Guild Wars 2

call me whatever you like,tell me I don’t know how to rev but…. lol, I never lack energy and you do

Eversor.5186:

call me whatever you like,tell me I don’t know how to rev but…. lol, I never lack energy and you do

I’m not going to call you anything, because that would be mean :P. What spec do you play? Because as a PvE Mallyx build, I am CONSTANTLY out. Without even using the elite skill.

Frankly, for what it does, Pain Absorption shouldn’t have such a steep energy cost. AT ALL. Using it ONCE almost completely kills my dps. lol

Eversor.5186:

call me whatever you like,tell me I don’t know how to rev but…. lol, I never lack energy and you do

Once again you don’t get it… No one here is saying that we lack energy. We are saying that it’s an issue that you are FORCED to legend swap on CD just so you can have energy. Having two sets of utilities was suppose to be the benefit to playing a Rev. It was SUPPOSE to make us versatile ,but because we can’t even so much as use weapon skills without energy we are forced to swap the moment we run out. This ruins whatever so called versatility we have. Rather than swapping when we NEED to in order to adapt to our situation we HAVE to swap on CD so we can use even weapon skills. This fact coupled with insane energy costs on utilities as well as cooldowns on the ones that have decent energy costs ensures that we can’t take advantage of our core class mechanic to play a fast paced, high APM class which is what the Rev should be.

Removing energy from weapons will cause issues. Better solution is to focus on Legends where energy cause is an issue; Jalis and Renegade.

otto.5684:

Removing energy from weapons will cause issues. Better solution is to focus on Legends where energy cause is an issue; Jalis and Renegade.

Curious what issues you think it would cause.

The hell balance has to do with clunky design? Stop posting that nonsence about balance in thread about design flaw (according to many). Just because rev does good dps or is used in every game mode (in wvw for example we are basically resistance bots, great and very engaging role) doesn’t mean it has interesting or logical implementation. As far as i remember, we were supposed to swap legend when we needed utilities from other legend, not when we need energy to attack. That idea was thrown away later and now some players are even praising that. And stop that “i am rev main” please. Almost everyone here are rev mains, I have 1600 hours on my rev, that doesn’t add any weight to our arguments.

I will say it again, they can not nerf weapon skills we currently spam on cooldown in pve because it will mess with our dps, and we are not top in that. The only change that will be needed are energy costs on utilities because we will actually have energy for them, they will most likely need to raise energy costs on some of them and thats about it. The current rev is a mess to balance anyway, you can’t properly balance it because some revs will burn all energy on weapon skills and won’t have energy for utilities while other one will save it to spam same utility 3 times in a row.

Selendile.9106:

Eversor.5186:

call me whatever you like,tell me I don’t know how to rev but…. lol, I never lack energy and you do

I’m not going to call you anything, because that would be mean :P. What spec do you play? Because as a PvE Mallyx build, I am CONSTANTLY out. Without even using the elite skill.

Frankly, for what it does, Pain Absorption shouldn’t have such a steep energy cost. AT ALL. Using it ONCE almost completely kills my dps. lol

I talk pvp wise or WvW I dont pve…sage amulet/berserker rune Retrib/invo/coruption, hammer- mace/sword
yea pain absorption cost alot it’s a freakin break stun,if you could do it like 4-5 times it would be stupid and pretty sure anet doesn’t want us to sit in only 1 legend, the point is to create a sinergy between your 2 legends

Eversor.5186:

Selendile.9106:

Eversor.5186:

call me whatever you like,tell me I don’t know how to rev but…. lol, I never lack energy and you do

I’m not going to call you anything, because that would be mean :P. What spec do you play? Because as a PvE Mallyx build, I am CONSTANTLY out. Without even using the elite skill.

Frankly, for what it does, Pain Absorption shouldn’t have such a steep energy cost. AT ALL. Using it ONCE almost completely kills my dps. lol

I talk pvp wise or WvW I dont pve…sage amulet/berserker rune Retrib/invo/coruption, hammer- mace/sword
yea pain absorption cost alot it’s a freakin break stun,if you could do it like 4-5 times it would be stupid and pretty sure anet doesn’t want us to sit in only 1 legend, the point is to create a sinergy between your 2 legends

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT .. we are saying that we should be able to choose when to switch not have to do it on CD just for energy.

Griffith.7238:

Eversor.5186:

Selendile.9106:

Eversor.5186:

call me whatever you like,tell me I don’t know how to rev but…. lol, I never lack energy and you do

I’m not going to call you anything, because that would be mean :P. What spec do you play? Because as a PvE Mallyx build, I am CONSTANTLY out. Without even using the elite skill.

Frankly, for what it does, Pain Absorption shouldn’t have such a steep energy cost. AT ALL. Using it ONCE almost completely kills my dps. lol

I talk pvp wise or WvW I dont pve…sage amulet/berserker rune Retrib/invo/coruption, hammer- mace/sword
yea pain absorption cost alot it’s a freakin break stun,if you could do it like 4-5 times it would be stupid and pretty sure anet doesn’t want us to sit in only 1 legend, the point is to create a sinergy between your 2 legends

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT .. we are saying that we should be able to choose when to switch not have to do it on CD just for energy.

This. Swapping legends isn’t something we do for utilities when the need arises, we have to do it to maintain consistent damage.

Eversor.5186:

Selendile.9106:

Eversor.5186:

call me whatever you like,tell me I don’t know how to rev but…. lol, I never lack energy and you do

I’m not going to call you anything, because that would be mean :P. What spec do you play? Because as a PvE Mallyx build, I am CONSTANTLY out. Without even using the elite skill.

