Remove Energy cost from Renegade F-Skills

Remove Energy cost from Renegade F-Skills

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

As title says. Renegade already has a very difficult (if not impossible) Energy management on Kalla.

Removing Energy cost from Renegade F-Skills will not only benefit Kalla, but also the energy management of core Legends, that would be disrupted by the Renegade F-Skills.

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Posted by: Griffith.7238

Griffith.7238

I mean this is the whole reason for the argument to remove energy cost on weapon skills. Like what were they even thinking? Citadel Bombardment costs 40 FREAKING ENERGY… 40!!! If you wanted to use this in a fight you’d have to either stand around and auto or legend swap just so you could follow it up with some weapon skills. It’s just ridiculous how held back this class is.

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Posted by: Eversor.5186

Eversor.5186

held back , cause on release it was God mode, and yea energy cost on f’s is stupid I barely used them in pvp

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Posted by: messiah.1908

messiah.1908

the problem with F skills is that they dont do much. the cost can be hight if the reward is high too.
f2 gain 5 might common and cost 20 nrg and 10 sec cd???? – maybe cost 20 nrg and gain 5 stacks of might, fury, regen, protection, vigor to allies. i will use it if it cost 20 nrg and have 10 sec cd

f3 – cost 40 nrg 15 sec cd for what maybe 1-2 hits about 1k . it should give direct dmg also and higher one like 1k per hit. also the legions shott chill and torment also to burning. for 40 nrg and 15 sec cd it will be worthy

f4 – common alacrity… we have no nrg to use skills. if it should renew my ability maybe give me nrg back like 50% back. cost no nrg cd 40 sec

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

40 Energy on F3 is the proof that whoever made this Elite Spec has never really used Revenant, nor has any idea on how it should be used.

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Posted by: Euthymias.7984

Euthymias.7984

I’d like to see the F2 Skill Stunbreak instead of the heal tbh.
Make the heal cleanse Condis while pulsing to reward staying in the AoE instead of reducing condition damage, because that just doesnt work for survival when you’re already pinned to an area for maximum benefit during.

(edited by Euthymias.7984)

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Posted by: Caeledh.5437

Caeledh.5437

Remove the cooldowns instead.

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Posted by: Arkantos.7460

Arkantos.7460

I NEVER used Kallas Fskills cause of to high cost and not good reward of using any of them.
Ever tried to land a hit with citadell bombardment?…. this skill is good on paper but so slow in action, i hope anet will buff them with no cost of energie.

Good Thiefs are average,
Skilled Thiefs are dangerous

(edited by Arkantos.7460)

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

I don’t know about removal, but trimming it would definitely be advised, especially for Citadel Bombardment and orders from above.

Bombardment already has a 15s cooldown and lack of any physical damage component holding it back. 40 energy is just too much especially since we need that same energy for weapon skills and utilities.

Orders from above are basically 4s alacrity on 20s cooldown. 6 if traited.
Now let’s remove the magic and look under the hood.
4s “alacrity” = 1.33s shorter cooldowns for those affected. Once every 20s. Would you pay 30 energy for that? I wouldn’t.

(edited by ZeftheWicked.3076)

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Posted by: otto.5684

otto.5684

Remove the cooldowns instead.

That will not help. The skills will be competing on energy with utilities, weapon and heroic.

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Posted by: Selendile.9106

Selendile.9106

It’s not the energy that’s the problem. It’s the fact that there is no conceivable reason to USE them over other things. Effective use of our energy is the core mechanic of our class, and as it is now, there is no reason to waste energy on these skills when we get more bang from our buck on other abilities.

The skill is already balanced due to the cooldown. Trim the energy cost slightly and make the abilities more appealing to use. That’s all they need.

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Posted by: Swiftwynd.1685

Swiftwynd.1685

I don’t know about removal, but trimming it would definitely be advised, especially for Citadel Bombardment and orders from above.

Bombardment already has a 15s cooldown and lack of any physical damage component holding it back. 40 energy is just too much especially since we need that same energy for weapon skills and utilities.

Orders from above are basically 4s alacrity on 20s cooldown. 6 if traited.
Now let’s remove the magic and look under the hood.
4s “alacrity” = 1.33s shorter cooldowns for those affected. Once every 20s. Would you pay 30 energy for that? I wouldn’t.

