Guild Wars 2

Many people are saying “it’s unusable in PvP and WvW, it’s a PvE spec”.

Let me get this straight: it’s terrible in PvE too.

- It basically has 0 use in exploration with no condi cleanse or mobility options. Even the stun break on heal is terrible.
- Phantasm-Wells can be destroyed or CC’d in PvE too. It’s not like they are immune from it in PvE.
- Renegade’s Condi DPS is ludicrous compared to what Holosmith, Firebrand, Weaver and Soulbeast can offer. Nobody, NOBODY would even look for a condi Revenant with those 4 monsters existing in the game.
- Energy cost is still crap.
- Shortbow is shorter range compared to Hammer and has no defensive options to compensate for it, while Hammer has a barrier for projectiles and life siphon.

I don’t see how people could even prefer Renegade to Herald in PvE, even after 2 years of nerfs on the Herald. And I’m talking for Fractal/Raid and exploration.

The one positive thing about the spirits is they’ll drag aggro and let you just rain hell down on enemies.

Can’t speak for raids, but I do know that group DPS buffs have high value there, and the Renegade has arguably the strongest group DPS buff in the game. Might see some use there. However for fractals and exploration I can see the following advantages afforded by the new spec:

• The Renegade gives revenants a suite of ranged attacks it was otherwise lacking. I probably won’t use the shortbow much, but I can see the value in having Citadel Bombardment, Icerazor and Darkrazor available so that I don’t have to close with foes that are too dangerous to touch. All of these effects are AoEs effective at locking down and destroying trash mobs at range.
• The buffs provided by the Renegade are at least as good and less likely to be redundant than the Herald’s. Soulcleave’s Summit and Razorclaw’s Rage look powerful enough to define the meta for top-tier fractal groups who want to clear content as quickly as possible. On top of that the spec can provide instant-cast alacrity when it’s needed most and (in current balancing) permanent protection to the entire group, as well as splashes of regeneration, retaliation and might.
• The renegade also provides massive buffs to personal DPS. It’s trivial to maintain maximum stacks of Kalla’s Fervour, and your grandmasters give you a choice between an easy 25 might stacks or an increased Fervour cap. Brutal Momentum also gives a neat +33% crit chance.
• And lastly, the Renegade provides a second group healing legend for Ventari users. Although Breakrazor is a terrible personal heal it actually has great scaling for group healing, with condition protection added on top. Soulcleave also has great healing scaling, and provides a way for ventari builds that have dumped attack power completely to still provide very respectable DPS.

The above is why I’d prefer to use the Renegade over the Herald in PvE for exploration and fractals. And remember: you don’t have to use the complete package of shortbow+Kalla+traits in a single build. You can just cherry pick what complements the existing class elements that you want to use.

People say it will be good in pve for basically two reasons. First is the condi damage modifier from Kalla’s Fervor. Traited it will get a 20% modifier on all out going condition damage which given that current Condi Rev already does 32k dps, it will be a sizable increase in a raid settings.

Secondly, its bleed and life steal spirits bring much to the dps table. The life steal spirit has no ICD and triggers per hit. Give that effect to 5 buffed people with quickness and alacrity and you have increased the raids overall dps by a nontrivial amount. The bleed spirit works similarly in that it will cause you to get a stack of bleeds of per person, per seconds, while it is up. Since it lasts 10 seconds, if your squad attacks 1 per second then you will have put 50 bleed stacks on a boss in a raid settings. Both spirits are an increase over the jalis hammers which is the second legend a condi rev takes in an organized group setting.

As far as the spirits go, all other summons in the game currently get 90% reduction to damage taken in pve so they arn’t rendered uselesss by boss aoe damage.

Currently there’s a Condi build of Viper gear with Corruption/Devastation/Invocation with Mallyx/Jallis.

Kalla’s Trait Line allowing us to create 10%-20% additional condition damage and 300 Ferocity will likely be a straight upgrade to either Invocation or Herald even if you’re using Mace/Axe. Even then since most of our game play revolves around Mallyx Elite, swap, Jalis Hammers the bleed from a Geomancy sigil will likely benefit from the bleed based traits in there as well.

Kalla’s Legend is very questionable, but the ability to have 5 players trigger Bleeds for 10 seconds / 15 seconds (which take your condition stats) then immediately go into her Elite (which will proc Diabolic Inferno for more Burn) which will potentially add tremendous amounts of damage currently means that they could also be damage adds over Jalis with Hammers. The biggest issue with testing is that since these wells only benefit at maximum with 5 players utilizing them it’s hard to test even with a test dummy scenario.

Shortbow’s ability to pierce and bleed basically is going to match every other piercing, bleeding weapon for open world farm before it. Pistol Engineer comes to mind with their piercing. Big clumps of spawns can easily be farmed with the relative safety of range again benefiting a Condition focused player since Hammer already provided the same function for a Power focused player.

So, again, yes it is very PvE focused and PvE oriented for a Condition focused character.

ScottBroChill.3254:

The one positive thing about the spirits is they’ll drag aggro and let you just rain hell down on enemies.

This won’t happen even during a Maguuma meta event. Mobs there are designed to still hit you among 50 players.

If you’re talking about 1v1 against a veteran, well that’s not the PvE content that a class should be designed for.

No need to even talk about fractals and raids.

Kodiak.3281:

Currently there’s a Condi build of Viper gear with Corruption/Devastation/Invocation with Mallyx/Jallis.

Kalla’s Trait Line allowing us to create 10%-20% additional condition damage and 300 Ferocity will likely be a straight upgrade to either Invocation or Herald even if you’re using Mace/Axe. Even then since most of our game play revolves around Mallyx Elite, swap, Jalis Hammers the bleed from a Geomancy sigil will likely benefit from the bleed based traits in there as well.

Kalla’s Legend is very questionable, but the ability to have 5 players trigger Bleeds for 10 seconds / 15 seconds (which take your condition stats) then immediately go into her Elite (which will proc Diabolic Inferno for more Burn) which will potentially add tremendous amounts of damage currently means that they could also be damage adds over Jalis with Hammers. The biggest issue with testing is that since these wells only benefit at maximum with 5 players utilizing them it’s hard to test even with a test dummy scenario.