Frankly, for what it does, Pain Absorption shouldn’t have such a steep energy cost. AT ALL. Using it ONCE almost completely kills my dps. lol

I talk pvp wise or WvW I dont pve…sage amulet/berserker rune Retrib/invo/coruption, hammer- mace/sword
yea pain absorption cost alot it’s a freakin break stun,if you could do it like 4-5 times it would be stupid and pretty sure anet doesn’t want us to sit in only 1 legend, the point is to create a sinergy between your 2 legends

but as it stands now, good luck having the energy to use it when you need it even once. unless you sit on your energy, which makes you a burden on your party anyway because you’re more-or-less just auto attacking at that point.

frankly, a little off topic, but no other class has these kinds of drawbacks. no other class has to sacrifice damage for the use of support abilities. but meh, maybe that’s just me.

I think it is unreasonable to attach energy costs to weaponskills, and it gets even more ridiculous when you see the evolution of elite specs. With Renegade, we now have 3 additional F actions that also eat energy up.

Seeing as how each legend is designed for a different purpose, it does not make sense to say “well just switch legends and get more energy” – because then you have to shift purpose.

Using Shiro as an example; do other classes sacrifice all of their skill usage to get a few seconds of Quickness? Because with Shiro, thats what you get. Auto attacks with quickness at the cost of everything else.

Do other classes have to choose between using an elite skill and their entire other rotation? Because thats what you get with Rev.

And it’s not like we’re given any options in the trait lines either. There’s nothing to decrease energy expenditure or increase energy gain. Hell, we don’t even get to start off combat with a full energy bar even!

And the thing so many people are missing, is that as a Rev you’ve already “made a sacrifice” for the sake of the effective power you get. We don’t get to choose our skills. They are pre-selected based on the legendary you channel. The price has already been paid – and we’re being short-changed.

So what are my ideas to improve this then?

1. The #1 skill now generates energy per hit. With Shiro this should be just enough to maintain the Quickness effect – to give you an example of how much energy you should get (because trying to use Quickness indefinitely with anything else is OP).
2. Add/modify traits that result in energy gain. “When you kill an enemy, generate 30% energy”, “Energy now caps at 150% and regens to 100% out of combat”, “Switching stances increases energy generation from basic attacks by 100% for 5 seconds”
3. Skills that constantly drain energy no longer have an activation energy cost.

This topic comes up a lot so I know a lot of the ideas we’ve all come up with have been rehashed many times. Personally I like playing Rev a lot, but do think something needs to change in regard to CDs, weapon energy costs, or energy management. LoreChief’s ideas seem good. A way to gain back energy would be helpful. Also helpful would be having energy slowly drain when leaving combat. It really stinks to be out of combat for one second and lose up to 50% energy you’d worked up.

this is the way i see it

other class have cd. thief got initiative for weapon and cd for utilities.
rev got nrg across the board while having lower cd on skills.
if we had only nrg than the cost would be too high. if we had only cd we would be like other classes.

nrg on weapon – if you lower or delelte the nrg from them you must to increase the cd. warrior and guard (heavy class) have better cd on weapon with no nrg on them. thus :
staff nrg is fine but cd should be lower by 20% (we also lack weapon skill cd trait)
mace – ok
sword – maybe 20% reduce cd. sword 4 (second one ) should be 5 nrg.
axe – 20% reduce cd. nrg is ok

i know ppl will disagree but removing the nrg from weapon will cause to increase in cd which makes us like any other class.
the lower cd makes attack faster. to surprise enemy etc.

the problem i think is within the utilities and legend.

now the utilities should support our dmg or sustain during the fight. they also got lower cd while drain our nrg. again if we had enough nrg or no nrg demand the cd would be much higher which made us like every other class.

jallis – use as bunker bruiser. give you stability, cc and bit dmg aoe. healing skill 30 sec like any other class but cost 5 nrg have no reduce cd trait why?
Soothing stone – should be 20 sec and lower the healing part by 20%, remove 5 conditions and is water field (for blast finisher), gives 5 nrg for every condition removed.
Inspire reinforcement – nrg should be 25
forced engagement – nrg should be 20
vengeful hammers – in pvp dmg should be higher and also healing part by 50% both.
RotGD – nrg should be 30 . reduce also condition dmg by 50%.

this will open the bruiser build or bunker build bit more.

shiro – again healing skill very tricky . should be 25 sec the base healing is low atm. so adjust the healing from the dagger. duration 10 sec. for every dagger attack you gain 5 nrg
RS – nrg 25
PT – nrg 30, cd

mallyx
healing skill remove nrg cost. for every condition on you, you gain 5 nrg
PA – 30 nrg
UA – 25 nrg
BE – 15 nrg
EtD – should transfer 1 condition on you to nearby foes every sec. -10 nrg.
atm mallyx is worst condition applier compare to necro abilities. also resistance is more easy to removed.

ventari – they did good job lowering nrg.
PT – for every ally heal with it you gain 1 nrg.
also it needs better condition handling . like
PE – should cleanse 5 conditions.
or
PS – every second ppl inside of it will convert 1 condition to boon. cost -10 nrg

so with bit less nrg and abilitieis to gain nrg from healing skills we can become more potent in fight cause our lower cd on weapon skills and utilities. our dps can be higher and also our sustain

regarding renegade – f2-f4 should be something else entirely .the cd is high also the nrg. their effectiveness is worse. they should be with nrg only. unique to us. the effect is so weak that even with only cd or only nrg i wont use them.

Fractured.3928:

otto.5684:

Removing energy from weapons will cause issues. Better solution is to focus on Legends where energy cause is an issue; Jalis and Renegade.

Curious what issues you think it would cause.

