Guild Wars 2

I’m worried that the Revenant may currently be becoming a little too powerful, especially with the inclusion of Herald. The pulsing Might and Fury they put out makes them a very attractive option in dungeon runes, and I worry they may invalidate other classes with similar roles in these groups. Phalanx Strength Warrior is likely to suffer a lot, as while Herald puts out less Might than they do, they also give the party permanent Fury and have lots of powerful defensive group support options available, too – Herald can go from stacking lots of DPS boons in Legendary Dragon Stance to providing powerful defensive utility through Legendary Dwarf or Centaur stance in a heartbeat. Warrior has to sacrifice the ability to give his team any defensive support to give his team offensive power, whereas Herald can grant his team great offensive and defensive support in the same build.

Coming back to the base Revenant, some of their critical hit-oriented traits worry me. Ferocious Strikes and Assassin’s Presence give them 300 bonus Ferocity (+150 to their group), meaning they make fantastic use of crit chance. Add Rolling Mists to that, and Revenant becomes a class that makes incredibly good use of crits, and has the easiest access to 100% crit chance in the game. I’m worried that this will invalidate the Precision support that other classes currently offer, specifically Spotter Ranger and Banner of Tactics Warrior.

Linking back in with my first point, my main concern about the Revenant is that it will stomp other classes out of the dungeon meta entirely, stacking Might as well as Warrior, providing more crit chance than Ranger (Which will become a problem if, as I worry, 2+ Revenants becomes the dungeon meta) and having almost as much defensive/healing utility as Guardian, while doing more damage than all 3. I’d like to propose a drop from Rolling Mists from 40% crit chance to 30%, so Revenant still benefits from buffs like Spotter, and increasing the Energy cost of either Facet of Darkness or Facet of Strength (So that these 2 Facets are more difficult to keep up simultaneously). That way, Heralds will have to make a choice on what boon they want to provide their party with, allowing them to remain a powerful offensive presence in dungeons without stepping on other class’ toes. What do you guys think?

Who cares about the dungeon meta just play what you want there.
Even if it kicks anything out of this meta they were in there for 2-3 years so whats the point if an other class takes the spot for a while.

Well it’s not only dungeons it’s raid too. The thing is that revenant is cool, really cool and it’s a new profession. Everyone is going to make one when hot is release, so even in raids, you are going to see only revenants. Revenants are going to became the most played class during six or ten months after hot release. It’s always like that when something new is added. But anet must polished other elite specs too i agree coz i’m afraid of, if some specs are not going good or not liked there is more revenant rerolling adding more to the pretty high number of revenants incomming.

Rev is in a good spot right now and for sure will have a stable plac ein Raid content.
But he doesn’t step on toes of other professions.
He has high DPS potential but so do condi engi and staff ele.
Can be a nice warrior replace, but the banners are the best part, and no one has similar mechanich.
Can be a nice condi manipulator, but so can Necro.
Has an awesome projectile hate, but no reflects.
Has no stealth.

All in all, it will fit in every group, you’ll never say “oh shoot, a revenant, i don’t want him in my group”. Like, ever. (Unless Roy nerfs him badly, and i hope not because right now is pretty balanced).

Probably in 5 man dungeon SPEED CLEAR dungeons won’t replace anyone (unless i’m mistaking and maybe forge, rev, druid, guard, chrono becomes the new meta compound, for example LOL ), but in raids, wvw, pvp i thinks is in a solid place.

We don’t really know how the raids are going to look like and what you need. They said it will be possible with every class combination. So you shoudn’t worry that you can’t join a raid with ranger or whatever you want to play.

+ Those other specs looked really decent to me specially the chronomancer and there are still a lot of chances to every spec.

It can brings many things, but it specialise in none. You won’t be sad to have a rev in party, but it won’t push out existing classes out of the meta.

Raids may be different.

Master of all trades? Were especially good with ranged condition weapon applying conditions at range and we have so many good secondary weapons to go along with mace/axe for condition build… .

