Guild Wars 2

Hey all, Sikari checking in on Revenant. I want to pre-face, obviously, I’m not an “expert” Revenant yet, as no one is, but I’ve done my fair bit of testing so far, tried many builds, and then did some basic comparisons, design dissecting and so on, and wanted to weigh in with a list of things I liked, disliked and things that were just broken all around.

General
Rigid Weapons
Weapons are not universal in the slightest, and not built for multi-focal gameplay. They should have a design more similar to Elementalist, Grenades, or Warrior Sword+LB, in the sense that they can be utilized differently based on stats. This may mean low base options with greatly increased scaling to ensure weapons are able to be used across the class adequately. Currently it’s very Weapon-to-Legend based, and it shows.

Very Slow
Ideally, all classes would be a bit closer to Revenant, but it’s not likely to be the case any time soon. As such, the Revenant is entirely too slow. This comes in many ways. Their mobility and “stickiness” is an issue itself, but worse of all, many cast times make the class unusable against certain classes with many fast control effects.

Easy Target
Currently, revenant feels fairly powerless against ranged attackers. Thier condition-based gap closer fails frequently, and beyond that they have little soft-CC and hard CC (that isn’t displacing the enemy further away from you). In melee, they simply don’t hold up to other heavier classes and lack the damage even when fully condition or power based (granted, lack of “dps weapon”, but this should not be the case with the class’s design, anyways). All of the above is further crippling with long response times and cast times that leaves you feeling sluggish and unable to defend yourself.

Energy
Energy is nice, but mostly for the utilities. For weapons, it just feels like a hindrance. Swapping to a new weapon and using a single skill, for example, instantly locks you out of Forced engagement which is frequently dodged, dazed (which consumes energy) and so on. It’s very easy to be Energy starved and there are no energy recovery mechanics to be found, including traits, interrupt protection (back end), and misses. Weapons using energy simply leave the class feeling clunky would be the short version of the message to convey.

Not Customizable
Weapons are tied to legends, Legends are tied to trait lines, legends have a very specific set of utilities. There just isn’t much real choice in the class, much worse than originally expected due to the rigidness of weapons and traits. Legends could really use 1-2 additional utilities to have some sort of choice, and as said, weapons must be multi-purpose for the class’s design to work.

Weapons
Staff
Staff is generally, pretty fun. As with all melee Revenant weapons, it lacks soft CC and lacks mutli-purpose, which is counter-design with the revenant. Skill 2 is an unnecessary two-part attack, easily leaving much to be desired, and even when it does work, the reward is minimal. Skill 3 feels useful and is fun to watch. Skill 4 should not self-root, and generally speaking, the cast is too long to be entirely useful. For not healing builds, the gain of health is also very low. Skill 5 is the staff’s bread and butter, lower the cooldown so we can have fun more often!

Mace+Axe
Maxe and axe. First off, the auto attack conditions just don’t really feel like they are impactful enough and the melee range, once again, is crippling for a class that simply doesn’t hold up well in face-to-face combat. Mace 2 is slow, but otherwise could be okay, I believe, if not for the insane cast time. Mace 3 feels like it wants to fill that multi-purpose role, but still doesn’t do enough to justify playing a power mace build, nor does the rest of the weapon. Could use some improvements, especially like adding a pretty strong cripple to it. Axe 4, as said before, misses often and you basically lost all of your mobility for 12 seconds. Axe 5, the pull is too small, and sometimes just doesn’t work at all.

continued…

Hammer
Hammer is frustrating for me. I want to love it, and I almost kind of do… The auto attack visual is just boring… why not swing waves of mist or something?! It could have been so much more than it is. Beyond that, not very impactful. Doesn’t hold up to other ranged power weapons, honestly and is way too slow. Hammer 2 seems okay could use a 1/2 cast and a slightly faster point-to-point impact speed, as it’s very easy to miss at range (when it’s actually even strong enough to use). Hammer 3 is strange to use, and doesn’t feel worth it. It’s slow in just about every way and adds very little benefit to using it. Hammer 4 is good, honestly. It has a solid uptime, at least. Could definitely use a lower cast time and some sort of benefit to using it against melee attackers where hammer suffers greatly, right now. Hammer 5… A ground targeted cast that takes 2 seconds to cast… I just can’t, it’s so bad… It might be okay in WvW, I guess? But overall it’s just really really bad in terms of cast time. It just not necessary for a weapon with no swaps to be this slow and unimpactful.