Shortbow’s ability to pierce and bleed basically is going to match every other piercing, bleeding weapon for open world farm before it. Pistol Engineer comes to mind with their piercing. Big clumps of spawns can easily be farmed with the relative safety of range again benefiting a Condition focused player since Hammer already provided the same function for a Power focused player.

So, again, yes it is very PvE focused and PvE oriented for a Condition focused character.

If we don’t equip Kalla’s utility skills, but just the traits, it means that Renegade is flawed for PvE, as I’m saying.

If you just take Renegade for a couple of traits and maybe the shortbow, without using any of the skills, it just means that Renegade is bad for PvE. You’re admitting that those summons/wells are crap.

Also all the boons from Renegade traits don’t really affect Mallyx, that is based on Torment.

Kidel.2057:

If we don’t equip Kalla’s utility skills, but just the traits, it means that Renegade is flawed for PvE, as I’m saying.

If you just take Renegade for a couple of traits and maybe the shortbow, without using any of the skills, it just means that Renegade is bad for PvE. You’re admitting that those summons/wells are crap.

Also all the boons from Renegade traits don’t really affect Mallyx, that is based on Torment.

I already pointed out that the Legend’s wells could end up being more damage that Jalis’ hammers we just won’t know till we can do a proper DPS test with 5 people taking advantage of them as intended. So what you’re saying is wrong.

Furthermore, there’s lots of examples of using trait lines for benefits without using the relevant skills. In WvW we see a lot of Jalis/Mallyx despite running Herald trait line for example.

The only Boon that Renegade generates is Might and Fury both of which would help Mallyx with Condition Damage and Crit Chance (to proc Torment). Kalla’s Fervor, which is a seperate buff, also benefits Mallyx even with a Mace (tested) as it increases all Condition Damage by 10-20% (depending on GM trait) as well as adding an additional 150-300 Ferocity (on top of what we already get from Devastation Line).

You’re really reaching here man. I mean by all means criticize away at being not effective in PvP and WvW both of which are 100% legit complaints. Trying to make a case for it not being useful in PvE as the second half of the Condition build is bridge too far.

You will most likely just play the current Condi Rev with mace/axe and Kalla instead of Jalis, spawning the bleed spirit and using maybe the alacrity/Elite/heroic command as an extra.
Shortbow could be on swap, for times when you are forced out of melee for some time. Better than nothing.

To be fair, Renegade could just have the 20% modifier & nothing else and still be viable.

renegade is brawler type, like scraper, tons of aoe control, might stacking ability

gotta spec tanky for it

lighter.2708:

renegade is brawler type, like scraper, tons of aoe control, might stacking ability

gotta spec tanky for it

Good luck doing that when you’re still melted by conditions and CC.

Kodiak.3281:

cut

I see your point, but please understand that if your pve build basically only uses Renegade traits, avoiding weapon and skills, it means that traits are the only decent part of this spec for pve. Renegade as a whole is bad, and a bunch of traits are not on par with what other classes are getting

The eliteskill is fixed right now and provides 800 damage per used skill for up to 5 teammembers which alone is allready a major damage increase. The other Skills provide group bleeding buff, high damage a spellcastbreaker skill and a useable aoe heal.

The commands of Kalla are even better and there is even something to considder as the 2nd grandmaster provides 10% more condition damage but the first increases the artillerycommand to hit up to 15 times each time providing burn damage that is a major damage skill too. Also no one says you have to stick with the bow at all go for Condiweapons instead with Mace + Sword if you want defense or Mace + Axe for additional damage and fast movement.

And what else? well a 4 sec version of alacrity buff is not the strongest but at least useable too.

If you do not want to raid the bow main attack + trait for piercing arrows give it back the effect of the old engineer pistol + coated bullets which can hit up lots of times for major damage to bigger groups like you will find in the temple of grenth event.

Zanobi.1608:

People say it will be good in pve for basically two reasons. First is the condi damage modifier from Kalla’s Fervor. Traited it will get a 20% modifier on all out going condition damage which given that current Condi Rev already does 32k dps, it will be a sizable increase in a raid settings.

It’s not going to be a straight 20% x 32k increase though…

In order to take Renegade, you’re going to have to drop Invocation and lose the 7% direct/condi damage and that sweet 20% crit spike. (Still probably an increase, but I wouldn’t underestimate how much extra torment that 20% crit generates—especially in Jalis.) I guess you could lose Devastation, but that’s not likely since the group ferocity buff is another reason you’re probably even there in the first place.

Also, it may be sort of surprising, but a majority of that 32k is direct damage from the mace’s high weapon dmg skill coefficients and Jalis hammer strikes.

Although, I suppose bringing up Jalis is sort of a moot point since Renegade will probably replace Jalis as a stance. Razorclaw applies a realistic 35ish stacks of bleed, which probably is more damage output than hammers alone, not even counting the life steal and an opportunity to have the energy to sneak in orbital bombardment.

I dunno, but the OP is right… The damage renegade can do is nowhere near some of the other beast dps specs right now.

Kidel.2057:

I see your point, but please understand that if your pve build basically only uses Renegade traits, avoiding weapon and skills, it means that traits are the only decent part of this spec for pve. Renegade as a whole is bad, and a bunch of traits are not on par with what other classes are getting

But, again, we can’t say the Legend abilities are bad for PvE yet because we can’t properly test them in a PvE setting. Razorclaw’s Fury is terrible for a single target, but when you’re adding 5 bleeds a second from 5 people attacking for 10 seconds that adds up. Especially because it’s bleeding off the Revenant’s Expertise and Condition damage. Now tack on the Elite that adds X damage to every single attack that lands as well as life healed for the same 5 members as your energy drains and that’s not a bad mix to the point I’d wager it would out perform Jalis Hammers for a Condi Revenant. The Daze well also would work very well for break bars since it’s 6 applications of daze.

Shortbow adds a ranged condi weapon that we didn’t have before. No condition PvE player is going to “avoid” it. They’ll use the stronger Mace/Axe combo when they can and when they can’t they now have an option where without Short Bow they’d be sitting there useless.