Well, not saying its perfect, but my ventari healer rev will love the alacrity. Using Orders allowed me to maintain permanent alacrity from range, something a chronomancer cannit do due to shield phantasms.

While this isnt extremely relevent now, this might be super important in new raids and give ventari revs a new niche, along with kalas elite to use up the rest of the energy before swapping back to Ventari.

It will absolutely have a place on my raid support for some fights.

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Posted by: messiah.1908

messiah.1908

I don’t know about removal, but trimming it would definitely be advised, especially for Citadel Bombardment and orders from above.

Bombardment already has a 15s cooldown and lack of any physical damage component holding it back. 40 energy is just too much especially since we need that same energy for weapon skills and utilities.

Orders from above are basically 4s alacrity on 20s cooldown. 6 if traited.
Now let’s remove the magic and look under the hood.
4s “alacrity” = 1.33s shorter cooldowns for those affected. Once every 20s. Would you pay 30 energy for that? I wouldn’t.

Well, not saying its perfect, but my ventari healer rev will love the alacrity. Using Orders allowed me to maintain permanent alacrity from range, something a chronomancer cannit do due to shield phantasms.

While this isnt extremely relevent now, this might be super important in new raids and give ventari revs a new niche, along with kalas elite to use up the rest of the energy before swapping back to Ventari.

It will absolutely have a place on my raid support for some fights.

2 sec every 20 sec which cost 30 nrg. no ty

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Posted by: Swiftwynd.1685

Swiftwynd.1685

I don’t know about removal, but trimming it would definitely be advised, especially for Citadel Bombardment and orders from above.

Bombardment already has a 15s cooldown and lack of any physical damage component holding it back. 40 energy is just too much especially since we need that same energy for weapon skills and utilities.

Orders from above are basically 4s alacrity on 20s cooldown. 6 if traited.
Now let’s remove the magic and look under the hood.
4s “alacrity” = 1.33s shorter cooldowns for those affected. Once every 20s. Would you pay 30 energy for that? I wouldn’t.

Well, not saying its perfect, but my ventari healer rev will love the alacrity. Using Orders allowed me to maintain permanent alacrity from range, something a chronomancer cannit do due to shield phantasms.

While this isnt extremely relevent now, this might be super important in new raids and give ventari revs a new niche, along with kalas elite to use up the rest of the energy before swapping back to Ventari.

It will absolutely have a place on my raid support for some fights.

2 sec every 20 sec which cost 30 nrg. no ty

Wrong.

You build up alacrity in ventari, and shift to off legend, get 6 seconds of alacrity to last you just enough time to swap back into ventari to continue to receive alacrity.

You then swap back to off legend after ventari heal spam and continue the chain. Gives you a bit extra energy to, for example, summon kallas elite or heal.

This can all be done at range, something chronos cannot replicate easily.

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Posted by: messiah.1908

messiah.1908

I don’t know about removal, but trimming it would definitely be advised, especially for Citadel Bombardment and orders from above.

Bombardment already has a 15s cooldown and lack of any physical damage component holding it back. 40 energy is just too much especially since we need that same energy for weapon skills and utilities.

Orders from above are basically 4s alacrity on 20s cooldown. 6 if traited.
Now let’s remove the magic and look under the hood.
4s “alacrity” = 1.33s shorter cooldowns for those affected. Once every 20s. Would you pay 30 energy for that? I wouldn’t.

Well, not saying its perfect, but my ventari healer rev will love the alacrity. Using Orders allowed me to maintain permanent alacrity from range, something a chronomancer cannit do due to shield phantasms.

While this isnt extremely relevent now, this might be super important in new raids and give ventari revs a new niche, along with kalas elite to use up the rest of the energy before swapping back to Ventari.

It will absolutely have a place on my raid support for some fights.

2 sec every 20 sec which cost 30 nrg. no ty

Wrong.

You build up alacrity in ventari, and shift to off legend, get 6 seconds of alacrity to last you just enough time to swap back into ventari to continue to receive alacrity.

You then swap back to off legend after ventari heal spam and continue the chain. Gives you a bit extra energy to, for example, summon kallas elite or heal.