Legends
Note: I don’t enjoy swapping to 50%. I understand it might feel like a good choice, but ultimately, in the heat of battle, more than a starting point, it feels like an Energy cap of 50, not 100, as using energy on weapons skills AND utilities rarely leaves lots of leniency other than when you’re fleeing while in combat still, which is about the only time I felt myself inching toward 100 energy. (Aka, not actually fighting, just in combat.) It feels bad to swap into certain legends and instantly be locked of all skills after using one move.

Mallyx
Mallyx is interesting, but incredibly trait-dependant. You basically can’t use it without the Demonic Defiance trait. Why would you? It’s practically the best (/one of the few) perks of even being a revenant right now… Fun heal, long cooldown, decent synergy with the skills though. Pain absorption is okay, good group utility, but loses steam in smaller fights, where other skills take priority and resistance from other utilities holds up just fine, long cast time. Banish Enchantment is amazing, would push for 1 less vulnerability on the self, but overall, great. Unyielding Anguish, I just love it so much, but I know it will get nerfed into oblivion one day. I’ll enjoy it while I can. The skill itself, not that impactful and self-crippling isn’t fun at all, but man, that displacement is AMAZING utility. and only way I can survive melee right now. Too bad my dps is all melee, too! Embrace the Darkness elite, could be okay. Should pulse a bit faster and ready up faster. Currently only copies 1 stack of conditions on you, not sure if intended but it leaves much to be desired.

Jalis
Jalis seems okay. Suffers a lot from the “can’t change utilities” syndrome. The heal is great but the cooldown is far too long. Inspiring Reinforcement is pretty good. I have to start many fights off with it so I can even move for a second, so that’s good. Forced Engagement frustrates me. I want to love it, but I can’t, it’s too often avoided, you lose so much energy that most times it literally just screws you over to use it. It’s too slow to use as a real interrupt reaction-wise, leaves much to be desired. Vengeful Hammers, I really really really dislike this skill. It’s so boring, ruins energy, and generally useless for the most part. Rite of the Great Dwarf, the cast time? Give it a cooldown, stop the PVE exploitability of the skill and make it useful in real encounters, PLEASE… It’s frustrating.

Ventari
I don’t know what to say here, anything I say will be controversial. People like leaving it behind, people want to bring it where-ever it is, people are so torn here, as am I. The closest thing I could say to fix it, is make it auto-summon on entrance and follow the revenant, move Natural Harmony (burst heal utility) to the actual healing skill and add a new skill in it’s place. Finally, have all skills be “ground targetted” and have the tablet teleport to the place chosen when activating, then return to the revenant after it is casted. This would allow the pulse heals and traits to be useful, and give the best control over it’s utility locations that I could think of. Additionally, increase the impact ranges from 240 to 360 radius (except projectile block bubble) (Note: By follow, I mean be practically attached to the character, so it has no pathing issues, not a “roaming follow”.)

continued…

Traits
I don’t want to hit EVERY trait, but I just want to say, many traits feel WEAK. They look like they were designed for the old system before traits were merged and buffed. Compared to other classes, many traits are weak, coupled with long ICDs and many are honestly worse versions of things that already exist. Example, Nourishing Roots, 240 radius 2 regen per 3 seconds. Inspiring Banners (while even actually worse than they were) are 3 seconds of regen per 3 seconds in a 600 radius and frankly, less cumbersome to move around (as their abilities can actually be used to help mobility too). Grand Master-level traits don’t feel game-changing at ALL, and many are just weak (Diabolic Inferno, Manical Persistence, Charged Mists, Empowering Vengeance, Reflexive summon, Steadfast Rejuvination- worse healing than soothing mists). There’s just no reason for many of the traits to have the ICDs they have and are bland and weak frequently. Lots of work needs to be done here.

Bugs
Just wanted to create a quick bug list.
- Embrace the Darkness copies only 1 stack.
- Embrace the Darkness can be spammed to trigger Momentary Pacification daze.
- Momentary Pacification daze doesn’t actually work, however. Shows on bars, but doesn’t prevent casting.
- You can stow-cancel all Mallyx utilities to stack resistance with Demonic Defiance trait.
- Forced Engangement can bug and prevent untargetting entirely. Other times it doesn’t work at all. (Hectic mechanics.)