So the entire basis of your argument that it’s “just the traits” doesn’t hold up. It’s the other half of the PvE Condition player kitten nal. I’m not sure if you’re just trying to complain to get things buffed up or something but you just don’t really have a basis for an argument.

Prior to this weekend what annoyed me most was that the renegade utilities all had cooldowns, except the elite. That’s not what this profession is supposed to be.

And of course, it’s yet another legend which can’t be used underwater. Meanwhile other profession’s elite specs again can be.

After getting my hands on it I’m even more disappointed.

Ok, Breakrazor, Razorclaw, Soulcleaver are for groups. Fine. Though they don’t seem to apply their buffs to either Darkrazor or Icerazor, unlike necromancers and their minions with vampiric presence.

Darkrazor. That’s a lot of disrupt so useful for champion breakbars. Possibly useful in PvE to drop into the middle of a bunch of mobs to start fights if you’re playing at range? Though you’ve only got so much energy and most of the time I’m guessing we’d be better off just unloading damage with that instead.

Icerazor’s damage is very underwhelming. I suppose its main thing is cripple?

The bow’s abilities all have shorter cooldowns and its damage output seemed far more impressive. I preferred bow + Malyx to mace + Malyx. But the renegade utilities completely failed to impress.

Summoning could have been really interesting too.

Honestly with Firebrand dealing more condi damage and WAY more buffs (like constant Aegis with a mantra, constant quickness, a lot of might and so on) and heals, I don’t see how Renegade would be ever picked for Raid and Fractals.

In PvE, I can see it improving the existing condi build by 10-15%. Currently the condi build is the strongest in PvE (also one of the strongest among all classes). Though it will basically be the same; mace/axe + mallyix while running energy in elite, then Kalla and run energy in elite

SB will not be used, neither will Kalla’s utilities, since they cost way too much energy.

You noticed that the Firebrand can give Retaliation, Stability, Aegis and Protection with 1 skill, right? Not to mention all the other OP ones with basically no CD because they’re mantras.

Kidel.2057:

You noticed that the Firebrand can give Retaliation, Stability, Aegis and Protection with 1 skill, right? Not to mention all the other OP ones with basically no CD because they’re mantras.

I played FB the most of all new elites, and the above is not correct. None of the mantras provide protection. Aegis is provided by the heal. Retaliation and stability by the elite.

Overall FB is better than renegade, but renegade does better damage. The problem with renegade in PvE is that it offers nothing new. You will still end-up using mace/axe playing using the same exact play style.

The tomes do it.

Kodiak.3281:

Kidel.2057:

I see your point, but please understand that if your pve build basically only uses Renegade traits, avoiding weapon and skills, it means that traits are the only decent part of this spec for pve. Renegade as a whole is bad, and a bunch of traits are not on par with what other classes are getting

But, again, we can’t say the Legend abilities are bad for PvE yet because we can’t properly test them in a PvE setting.

People said this when the renegade was revealed, a lot of " We havent even tested it yet you cant judge it based on the leaks" and come to find out, the renegade sucks.
Sometimes, its better to call a spade a spade instead of hoping it turns into a king later with testing.
If it is unviable, in the controlled environment that is the pvp testing grounds
Their is a very high possibility it’s going to straight up suck in other places.
Better to say whats wrong with it now then ’ waiting" for the official release and getting an elite spec no one will use.

Razorclaw’s Fury is terrible for a single target, but when you’re adding 5 bleeds a second from 5 people attacking for 10 seconds that adds up. Especially because it’s bleeding off the Revenant’s Expertise and Condition damage. Now tack on the Elite that adds X damage to every single attack that lands as well as life healed for the same 5 members as your energy drains and that’s not a bad mix to the point I’d wager it would out perform Jalis Hammers for a Condi Revenant. The Daze well also would work very well for break bars since it’s 6 applications of daze.

The issue with this is that it does nothing for the rev whose weapons focus on torment, and will lead to your other conditions falling off and basically pingponging and resetting. This too could be a dps loss because you have to rebuild stacks of what ever condition you had stacked up.
The legendary skill for Kalla also relies on teammates, and as your teammates either die or reposition themselves this may be totally lackluster.

Shortbow adds a ranged condi weapon that we didn’t have before. No condition PvE player is going to “avoid” it. They’ll use the stronger Mace/Axe combo when they can and when they can’t they now have an option where without Short Bow they’d be sitting there useless.

Most Raid bosses in the game dont ever require you to switch weapons. So the shortbow does in fact offer very little if not nothing to high end pve (raids)
Maybe it will do well in fractals?

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

Nah, they’ll invite Firebrand or Holosmith, since they just have way more condi dps and far more support and survivability. Or Elementalist, that’s still probably the best class if they nerf Holosmith as they should.

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

That may be true but if for an entire spec the ONLY thing worth using is the elite. I think you have a problem.

Kidel.2057:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

Nah, they’ll invite Firebrand or Holosmith, since they just have way more condi dps and far more support and survivability. Or Elementalist, that’s still probably the best class if they nerf Holosmith as they should.

That’s a player exclusivity issue. Anything 30k or higher is totally viable in pve raids. If people don’t realize that they’re kittenes. I’ve been playing power rev/condi rev in raids for the past year (i.e. after it fell out of meta). If some people don’t want you, kitten em, make your own groups or find people who do. That’s what I did. That’s what friends of mine who played Condi Thief before it became amazing did. Rev might not be used for most speedclears, but whatever, it’s totally capable at pulling good damage and can effectively clear the content. Renegade is a total upgrade for condi rev. Period.

Saying it won’t be “good for pve” is just pure ignorance or based on your own subjective opinion on what “good” is.

Has anyone forgotten here how core reve is able to output 30k condi damage now?
And renegade sure doesn’t look like a downgrade in terms of conditions.

And power builds are gonna get even sweeter – tons of extra ferocity and crit chance on renegade talk. Don’t like Kalla? Don’t take her. Don’t want shortbow? No one’s forcing you. The traitline alone is huge to push revenant far ahead in dps compared to what it was just recently.

