btw I would prefer just energy costs ;D
Similar to thieves.
Although it’s not like all the abilities need to conform. Could throw a cooldown on SOME weapon skills but not all. Pretty sure the utilities are that way anywho.
btw I would prefer just energy costs ;D
Similar to thieves.
Although it’s not like all the abilities need to conform. Could throw a cooldown on SOME weapon skills but not all. Pretty sure the utilities are that way anywho.
Thief use initiative only on weaponskills. Similarly rev should use energy only on legend skills
I think it is difficult to make a satisfactory system of “energy” for both offensive skills and utilities. Games usually resort to a dual energy pool system to fix that. Here it is CD + energy, why not.
The use of energy for weapon skills explain why many have a rather low cooldown. Many complained that the energy ran out fast, but I had a very different feeling. Utilities are not meant to be spammed, for most classes, the CD are between 20 and 40s. I think we need more time playing to see how balanced this really is.
I’d like both, if they would make it so you swap to 100% energy instead of 50, and just gave Elites a cooldown so they didn’t become problematic… That’d be my ideal…
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Honestly i think they should have weapon skills have cooldown and let the utilities be all about energy. So you know when i use the right side of my bar i have to pay attention to energy, and when i use the leftside i have cooldowns. I think otherwise if they are gonna make us swap both sides of our bar it’s gonna be confusing imho.
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I really like the idea of both, but I’m wondering if they can get the numbers down. This seems like it’s going to be very tricky to balance properly, and I’m concerned that you’re going to feel punished in your weapon skills for spamming your utility skills(and vice versa). Obviously there should be a downside to spamming utility skills, but that downside is already built-in: you can’t use those utilities again for a long time! It feels almost unfair to add on the punishment to the other side of your skill bar, and it splits your balancing efforts into two areas: on one hand, you want energy to regenerate quickly enough that you don’t feel locked out of all your abilities very long; on the other hand, you want it to regenerate more slowly to encourage thoughtful gameplay especially regarding utilities. I’m concerned those two areas will conflict and result in balances which don’t satisfy either area.
I guess one big question is how often(if at all) you will head into a situation where your weapon skills are unavailable due to using your utilities, and you feel forced into switching legends just to use any skills on your bar? How long is that going to last? How will this interact with upkeep skills? Given the way that legends seem integral to gameplay, it feels kind of cheap to twist players’ arms into switching legends by locking them out of their weapon skills and force them to incur the 10 second cooldown just to get back on track. I guess it all comes down to the question of whether or not I’m going to feel like I have to constantly choose between my Weapon and Utility skills, because every time I use my weapon skills I essentially have to cannibalize my utility skills(and vice versa); something no other class has to do.
The obvious solution here is to make the weapon skills’ energy costs essentially nominal: punish the players who absolutely drain their energy pools to the point that they’re bankrupt of even 4 or 6 energy. But then that kind of defeats some of the point…
I dunno, honestly I think this is one of those things that will have to be addressed after release once everyone has gotten familiar enough with the class to say “these should be cooldown only” or “just keep balancing the numbers.” I do hope they find a good balance, though, because I love the idea of a class with low-cooldown weapon skills.
You regenerate your full bar in 20s. In most cases, that means you can use all your utilities + elite in a row every 20-30s. That is quite good! One may argue that some of the utilities are “weaker” than usual utilities, but I am not so sure. So I don’t think the price should be lowered. And paying a small price in terms of weapon skill seems interesting to me, it is a bit more thinking than sometimes just spamming your DPS skills as soon as they are off-CD.
You regenerate your full bar in 20s. In most cases, that means you can use all your utilities + elite in a row every 20-30s. That is quite good! One may argue that some of the utilities are “weaker” than usual utilities, but I am not so sure. So I don’t think the price should be lowered. And paying a small price in terms of weapon skill seems interesting to me, it is a bit more thinking than sometimes just spamming your DPS skills as soon as they are off-CD.
I don’t follow your math.