More extensive list can be found here.

Thanks!
Thanks for reading, sorry if it seems a bit critical. I enjoy the feel and visuals of the class, and overall, I see great potential. The class needs a lot to bring it in-line with post-patch classes, however, which is something I look forward to seeing.

~ Sikari

I like your feedback. Some nice summation of issues but focused on weapons, legends, and some overarching issues.

Genesis.8572:

I like your feedback. Some nice summation of issues but focused on weapons, legends, and some overarching issues.

Hey, thanks! I like the base idea of the class, so I just don’t want to encourage deviating too far from the general goal. I just feel there needs to be a lot of refinement. Easily, tweaks to what exists could make it more viable (except there needs to be significant changes to weapons to make them multi-purpose). It’s for these reasons I don’t think it’s entirely necessary to add a weapon swap. Just simply make the weapon we do use more flexibly and stronger.

Great stuff, now if only the right people happen to read this. Revenant has a lot of potential in its mechanics, however, right now I am sorry to say parts of it feel like the developers sandbox (Hey, we can do this cool thing with skills now lets put it on Revenant!).

I like new and interesting mechanics as much as the next guy, but right now I am feeling like Revenant is a class entirely built around these invisible bundles that the devs made and we as players are not really allowed to change at all. This class is the Engineer kits for utilities and a single weapon from a set and that is about it.

Crise.9401:

Great stuff, now if only the right people happen to read this. Revenant has a lot of potential in its mechanics, however, right now I am sorry to say parts of it feel like the developers sandbox (Hey, we can do this cool thing with skills now lets put it on Revenant!).

I like new and interesting mechanics as much as the next guy, but right now I am feeling like Revenant is a class entirely built around these invisible bundles that the devs made and we as players are not really allowed to change at all. This class is the Engineer kits for utilities and a single weapon from a set and that is about it.

I had the same thought. The idea though isn’t bad, it’s unique and simple enough to work, if only it wasn’t so rigid in design. If have absolutely no problem with the general idea if, like I had said, you could change a few utilities but still within the same legend, and traits to be designed more on a level for the class as a whole. Right now, most traits are so deeply specific to their legend (as well as suggested weapon set) that the whole idea of having multiple legends barely holds any value because your weapon set will pretty much always exclude one of your legends.

The more disappointing part about most of this (to me) is this is a new build for Revenant, adding in the Ventari, and much of the skills and traits are weak and outdated as they were initially, which leaves me wondering where the new work on the old legends is, and why they didn’t update then accordingly. Seems a bit counter productive to have a beta weekend on outdated material, as feedback will never reflect the most recent version of the class. I just hope the changes are significant enough internally to address many of these pressing issues that currently will keep the class from having any real synergy within itself and any amount of customization.

So, after all of my testing (mostly pvp), I wanted to share a build I had the “most” success with so far. I was running a Hammer build actually, Jalis/Mallyx and Celestial or Crusaders (both work but have different benefits). Pack runes. Intel/Leeching with crusaders, Leeching/Doom with celestial (or you can continue to run Intel.)
Traits were: Corruption 2, 1, 2. Retribution 2, 1, 3 Invocation 2, 3, 1.

The idea is simple, against range you will strategically keep up your projectile defenses and hammer 1/2. Burn boons with Banish Enchantment as you see fit. Ranged without projectiles eat this build but I haven’t found a way around this for any revenant build.

Against melee, you will conserve energy to use Unyielding Anguish as frequently as you can (that you need it) to ensure maximum free-casting time. Before healing, try to use Brick Road, and use it often upon entering the form just to give you some stability. If the enemy is heavy melee, with stability it is sometimes a good idea to use Drop the Hammer. Either drop another road or taunt before going back to Demon form. From there it is much the same, juggle UA and Banish, and burst with Hammer 2.

Hammer 3 is frequently useless, but there have been moments where it’s displacement has come in handy while immobilized, so use it far away if you must avoid damage while immobilized. Never use it for offense, to me, it’s a waste of resources. Never try to Drop the hammer on a Ranged foe. I have not found a suitable time to use Jalis Hammers, either, nor the elite as it activates too slowly. You’re better off kiting and using stability or taunt for defenses and displacing enemies otherwise.