Now will he be garbage or not compared to other classes – that remains to be seen. But lets remember that this beta prieview is far from balanced (hi holosmith damage) and there will most certainly be changes, if not to renegade himself then to others.

Kronos.2560:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

That may be true but if for an entire spec the ONLY thing worth using is the elite. I think you have a problem.

Due to rev’s energy mechanic it will never have all it’s utilities or skills be useful in all situations at all times. Thief has a lot of the same issue due to initiative. Rev however can be flexible, at the cost of its personal dps, and the other utilities do have some potential uses. I only stated the elite skill as an example because that + traits alone is enough to warrant it being totally fine in pve. Perhaps not speedclear, but fine neverless.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Has anyone forgotten here how core reve is able to output 30k condi damage now?
And renegade sure doesn’t look like a downgrade in terms of conditions.

And power builds are gonna get even sweeter – tons of extra ferocity and crit chance on renegade talk. Don’t like Kalla? Don’t take her. Don’t want shortbow? No one’s forcing you. The traitline alone is huge to push revenant far ahead in dps compared to what it was just recently.

Now will he be garbage or not compared to other classes – that remains to be seen. But lets remember that this beta prieview is far from balanced (hi holosmith damage) and there will most certainly be changes, if not to renegade himself then to others.

The main comparison for now is with Herald. Yes, Kalla is a buff to condi damage in PvE group setting. In every other shape or form Herald is much better, especially in PvP. In addition, Kalla has too many utilities that will end-up not being used due to functionality and energy cost. The new weapon is borderline useless.

Again, there are 8 other new elites specs, that we dunno where will they stand when the dust settles. We do know where the 9 HoT elites stand. I can assure you renegade cannot compete with them. Not even remotely. And its not just numbers adjustment. There are some major functionality problems with Kalla. Explain to me how will you fight a DH or Chrono with Kalla?

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Kidel.2057:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

Nah, they’ll invite Firebrand or Holosmith, since they just have way more condi dps and far more support and survivability. Or Elementalist, that’s still probably the best class if they nerf Holosmith as they should.

That’s a player exclusivity issue. Anything 30k or higher is totally viable in pve raids. If people don’t realize that they’re kittenes. I’ve been playing power rev/condi rev in raids for the past year (i.e. after it fell out of meta). If some people don’t want you, kitten em, make your own groups or find people who do. That’s what I did. That’s what friends of mine who played Condi Thief before it became amazing did. Rev might not be used for most speedclears, but whatever, it’s totally capable at pulling good damage and can effectively clear the content. Renegade is a total upgrade for condi rev. Period.

Saying it won’t be “good for pve” is just pure ignorance or based on your own subjective opinion on what “good” is.

For a total upgrade to condi revenant, you make use of less than half your traits in PvE: the first tier of traits are completely worthless if you don’t use a SB and we have no means of applying bleed from traits, the second tier is just as worthless if you don’t use SB or Kalla, and she only becomes usable for protection, which Glint can do better. The last tier is likely going to be Lasting Legacy to boost Kalla’s Fervor stacks.

You shouldn’t need the F2; Kalla’s Fervor is dumb easy to stack since in full Viper’s gear we’ll be overstacked on precision with Invocation and the might you give is less than Herald could have done much easier. F3 is the main energy dump so less time making use of your normal rotations. F4 is not worth trying to keep up with since it’s once again an energy dump and for only 4 seconds. No point in this when chrono exists, not even when traited, which also takes your Fervor stacks down.

What do you get from all this and what do you lose? (This is without Kalla and SB, because you say Renegade is a straight upgrade, not the weapon or the legend.)

We get Kalla’s Fervor, which is a good buff to both ferocity and condi damage, and some precision buffs from the trait line that cap us over 100% crit with Invocation.

We lose Assassin’s Presence, which is less ferocity than traited Kalla’s Fervor, but it’s a group buff. We lose Ferocious Strikes, which puts our ferocity over what Kalla’s Fervor would give when using the previously mentioned trait. We lose all of the Devastation minors, which all aid in damage, the first to a lesser extent when Vulnerability is capped, and we lose Swift Termination.

Or if we drop Invocation, we lose our stun break on legend swap, the 7% buff to both condi and power damage, might from fury gain, a condi cleanse or single attack buff, and Rolling Mists, which put me at about 65% crit chance.

If this is an upgrade, it’s a rather poor one for what we lose and won’t change how we play at all, just a few numbers that really aren’t that great. Your position is just as subjective, so stop calling the rest of the pots black.

Solori.6025:

People said this when the renegade was revealed, a lot of " We havent even tested it yet you cant judge it based on the leaks" and come to find out, the renegade sucks.
Sometimes, its better to call a spade a spade instead of hoping it turns into a king later with testing.
If it is unviable, in the controlled environment that is the pvp testing grounds
Their is a very high possibility it’s going to straight up suck in other places.
Better to say whats wrong with it now then ’ waiting" for the official release and getting an elite spec no one will use.

Renegade sucks for PvP and WvW. No one is even trying to say otherwise to my knowledge.

The problem is you can’t call a spade a spade because you likely haven’t done a 5 player DPS test to see how much damage add there is from the Bleed Well let alone the Damage add Well. Both of which arguably, even just eyeballing the numbers on the Bleed Well alone, will do more damage than Vengeful Hammers in Jalis. This will make her utilities, since all we use Jalis for is hammers, more useful than Jalis as a straight upgrade.

I’m 100% with you that we should ask for upgrades now, but again we also shouldn’t overstate the case at hand because then it’s likely everything will be ignored. Claiming that a whole spec is not going to be good in PvE when we can already see that 2/3rds of it will be upgrades to existing Condi Revenant specs and the other 1/3rd useful in other parts of PvE it’s a hard case to sell that the spec is bad.

We should be focusing our efforts on making it more viable on the PvP and WvW fronts where it does tremendously need a lot of work.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Has anyone forgotten here how core reve is able to output 30k condi damage now?
And renegade sure doesn’t look like a downgrade in terms of conditions.

And power builds are gonna get even sweeter – tons of extra ferocity and crit chance on renegade talk. Don’t like Kalla? Don’t take her. Don’t want shortbow? No one’s forcing you. The traitline alone is huge to push revenant far ahead in dps compared to what it was just recently.

