other revenant using the same traits as I, but equipping Glint instead of Jalis.

• Soothing Stone
  It’s good. Particularly the condition removal, which is a HUGE advantage over Shiro/Glint builds.

• Inspiring Reinforcement
  I wasn’t here for the first BWE so I can’t say if this skill was OP before the changes. What I do know is that I barely used it. The cast time vs. the reward wasn’t good. I would like to see the speed the road is built increased, plus stability pulsed at a higher rate. Pulsing weakness is also a good idea, but others have suggested moving it to vengeful hammers which is also good. Just as long as the stability on this skill is more readily available.

• Forced Engagement
  The main problem with this skill is the energy cost is way too high. I barely used it for this reason. I think the energy cost should be reduced to 35 to keep it from being spamable, but still worthwhile. In pvp it can miss fairly easily from a dodge, or if the opponent is far enough away and strafes the projectile. If you miss this skill then your energy is pretty much shot.

• Vengeful Hammers
  This skill was great. It was the main reason I chose Jalis over Glint. The healing from staff auto attack plus this skill was amazing. This skill plus the heal on attack traits I chose, and I could sustain myself very well in a fight. Preparing the Shiro heal skill beforehand, switching to Jalis and vengeful hammers, then unrelenting assault on sword was also very good as well.
  This skill is fine as it is. Adding weakness on top of it is as others have stated sounds like I good idea as well. However, I worry that it may be a bit too good with weakness added.

• Rite of the Great Dwarf
  This skill is odd as a stun break. You need stun breaks on demand, however you need to cast this for 1.25 seconds to stun break. It’s a pointless stun breaker. I propose removing the stun break. Instead give it stability for the duration once cast.

@Bunnytown

Thanks for providing some pvp perspective.

I like the idea of Forced Engagement as a stun break. I had tinkered with it before I started this post, but went with the pull idea instead. But after you and Terra pointed out how odd Rite is as a stun break, maybe the answer is to go that way.

Stability would certainly make sense on Rite, but it would overlap with IR too much. How about something like immunity to movement-impeding conditions (immobilize/cripple/chill) for the duration?

Heck, I’m tempted to say put the stability on Rite and the immunity to movement-impeding conditions on Inspiring Reinforcement (maybe with longer area of effect). Maybe I’m starting to overthink all of this too much.

@ Misguided

I thought about immunity to movement-impeding conditions on Rite for a bit, but decided on stability. Because Rite goes to 5 allies I figured it would be a bit OP, at least for pvp.

I do like your idea that Inspiring Reinforcement should grant the immunity instead though. This would get rid of the problem of stacking stability, which was the original issue in the first BWE, but still give the same feeling as a “road for allies to stand firm”.

I support the suggestions mentioned. I tried playing with jalis in WvW and every skill felt underwhelming (except heal).

Inspiring Reinforcement – Animation too slow, not enough duration even when standing on it and unusable on the move

Forced Engagement- This energy cost makes no sense, I used it once to try it out and that was it…

Vengeful Hammers- Energy upkeep was a tad too high. You can get permanent protection with Glint and with less energy upkeep

Rite of the Great Dwarf- the 50 energy cost and 5 s duration can really punish you for trying to use it before an engagement. It’s too early to tell but a slightly higher duration would be better. I suppose it’s balanced around hitting 5 targets.

I think a more reliable stun break for Jalis would make the stun break for allies trait on Herald tree a better combo for a front line support build. Maybe add it to forced engagement. I feel that skill needs to be reworked

Eremoo.2785:

I think a more reliable stun break for Jalis would make the stun break for allies trait on Herald tree a better combo for a front line support build. Maybe add it to forced engagement. I feel that skill needs to be reworked

Thanks for the input. Yeah, stun break on Forced Engagement seems like the right call. Even then the skill cost should be reduced, IMO.

I personally would like to see Forced Engagement to become an upkeep skill. Giving it a taunt every so often and slow. If turned off while energy is above a certain amount it causes the target to be pulled to the revenant or causes a decent amount of damage in case of bosses.

RunicAura.9860:

I personally would like to see Forced Engagement to become an upkeep skill. Giving it a taunt every so often and slow. If turned off while energy is above a certain amount it causes the target to be pulled to the revenant or causes a decent amount of damage in case of bosses.

I certainly think that could work, I just don’t know if it’s realistic. It appears they want the non-Glint lines to each have one. Could just be coincidence, but I tried to stick within that framework. Though if I had the choice of one skill to make an upkeep, it would be inspiring reinforcement.

The change to Vengeful Hammers was a great step in the right direction. I think the upkeep might need to be lowered a bit or the healing could go up.

I think the elite needs to be instant cast.

I think that inspiring reinforcements should provide two seconds of stability as soon as you cast it as well as it should pulse two to three seconds of stability.

I think forced engagement should either be a pull or give you retaliation. I think the energy cost of the spell should definitely go down.

The heal is fine for the most part. The only change I would suggest would be to make the resistance it provides last longer.