Maximum Potato.5923:

I’m worried that the Revenant may currently be becoming a little too powerful, especially with the inclusion of Herald. The pulsing Might and Fury they put out makes them a very attractive option in dungeon runes, and I worry they may invalidate other classes with similar roles in these groups. Phalanx Strength Warrior is likely to suffer a lot, as while Herald puts out less Might than they do, they also give the party permanent Fury and have lots of powerful defensive group support options available, too – Herald can go from stacking lots of DPS boons in Legendary Dragon Stance to providing powerful defensive utility through Legendary Dwarf or Centaur stance in a heartbeat. Warrior has to sacrifice the ability to give his team any defensive support to give his team offensive power, whereas Herald can grant his team great offensive and defensive support in the same build.

Coming back to the base Revenant, some of their critical hit-oriented traits worry me. Ferocious Strikes and Assassin’s Presence give them 300 bonus Ferocity (+150 to their group), meaning they make fantastic use of crit chance. Add Rolling Mists to that, and Revenant becomes a class that makes incredibly good use of crits, and has the easiest access to 100% crit chance in the game. I’m worried that this will invalidate the Precision support that other classes currently offer, specifically Spotter Ranger and Banner of Tactics Warrior.

Linking back in with my first point, my main concern about the Revenant is that it will stomp other classes out of the dungeon meta entirely, stacking Might as well as Warrior, providing more crit chance than Ranger (Which will become a problem if, as I worry, 2+ Revenants becomes the dungeon meta) and having almost as much defensive/healing utility as Guardian, while doing more damage than all 3. I’d like to propose a drop from Rolling Mists from 40% crit chance to 30%, so Revenant still benefits from buffs like Spotter, and increasing the Energy cost of either Facet of Darkness or Facet of Strength (So that these 2 Facets are more difficult to keep up simultaneously). That way, Heralds will have to make a choice on what boon they want to provide their party with, allowing them to remain a powerful offensive presence in dungeons without stepping on other class’ toes. What do you guys think?

Revenant dps didn’t feel as high as Warrior or Range to me, and that was with the 10 might stacks. If all those 3 classes had the same might stacks, Rev would not be top.

I do acknowledge Rev’s provide lots of boons, but they will never displace a Phalanx warrior for might sharing solely because you can’t get more than a dozen might stacks shared (you can get 25 on yourself, not for whole group though). As such, you’d need 2 Rev’s for 1 phalanx war. Furthermore, you don;t really need more than one source for fury, regen or protection, so I doubt you’d see more than 1 rev in a dungeon party as part of the meta.

As for crit chance, even with fury, most classes in full zerk sit at 50% crit chance. Add % from food and buffs, they’re still only 80-85%. Spotter and discipline will take them to 100 and don;t forget some bosses lower crit chance. I don;t see why a Rev will displace a Ranger, when you can still take both (and get even more crit dmg from frost spirit).

The main class that should be fearing Rev’s are Guardian’s, Rev’s have better projectile blocks, more boons, possibly more healing (depends where Ventari ends up) and similar dps. Guardian’s best counter is their access to Aegis, but as DH hasn’t improved there PvE that much, Rev’s are better placed. Right now, I see 2 eles, 1 phalanx war, 1 chrono, 1 rev as possible meta.

With regards to your original concerns, I actually think the current upkeep costs are fine for 1 big reason. If you have the upkeeps on, you seriously hurt energy regen to the point that you cannot keep 5 upkeep points and do much more than auto attack. Also, not stance switching wastes access to a free second heal, 50 energy and w/e utilities/ elites you have.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Revenants do fall into the category of Jack of all trades, but the other half remains true as well (master of none). Having about 20 hours on my Rev I can say it’s a fantastic class for anyone who wants to be that guy who can adapt to best overcome a situation given how dynamically different the weapons and skills are. Anyway, here’s observation from a PvE Rev