Give it a try!

Would love any and all feedback on the build, or my original post, including criticism, extensions or general agreement. Thanks!

I like your suggestion for Ventari.
My first though when trying it, was. “Why does my #6 skill have a cast time?” Its so annoying that you stop attacking for 0.5 seconds to move it, should be instant cast if its left as it is now.
Your idea of having it around the revenant all the time sounds good, and ground target on the utility and elite great aswell. But dont have it stuck on a person like Orianna’s ball from League of Legends. Would be annoying to target a person to have it stick to them, or it automatically sticks to a person who was affected by any ground target skill.

Manifibel.8420:

I like your suggestion for Ventari.
My first though when trying it, was. “Why does my #6 skill have a cast time?” Its so annoying that you stop attacking for 0.5 seconds to move it, should be instant cast if its left as it is now.
Your idea of having it around the revenant all the time sounds good, and ground target on the utility and elite great aswell. But dont have it stuck on a person like Orianna’s ball from League of Legends. Would be annoying to target a person to have it stick to them, or it automatically sticks to a person who was affected by any ground target skill.

Oh, no. At least, in my head, I was thinking to where it follows the revenant, like she is holding her own ball, then have it teleport to the location of said active skill, then teleport back to the caster after it executes. Like ground target, it spawns to the location and does its thing after a 1-1.5 second wind up, then it goes back to the Revenant. It’s not as “cool” and controlled, but it is far more realistic toward the gameplay in GW2. Of course this is only one way to handle it and is admittedly not as fun or unique, but I fear the current form just isn’t likely to be useful for very long and it’s very clear that they were trying to Minic that Legend in LoL. Unfortunately, I just don’t feel like that gameplay copies over well to GW2. It’s just a bit too hectic…

I just wanted to note in this, I will be updating it with the coming Shiro information, but I’ll likely wait until I fully test it myself.

However, I wanted to make note to the Devs, having a DPS legend does not remotely fix the issue of rigid weapons, and I sincerely feel this needs to be looked at.

Just a note. Weapons are not limited at all. Hammer is the same with every legend and has almost 0 sinergyvwith them, except some shared looks with Jalis. Same for mace and, I guess, swords.
Also staff is not the Ventari weapon, but the healing one, and Ventari happens to be the healing legend. Similar to Guardian’s staff, just melee.

I used mace with Jalis just fine, and hammer with mallyx. No prob

To be honest I find hammer being better then staff on ventari, and staff being very good on jalis. Rotating hammers are good on melee range, and tank loves healing.

Kidel.2057:

Just a note. Weapons are not limited at all. Hammer is the same with every legend and has almost 0 sinergyvwith them, except some shared looks with Jalis. Same for mace and, I guess, swords.
Also staff is not the Ventari weapon, but the healing one, and Ventari happens to be the healing legend. Similar to Guardian’s staff, just melee.

I used mace with Jalis just fine, and hammer with mallyx. No prob

To be honest I find hammer being better then staff on ventari, and staff being very good on jalis. Rotating hammers are good on melee range, and tank loves healing.

The problem isn’t within tank and Supporting weapons, as both of those are very “utility-bound” and trait-bound types, where conditions and weapon damage isn’t necessarily important, you use them more for control and their defensive values, and what fits your style.

The problem is for DPS and Condition damage (the primary roles of the game, especially PVP as a major focus) where coefficients and general condition availability is very much determined by your weapons, and if a weapon simply doesn’t have the coefficients or conditions, it’s not usable for those roles.

There are plenty of examples of weapon sets that do both effectively and instead of relying on hard-design, they have low base-high scaling coefficients to let stats determine your role, rather than just your weapon set. (See: Elementalists, Grenades, Warrior Swords and Longbow.)

As it stands, with the given coefficients, you won’t see a “dps” hammer or staff, and especially no condition-based anything other than mace because it just isn’t possible to do. That’s the main way that weapons are rigid and placed into roles. Their ties to a specific legend is just a subfactor of the same issue.

Again, yeah, it’s not nearly as prevalent in Support and tanking. Staff v Hammer is also a bad example to relate, tanks and healers typically both take toughness and healing power, and both weapons are based on CC, damage avoidance and utility.