This can all be done at range, something chronos cannot replicate easily.

ok ventari you say – every 2 sec i get 3 sec alacrity. which means every 1 sec i get 3 sec alacrity. build it up with the cost of 20 nrg. swap to gain 50 nrg and waste 30 nrg which give 6 sec alacrity. than w8 about 9 sec to swap back and only with 20 nrg left to do nothing but w8 for more nrg to use kalla skills .

its better to stay in ventari and heal mean while. to gain 2 sec more alacrity which means 0.66 cd. common

the skills should enhance our nrg abilities not alacrity like gives back 50% nrg with 40 sec cd.

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Posted by: Swiftwynd.1685

Swiftwynd.1685

I don’t know about removal, but trimming it would definitely be advised, especially for Citadel Bombardment and orders from above.

Bombardment already has a 15s cooldown and lack of any physical damage component holding it back. 40 energy is just too much especially since we need that same energy for weapon skills and utilities.

Orders from above are basically 4s alacrity on 20s cooldown. 6 if traited.
Now let’s remove the magic and look under the hood.
4s “alacrity” = 1.33s shorter cooldowns for those affected. Once every 20s. Would you pay 30 energy for that? I wouldn’t.

Well, not saying its perfect, but my ventari healer rev will love the alacrity. Using Orders allowed me to maintain permanent alacrity from range, something a chronomancer cannit do due to shield phantasms.

While this isnt extremely relevent now, this might be super important in new raids and give ventari revs a new niche, along with kalas elite to use up the rest of the energy before swapping back to Ventari.

It will absolutely have a place on my raid support for some fights.

2 sec every 20 sec which cost 30 nrg. no ty

Wrong.

You build up alacrity in ventari, and shift to off legend, get 6 seconds of alacrity to last you just enough time to swap back into ventari to continue to receive alacrity.

You then swap back to off legend after ventari heal spam and continue the chain. Gives you a bit extra energy to, for example, summon kallas elite or heal.

This can all be done at range, something chronos cannot replicate easily.

ok ventari you say – every 2 sec i get 3 sec alacrity. which means every 1 sec i get 3 sec alacrity. build it up with the cost of 20 nrg. swap to gain 50 nrg and waste 30 nrg which give 6 sec alacrity. than w8 about 9 sec to swap back and only with 20 nrg left to do nothing but w8 for more nrg to use kalla skills .

its better to stay in ventari and heal mean while. to gain 2 sec more alacrity which means 0.66 cd. common

the skills should enhance our nrg abilities not alacrity like gives back 50% nrg with 40 sec cd.

Nope

Plenty of situations where the heal from Kalla + her elite would actually be worth weaving in. It does maintain the Alacrity just fine, and you also arent considering that you actually have 100 total energy to use over the duration of being in Kalla’s stance for the 10 seconds, 50 of which is front loaded on swapping.

We consume 30 Energy with Orders From Above, and 10 with the Heal.

This leaves us with a spare 60 energy to use before we have to swap. Kalla’s elite draws -9 energy per second, so as long as we pause for a brief moment, you can upkeep Kalla’s elite after the Heal and OFA for the remainder of your time in Kalla until you shift back into Ventari.

Assuming the Heal spirit isnt interrupted, its not bad heal over time + the elite’s life steal and additional damage.

then its back to Ventari to resume.

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

Just a short reminder here – alacrity does not stack in duration. If you overcast alacrit at start you’ll end up running on empty and without alacrity real fast.

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Posted by: Swiftwynd.1685

Swiftwynd.1685

Just a short reminder here – alacrity does not stack in duration. If you overcast alacrit at start you’ll end up running on empty and without alacrity real fast.

Mostly wrong.

From the wiki

Alacrity cannot be applied to characters that already have over 40 seconds of Alacrity applied to them. This limit increases to 60 seconds for mesmers with the Improved Alacrity Improved Alacrity trait. Additionally there is an application cap of 9 alacrity applications.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Remove the cooldowns instead.

that would be OP and still mess up with energy management on other legends.

Costs on F skills are simply too high.

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Posted by: Caeledh.5437

Caeledh.5437

That will not help. The skills will be competing on energy with utilities, weapon and heroic.

Nonsense.