I will say hands-down that the perma-swiftness alone was enough to cue to hallelujah chorus. Might was pretty easy to stack, but I could not get stacks up as easily or as fast as I could as a PS Warrior. In Trash mobs, I generally kept Strength Facet off since our Warrior maintained our might cap (Fire pre-blasting of course). Fury uptime was already 100% due to that same Fire pre-blasting before the fight. Against bosses though I did look out for our boon uptime (particularly might), but we were generally okay to the point to where I could use my active facet skills rather they leaving them toggled for boon up-time. Regen Facet was left untouched for the most part. Protection Facet was used as needed, though the upkeep cost on that really puts a limit on the rest of the skills I could use. If a high uptime of Protection was needed I mostly left that to the Hammer Guards. Facet of Nature was probably the best feature I could offer to the team as ANY boon got a 50% additional duration. So suddenly that Time Warp goes from 10/12 seconds to 15/18 seconds, Fire pre-blasting lasts enough for both trash and boss fights, and I’m free to swap out of Glint to my secondary Legend without worrying too much about dropping a boon.

Mallyx continued to be the powerhouse when I needed raw dps. Given Hardening Persistence from Herald, EtD also added quite a bit of toughness. Mallyx was also the only way to set up a condition build, but it was too dependent on the encounter to be able to manipulate conditions. Otherwise, condi builds were close to non-existent.

Shiro went mostly unused with the exception of boss fights that required a heavy amount of evades. Impossible odds was shelved for the most part as Quickness was plenty in most group. There is a bit of cheese in slotting Shiro for the Enchanted Daggers heal, slot out for another Legend, but still retain the dagger stacks. Phase Transversal was used as a make-shift shadowstep but had the annoying target requirement. Jalis didn’t have many shining moments either. Stab was very odd to set up as the 1 second wind-up time and positioning was the difference from applying the boon vs flying off those darn harpy platforms. The ‘tank’ skills didn’t have much of a place other than delaying my inevitable death at times. I’m sure both of these Legends have niche uses, but I didn’t discover them in my runs this weekend.

Ventari was the only other Legend I used, but it was primarily used for the shield. Though, I only used the shield when absolutely necessary as projectiles are much better dealt by other classes who can reflect rather than absorb. Heals were great, but trying to coordinate a team to catch your tablet heals/cleanses was about as easy as herding cats.

Overall, the selling point in the class was that the class is extremely versatile but not necessarily the best at one particular role over another class.

It surely is the Jack of heavy armor, but i have the feeling our peculiar skills will get a specialist role in the upcoming challenges (ventari, mallyx, glynt especially)

The strength of Revenant is flexibility in that it has options to complement other party members, but that doesn’t mean it replaces them. I keep trying to tell people in the guardian forums that the two go extremely well together. Nobody is getting replaced.

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Photinous.4628:

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Nope, Glint/Shiro will be the default in PvE with Glint/Ventari for times you need the projectile bubble. Glint has some very interesting PvE interactions that you’ll just have to wait for our guide to come out to hear more about. =)

Photinous.4628:

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Err, not necessarily. The active attacks on the Facets have a lot more potential than they made it seems in the Stream being both high in damage and able take up to 5 targets in a sizable radius. The secondary effects of those active attacks are very worthwhile as well.

Mallyx looks great on paper with raw damage through EtD, but overall the Legend lacks any real utility beyond that (though Mallyx is my personal favorite and is always on my bar).

Shiro’s Daggers add a good deal of spike damage and serves as additional utility through evades and gap closers. Impossible Odds is an amazing skill, but I found that it often got overshadowed in most fights by external sources of Quickness. Jade Winds does okay damage, though the 3 second lock may be very worthwhile in some fights.

Thus, I can see Glint being the primarily Legend for both its passive and active effects while the second slot is swapped based on what you need for the encounter.

@OP, you should really play the warrior before saying all these things.

NikeEU.7690:

Photinous.4628:

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Nope, Glint/Shiro will be the default in PvE with Glint/Ventari for times you need the projectile bubble. Glint has some very interesting PvE interactions that you’ll just have to wait for our guide to come out to hear more about. =)

Interesting.. I believe Knox had a post not too long ago stating Shiro/Mallyx sits around 19k DPS so I’m certainly interested to see how Shiro/Glint will exceed that without embrace the darkness.