Mallyx in sPvP in particular is going to become too much. Currently the spam AOE chill and torment is somewhat gated by the energy consumption on weapons. If that is gone it is going to be torment + chill fest. Plus, spaming CC break.

Glint is gated by the same mechanics as well. If no weapons cost, you can easily hold protection 100% protection for the entire group even in sPvP.

I have issues with cost of some Shiro skills, but with no weapons cost, CC break spam will become a thing.

Jalis can use ulti on 8 sec CD if weapons have no cost. Which means it will only have 3 sec down time. Mix that with protection from Glint. You see where this is going.

We are much better going into Jalis and Renegade (possible some Shiro and Ventari skills as well) and reducing the energy cost of utilities extensively (since they have CD and add reasonable CDs for some). Removing weapons energy all together, will lead to skill spam, with no drawback, on skills that should not be spammed.

otto.5684:

Fractured.3928:

otto.5684:

Removing energy from weapons will cause issues. Better solution is to focus on Legends where energy cause is an issue; Jalis and Renegade.

Curious what issues you think it would cause.

Mallyx in sPvP in particular is going to become too much. Currently the spam AOE chill and torment is somewhat gated by the energy consumption on weapons. If that is gone it is going to be torment + chill fest. Plus, spaming CC break.

Glint is gated by the same mechanics as well. If no weapons cost, you can easily hold protection 100% protection for the entire group even in sPvP.

I have issues with cost of some Shiro skills, but with no weapons cost, CC break spam will become a thing.

Jalis can use ulti on 8 sec CD if weapons have no cost. Which means it will only have 3 sec down time. Mix that with protection from Glint. You see where this is going.

We are much better going into Jalis and Renegade (possible some Shiro and Ventari skills as well) and reducing the energy cost of utilities extensively (since they have CD and add reasonable CDs for some). Removing weapons energy all together, will lead to skill spam, with no drawback, on skills that should not be spammed.

Nothing stops you from doing that now either, just without using other weapon abilities rather than auto-attack. That is basically what you do as rev in wvw blob fights – spam pain absorption. I personally think that removing weapon costs and increasing (and rebalancing, because some are weird for what they do compared to others) utility costs would be better idea.

go wonder why I rek all the rev I fight 1 v 1…you all obviously don’t know how to manage your energy …no energy cost on weapon skills cmon , want a God Mode f5? or condi cleanse on each utilities?

Snowywonders.1378:

Removing energy weapon costs is a slight buff? Lol
And no one is scared. Just think of a not lazy solution to your problem. This solution is on par with people asking for ranger pet to be removed because they don’t like it.

Hate to point it out to you, but in the next expansion’s elite specializations, Anet is in fact allowing ranger pets to be removed from play by being inside them in spirit…so there goes your analogy…

I never liked rev, and have barely played in the last 2 years. I’m pretty sure I would have liked it a lot more and played it much more if the skills didn’t have an energy cost AND a cooldown.

There must be something changed about the revenant energy system. I never understood why we had energy costs on weapons and utility skills. Having it on both is simply too much strain for one resource. Think about thief, they have initiative on the weapon skills only. Now imagine if the utility skill would have initiative costs too, that would mage managing initiative more or less impossible. But for revenant this is OK, right?

My suggestion is rather radical: Remove the energy gain on legend swap as balance for reduces energy cost overall.

Reasons for this: The developers themselves said, that they don’t like any kind of system that would give energy because it would be a must include without any other choice. But for the class mechanic such a system is magically OK then? This is as we all know the reason why legend swap on cooldown is mandatory, if you want to or not. You have to get back to 50 energy, otherwise you can’t even use your weapon skills or anything at all beside auto attack. Without the energy gain on legend swap it would at least feel like energy management, because as it is now the regeneration of energy simply means nothing.

The removal of energy gain on legend swap would be balanced with reduced energy cost on primary weapon skills and in some cases utility skills. With that in mind you could at least use your weapon to wait and build up energy for your utility skills. And if you had more than 50 energy you could swap without losing the extra energy.

Mithos.9023:

There must be something changed about the revenant energy system. I never understood why we had energy costs on weapons and utility skills. Having it on both is simply too much strain for one resource. Think about thief, they have initiative on the weapon skills only. Now imagine if the utility skill would have initiative costs too, that would mage managing initiative more or less impossible. But for revenant this is OK, right?

My suggestion is rather radical: Remove the energy gain on legend swap as balance for reduces energy cost overall.

Reasons for this: The developers themselves said, that they don’t like any kind of system that would give energy because it would be a must include without any other choice. But for the class mechanic such a system is magically OK then? This is as we all know the reason why legend swap on cooldown is mandatory, if you want to or not. You have to get back to 50 energy, otherwise you can’t even use your weapon skills or anything at all beside auto attack. Without the energy gain on legend swap it would at least feel like energy management, because as it is now the regeneration of energy simply means nothing.

The removal of energy gain on legend swap would be balanced with reduced energy cost on primary weapon skills and in some cases utility skills. With that in mind you could at least use your weapon to wait and build up energy for your utility skills. And if you had more than 50 energy you could swap without losing the extra energy.

I actually think removing the energy gain from swapping is a fantastic idea, and would easily balance out removing energy costs to weapons. This so far is the best solution I’ve seen in the thread thus far.

@Eversor I’d like to politely ask you to either leave the thread, or actually be constructive. I don’t mind people offer up differing opinions. But you haven’t really added anything to the discussion other than being elitist.

Eversor.5186:

guys…stop playing rev and reroll

Highly useful insights. So master experienced Rev who thinks enegy system is great as is, please explain to us why Jalis and Ventari are obsolete in sPvP. Please give us your useful insights of why overall Renegade is perceived negatively.