You’re thinking like every other profession where you just activate every ability as it comes off cooldown to maximise DPS.

Obviously with energy in the mix, you need to be smart and spend that energy wisely.

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Posted by: Professor Sprout.1560

Professor Sprout.1560

That will not help. The skills will be competing on energy with utilities, weapon and heroic.

Nonsense.

You’re thinking like every other profession where you just activate every ability as it comes off cooldown to maximise DPS.

Obviously with energy in the mix, you need to be smart and spend that energy wisely.

I have observed from your comments in this and other threads that you are a big fan of the revenant’s energy mechanic and how it distinguishes this class from the others. That you might be concerned with suggestions that would shift the focus for the class’ skills away from energy and towards cooldowns is a respectable position to take.

However, remember this: the energy mechanic was designed to pool the cooldowns for individual skills into a common pool so that the Revenant has to make choices between different skills as their energy recharges. I would argue that the Revenant’s design philosophy is best served by limiting the skills within the common pool to those that will make these choices as genuine and interesting as possible – and although I would invite you to convince me otherwise I am currently of the opinion that adding the citadel orders to the common pool hurts rather than helps the player’s experience of making these choices.

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Posted by: otto.5684

otto.5684

That will not help. The skills will be competing on energy with utilities, weapon and heroic.

Nonsense.

You’re thinking like every other profession where you just activate every ability as it comes off cooldown to maximise DPS.

Obviously with energy in the mix, you need to be smart and spend that energy wisely.

I always love this crap. No other class has utilities and weapons competing for resource to function. There is a reason for that. The implication is that cuz Rev has access to 6 utilities + 2 heroics then Rev is as an advantage. This is 100% false cuz the utilities are mostly unsable crap. Take Mallyx, which is arguably one of the stronger legends: CC break costing 60% of your resource, a strong AOE torment application, mediocre confusion application and a heroic that only use is to be spammed in PvE.

How do you use Mallyx in PvP? Spam AOE and use CC break. Nothing else is of any use. PvE, just use heroic till you run down energy. Is this something well designed? And even if we can say it works, it surely does not for Jalis (which is nothing more than hammers spam in PvE) and barely for Ventari.

Renegade takes this broken system, which usually ends-up in spamming one utility, and make it worse, adding F2-F4 skills requiring energy on top of everything else. All the utilities will go unused in PvE, just spam heroic. All other utilities will go unused cuz energy costs cannot support any use for these utilities. Same in PvP. It will probably be either spam the heroic or daze utility.

I do not want to spam one utility cuz that is all what the energy can support. This is stupid design.

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Posted by: Alchimist.4738

Alchimist.4738

I’d rather see an overall buff where Revenant starts combat with 100% energy rather than with 50%, I mean energy is sort of like mana, in which game do you start a fight with half your mana and no potion, do thieves start with half initiative, besides energy grows so slowly a player will never exceed 50% once in combat which also makes traits like Charged Mist rather useless, this trait should also grant a faster recharge rate for energy with eventually the drawback of having longer cooldown for utilities.

(edited by Alchimist.4738)

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Posted by: Selendile.9106

Selendile.9106

I’d rather see an overall buff where Revenant starts combat with 100% energy rather than with 50%, I mean energy is sort of like mana, in which game do you start a fight with half your mana and no potion, do thieves start with half initiative, besides energy grows so slowly a player will never exceed 50% once in combat which also makes traits like Charged Mist rather useless, this trait should also grant a faster recharge rate for energy with eventually the drawback of having longer cooldown for utilities.

This x2000. It’s such a broken system. If you have more than 50 energy after the beginning of the fight, it literally means you’re standing there auto attacking. In other words, you’re not doing anything. Absolutely no reason not to start at 100%.

- Sele

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

held back , cause on release it was God mode, and yea energy cost on f’s is stupid I barely used them in pvp

Well, in PvP. Frankly I suspect all 25 remaining sPvP players would be very upset if balance would ignore that game mode :P

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: messiah.1908

messiah.1908

held back , cause on release it was God mode, and yea energy cost on f’s is stupid I barely used them in pvp

Well, in PvP. Frankly I suspect all 25 remaining sPvP players would be very upset if balance would ignore that game mode :P

hmm hmm 26 my dear