Photinous.4628:

NikeEU.7690:

Photinous.4628:

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Nope, Glint/Shiro will be the default in PvE with Glint/Ventari for times you need the projectile bubble. Glint has some very interesting PvE interactions that you’ll just have to wait for our guide to come out to hear more about. =)

Interesting.. I believe Knox had a post not too long ago stating Shiro/Mallyx sits around 19k DPS so I’m certainly interested to see how Shiro/Glint will exceed that without embrace the darkness.

I think it might have to do with group dps as oppose to personal dps. Switching to Shiro gives you 50 energy on legend swap which equates to 9s quickness uptime every 10s. If you ate 20% boon buff food you could get roughly 100% quickness uptime for 45 energy, less with even more boon duration e.g. runes.

Whilst Glint’s role probably has something to do with the f2 passive (50% boon duration) which can be a massive boost when other classes cast boons e.g. thief vigor turns from 10 to 15s. That’s why I think Glint is too valuable, the f2 passive is really strong and synergises with classes which stack boons. Heck, PS Warriors might be able to run full scholars if a Rev is in the party, I think the dps gained from that will go a long way to off set personal dps loss. Just my thoughts.

Terra.8571:

Revenant dps didn’t feel as high as Warrior or Range to me, and that was with the 10 might stacks. If all those 3 classes had the same might stacks, Rev would not be top.

I do acknowledge Rev’s provide lots of boons, but they will never displace a Phalanx warrior for might sharing solely because you can’t get more than a dozen might stacks shared (you can get 25 on yourself, not for whole group though). As such, you’d need 2 Rev’s for 1 phalanx war. Furthermore, you don;t really need more than one source for fury, regen or protection, so I doubt you’d see more than 1 rev in a dungeon party as part of the meta.

As for crit chance, even with fury, most classes in full zerk sit at 50% crit chance. Add % from food and buffs, they’re still only 80-85%. Spotter and discipline will take them to 100 and don;t forget some bosses lower crit chance. I don;t see why a Rev will displace a Ranger, when you can still take both (and get even more crit dmg from frost spirit).

The main class that should be fearing Rev’s are Guardian’s, Rev’s have better projectile blocks, more boons, possibly more healing (depends where Ventari ends up) and similar dps. Guardian’s best counter is their access to Aegis, but as DH hasn’t improved there PvE that much, Rev’s are better placed. Right now, I see 2 eles, 1 phalanx war, 1 chrono, 1 rev as possible meta.

With regards to your original concerns, I actually think the current upkeep costs are fine for 1 big reason. If you have the upkeeps on, you seriously hurt energy regen to the point that you cannot keep 5 upkeep points and do much more than auto attack. Also, not stance switching wastes access to a free second heal, 50 energy and w/e utilities/ elites you have.

This couldn’t be more wrong. The only classes that can even touch Rev on damage are Ele and Engi. Comparing a Rev’s damage to a Guardian is like comparing an NFL player to a High schooler. I still don’t see Rev’s flat out replacing other classes, but they will fit into the meta wonderfully. I think it’s also great having 2 Revs in your party. 1 Rev runs Fury , Might and the other runs Protection and those are some serious boons ,but it doesn’t really invalidate what other classes bring. Just because we give 100% Fury doesn’t mean that are party benefits from Roiling Mists cause they don’t. They still get 20% not 40%. So They can always benefit from other classes Prec buffs. Sure we don’t need them ,but everyone else does. Just like everyone else needs the Might from Ele and War because we don’t stack it as well as them we just give a nice base of 6-7.

Again though if you think Ranger or Warrior was doing more damage then your Rev then you weren’t playing it right. This classes damage is down right disgusting.

From my experience with the Rev I’ve seen the highest potential personal AND party DPS through Shrio/Glint. If the dungeon party is of solid make up aka an Ele and PS War my rotation if you will plays out like so.
Weapons Sword/Axe/Hammer
1. Start out in Glint with Facet of Darkness/Strength/Elements up.
2. If Might stacking is solid I will consume Facet of Strength right off the bat for an instant 20 stacks of Vuln on up to 5 targets.
3. I will then consume Facet of Elements for some AoE damage and Weakness application.
4. If the situation permits I will use use Facet of Chaos active in order to give my party quickness.
5. I will generally use Frigid Blitz on cd while in Glint. I use Unrelenting Assault only in Glint and only if I’m not personally at 25 Stacks of Might or If the Evade is needed.
6. I will then pop Facet of Nature active to further increase the boon duration of applied boons so they last while I switch into Shiro(which doesn’t really matter with an Ele and War in the group cause Fury and Might won’t drop off anyway)
7. Switch to Shiro pop Jade Daggers for some extra DPS if you want and then IO + Auto Attack until energy is drained at which point Legend swap is off CD.
8. Switch back to Glint and rinse and repeat.