First of all, even 100 energy is not enough to allow you to use all legendary skills and weaponskills (even without factoring upkeep skills). Plus you get 50 energy on legend swap, so you should calculate this again. It’s more complicated then that, and the reasoning should be “X skills without the upkeep” or “Y skills while the upkeep is active”, both without legend swap and from 50 or 100 energy. If you also add positive pips, that will become more complicated.
Skills like Shiro #9 will consume 5 energy +10 upkeep, giving you some negative pips, so you won’t be able to do anything beside the elite skill probably, being forced to swap legend to do weaponskills again.
I did not include the upkeep (I thought I mentioned it but apparently not) but I just looked at Shiro (it’s morning for me, I’m too lazy to do more) and the added cost of all utilities + elite was less than 150 so less than 30s. So when I said all utilities I actually meant “of one legend”. The legend swap goes back to 50 which can be nice if you just ran out of energy with your previous legend.
The upkeep just makes things too complicated since it depends how long you think you should keep it to be worth of a normal utility.
As I said, I think the only reasonable thing is to wait to see how the class perform. Most videos I saw of revenant were just spamming utilities more than any other class would allow. I myself had the problem I never used (except the paved road of Jalis) them but that is because I did not play enough to see their use, I got bored too fast
The problem with energy on weapon and utility is it makes you only use the “best skill” repetitively because everything else is pointless. Making most weapon skills a complete waste of time and energy, because all they do is waste your much needed energy. I don’t much love the ‘spam the keyboard for damage routine’, but it does make you actually use more then just 1 skill.
I would like to be able to utilize my utility AND weapon skills on revenant, instead of just one or the other because of a severe lack of energy. At least that’s my say.
The problem with energy on weapon and utility is it makes you only use the “best skill” repetitively because everything else is pointless. Making most weapon skills a complete waste of time and energy, because all they do is waste your much needed energy. I don’t much love the ‘spam the keyboard for damage routine’, but it does make you actually use more then just 1 skill.
I would like to be able to utilize my utility AND weapon skills on revenant, instead of just one or the other because of a severe lack of energy. At least that’s my say.
This is an issue you generally run into when too many things run off the same resource, especially since we’re currently swapping to a mere 50 energy, I frequently find myself thinking “okay, don’t ever use that except in really extreme circumstances, MAYBE, because that energy is mostly a waste,” which admittedly isn’t a fun feeling.
I still like the idea of energy on weapons, but I definitely feel like it needs toned down a bit in terms of costs, and we need more energy on swap. And for the sake of balance, add CDs to the elites, which I’m fairly sure are the culprits of keeping energy locked into 50% on swap.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
The only reason why the weapon skill cooldowns are short in the first place is because of the energy cost associated with it. If it was Cooldowns only, you can expect a CD increase across the board.
On the other side of things, if there was no cooldown and only energy costs, you can also expect weapon skills to have an increased energy cost and most of the skills we have wouldn’t be as potent (Imagine using sword 3 2 times in a row on a single target). They’d be nerfed. Just look at thief, their skills are straightforward and not as flashy/cool as any other profession except warrior.
Having both is fine. It allows for short CD’s and for awesome abilities.
Edit: To add to the people saying “Energy runs out too fast” or “The other side of the ability shouldn’t be punished” the profession revolves around energy management, using a utility/weapon skill should be a wise decision, not a reflex like other utility skills or something you press off cooldown. Manage your energy and learn the profession, don’t complain about the mechanic.
The only reason why the weapon skill cooldowns are short in the first place is because of the energy cost associated with it. If it was Cooldowns only, you can expect a CD increase across the board.
On the other side of things, if there was no cooldown and only energy costs, you can also expect weapon skills to have an increased energy cost and most of the skills we have wouldn’t be as potent (Imagine using sword 3 2 times in a row on a single target). The’d be nerfed. Just look at thief, their skills are straightforward and not as flashy/cool as any other profession except warrior.
Having both is fine. It allows for short CD’s and for awesome abilities.
