Guild Wars 2

For all theorycrafters around, I did try to extract the coefficients from the tooltips + the video (since he uses the hammer also which we know the coefficients). I THINK the coefficients are:
AA: 0.75 – 0.5 – 0.9
2: 0.85
3: 0.55 × 7
4: 0.75 (this one does not seem to be exactly like AA…)
5: 0.75

Since I didn’t try to extract the skill cast time (and since the coefficients I gave may be wrong or in any case not definitive), I cannot give any definite answer, but right now, here is an estimate of revenant PvE DPS. By using hammer 2 to open from range, then axe 4 and 5 then sword 3 2 and AA, using 2 3 4 and 5 whenever they are available, I get an average DPS over a 30s fight of about 12.5k (zerk, scholar, force, night, devastation 1,6,7 ; corruption 3,6,8; invocation 8, 25 might, 25 vuln, fury, banners). I did not include the vampirism from healing and I assumed Swift Termination> Assassin’s Annihilation.

Now I did not include quickness either. And that becomes more interesting because then, one must decide quickness or non-AA skills. Since the AA is about 9k, the question is which skill gives more than 450 additional DPS/energy unit. Unrelenting assault does, axe 4 too, but not the others. So the best way to handle energy would be to remove 2 and 5 from the rotation and use quickness whenever possible.

PS: I realize the order of the traits differ in wiki and in game…
PS2: I am too lazy to estimate how much the quickness uptime would increased the DPS. If we were not using any skill but AA, then we would have a 50% quickness uptime meaning 25% increase DPS. Here it will be less because we use also 3 and 4.

Hammer 2 can’t open however. You’re back at your starting position after the animation.
So you can’t do Hammer 2 from range and then Axe 4, 5, and Sword AA.

Also my guess is that Axe 4-5 is a waste on a single target if you have mh Sword with AA and #3.
Sword 3 may be weak in a crowded situation, but sword 5 can be used to peak damage on a single target.

I think you are confused here… Hammer 2 is the skill which has highest damage if you’re far from the enemy. It does not teleport you and back (that is skill 3). The axe has a clearly higher DPS than the sword off-hand and the sword AA. Sword 5 has no peak damage + it is a pull which you don’t want to use in the middle of a fight.

I would rather prefer sword 2 to cleave 3 targets instead of shooting out a piercing bolt. Or alternatively if that bolt chains to 3 targets like an arcing bolt that would be great. Not having cleave on 1 out of 3 of the auto attacks really hurts the dps.

Yeah, it was skill 3on hammer, sorry.

Sword 5, as said in the stream, can be used with skill 3 to docus damage on one target

Silverkey.2078:

For all theorycrafters around, I did try to extract the coefficients from the tooltips + the video (since he uses the hammer also which we know the coefficients). I THINK the coefficients are:
AA: 0.75 – 0.5 – 0.9
2: 0.85
3: 0.55 × 7
4: 0.75 (this one does not seem to be exactly like AA…)
5: 0.75

These numbers are correct, but incomplete. The second attack of the AA Chain will actually hit twice for 0.5 each direction, and the last hit in the AA chain has a delayed component that hits for 0.3 after a second or so.

Including those, you get 0.75 – 0.5×2 – 0.9 + 0.3 for the AA

The cast time for the AA chain is 2.1s as near as I can tell from the stream (Without the Increased Attack Speed Trait). Sword 3 has a 3 second total duration which includes the cast time before the damage starts and the whole attack animation.

From a damage per cast time standpoint, if the target isn’t moving at all and you get might from external sources, you won’t really want to do anything other than AA with your swords and burn energy on Impossible Odds.

Kidel.2057:

Yeah, it was skill 3on hammer, sorry.

Sword 5, as said in the stream, can be used with skill 3 to docus damage on one target

Sword 3 is not that great for pve despite looking great. It’s damage get’s watered down the more targets there are, and even if there was just one target the max damage isn’t all that.

For example Whirling Wrath or 100 blades aoe cleaves and hits repeatedly all targets in range for essentially the same max damage or more in the case of 100 blades.

The sole advantage it has is that it’s a homing attack that hits targets in a much wider range. This skill is probably far more useful in pvp. In pve where stacking is the norm this skill is far outshined by things like WW or 100B.

For solo or small group roaming in WvW this skill would be a very good skill to use. In pve it’s not as optimal.

Yeah, everything eccept AA and sword 3 is a waste. I’ll use dual sword for block, immobilize and isolation to get the best out of sword 3.