If the group is not optimal I will use my Facet actives a bit more sparingly. For instance I won’t consume Strength if targets are at 25 Vuln stacks. I will always use Facet of Elements on cd as it provides a nice boost to damage and applies AoE weakness which helps the party mitigate damage. I generally also use Facet of Chaos active on cd for the AoE Party Quickness.

Using this rotation or priority does far more damage then I can do on any of my other classes (Thief, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger). The crazy part is it still does more then them without being min/maxed. My jewelry had Cele gems in it for all of the Beta and I still pulled insane DPS.

Griffith.7238:

4. If the situation permits I will use use Facet of Chaos active in order to give my party quickness.

How is it that you’re getting aoe quickness from Facet of Chaos? If I’m reading it right, it gives aoe super speed and not quickness. Without this secret quickness source, Mallyx and embrace the darkness should give more DPS than Glint.

Photinous.4628:

Griffith.7238:

4. If the situation permits I will use use Facet of Chaos active in order to give my party quickness.

How is it that you’re getting aoe quickness from Facet of Chaos? If I’m reading it right, it gives aoe super speed and not quickness. Without this secret quickness source, Mallyx and embrace the darkness should give more DPS than Glint.

In a perfect world Mallyx would give more personal DPS. Unfortunately most scenarios are less then perfect and it is not just about personal DPS. In order for Mallyx to give you more DPS then Glint you would need to be at perma 25 stacks of Might with perma fury. Sure other classes can do this ,but in the event that they don’t Mallyx ceases to be the best option. With Glint you are getting way more group Utility and in a lot of cases sacrificing next to nothing. I don’t have the math in front of me ,but we are dealing in very small differences. With Mallyx you get 10% stat boost that is it. With Glint you get Facet of Elements active which is a huge boost to DPS as it doesn’t stop you from using AA as well as damage mitigation via weakness. You get a 15 sec, 5 target 20 Vuln attack with Facet of Strength active which again other classes can provide ,but few as fast or as often as that ability. Being able to put every target at 20 Vuln stacks instantly upon engaging them that can be further built upon is a big deal. You get a stun break something Mallyx sorely lacks. You lose all DPS when you are CC’d. Both Heals are good but Facet of Light definitely pulls out on top with its 0-100% capability as well as essentially being an invuln.

Needless to say you can see where this is going. Glint not only does wonders for your own damage ,but increases your parties as well which is far better then a slight increase in your own personal DPS. Even in a perfect group I can’t justify using Mallyx over Glint for some nudge of extra DPS at the cost of a ton of group Utility.

and if the meta changes, then it changes. the classes that are meta have been since FOREVER. i’ll be glad that theres some change.

Warrior does more cleave damage + banners + 25 might. Ele provides fury with fire fields.
Guardian does Aegis, thief stealth.

Right now the dungeon meta does not need any defensive tradeoffs like Jalis, which, despite you saying the revenant doesn’t have to sacrifice anything, actually means getting rid of Shiro. Which I’m sure you know is a huge tradeoff. Same deal with the Pony legend, changing legends and casting that tablet is all wasted dps.

NikeEU.7690:

Photinous.4628:

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Nope, Glint/Shiro will be the default in PvE with Glint/Ventari for times you need the projectile bubble. Glint has some very interesting PvE interactions that you’ll just have to wait for our guide to come out to hear more about. =)

can’t wait!

zebbers.6139:

Same deal with the Pony legend

Pony Legend

PONY LEGEND

I love you

Griffith.7238:

Terra.8571:

Revenant dps didn’t feel as high as Warrior or Range to me, and that was with the 10 might stacks. If all those 3 classes had the same might stacks, Rev would not be top.