If you do not know please do not pollute the forms with kitten posts like these.

Fractured.3928:

Mithos.9023:

There must be something changed about the revenant energy system. I never understood why we had energy costs on weapons and utility skills. Having it on both is simply too much strain for one resource. Think about thief, they have initiative on the weapon skills only. Now imagine if the utility skill would have initiative costs too, that would mage managing initiative more or less impossible. But for revenant this is OK, right?

My suggestion is rather radical: Remove the energy gain on legend swap as balance for reduces energy cost overall.

Reasons for this: The developers themselves said, that they don’t like any kind of system that would give energy because it would be a must include without any other choice. But for the class mechanic such a system is magically OK then? This is as we all know the reason why legend swap on cooldown is mandatory, if you want to or not. You have to get back to 50 energy, otherwise you can’t even use your weapon skills or anything at all beside auto attack. Without the energy gain on legend swap it would at least feel like energy management, because as it is now the regeneration of energy simply means nothing.

The removal of energy gain on legend swap would be balanced with reduced energy cost on primary weapon skills and in some cases utility skills. With that in mind you could at least use your weapon to wait and build up energy for your utility skills. And if you had more than 50 energy you could swap without losing the extra energy.

I actually think removing the energy gain from swapping is a fantastic idea, and would easily balance out removing energy costs to weapons. This so far is the best solution I’ve seen in the thread thus far.

.

losing the swap nrg will demand an overall nrg buffing to our skills and utilities.
a more easy ways to do so are :

letting us keep 100% nrg out of fight (like thief starts with 100% initiatives)
rebuild nrg with minor traits for each trait line
salavation when you get regen
retribution when you get stability
invocation when you get fury
corruption when you get resistance
devastation when you leach life

I have only seriously played my rev for a few months but I have a different opinion all together from what you are all arguing about. I think it’s OK to have energy cost and cool downs on all weapons and skills, BUT I think that there should be no cast times on the utilities, especially where renegade is concerned. The Heal being a stun-break would be acceptable if it was instant cast, and I feel the same about all the new utilities. If they were all instant cast like many of the thief utilities then there would be a lot of DPS and QoL to be gained in both PvE and PvP.

I do feel the desire to stay in a single legend sometimes for certain things and the solution to that is to only activate energy draining abilities if you don’t mind switching legends constantly. Yes that means a dps hit but it does work and in the situations where you feel the need to do that energy management is not a terrible issue, and a lot more diversity of utility and F skills opens up. It’s nice for open world and WvW situations where there are a LOT of mobs and it might be appropriate to camp in Jallis for a while and only switch to mallyx or shiro to clean up.

At any rate my #1 biggest disappointment with the class so far and the demo weekend in general was the fact that the +25% bleeding duration wasn’t working at all and the crit buff situation was also kitten by bugs tremendously. So it was hard to tell where the new weapon stood. Beyond that SB3 is just bad right now. I think it would be a lot cooler if the projectiles reliably fired regardless of terrain and weren’t useless in tight spaces. And last but not least the fact that there is ZERO synergy with either chill or self application of conditions, making the Mallyx line far less sexy from the short-bow perspective. If I were Anet I would have made SB3 put a different type of condi on each arrow and that way if they all hit there would be excellent coverage on the target making cleansing the bleeds and fire harder.

Snowywonders.1378:

Zenith.7301:

Snowywonders.1378:

No. This would make rev roo similar to orher classes. Taking away energy requirements of weapons would mean increasing recharge time of utilities and weapons too. Rev is about managing energy and, not spamming every skill on CD. This is a terrible change that I see suggested too often.

What the hell are you talking about? Revenant weapon skills on average already have longer cd’s than warriors and guardians and they don’t pay any energy for them.

Warrior shield 5, 25 sec CD. Rev staff 3, half the CD and damages and blinds too.

Warrior hammer 5, 25 sec cd and only hits 1 target. Rev staff 5, 20 sec CD except it evades and hits 3 targets.

I’m sure you can find more

Warrior greatsword 2, half the cd of unrelenting assault. Warrior greatsword 3, lower cd than surge of the mists. Warrior mainhand sword 2 and 3, lower mobility cd than any rev cd on weapons.

Staff also does no damage outside landing a surge of the mists since the autoattack is garbage, unlike a warrior with axe shield.

Warrior shield also stuns and if you pair it with mace, you got stuns, reflect, and an extra block on top. On lower cd’s.

Warrior elite F ability, half the cd of Herald.

Virtually most of the warrior weapons do far more DPS than herald with lower cd’s.

Lonami.2987:

Just remove energy altogether. It’s pointless resource management with no reward whatsoever. That, or remove all cooldowns, though that’s harder to balance for obvious reasons.

At the end of the day, revenant needs a redesign, because it has problems everywhere. Some ideas here.

If they remove energy management, all Mallyx’s skill will recieve a huge cd boost making them essentially useless. (They’re used for resistance and boon removal anyway)

They’d also have to redesign Jallyx hammer and Glint’s boon pulsing.
All of them will receive a huge CD if that’s the case.

Shiro need a redesign too with massive CD on key utilities as well.

Be careful of what you wish for.

Zenith.7301:

Warrior greatsword 2, half the cd of unrelenting assault. Warrior greatsword 3, lower cd than surge of the mists. Warrior mainhand sword 2 and 3, lower mobility cd than any rev cd on weapons.

Staff also does no damage outside landing a surge of the mists since the autoattack is garbage, unlike a warrior with axe shield.

Warrior shield also stuns and if you pair it with mace, you got stuns, reflect, and an extra block on top. On lower cd’s.

Warrior elite F ability, half the cd of Herald.