Now will he be garbage or not compared to other classes – that remains to be seen. But lets remember that this beta prieview is far from balanced (hi holosmith damage) and there will most certainly be changes, if not to renegade himself then to others.

I think the problem is people aren’t going to be choosing shortbow or kalla legend because they just aren’t good in any situation. It’s not going to be a situational thing. The traitline is decent, but that’s not an excuse to not fix the new skills just because “you don’t have to take them.”

CutesySylveon.8290:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Kidel.2057:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

Nah, they’ll invite Firebrand or Holosmith, since they just have way more condi dps and far more support and survivability. Or Elementalist, that’s still probably the best class if they nerf Holosmith as they should.

That’s a player exclusivity issue. Anything 30k or higher is totally viable in pve raids. If people don’t realize that they’re kittenes. I’ve been playing power rev/condi rev in raids for the past year (i.e. after it fell out of meta). If some people don’t want you, kitten em, make your own groups or find people who do. That’s what I did. That’s what friends of mine who played Condi Thief before it became amazing did. Rev might not be used for most speedclears, but whatever, it’s totally capable at pulling good damage and can effectively clear the content. Renegade is a total upgrade for condi rev. Period.

Saying it won’t be “good for pve” is just pure ignorance or based on your own subjective opinion on what “good” is.

For a total upgrade to condi revenant, you make use of less than half your traits in PvE: the first tier of traits are completely worthless if you don’t use a SB and we have no means of applying bleed from traits, the second tier is just as worthless if you don’t use SB or Kalla, and she only becomes usable for protection, which Glint can do better. The last tier is likely going to be Lasting Legacy to boost Kalla’s Fervor stacks.

You shouldn’t need the F2; Kalla’s Fervor is dumb easy to stack since in full Viper’s gear we’ll be overstacked on precision with Invocation and the might you give is less than Herald could have done much easier. F3 is the main energy dump so less time making use of your normal rotations. F4 is not worth trying to keep up with since it’s once again an energy dump and for only 4 seconds. No point in this when chrono exists, not even when traited, which also takes your Fervor stacks down.

What do you get from all this and what do you lose? (This is without Kalla and SB, because you say Renegade is a straight upgrade, not the weapon or the legend.)

We get Kalla’s Fervor, which is a good buff to both ferocity and condi damage, and some precision buffs from the trait line that cap us over 100% crit with Invocation.

We lose Assassin’s Presence, which is less ferocity than traited Kalla’s Fervor, but it’s a group buff. We lose Ferocious Strikes, which puts our ferocity over what Kalla’s Fervor would give when using the previously mentioned trait. We lose all of the Devastation minors, which all aid in damage, the first to a lesser extent when Vulnerability is capped, and we lose Swift Termination.

Or if we drop Invocation, we lose our stun break on legend swap, the 7% buff to both condi and power damage, might from fury gain, a condi cleanse or single attack buff, and Rolling Mists, which put me at about 65% crit chance.

If this is an upgrade, it’s a rather poor one for what we lose and won’t change how we play at all, just a few numbers that really aren’t that great. Your position is just as subjective, so stop calling the rest of the pots black.

It is objectively higher damage in a raid scenario, based on numbers alone, to drop invocation in a raid setting and use Kalla instead. If you haven’t taken the time to run the numbers yourself, I would suggest you do so.

Every buff from invocation is overwritten by something that Kalla offers and her utilities are wayyyy better than just spamming Vengeful Hammers on Jalis on swap every 10s. She adds 13% condi damage and 300 ferocity over Invocation, adds 13% more crit with full endurance than Roiling Mists does and having full endurance isn’t hard in raids if you know what you’re doing. We get bleed from Geomancy and/or Sigil of Earth, so heartpiercer and blood fury are in fact damage increases to the current condi rev build.

Definitely not calling the pot black. Calling out the pot for not having done it’s homework…and if you’re talking about open world pve, then you’re free to run whatever, but, like i said, objectively Kalla IS a dps increase over our current condi build. Period.

otto.5684:

The main comparison for now is with Herald. Yes, Kalla is a buff to condi damage in PvE group setting. In every other shape or form Herald is much better, especially in PvP. In addition, Kalla has too many utilities that will end-up not being used due to functionality and energy cost. The new weapon is borderline useless.

Again, there are 8 other new elites specs, that we dunno where will they stand when the dust settles. We do know where the 9 HoT elites stand. I can assure you renegade cannot compete with them. Not even remotely. And its not just numbers adjustment. There are some major functionality problems with Kalla. Explain to me how will you fight a DH or Chrono with Kalla?

Agree to disagree. First off Renegade does not chain you to Kalla. Or the shortbow. Only thing you’re chained to as renegade is the elite spec line and wholly optional F2-F4 skills that don’t take away anything from core Reve.

Renegade is also a boost to PvE power damage not just condi – 33% crit chance when endurance is full + 300 ferocity from traited kalla’s fervor stacks talks. And for all the eternal complaining bout energy costs, stacking fervor requires 0 energy. Just crit with your autos and you’re already on your way there, more so if you flank them.

Also the much hated Kalla utilities can end up being very useful in PvE setting. Razerclaw’s edge bleeds are basically huge free condi damage boost if they are calculted off your condi damage and duration when allies apply them. 50 bleeds in total to grab.

The elite is also impactful – it’s like vampiric presence only you know…meaningful.
Even if we scratch the damage part (cause upkeep cost will lower yours), the healing coefficient is quite nice and renegade with all the bonus crit chance and ferocity can go into unusual stat sets like for example crusader (power, toughness, ferocity, healing power), to ramp it up to around 500 health healed per hit per ally.

That’s a huge breathing room for the healer, who can get far more offensive if renegade is serious about his elite.

As for DH or chrono – how you’re gonna beat them as renegade? Answer: you can’t beat what doesn’t exist. And that’s pretty much what you’ll get once spellbreakers, soulbeasts and scourges hit pvp with all the boon and block hate. Dragon Hunsters are practically toast once these guys roll out. You’re not expected to beat everything with one single char. You don’t go duelling a thief (given they know their stuff) as a necro, or trying to 1v1 a zerk warr as a ranger.