Edit: To add to the people saying “Energy runs out too fast” or “The other side of the ability shouldn’t be punished” the profession revolves around energy management, using a utility should be a wise decision, not a reflex like other utility skills. Manage your energy and learn the profession, don’t complain about the mechanic.
There’s a difference between “manage your energy” and “I swapped to use a vital ability at this given moment AAAAND now all of my attacks are disabled for a few moments.” Because that currently happens. This game’s combat is far too fast for things to not be reactionary at least a little bit. Try to be too conservative and a thief will dance around you like it’s nothing (similarly, Mesmer).
Having both is fine, but it could certainly be handled better.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Both makes the most sense balancing wise I think, even though I do think that some of the energy costs could use a little tweaking to make them less expensive to cast, the people complaining about “running out of energy” are running the class wrong and are spamming their utilities too often or not swapping legends enough, I played revenant and very rarely did I not have enough energy to cast my weapon’s abilities, a simple tweak of the cost would satisfy me enough
Assuming you swap legends every 10 seconds and you run yourself empty before every swap, you’ll have an energy balance of 100 energy every 10 seconds (50 from the swap and 5 energy per second from regen). Given that many of the skills on the weapons function as utilities and don’t have a purpose in a damage rotation, they work with the 6 utilities and 2 elites on your bar to determine what you can do with your energy pool.
100 energy every 10 seconds seems like you’ll get plenty of casts out of the rest of your kit. You can’t just mindlessly mash the buttons as soon as they are off cooldown, but you get to use the skills often enough.
Maybe my perspective is queued from years spent playing monk in GW1 GvGs where external sources were actively trying to disrupt my energy management, but I didn’t feel like handling the energy was particularly challenging.
I would agree however that some of the skills have pretty weak effects given the energy costs that they have, but I don’t see that as a problem with the resources so much as a problem with the skills (Some of which have been fixed already).
Guild Wars 1 had a mix of skills that were essentially energy-limited (short recharge, primary cost was the energy) and skills that were more limited by cooldown… but apart from signets still cost energy and could slow down your recovery after using the big skills. The split between revenant weapon and utility skills is along this line.
Myself, I think it makes for a more interesting mechanic. Take the energy cost off the weapon skills, and your only choice regarding energy is which utility skills to spend it on. With the energy cost on weapon skills, you can make the tactical choice of holding back on them to keep a sustained skill lasting longer or to speed up the time before you can use another utility. Removing that choice would make it easier to learn, but offer less space to develop mastery, IMO. Keep in mind that we’re all still new to the profession: with a few months of experience, making the decision of whether to use weapon skills or hold back to allow more energy for utilities will probably start becoming second nature. (Hammer/Jalis in particular seems like it was intended by design to rely more on Vengeful Hammers in close than weapon skills.)
Of course, the skills involved, including energy costs, do need to be suitably balanced so that revenant players are appropriately rewarded for wise use of energy. But I think the bigger problem is that utility skills possibly cost more energy than the effect justifies in many cases than weapon skills costing any energy at all (from memory, you can generally spam all weapon skills on recharge indefinitely and expect your energy to stay high).
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both, after introducing weapon swap and utility skills having short to no cd at all it just makes sense. If you remove one or the other the class would have to be rebalanced from the ground up. I would like to get some energy management traits in the invocation line though, just like all the other professions get a way to boost the cd on a weapon or get a larger energy pool, like the thief does.
Not a huge deal for me, but I think it’s important to remember that Energy is essentially cooldowns visualized in a moving bar, albeit on a global level. It allows for slightly more spectacular individual skills since the visualized cooldown meter is primarily the main resource.
I guess I have always just hated the general idea of cooldowns unless absolutely necessary. They never made sense to me. Why can I only jump every 30 seconds? Did I forget how? Am I perhaps tired and don’t have the energy? If so, why not actually use energy? Just how I have always seen it. If you think that’s silly reasoning, oh well. I think it’s a big deal
I am ok with both, but I do think some of the weapon cooldowns need to be reduced. Staff 5 for example, seems a bit long considering there is an energy cost as well. In my mind the energy cost is there to allow for shorter cooldowns. To have a cost and a long cooldown feels excessive to me.