Virtually most of the warrior weapons do far more DPS than herald with lower cd’s.

Are you being serious or are you intentionally making comparisons between weapon skills and profession mechanics which have different properties and uses to show how ridiculous you think Snowywonder’s comparisons were? There’s more so these skills, and the builds which use them, than just dps, movement, and cds.

Out of all current meta rotations, condi rev is the worst and most boring. And they only reason why, are the energy costs of the weapon skills.
We have so many cool and strong utilitys, but the only 2 we use are mallyx elite and vengful hammers…..because we have to spend all energy for our weapon skills.

There’s some interesting facts about the Revenant energy system:

• Swapping legend doesn’t add 50 energy units, only resets the number to 50, so if you had over that amount, you lose energy…

• …Which doesn’t matter too much, because outside PvE you almost never go beyond 50-60% of energy: the system rises slowly as a snail past 50 and as happens with the Warrior’s adrenaline system you lose all the “excess” over 50 units in like 2 seconds inmediatly after leaving combat.

• The only way to stack energy is… to only use auto attacks. Because everything you have as Revenant (weapon skills, heals, utilities, elites, even the F keys mechanics… ) drains energy, and you lack any extra source of energy “generation” outside legend swapping to reset to 50.

Renegade will push this even further turning Revenant’s classic “autoattack rotation mode” into “autoattack stationary mode” to preserve the static buffs from fervor. Which of course only works towards PvE content.

Arkaile.5604:

Zenith.7301:

Warrior greatsword 2, half the cd of unrelenting assault. Warrior greatsword 3, lower cd than surge of the mists. Warrior mainhand sword 2 and 3, lower mobility cd than any rev cd on weapons.

Staff also does no damage outside landing a surge of the mists since the autoattack is garbage, unlike a warrior with axe shield.

Warrior shield also stuns and if you pair it with mace, you got stuns, reflect, and an extra block on top. On lower cd’s.

Warrior elite F ability, half the cd of Herald.

Virtually most of the warrior weapons do far more DPS than herald with lower cd’s.

Are you being serious or are you intentionally making comparisons between weapon skills and profession mechanics which have different properties and uses to show how ridiculous you think Snowywonder’s comparisons were? There’s more so these skills, and the builds which use them, than just dps, movement, and cds.

No, there isn’t. In the end, it’s about output in PvE. You don’t have the output, it doesn’t matter what gimmick extra you have.

Well for those against this, doesn’t appear the devs are active with the class community….at all….which is kinda depressing. Even WoW has dev posts during testing phases for the classes.

Fractured.3928:

Well for those against this, doesn’t appear the devs are active with the class community….at all….which is kinda depressing. Even WoW has dev posts during testing phases for the classes.

ANet lacks any comunication in relation with balance and skills, specially after the HoT release. The more close thing to that is the brief excerpts they write with each balance patch (4 times a year), which isn’t really a “conversation” but a one sided message.

You will NEVER see a Point of Interest or a developer in a interview in which they board and address any specific problem with a skill or unbalances between classes. In the PoF presentation they did 0 effort to try to explain what role each spec is supposed to do in each game mode (probably because a lot of them are useless in 1, 3 or all of them).

I guess that is what happens in most of games, not every game is like Tekken in which Harada is both the producer, the main programmer and at the same one of the best competitive players in the game.

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Just posting to say I highly disagree with this idea. The class is fine as it is right now. It’s useful in every. single. game mode. at the moment even if it’s not used for most speedclears.

The profession plays fine and energy management as it is now is fine. It requires a patient and precise playstyle that takes a lot to master and that is totally fine. If rev doesn’t work for you guys mechanically, find a class that does.

As a rev main I don’t want the class to become overpowered again and then suffer another 2 years of nerfs. It’s already top tier in pvp and wvw when played expertly and that caused a lot of heartache for pve revs. Removing energy costs on weapon skills will cause way more issues than it will solve. And same with adding a way to get more energy.

To quote a great man: you’re not thinking fourth dimensionally.

PoF specs will completely outclass and counter Revenant in every game mode and Renegade is not enough to make up for that.

Maybe Revenant as it was before 2 years of nerf would have been decent in PoF too.

I think the best option would be to start with 100% energy instead of 50% energy, as I stated on another thread, mainly because it would give more option when engaging and legend swapping, it’d also need some slight increase in energy cost for some skills in order to balance the change.

It’d greatly enhance the gameplay of some of the legends, for instance the current rotation for Shiro is to use Impossible Odds and then let your character auto-attack for few seconds until you can legend swap, it’s far from being compelling, but if you’d start with 100% energy you might want to use Phase Traversal to boost your next attack damage, and Grasping Shadow to have a small damage burst, because you’d have more energy so more freedom to create combos; one could argue that with 100% energy Shiro would still use Impossible Odds then auto-attack, but if you do so your legend swap would recharge before your energy reaches 0%, so you’d want to use all of your energy before legend swap and you’d want to legend swap as often as possible, therefore using Phase Traversal + Grasping Shadow wouldn’t be a bad idea.

Nevertheless having 100% from the beginning would also unbalance some legends, for instance Mallyx is already quite a strong legend for condition damage, so Mace skills would need to have an increased energy cost, it obviously needs testing, but Searing Fissure and Echoing Eruption should go from 5 energy to 8 energy, and Banish Enchantment from 20 energy to 30 energy, there are also plenty of skills which would need to have a slight increase energy cost, I’m not going to do them all because without testing it’s hard to give good numbers.