While not as bad as dragon hunters, chronomancer also aren’t gonna have a field day when a soulbeast or spellbreaker jumps them. One will be able to outsustain their damage without losing capture point for a second, the other will rip every boon they have and tear them open a new one th moment they try to block. Scratch that, both can. Now both warr and ranger have on demand unblockable time frames

You’re not expected to handle each and every profession and their build. As for herald’s superiority in pvp you may wanna hold off your horses for reasons mentioned above. Tons of boons? blocking? On herald you’re not that far from being in same kittenty situation as DH and chronos. You too won’t enjoy a visit from your friendly neighbourhood spellbreaker, scourge or soul beast.

Meanwhile renegade has some nice non-boon defenses like condi damage reduction, life leech, or ample cc. It’s not perfect, but i think ppl give it far too little credit.

Hoshinohi.1896:

The eliteskill is fixed right now and provides 800 damage per used skill for up to 5 teammembers which alone is allready a major damage increase.

vs herald with ~10+ might stacks to everyone, that will give much more then 800dps to five people.

And one more, the major thing.

Renegade gameplay is boring. Even tetris will give you more fun and challenge.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

otto.5684:

The main comparison for now is with Herald. Yes, Kalla is a buff to condi damage in PvE group setting. In every other shape or form Herald is much better, especially in PvP. In addition, Kalla has too many utilities that will end-up not being used due to functionality and energy cost. The new weapon is borderline useless.

Again, there are 8 other new elites specs, that we dunno where will they stand when the dust settles. We do know where the 9 HoT elites stand. I can assure you renegade cannot compete with them. Not even remotely. And its not just numbers adjustment. There are some major functionality problems with Kalla. Explain to me how will you fight a DH or Chrono with Kalla?

Agree to disagree. First off Renegade does not chain you to Kalla. Or the shortbow. Only thing you’re chained to as renegade is the elite spec line and wholly optional F2-F4 skills that don’t take away anything from core Reve.

Renegade is also a boost to PvE power damage not just condi – 33% crit chance when endurance is full + 300 ferocity from traited kalla’s fervor stacks talks. And for all the eternal complaining bout energy costs, stacking fervor requires 0 energy. Just crit with your autos and you’re already on your way there, more so if you flank them.

Also the much hated Kalla utilities can end up being very useful in PvE setting. Razerclaw’s edge bleeds are basically huge free condi damage boost if they are calculted off your condi damage and duration when allies apply them. 50 bleeds in total to grab.

The elite is also impactful – it’s like vampiric presence only you know…meaningful.
Even if we scratch the damage part (cause upkeep cost will lower yours), the healing coefficient is quite nice and renegade with all the bonus crit chance and ferocity can go into unusual stat sets like for example crusader (power, toughness, ferocity, healing power), to ramp it up to around 500 health healed per hit per ally.

That’s a huge breathing room for the healer, who can get far more offensive if renegade is serious about his elite.

As for DH or chrono – how you’re gonna beat them as renegade? Answer: you can’t beat what doesn’t exist. And that’s pretty much what you’ll get once spellbreakers, soulbeasts and scourges hit pvp with all the boon and block hate. Dragon Hunsters are practically toast once these guys roll out. You’re not expected to beat everything with one single char. You don’t go duelling a thief (given they know their stuff) as a necro, or trying to 1v1 a zerk warr as a ranger.

While not as bad as dragon hunters, chronomancer also aren’t gonna have a field day when a soulbeast or spellbreaker jumps them. One will be able to outsustain their damage without losing capture point for a second, the other will rip every boon they have and tear them open a new one th moment they try to block. Scratch that, both can. Now both warr and ranger have on demand unblockable time frames

You’re not expected to handle each and every profession and their build. As for herald’s superiority in pvp you may wanna hold off your horses for reasons mentioned above. Tons of boons? blocking? On herald you’re not that far from being in same kittenty situation as DH and chronos. You too won’t enjoy a visit from your friendly neighbourhood spellbreaker, scourge or soul beast.

Meanwhile renegade has some nice non-boon defenses like condi damage reduction, life leech, or ample cc. It’s not perfect, but i think ppl give it far too little credit.

I was totally gonna get behind you until the PvP bit.
While it’s true, a lot of other professions will have a hard time vs others.
The Renegade has a hard time vs everything because of it’s lack of meaningful defenses
Glint offered CC, a stun break, possibly the best heal the class has, damage boost via boons and tons of synergy between that with its trait line.

Their are too many weaknesses to the renegade for it to even be considered remotely viable in pvp and wvw.
and it’s not just the people in this thread that think so.
Take a look around the forums. Everyone is pretty much in agreement on one thing.
The renegade for pvp and wvw is a complete and total bucket of kitten

ZeftheWicked.3076:

otto.5684:

The main comparison for now is with Herald. Yes, Kalla is a buff to condi damage in PvE group setting. In every other shape or form Herald is much better, especially in PvP. In addition, Kalla has too many utilities that will end-up not being used due to functionality and energy cost. The new weapon is borderline useless.

Again, there are 8 other new elites specs, that we dunno where will they stand when the dust settles. We do know where the 9 HoT elites stand. I can assure you renegade cannot compete with them. Not even remotely. And its not just numbers adjustment. There are some major functionality problems with Kalla. Explain to me how will you fight a DH or Chrono with Kalla?

Agree to disagree. First off Renegade does not chain you to Kalla. Or the shortbow. Only thing you’re chained to as renegade is the elite spec line and wholly optional F2-F4 skills that don’t take away anything from core Reve.

Renegade is also a boost to PvE power damage not just condi – 33% crit chance when endurance is full + 300 ferocity from traited kalla’s fervor stacks talks. And for all the eternal complaining bout energy costs, stacking fervor requires 0 energy. Just crit with your autos and you’re already on your way there, more so if you flank them.

Also the much hated Kalla utilities can end up being very useful in PvE setting. Razerclaw’s edge bleeds are basically huge free condi damage boost if they are calculted off your condi damage and duration when allies apply them. 50 bleeds in total to grab.