From a strictly DPS standpoint, Sword 3 isn’t worth casting either unless you need the might. It will work as a gap closer, and will certainly allow you to burst down an unsuspecting foe in PvP, but in PvE content on static mobs, it would be a DPS loss to use.

It gives 7 stacks might (or more depending on traits) and more then 7 stacks of vulnerability (8-9 average) and torment, plus gap close. It’s pretty good in pve. Weaker hits but many and fast can trigger many effects, as give you +10% skill speed. Look at the traits.

It will increase the dps of your next attacks a lot just with 7 might, 8 vuln and 10% speed. How much? 25% more?

Knox.8962:

From a strictly DPS standpoint, Sword 3 isn’t worth casting either unless you need the might. It will work as a gap closer, and will certainly allow you to burst down an unsuspecting foe in PvP, but in PvE content on static mobs, it would be a DPS loss to use.

Exactly, and this is why Shiro despite being a dps legend is actually still sub optimal in pve compared to other classes like Guards and Warriors which both have cleaving large dps aoe attacks.

It’s possible that they are building Shiro to be a single target dps legend. But it would only be acceptable if it can deal more single target dps than other classes that do more aoe dps.

Sword 3 hits 7 times for a Coefficient of 0.55 for each attack spread out over 3 seconds. That gives it a 1.28 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 7 attacks per 3 seconds or 2.333 attacks per second.

Sword AA hits for 0.75, 0.5 + 0.5, and 0.9 + 0.3 over 2.1 seconds. That gives it a total of 1.4 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 5 attacks per 2.1 seconds or 2.38 attacks per second.

So, unless you need might, you don’t want to hit sword 3 for DPS.

Sword and shiro are 2 different things. You can use mace if you want

Knox.8962:

Sword 3 hits 7 times for a Coefficient of 0.55 for each attack spread out over 3 seconds. That gives it a 1.28 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 7 attacks per 3 seconds or 2.333 attacks per second.

Sword AA hits for 0.75, 0.5 + 0.5, and 0.9 + 0.3 over 2.1 seconds. That gives it a total of 1.4 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 5 attacks per 2.1 seconds or 2.38 attacks per second.

So, unless you need might, you don’t want to hit sword 3 for DPS.

As I wrote, I know it does less damage. Read my post again, I gave you other reasons.
sword 3 attack speed is faster, so it will build up skill speed and vulnerability faster, and also gives might and gap closing, that you should factor in time calculation.

I never said it does more damage then AA. It is just needed to build might, vuln and skillspeed

DeathPanel.8362:

Knox.8962:

From a strictly DPS standpoint, Sword 3 isn’t worth casting either unless you need the might. It will work as a gap closer, and will certainly allow you to burst down an unsuspecting foe in PvP, but in PvE content on static mobs, it would be a DPS loss to use.

Exactly, and this is why Shiro despite being a dps legend is actually still sub optimal in pve compared to other classes like Guards and Warriors which both have cleaving large dps aoe attacks.

It’s possible that they are building Shiro to be a single target dps legend. But it would only be acceptable if it can deal more single target dps than other classes that do more aoe dps.

Shiro sword attacks either cleave or pierce. I don’t see any reason why they wouldn’t be used for AoE DPS.

Revenants probably still need some more damage modifiers that can be reliably used outside of the Shiro line, but when you shove all of your Shiro-Energy into Impossible Odss, the DPS is reasonable already.

You can maintain about 12.5k using the Assassin’s Presence setup, NOT counting any additional damage you’d get from being in Mallyx Stance and using Embrace the Darkness as long as you can stand the incoming damage.

That is a little on the low side, but isn’t terrible all things considered. One or two more damage modifiers that were reliable would probably do the trick.

Kidel.2057:

Knox.8962:

Sword 3 hits 7 times for a Coefficient of 0.55 for each attack spread out over 3 seconds. That gives it a 1.28 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 7 attacks per 3 seconds or 2.333 attacks per second.

Sword AA hits for 0.75, 0.5 + 0.5, and 0.9 + 0.3 over 2.1 seconds. That gives it a total of 1.4 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 5 attacks per 2.1 seconds or 2.38 attacks per second.

So, unless you need might, you don’t want to hit sword 3 for DPS.

As I wrote, I know it does less damage. Read my post again, I gave you other reasons.
sword 3 attack speed is faster, so it will build up skill speed and vulnerability faster, and also gives might and gap closing, that you should factor in time calculation.