Simplicity is complex.
Good feedback is key to getting the developers to listen to you.
I am ok with both, but I do think some of the weapon cooldowns need to be reduced. Staff 5 for example, seems a bit long considering there is an energy cost as well. In my mind the energy cost is there to allow for shorter cooldowns. To have a cost and a long cooldown feels excessive to me.
Energy may not be an issue now that swapping legend is isntant. If you want to do a skill but have no energy, then you just have to learn to swap fast.
Probably.
I’m not sure about this, I want a beta soon to try.
All I’m saying is, why have a 15 sec CD when you can just make something cost equal 15 seconds of energy regeneration. Hypothetical situation. 30 energy regenerates at 1 per second. Ability that would normally have a 15 sec cd instead just takes 15 energy. It’s stupidly simple except its 100x more fun and make 100x more sense. tbh, cooldowns can suck a phat one. You all have no vision for the future.
All I’m saying is, why have a 15 sec CD when you can just make something cost equal 15 seconds of energy regeneration. Hypothetical situation. 30 energy regenerates at 1 per second. Ability that would normally have a 15 sec cd instead just takes 15 energy. It’s stupidly simple except its 100x more fun and make 100x more sense. tbh, cooldowns can suck a phat one. You all have no vision for the future.
Except, the way the Revenant is set up, you naturally have a +5 energy regen, meaning that something that costs 15 energy actually would have a 3 second cooldown, not a 15 second one. Also you can just legend swap and use an ability multiple times before it goes on an actual “cd”. so what you’re essentially proposing to have weapon skills have something like a 50-75 energy cost. No thanks . Another thing is that abilities would straight up be nerfed/not be as awesome if they had no cooldown. If you think the future is boring spells and facerolling your keyboard, then I don’t want to have anything to do with it. And before you mention the thief, yes their skills are mostly boring (in comparison to all the other professions) and their skills aren’t particularly game changing, only their utilities are, which IIRC have a CD.
This profession is meant to be a gw1 throwback class (as they’ve stated countless times) so whether you like it or not, it will have both CD and energy cost. Don’t fret though, the energy cost is what makes these skills have such a low CD.
I feel like the energy AND cooldown thing is fine for weapon skills, since they already have such a low cooldown….. but there is one thing that shouldn’t have both…. and that is your heal skill.
Having your heal cost energy and have a cooldown is just double dipping, imho.
All I’m saying is, why have a 15 sec CD when you can just make something cost equal 15 seconds of energy regeneration. Hypothetical situation. 30 energy regenerates at 1 per second. Ability that would normally have a 15 sec cd instead just takes 15 energy. It’s stupidly simple except its 100x more fun and make 100x more sense. tbh, cooldowns can suck a phat one. You all have no vision for the future.
What? 30 energy regens 1e/s? – you just created a thief clone – play thief if you like that kind of playstyle ^^
Stay with the current Regen and Energy-Pool → the 15 sec CD would equal 75!!! Energy
no one will ever use that
this whole debate is senseless as the combination of Energy and cooldown makes good skills possible with low cooldown – i dont get why this is such a problem
its so simple:
remove Energycost from Weapons —> Permanent Shiro/mallyx Upkeep with monster DPS Nuke (as you can make a kitten large Rotation over both weapons while having 20s speed or the 10% Mallyx bonus) – all other utilities never used → DMG is reduced to compensate that Burst playstyle and dont make it OP —> that forces you to play that way to still deal DPS
(just one example – there are way more ways to abuse that system)
Remove Cooldowns from Weapons – maintain all just with energy —> congrats you’ve created a thief clone
I feel like the energy AND cooldown thing is fine for weapon skills, since they already have such a low cooldown….. but there is one thing that shouldn’t have both…. and that is your heal skill.