Always starting a fight with 100% energy cost would also make some traits such as Charged Mists more relevant, as you’d more often go above 50% energy which means the trait would trigger more time, and traits such as Equilibrium might actually trigger the above threshold effect which means you’ll need to be aware of your energy in order to trigger the damage or the heal, right now as you’re more often below 50% you always get the heal. Moreover I think Charged Mist should also have a second passive, because selfish might is not something the Revenant direly needs, particularly if you play with Glint, so when you weapon swap you’d gain 15% energy back + might when dropping below the 50% energy threshold, it’d make the grandmaster traits harder to choose for dps/condition builds as Roiling Mists gives you increase critical chance when under fury and Charged Mists gives you might sustain and more flexibility.

Kidel.2057:

PoF specs will completely outclass and counter Revenant in every game mode and Renegade is not enough to make up for that.

This is an statement I can’t agree with. Albeit Rev/Herald is is weak in some game modes most of PoF specs are also weaker than their HoT counterparts, and some even worse than the core classes.

In example: the Deadeye, which is regarded as one of the strongest specs of PoF (and has some of the most interesting mechanic changes compared to Thief and DD) is way easier to deal with as a power Rev than condi DD and permastealth builds. The same happens with the Mirage and the Soulbeast.

Kidel.2057:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Just posting to say I highly disagree with this idea. The class is fine as it is right now. It’s useful in every. single. game mode. at the moment even if it’s not used for most speedclears.

The profession plays fine and energy management as it is now is fine. It requires a patient and precise playstyle that takes a lot to master and that is totally fine. If rev doesn’t work for you guys mechanically, find a class that does.

As a rev main I don’t want the class to become overpowered again and then suffer another 2 years of nerfs. It’s already top tier in pvp and wvw when played expertly and that caused a lot of heartache for pve revs. Removing energy costs on weapon skills will cause way more issues than it will solve. And same with adding a way to get more energy.

To quote a great man: you’re not thinking fourth dimensionally.

PoF specs will completely outclass and counter Revenant in every game mode and Renegade is not enough to make up for that.

Maybe Revenant as it was before 2 years of nerf would have been decent in PoF too.

Considering I was clowning all the new specs besides Scourge with Renegade during the beta weekend, even against top tier players, makes me think you’re wrong about this…perhaps you need to git gud?

And considering you can’t see how Renegade will be fantastic in pve makes me wonder how much time you’ve actually spent theorycrafting with the class.

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Considering I was clowning all the new specs besides Scourge with Renegade during the beta weekend, even against top tier players, makes me think you’re wrong about this…perhaps you need to git gud?

And considering you can’t see how Renegade will be fantastic in pve makes me wonder how much time you’ve actually spent theorycrafting with the class.

When other classes can AOE their utilities or heals on the run and they’ve made Renegade utility skills to be high energy cost ground-targeted static fields where the summoned spirit can be killed/feared, even the heal and the elite skill, then yes, I would predict Renegade will have a harder time being useful, especially in PvP and WvW situations, compared to other classes/elites.

Snowywonders.1378:

No. This would make rev roo similar to orher classes. Taking away energy requirements of weapons would mean increasing recharge time of utilities and weapons too. Rev is about managing energy and, not spamming every skill on CD. This is a terrible change that I see suggested too often.

willing to trade off being too similar to other classes, for a chance to have more fun rotation and more access to my skills when I need them.

One of core issues for me even before PoF new elite, has been energy. Energy in it’s current form seems like a punishment. With the addition of 3 new high energy intensive abilities with no form of additional gain to me just feels like hurting on hurting.

Rev has cd’s and slow energy regain (ouch if not swapping legends constantly regardless of what’s currently appropriate). Glint helped with energy, but hey now we’re onto what seems to be the most costly legend of all with no compensation in the form of higher energy regen.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………..
My suggestion would be first get rid of legend swap for half energy. It’s just counter intuitive (swapping legends when inappropriate just to fire off a few more abilities). Next I’m not sure if I’d take away weapon costs, or do a rework such as starting up on each legend at 100 energy, energy outta combat moving to 100 (only descent for short fights), or 50 and higher regen per sec, but something needs to change.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………

Whole Idea of rev was to challenge to spend energy correctly, but in its current form many never fire off anything but “the very best”, at any second . Gives a feeling of burden, not challenge. Game play needs to at least feel fun , and not burdensome, if you want excitement in the profession.

renegade nrg must be changed.
the ability of AI to die so fast like a clones while mostly they do no dmg rather buff you allies around them should act like ritualist spirits from gw1. higher hp pool and the ability to heal them per skill use.
if so reduce their nrg: heal should be 5, other skills 20, 25, 20.
also give a trait which with every skill used you heal your AI by 15% of their hp.

if not the nrg must be much lower like 5 on the heal skill, 15, 20,15 nrg per skill.

you can change f2-f4 to support more with nrg gain (not alacrity), more boons or hp to your AI and condi cleanse. like
Heroic Command – gain one boon by this order for 5 sec (might, protection, fury, regen, resistance, vigor, stability, retaliation, aegis) and remove 1 condition for every stack of kalla fervor . with 5 stack or 10 stack is can be great. 20 sec cd is fine and 20 nrg is fine.

Citadel Bombardment – hardly will used. its 40 nrg and low dmg hit and output. increase stacks of burning to 3 and put direct dmg also. reduce nrg to 25. icd 20.