I never said it does more damage then AA. It is just needed to build might, vuln and skillspeed

I just got done explaining that it is NOT faster. It hits fewer times per second than the Auto attack does. It will build up vulnerability MUCH Slower since the AA actually applies Vulnerability by itself without the trait. It will Proc Focused Siphoning less often. It also stacks Rapid Lacerations Slower than the auto-attack.

You press the 3 skill when you
a) want to gap close
b) want might
c) want to look like a boss
d) are bad at math

I didn’t realize the cast time was so long for sword 3. I should have looked more at cast time before trying to make a DPS estimate :p. Then this is fairly lower DPS than expected.

Sorry for the missing info on AA, I actually computed them but forgot to write them. I didn’t realize the 2nd hit did hit twice though. Ok, so AA is about 10k DPS, and now we can use full quickness since there is nothing else to do so final DPS about 12.5 k ???

edit: it seems we agree Knox

Sword 3 is more a burst thing if you pair that with quickness..But hey masterminds, can you tell me how much damage ill get in the tooltips with 2,9k power on auto? ;o

Knox.8962:

Kidel.2057:

Knox.8962:

Sword 3 hits 7 times for a Coefficient of 0.55 for each attack spread out over 3 seconds. That gives it a 1.28 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 7 attacks per 3 seconds or 2.333 attacks per second.

Sword AA hits for 0.75, 0.5 + 0.5, and 0.9 + 0.3 over 2.1 seconds. That gives it a total of 1.4 Coefficient per second damage potential. It provides procs at 5 attacks per 2.1 seconds or 2.38 attacks per second.

So, unless you need might, you don’t want to hit sword 3 for DPS.

As I wrote, I know it does less damage. Read my post again, I gave you other reasons.
sword 3 attack speed is faster, so it will build up skill speed and vulnerability faster, and also gives might and gap closing, that you should factor in time calculation.

I never said it does more damage then AA. It is just needed to build might, vuln and skillspeed

I just got done explaining that it is NOT faster. It hits fewer times per second than the Auto attack does. It will build up vulnerability MUCH Slower since the AA actually applies Vulnerability by itself without the trait. It will Proc Focused Siphoning less often. It also stacks Rapid Lacerations Slower than the auto-attack.

You press the 3 skill when you
a) want to gap close
b) want might
c) want to look like a boss
d) are bad at math

2.333 damage per second and 2.38 are pretty much the same thing and I’d trade that 0.05 damage modifier all day for 7 stacks of might (210 power), even if I have 18 already.
Plus if you factor gap close from 450 with probably no swiftness, this means you may gain from 0.5 to 1 second, meaning that in some situations 3 is the best sword skill.

It’s a good skill to start the rotation. It can be 6>9>3>1>1>1>1>1>1> legend swap>0>1>1>1>1>1>1> legend swap> repeat
(implying Mallyx as second legend. If Jalis then rotating hammers instead of elite)
But I can totally se another 3 now and then to do more damage on a moving target and gain some extra might, since the damage output is almost the same. Of course, if there is only 1 target.

Also you should add
e) 3 is better then 1 on a moving enemy
And of course
f) 1 is better then 3 if more then 1 enemy is around.

skowcia.8257:

Sword 3 is more a burst thing if you pair that with quickness..But hey masterminds, can you tell me how much damage ill get in the tooltips with 2,9k power on auto? ;o

Tooltip damage with an ascended weapon would be – 837, 1115 × 2, 2008 + 669 give or take some rounding errors.

Knox.8962:

skowcia.8257:

Sword 3 is more a burst thing if you pair that with quickness..But hey masterminds, can you tell me how much damage ill get in the tooltips with 2,9k power on auto? ;o

Tooltip damage with an ascended weapon would be – 837, 1115 × 2, 2008 + 669 give or take some rounding errors.

2k+600? What the F. I dont think it be that high. Was curious as my guard gs has 103x, 103x, 156x on auto and people already explode in wvw.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage_calculation

With Ascended sword, without modifiers

Damage = random(950, 1050) * 2900 * Modifier / Armor

Modifier for AA is 0.75 (first attack) – 0.5*2=1 (second attack) – 0.9+0.3=1.2 (third attack).

Giving a 1 average every attack

Damage = random(950, 1050) * 2900 * 1 / Armor

Average armor is around 1000, and average weapon damage too, so

Damage = 1000* 2900 * 1 / 1000 = 2900 average damage on every hit. Without crits and modifiers.

To be more precise it would be an average 2175 on first hit, 2900 total on second hit (2*0.5), and a total of 3480 on third hit. Assuming average weapon damage and 1000 armor on opponent.