The elite is also impactful – it’s like vampiric presence only you know…meaningful.
Even if we scratch the damage part (cause upkeep cost will lower yours), the healing coefficient is quite nice and renegade with all the bonus crit chance and ferocity can go into unusual stat sets like for example crusader (power, toughness, ferocity, healing power), to ramp it up to around 500 health healed per hit per ally.

That’s a huge breathing room for the healer, who can get far more offensive if renegade is serious about his elite.

As for DH or chrono – how you’re gonna beat them as renegade? Answer: you can’t beat what doesn’t exist. And that’s pretty much what you’ll get once spellbreakers, soulbeasts and scourges hit pvp with all the boon and block hate. Dragon Hunsters are practically toast once these guys roll out. You’re not expected to beat everything with one single char. You don’t go duelling a thief (given they know their stuff) as a necro, or trying to 1v1 a zerk warr as a ranger.

While not as bad as dragon hunters, chronomancer also aren’t gonna have a field day when a soulbeast or spellbreaker jumps them. One will be able to outsustain their damage without losing capture point for a second, the other will rip every boon they have and tear them open a new one th moment they try to block. Scratch that, both can. Now both warr and ranger have on demand unblockable time frames

You’re not expected to handle each and every profession and their build. As for herald’s superiority in pvp you may wanna hold off your horses for reasons mentioned above. Tons of boons? blocking? On herald you’re not that far from being in same kittenty situation as DH and chronos. You too won’t enjoy a visit from your friendly neighbourhood spellbreaker, scourge or soul beast.

Meanwhile renegade has some nice non-boon defenses like condi damage reduction, life leech, or ample cc. It’s not perfect, but i think ppl give it far too little credit.

What you are saying is redundant. You explain what renegade does. Everyone posting here understand what it does and understand it is a buff to PvE condi damage. That is all what it is and does and that is the problem. It is just the same build using the same weapon (mace+axe) doing the same thing with slight group support.

New elites are supposed to open new builds either thematically or in play style and renegade does neither on top of being close to useless in PvP. It needs major work to be release ready, and probably some major restructuring of utilities functionality and costs.

Solori.6025:

Their are too many weaknesses to the renegade for it to even be considered remotely viable in pvp and wvw.
and it’s not just the people in this thread that think so.
Take a look around the forums. Everyone is pretty much in agreement on one thing.
The renegade for pvp and wvw is a complete and total bucket of kitten

This.
I really cant stand the idea of another spec being “made” to fit for one game mode.
This is the same problem I had with Scrapper: cool theme, GREAT for PvP/WvW, but offers too little in PvE to be worth considering. Now, its Renegade being likely to be “optimal” in PvE and subpar everywhere else instead of being a viable alternative for different game modes like Dragonhunter/Tempest/Druid/Herald were.

i’d like to add something, iv been reading most of the posts on renegade in pve, and i see alot of people saying the ’’summons’’ or ’’illusion’s’’ or whatever are strong in pve.

that might be true in openworld, in Raids/Fractals they might work in very certain scenarios/bosses. but otherwise they wont work that well and that’s including the over glorified elite. the reason for that is they’re easy to kill we don’t have a trait that increases their range/survivability like rangers do, so adds or even bosses might squish them but that remains to be seen, the second problem however is bigger.

any kind of cc will disable any effect the summons are giving out, an example to give is imagine using your elite summon and gorseval slams the ground, you and your group might of dodged but the summon is now cced and you’re draining energy and it’s not giving out the life drain/siphon anymore. meanwhile ranger spirits for example give out their buffs regardless of cc without energy costs.

otto.5684:

What you are saying is redundant. You explain what renegade does. Everyone posting here understand what it does and understand it is a buff to PvE condi damage. That is all what it is and does and that is the problem. It is just the same build using the same weapon (mace+axe) doing the same thing with slight group support.

New elites are supposed to open new builds either thematically or in play style and renegade does neither on top of being close to useless in PvP. It needs major work to be release ready, and probably some major restructuring of utilities functionality and costs.

I said clearly that it’s also a buff to power specs. Again, no one’s arm-twisting you into using shortbow or kalla legend. Just grab the line and enjoy extra ferocity, crit chance and 3 new F skills. There’s something for non-condi in each tier of the line.

Also if herald is “the only” spvp spec, then that’s still one more spec then we had so far for raids. There he was kiter for w4 at best and that’s it. Worse then a necro even. Renegade will change that, and i believe it’ll happen on both power and condi fronts.

If there is any gripe i have with renegade it’s Revenants lack of hybrid weapon. One that does decent condi and power damage. Renegade is build for hybrid damage (so much free crit chance + ferocity) – he could equip viper’s and have very strong power damage still. Alas i see no weapon in his kit that could take advantage of this massive opportunity and that saddens me.

DevisedDemise.2608:

i’d like to add something, iv been reading most of the posts on renegade in pve, and i see alot of people saying the ’’summons’’ or ’’illusion’s’’ or whatever are strong in pve.

that might be true in openworld, in Raids/Fractals they might work in very certain scenarios/bosses. but otherwise they wont work that well and that’s including the over glorified elite. the reason for that is they’re easy to kill we don’t have a trait that increases their range/survivability like rangers do, so adds or even bosses might squish them but that remains to be seen, the second problem however is bigger.

any kind of cc will disable any effect the summons are giving out, an example to give is imagine using your elite summon and gorseval slams the ground, you and your group might of dodged but the summon is now cced and you’re draining energy and it’s not giving out the life drain/siphon anymore. meanwhile ranger spirits for example give out their buffs regardless of cc without energy costs.

This is true… I mean, we’ve only seen them in PvP, so maybe they’ll be immune to PvE damage? Because, ya, it’ll be pretty laughable when they all instantly die to a Seeker Orb, Gorse Tantrum, Flame Wall, Poison Aura, Sniper shots, Ghosts running through them, KC pizza slice cleave, Xera fields, Cairn’s kitten swipe, MO Floors, Sam Waves, and Deimos Slams. AKA: Every raid boss having something that will kill them instantly unless they don’t take damage from PvE sources.