Orders from Above – . alacrity even with 6 sec means 2 sec cd. the cost of it and icd not worth it. so to renew my abilities it can reduce cd like with alacrity, renew my hp like with regen, renew my endurance like with vigor or 25% endurance back or renew my nrg.
so reduce nrg to ZERO .renew your nrg by 50% and allies gain alacrity vigor and regen for 8 sec. cd 60 sec. this will used like mesmer F4 bail out. you gain nrg to use some defense skill or to finish with attacking skills faster. it refresh your skills, endurance and hp. 60 sec is long enough

more nrg managment ideas:
give each trait line a minor trait which rebuild nrg (like astral force)
salvation – Serene Rejuvenation – when allies gain alacrity from your skills you gain back 3% nrg for each ally effected. OR Disarming Riposte – when you strike a foe gain 0.5% nrg.
retribution – Determined Resolution – while having stability you gain back 0.5% nrg
invocation -Ferocious Aggression – while having fury you gain back 0.5% nrg
corruption – Opportune Extraction – when enemies hit by above 4 stacks of torment you gain back 0.5% nrg
devastation – Focused Siphoning – when you leach life from enemies you gain back 0.5% nrg

so basically you can build yourself with 1% nrg gain during fight
the rate of energy regeneration is 5% so increase it by 20%. so instead for 20 sec from 0-100% it will take 16.6 sec. but you will need to use skills

Aomine.5012:

Lonami.2987:

Just remove energy altogether. It’s pointless resource management with no reward whatsoever. That, or remove all cooldowns, though that’s harder to balance for obvious reasons.

At the end of the day, revenant needs a redesign, because it has problems everywhere. Some ideas here.

If they remove energy management, all Mallyx’s skill will recieve a huge cd boost making them essentially useless. (They’re used for resistance and boon removal anyway)

They’d also have to redesign Jallyx hammer and Glint’s boon pulsing.
All of them will receive a huge CD if that’s the case.

Shiro need a redesign too with massive CD on key utilities as well.

Be careful of what you wish for.

That might be good for some skills. Majority of Jalis skills are never used in any game mode. Removing or lowering energy, while putting CD, will make these skills useful.

Snowywonders.1378:

No. This would make rev roo similar to orher classes. Taking away energy requirements of weapons would mean increasing recharge time of utilities and weapons too. Rev is about managing energy and, not spamming every skill on CD. This is a terrible change that I see suggested too often.

Um, idk if you noticed but most of the time we’re stuck auto attacking due to utilities AND weapon skills costing energy. Even if you manage your energy well you still cant make much use of your abilities. You kitten your self if you dont use your weapon/utilities and when you do use them you kitten your self due to energy costs on everything. It’s a lose/lose.

Rev will never be same as any other class even if you take off energy costs on weapon skills. We got forced utilities that we have no choice over once you pick your 2 legends. You got a wonky half finished class that doesnt know its own identity. Rev is super sloppy and has been since release due to the way energy works.

I keep seeing people say “it wouldn’t be unique”. Besides the fact, who even cares about unique when it’s nearly unplayable, it would be the exact opposite of a Thief.

Thief = Weapon skills cost energy, Supplementary skills don’t
Rev = Supplementary skills cost energy, Weapon skills don’t

Could you immagine how much kittening there would be on the forums if Thief weapon skills AND supplementary skills cost energy? Well that’s what playing a Rev is like.

Until they fix this class I’ve literally hung it up.

Snowywonders.1378:

Rev is about managing energy

Except that there’s no way to manage it. You can… auto attack… or swap. Very engaging gameplay…

Captain Obvious.6951:

I keep seeing people say “it wouldn’t be unique”. Besides the fact, who even cares about unique when it’s nearly unplayable, it would be the exact opposite of a Thief.

Thief = Weapon skills cost energy, Supplementary skills don’t
Rev = Supplementary skills cost energy, Weapon skills don’t

Could you immagine how much kittening there would be on the forums if Thief weapon skills AND supplementary skills cost energy? Well that’s what playing a Rev is like.

Until they fix this class I’ve literally hung it up.

Could you immagine how much kittening there would be on the forums if Thief weapon skills AND supplementary skills cost energy? Well that’s what playing a Rev is like.
Until they fix this class I’ve literally hung it up. that line right there is so true.. people don’t even realize. BUFF IS NEEDED ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE is some other profession player trying to jerk rev off the map of tyria

aimz.6287:

Captain Obvious.6951:

I keep seeing people say “it wouldn’t be unique”. Besides the fact, who even cares about unique when it’s nearly unplayable, it would be the exact opposite of a Thief.

Thief = Weapon skills cost energy, Supplementary skills don’t
Rev = Supplementary skills cost energy, Weapon skills don’t

Could you immagine how much kittening there would be on the forums if Thief weapon skills AND supplementary skills cost energy? Well that’s what playing a Rev is like.

Until they fix this class I’ve literally hung it up.

Could you immagine how much kittening there would be on the forums if Thief weapon skills AND supplementary skills cost energy? Well that’s what playing a Rev is like.
Until they fix this class I’ve literally hung it up. that line right there is so true.. people don’t even realize. BUFF IS NEEDED ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE is some other profession player trying to jerk rev off the map of tyria

No, people who are critical of this are not “other professions” necessarily. I’ve put 2000+ hours into rev and I main it in all game modes. People like myself who don’t want weapon energy to be removed don’t want the absolute kittenstorm of balance changes that would have to happen for that to work well.

I don’t want to spend 60+ energy on Jade Winds because all the utilities would need increases in their current costs to compensate for the removal of energy on weapon skills. 45+ energy riposting shadows, 10+ energy heals, 40+ energy Unyielding Anguish. 34 utility skills and 31 weapon skills would have to potentially be adjusted for this change to happen. That is truly massive compared to most of Anets balance patches. No thank you.

In pvp/wvw Revs need to learn to kite more and make careful skill selections to make the most of their energy (same with thief and initiative).

In Pve revs need to understand and accept that if they’re not spamming their energy they’re losing damage (same with thief and initiative).