With skill#3 you get 1595*7 = 11165 with no modifiers and critical hits. It’s solid.

If you crit with 200% critical damage and a full 30% damage modifier from traits, you reach 7540 with every hit. Am I wrong?

Silverkey.2078:

Sorry for the missing info on AA, I actually computed them but forgot to write them. I didn’t realize the 2nd hit did hit twice though. Ok, so AA is about 10k DPS, and now we can use full quickness since there is nothing else to do so final DPS about 12.5 k ???

Including Rampant Vex Procs and Focused Siphoning Procs but without any Impossible Odds uptime or any Mallyx useage I’m coming up with 10.4k DPS. If you factor in 40% IO uptime, that number jumps up to 12.5k

Dropping into Mallyx and using the elite for the stat increase will obviously be a damage increase, but how much you can tolerate extra incoming damage will be a pretty big factor in how much damage you can do.

Knox.8962:

Silverkey.2078:

Sorry for the missing info on AA, I actually computed them but forgot to write them. I didn’t realize the 2nd hit did hit twice though. Ok, so AA is about 10k DPS, and now we can use full quickness since there is nothing else to do so final DPS about 12.5 k ???

Including Rampant Vex Procs and Focused Siphoning Procs but without any Impossible Odds uptime or any Mallyx useage I’m coming up with 10.4k DPS. If you factor in 40% IO uptime, that number jumps up to 12.5k

Dropping into Mallyx and using the elite for the stat increase will obviously be a damage increase, but how much you can tolerate extra incoming damage will be a pretty big factor in how much damage you can do.

Just curious, how are those numbers on a dps guardian, including quickness shout and save yourself?
Or if you don’t have guardian, at least something else to do a comparison.

Thanks.

I guess the 1000 armor is for a PvP/WvW enemy without added toughness? I never actually asked myself that but what is the average armor of a PvE enemy? I used 2200 because it is the armor of a medium-armor golem :p

skowcia.8257:

2k+600? What the F. I dont think it be that high. Was curious as my guard gs has 103x, 103x, 156x on auto and people already explode in wvw.

Almost every other class has much higher damage modifiers from traits than the Revenant does currently. The base damage on Revenant sword is quite high, but there really isn’t a ton of damage support through the traits in the current implementation.

Conditional damage increases (like Fiery Wrath or Power of the Virtuous) don’t show up in the tooltip numbers, but you’ll apply them when you actually do the damage. Additionally, the guardian also applies burning stacks which add to the damage he does.

Kidel.2057:

Just curious, how are those numbers on a dps guardian, including quickness shout and save yourself?
Or if you don’t have guardian, at least something else to do a comparison.

I’m not sure off hand what a GS Guardian is capable of, but a Hammer/Mace Guardian is somewhere around 13.5k DPS

A Phalanx Strength GS warrior who hands out party might like candy and applies Empower Allies to the group will do about13k DPS currently.

Staff Elementalist and Grenade/Rifle Engy are both in the neighborhood of 17.5k DPS when fully buffed.

You also get 3 stacks of vulnerability on each sword hit, so damage is higher

From traits you can get:
25% chance to add vulnerability on hit
7% damage on vulnerable enemies
300 Ferocity (= 20% critical damage, so a flat 20% damage if you have 100% crit rate or 70% crit rate + fury + trait)
20% damage on target with 50% life or less
7% damage when in Fury
10% more critical chance under Fury
3% damage for each condition on yourself

So, with 1 stack of vulnerability and 0 conditions, it’s a 75% more damage under fury and considering 70% crit rate and 200% crit damage if I’m not mistaken.
With more vulnerability or condition it may go over 100% damage modifier, plus 200% crit damage.

I’m pretty sure that average dps won’t benefit from all this stuff, but can still be pretty high.

The bare minimum from traits after 1 AA is 8% buff. No Fury and foe at 100%. Being able to range from 8% to 100% just from traits is not bad at all.

the real problem is the fury uptime

All of those numbers referenced above were assuming a full stack of 25 Vulnerability, 25 might, 100% fury uptime, 45% of time under 50% health, and all the relevant traits factored in. The crit chance and crit damage is calculated into the total as well. They also include food buffs, sigil effects etc.

I’d say given the fact that they are applying a decent bit of Vulnerability and providing 150 ferocity to the group, the overall number should be somewhere around 14-14.5k. You might get close to that depending on how you value the Mallyx DPS contribution, but I didn’t have time to really play with how sustainable the Mallyx ult is during the last beta.

edit: Forums are acting a bit strange. I keep posting before the post that I’m replying to.