I mean, I would assume they’d ignore this type of damage like Ranger pets and Engi Turrets, but then again anet always find new and creative ways to dump on revenants, so who knows.

Pretty sure someone already said summoned type skills for players in Pve have 90% damage reduction so they will be fine in pve content.

Many of you are not factoring the huge condi madness of the other classes. Maybe Renegade will have a small role in increasing the condi dps of other classes in low geared groups.

Go see all the procs that Scourge gets in every skill. It’s so synergic with core Necro. Not to mention barrier, boonrip, cleansing and so on. It’s basically Ventari+Mallyx+Kalla on its own.

Rebagade could be maybe viable in an HoT over scenario, but given the other specs, it will be forgotten quickly

Uhhhh Currently Condi rev hits 32k on a NON moving golem with a legend that honestly has no real synergy jails. Add in shortbow alone and we gain access to a condi (bleeding) we never had before outside of a sigil proc geomancy plus some more burning.

Gain access to a raw damage increase with Kalla’s Fevor which will undoubtedly be traited for pve 300% ferocity and 20% condition damage are you kidding me??? We have a trait that increases our bleeding by 25% when we have fury. Shortbow skills will pierce and inflict 25% more bleeding with heartpiercer.

Then we have the utility skills where they’re going to be perfectly fine in a pve setting because summoned Ai take massively reduced damage. Razorclaw’s Rage will effectively give 5 allies 10 bleed stacks.

While Icerazors fire will prob be used by power builds it actually does a healthy amount of damage. Then Darkrazor’s Daring which is 6 pulses of daze which in itself is decent cc 600 break bar damage over the course of 6 seconds so you can be doing other break bar damage with sb 5 which is 200 for a total.

Then ofc the elite skill which is just an outright damage boost because the damage portion has no icd. Plus its an energy drain type again which will proc Diabolic Inferno just more than once if energy permitting.

Lalainnia.3598:

Uhhhh Currently Condi rev hits 32k on a NON moving golem with a legend that honestly has no real synergy jails. Add in shortbow alone and we gain access to a condi (bleeding) we never had before outside of a sigil proc geomancy plus some more burning.

Gain access to a raw damage increase with Kalla’s Fevor which will undoubtedly be traited for pve 300% ferocity and 20% condition damage are you kidding me??? We have a trait that increases our bleeding by 25% when we have fury. Shortbow skills will pierce and inflict 25% more bleeding with heartpiercer.

Then we have the utility skills where they’re going to be perfectly fine in a pve setting because summoned Ai take massively reduced damage. Razorclaw’s Rage will effectively give 5 allies 10 bleed stacks.

While Icerazors fire will prob be used by power builds it actually does a healthy amount of damage. Then Darkrazor’s Daring which is 6 pulses of daze which in itself is decent cc 600 break bar damage over the course of 6 seconds so you can be doing other break bar damage with sb 5 which is 200 for a total.

Then ofc the elite skill which is just an outright damage boost because the damage portion has no icd. Plus its an energy drain type again which will proc Diabolic Inferno just more than once if energy permitting.

Oh I sooo want to really get behind you on your points, all great ones! Am so holding out hope that what you have mentioned is viable. But…..what about:

“any kind of cc will disable any effect the summons are giving out, an example to give is imagine using your elite summon and gorseval slams the ground, you and your group might of dodged but the summon is now cced and you’re draining energy and it’s not giving out the life drain/siphon anymore. meanwhile ranger spirits for example give out their buffs regardless of cc without energy costs.”

That’s a very good point, unless as you mentioned its not the case in pve? I myself am not really sure but if bosses can make them useless then we are right back to standing at the entrance to raid watching the parade go by.

Joxer.6024:

Oh I sooo want to really get behind you on your points, all great ones! Am so holding out hope that what you have mentioned is viable. But…..what about:

“any kind of cc will disable any effect the summons are giving out, an example to give is imagine using your elite summon and gorseval slams the ground, you and your group might of dodged but the summon is now cced and you’re draining energy and it’s not giving out the life drain/siphon anymore. meanwhile ranger spirits for example give out their buffs regardless of cc without energy costs.”

That’s a very good point, unless as you mentioned its not the case in pve? I myself am not really sure but if bosses can make them useless then we are right back to standing at the entrance to raid watching the parade go by.

Well Soulcleave has no cool down so it’s just a matter of toggling it on/off but then there’s the DPS loss of having to recast it.

The wells themselves have a 360 AOE radius, same as Meteor Shower, so they can be positioned strategically on some encounters but otherwise massive AOE CC just won’t be avoided.

They are summons. That means you can give them boons. That jalis stability road is about to get a brand new reason to be used

Confirming from today’s stress test. Traits are nice (even if Brutal Momentum has ICD for some reason), but probably not worth taking over Herald (flat +2% damage per boon plus defensive stuff, overall with perma boons may be better then just Kalla’s Fervor).

Shortbow is meh, F-Skills are unusable (you either use them and AA all the time, or play normally and never use the F-Skills) and Kalla skills are complete trash. I think that there is no need to explain why. You basically use 1, it gets killed and you have to AA for 10 seconds or legendswap.

It’s probably not worth over Herald even on condi builds, not to mention power builds.
The only decent things about this spec are Kalla’s Fervor and the +33% crit, but only on paper, since the trait is bugged and atm works with a 8 second ICD (as soon as you get Vigor your 33% crit chance goes away).

Again, on paper there are some nice things on the F-Skills, but I’m unable to add them in the normal rotation without having to waste 4-7 seconds autoattacking. F3 IS 40 ENERGY, COME ON.

Energy is the issue for me. Real potential for something fun here but energy holds me back in a big way. It did in the PvP Test and it did in this Stress Test.

Shortbow condis have low duration and it feels like mostly a spammy weapon but good luck playing it fun with these costs. I hope they get reduced before release.

Yeah, there were no changes in today’s stress test numbers from what we saw on the PvP/WvW test…

Sylvyn.4750:

Yeah, there were no changes in today’s stress test numbers from what we saw on the PvP/WvW test…

Not that numbers are the real and only problem.
How do they expect to fix and balance this class with no new beta or community feedback on the horizon?