Having your heal cost energy and have a cooldown is just double dipping, imho.
We are talking about 5 Energy for a Heal-skill though – if you burned all your energy down to 0 and cant survive the 1 second to regenerate you made a mistake IMO
no need to say that in most situation the skill animation is long enoug to regenerate the 5 energy or at least nearly.
All I’m saying is, why have a 15 sec CD when you can just make something cost equal 15 seconds of energy regeneration. Hypothetical situation. 30 energy regenerates at 1 per second. Ability that would normally have a 15 sec cd instead just takes 15 energy. It’s stupidly simple except its 100x more fun and make 100x more sense. tbh, cooldowns can suck a phat one. You all have no vision for the future.
Except, the way the Revenant is set up, you naturally have a +5 energy regen, meaning that something that costs 15 energy actually would have a 3 second cooldown, not a 15 second one. Also you can just legend swap and use an ability multiple times before it goes on an actual “cd”. so what you’re essentially proposing to have weapon skills have something like a 50-75 energy cost. No thanks . Another thing is that abilities would straight up be nerfed/not be as awesome if they had no cooldown. If you think the future is boring spells and facerolling your keyboard, then I don’t want to have anything to do with it. And before you mention the thief, yes their skills are mostly boring (in comparison to all the other professions) and their skills aren’t particularly game changing, only their utilities are, which IIRC have a CD.
This profession is meant to be a gw1 throwback class (as they’ve stated countless times) so whether you like it or not, it will have both CD and energy cost. Don’t fret though, the energy cost is what makes these skills have such a low CD.
The suggestion for 30 en with 1 per sec was PURELY HYPOTHETICAL.
If you regen at 5 per sec, then 75 = 15 seconds. So make a 15 sec CD ability instead, cost 75 energy. C’mon use some common sense here, it was obviously an EXAMPLE.
I’m not saying make it like something else, I’m saying make it make sense. how hard is that?
Honestly i think they should have weapon skills have cooldown and let the utilities be all about energy. So you know when i use the right side of my bar i have to pay attention to energy, and when i use the leftside i have cooldowns. I think otherwise if they are gonna make us swap both sides of our bar it’s gonna be confusing imho.
+1
I really hope they consider this. As it stands combat is just a spamfest until your energy is gone, then you just auto attack. Weapon skills need to not cost energy in order to keep the flow of combat fun and engaging.
Additionally I want to see Energy itself improved as a mechanic. There ought to be ways to sacrifice some energy in the short term to gain more in the long term. Or to temporarily boost max energy, or gain it by reviving or blocking or something. Basically there ought to be more thought put into managing energy. Right now it’s basically just a passive resource block to limit your skill spamming. There’s no active input.
The suggestion for 30 en with 1 per sec was PURELY HYPOTHETICAL.
If you regen at 5 per sec, then 75 = 15 seconds. So make a 15 sec CD ability instead, cost 75 energy. C’mon use some common sense here, it was obviously an EXAMPLE.
I’m not saying make it like something else, I’m saying make it make sense. how hard is that?
You seemed to have not grasped the concept of what my post was getting at, please read it again.
Thieves have both, why is it so hard for you to imagine the Revenant with both?
Thieves have Initiative (which is the same as Revenant Energy Bar, in that skills don’t require cooldowns but Initative/Energy) and utility skills that have cooldowns.
I’m sure in the first couple of months that Revenant goes live, they’ll nerf energy regen massively like they did for the Thief’s Initiative regen.
Honestly i think they should have weapon skills have cooldown and let the utilities be all about energy. So you know when i use the right side of my bar i have to pay attention to energy, and when i use the leftside i have cooldowns. I think otherwise if they are gonna make us swap both sides of our bar it’s gonna be confusing imho.
I very much like this idea. The utilities are all about summoning legends of the past which should cost energy to commune with them. Yes, some weapon skills do use the mists to attack, but they are not calling on legends to do this.
It allows for slightly more spectacular individual skills since the visualized cooldown meter is primarily the main resource.