Knox.8962:

All of those numbers referenced above were assuming a full stack of 25 Vulnerability, 25 might, 100% fury uptime, 45% of time under 50% health, and all the relevant traits factored in. The crit chance and crit damage is calculated into the total as well. They also include food buffs, sigil effects etc.

You mean the 12.5k dps?

That’s low then. Average would probably be way lower. Also factoring low cleave and low party buffs that may be a problem.[/quote]

[edit]

I’d say given the fact that they are applying a decent bit of Vulnerability and providing 150 ferocity to the group, the overall number should be somewhere around 14-14.5k. You might get close to that depending on how you value the Mallyx DPS contribution, but I didn’t have time to really play with how sustainable the Mallyx ult is during the last beta.

Uhm, but you said you factored 25 vuln and the whole crit damage. Plus i doubt fury uptime can be 100%, depending on the group.

It’s going to be lower then 12k.

Edit: oh, I see, you’re adding the support provided by the Revenant to the group as Revenant dps.
Did you do the same with Guardian?

The same assumptions are used for all of those other class numbers. The contribution to the group from each build isn’t equal, but when you’re comparing theoretical max DPS output, you usually assume that whatever group you are in has a full stack of might and Vuln and fury up.

Elementalist and PS Warrior are both phenomenal might stackers, and they also provide a bunch of aoe fury if needed. That is why those are some of the most popular classes in PvE groups.

I did not factor in the DPS boosts from the Revenant into any of those numbers directly. I just used it as a baseline for placing the Revenant DPS into the pecking order somewhere. Generally the more group support a spec provides, the less damage they tend to do. Elementalist and Engineer are outliers at the moment as they provide damage buffs while still doing a ton of damage.

I think it is hard to provide a DPS number-equivalent for a non-offensive support. The 150 ferocity are definitely nice, that’s a bit less than 10% added damage to your party. Now to be fair, ranger brings 150 precision and 7.5% increased damage with spirits and is still not very much used in dungeon. The revenant brings might mostly for himself, so its main role would be vulnerability, which is not really unique.

In terms of defensive support, healing is currently not so useful, the invuln from Jalis is on too long cast time, the projectile barrier is nice but somewhat small and reflect is better. Currently, with its rather low DPS, I don’t quite see revenant as such a useful addition to a party.

Now numbers are not final, Glint may be an offensive support legend, so the future may be brighter than it currently seems.

And most importantly, “challenging group content”…

So, again, assuming full vuln, fury, might and so on, factoring all traits, without factoring group damage, mace guardian is 13k dps and sword revenant with no shiro upkeep is 12,5k, right?
Or you did count upkeep because you also factored quickness?

Mallyx upkeep is probably stronger however, even with no other sources of quickness.

The 12.5k DPS number is what you can do using Impossible Odds as much as possible (roughly 40% of the time)

Mallyx will obviously increase that number, but it is hard to say how much.

How much does Mallyx add? Is it 15% of all attributes (so DPS wise power + crit chance and crit damage) or only “internal” (some excluding might) or only base attribute? The first one would be more than 30% DPS increase but at a lower upkeep cost.

Knox.8962:

The 12.5k DPS number is what you can do using Impossible Odds as much as possible (roughly 40% of the time)

Mallyx will obviously increase that number, but it is hard to say how much.

So the burst dps while using Impossible Odds or with a source of quickness is actually higher, right?

Silverkey.2078:

How much does Mallyx add? Is it 15% of all attributes (so DPS wise power + crit chance and crit damage) or only “internal” (some excluding might) or only base attribute? The first one would be more than 30% DPS increase but at a lower upkeep cost.

Mallyx upkeep lasts longer then Shiro’s (-8 vs -10 upkeep)
And yes, you get 15% on attack, crit rate and crit damage, so it’s pretty good.
You get self torment however.

Kidel.2057:

So the burst dps while using Impossible Odds or with a source of quickness is actually higher, right?

Yes. Your burst with IO up would be higher. You’d be pulling about 15.6k while IO was active.

Knox.8962:

Kidel.2057:

So the burst dps while using Impossible Odds or with a source of quickness is actually higher, right?

Yes. Your burst with IO up would be higher. You’d be pulling about 15.6k while IO was active.

That seems good on paper, but in any realistic situation I don’t see Revenant’s damage higher then GS Guardian’s atm. Guardian gets many damage modifiers “free” with almost no condition required and has more cleave.

We’ll see.