The devs have stated before that they intend the “legend swap” mechanic to be the main means of energy management. They intentionally balance the class around the ability to constantly get 50 energy every 10 seconds if we need it and they want us to us do this to make the most of the class.

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

In pvp/wvw Revs need to learn to kite more and make careful skill selections to make the most of their energy (same with thief and initiative).

In Pve revs need to understand and accept that if they’re not spamming their energy they’re losing damage (same with thief and initiative).

Thief has plenty of utilities with the proper traits selected that instantly gain back initiative to keep dishing out damage…what does Rev have besides weapon swap to regain energy, other than time itself? Also, none of the thief’s utilities or F-skills cost initiative, just weapon skills minus the auto-attack, so there are only 4 slots at any time that actually cost initiative. The same no-initiative-cost utilities also allow the thief to get out of harm’s way if they do need to reset their initiative bar, where Rev has no significant distance-producing skills and the few leaps they do have cost energy.

Sylvyn.4750:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

In pvp/wvw Revs need to learn to kite more and make careful skill selections to make the most of their energy (same with thief and initiative).

In Pve revs need to understand and accept that if they’re not spamming their energy they’re losing damage (same with thief and initiative).

Thief has plenty of utilities with the proper traits selected that instantly gain back initiative to keep dishing out damage…what does Rev have besides weapon swap to regain energy, other than time itself? Also, none of the thief’s utilities or F-skills cost initiative, just weapon skills minus the auto-attack, so there are only 4 slots at any time that actually cost initiative. The same no-initiative-cost utilities also allow the thief to get out of harm’s way if they do need to reset their initiative bar, where Rev has no significant distance-producing skills and the few leaps they do have cost energy.

You forgot to mention that in the situation where rev did actually get away and go ooc, if he was above 50 energy he will instantly loose all that saved up energy even if it was only ooc for 1/2 a second.

Kronos.2560:

Sylvyn.4750:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

In pvp/wvw Revs need to learn to kite more and make careful skill selections to make the most of their energy (same with thief and initiative).

In Pve revs need to understand and accept that if they’re not spamming their energy they’re losing damage (same with thief and initiative).

Thief has plenty of utilities with the proper traits selected that instantly gain back initiative to keep dishing out damage…what does Rev have besides weapon swap to regain energy, other than time itself? Also, none of the thief’s utilities or F-skills cost initiative, just weapon skills minus the auto-attack, so there are only 4 slots at any time that actually cost initiative. The same no-initiative-cost utilities also allow the thief to get out of harm’s way if they do need to reset their initiative bar, where Rev has no significant distance-producing skills and the few leaps they do have cost energy.

You forgot to mention that in the situation where rev did actually get away and go ooc, if he was above 50 energy he will instantly loose all that saved up energy even if it was only ooc for 1/2 a second.

Very true…thanks!

Kronos.2560:

Sylvyn.4750:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

In pvp/wvw Revs need to learn to kite more and make careful skill selections to make the most of their energy (same with thief and initiative).

In Pve revs need to understand and accept that if they’re not spamming their energy they’re losing damage (same with thief and initiative).

Thief has plenty of utilities with the proper traits selected that instantly gain back initiative to keep dishing out damage…what does Rev have besides weapon swap to regain energy, other than time itself? Also, none of the thief’s utilities or F-skills cost initiative, just weapon skills minus the auto-attack, so there are only 4 slots at any time that actually cost initiative. The same no-initiative-cost utilities also allow the thief to get out of harm’s way if they do need to reset their initiative bar, where Rev has no significant distance-producing skills and the few leaps they do have cost energy.

You forgot to mention that in the situation where rev did actually get away and go ooc, if he was above 50 energy he will instantly loose all that saved up energy even if it was only ooc for 1/2 a second.

Or that we start fight with 50% and all energy above 50% is wasted on swap anyway.

LoreChief.8391:

I think it is unreasonable to attach energy costs to weaponskills, and it gets even more ridiculous when you see the evolution of elite specs. With Renegade, we now have 3 additional F actions that also eat energy up.

Seeing as how each legend is designed for a different purpose, it does not make sense to say “well just switch legends and get more energy” – because then you have to shift purpose.

Using Shiro as an example; do other classes sacrifice all of their skill usage to get a few seconds of Quickness? Because with Shiro, thats what you get. Auto attacks with quickness at the cost of everything else.

Do other classes have to choose between using an elite skill and their entire other rotation? Because thats what you get with Rev.

And it’s not like we’re given any options in the trait lines either. There’s nothing to decrease energy expenditure or increase energy gain. Hell, we don’t even get to start off combat with a full energy bar even!

And the thing so many people are missing, is that as a Rev you’ve already “made a sacrifice” for the sake of the effective power you get. We don’t get to choose our skills. They are pre-selected based on the legendary you channel. The price has already been paid – and we’re being short-changed.

So what are my ideas to improve this then?

1. The #1 skill now generates energy per hit. With Shiro this should be just enough to maintain the Quickness effect – to give you an example of how much energy you should get (because trying to use Quickness indefinitely with anything else is OP).
2. Add/modify traits that result in energy gain. “When you kill an enemy, generate 30% energy”, “Energy now caps at 150% and regens to 100% out of combat”, “Switching stances increases energy generation from basic attacks by 100% for 5 seconds”
3. Skills that constantly drain energy no longer have an activation energy cost.

Quoted for visibility. I try to like the revenant but having to constantly auto-attack just because I used some utility skills and now I’m out of energy is so spectacularly boring.

Also, having to keep swapping legends shouldn’t be mandatory when they each bring different things to combat situations. It’s just micro-management for the sake of posing as a class mechanic. It’s like the designers don’t play their own game or we really have different definitions for fun and engaging combat.