I do acknowledge Rev’s provide lots of boons, but they will never displace a Phalanx warrior for might sharing solely because you can’t get more than a dozen might stacks shared (you can get 25 on yourself, not for whole group though). As such, you’d need 2 Rev’s for 1 phalanx war. Furthermore, you don;t really need more than one source for fury, regen or protection, so I doubt you’d see more than 1 rev in a dungeon party as part of the meta.

As for crit chance, even with fury, most classes in full zerk sit at 50% crit chance. Add % from food and buffs, they’re still only 80-85%. Spotter and discipline will take them to 100 and don;t forget some bosses lower crit chance. I don;t see why a Rev will displace a Ranger, when you can still take both (and get even more crit dmg from frost spirit).

The main class that should be fearing Rev’s are Guardian’s, Rev’s have better projectile blocks, more boons, possibly more healing (depends where Ventari ends up) and similar dps. Guardian’s best counter is their access to Aegis, but as DH hasn’t improved there PvE that much, Rev’s are better placed. Right now, I see 2 eles, 1 phalanx war, 1 chrono, 1 rev as possible meta.

With regards to your original concerns, I actually think the current upkeep costs are fine for 1 big reason. If you have the upkeeps on, you seriously hurt energy regen to the point that you cannot keep 5 upkeep points and do much more than auto attack. Also, not stance switching wastes access to a free second heal, 50 energy and w/e utilities/ elites you have.

This couldn’t be more wrong. The only classes that can even touch Rev on damage are Ele and Engi. Comparing a Rev’s damage to a Guardian is like comparing an NFL player to a High schooler. I still don’t see Rev’s flat out replacing other classes, but they will fit into the meta wonderfully. I think it’s also great having 2 Revs in your party. 1 Rev runs Fury , Might and the other runs Protection and those are some serious boons ,but it doesn’t really invalidate what other classes bring. Just because we give 100% Fury doesn’t mean that are party benefits from Roiling Mists cause they don’t. They still get 20% not 40%. So They can always benefit from other classes Prec buffs. Sure we don’t need them ,but everyone else does. Just like everyone else needs the Might from Ele and War because we don’t stack it as well as them we just give a nice base of 6-7.

Again though if you think Ranger or Warrior was doing more damage then your Rev then you weren’t playing it right. This classes damage is down right disgusting.

Group dps =/= Personal dps. If you look at Rev’s, most of there dps comes from sword AA combined with IO. With roughly 40-45% uptime, this can make Rev’s personal dps pretty decent and just under Eles/ Condi engineers (Knox had a good post/ graph showing this). But that’s because of quickness, that same quickness will go to the whole party. A PS war or thief with the same might stacks, vuln on boss, fury AND that quickness, will do more dps than the Rev because they have more damage modifiers.

Griffith.7238:

Using this rotation or priority does far more damage then I can do on any of my other classes (Thief, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger). The crazy part is it still does more then them without being min/maxed. My jewelry had Cele gems in it for all of the Beta and I still pulled insane DPS.

Again, if you were a Thief or War in a party with a Rev, their dps will be higher. I’m not sure about Ranger or Guard but losing 10-15% dps in gear because you only had exo’s on (assuming the other party members had ascended trinkets/ weapons and exo armor which is pretty standard these days) then I doubt you were out dpsing anyone in that particular group – obviously similarly geared would be different but you imply you were out dpsing everyone.

Don;t get me wrong, Shiro’s IO is amazing and glint’s utility (esp boon duration) is why I have constantly said this will likely be meta. Furthermore, your dps rotation in PvE was pretty similar to mine (i.e. only AA + IO in Shiro, rest in Glint).

Shiro is basically useless if you have a guardian or a mesmer who can provide quickness. Maybe the heal is some extra damage but that’s it, impossible odds is just too costly to be spammed, I don’t feel like it’s something you can rely on. And I just read somewhere you cast enchanted daggers and then swap shiro for something else so…yeah.

Terra.8571:

Group dps =/= Personal dps. If you look at Rev’s, most of there dps comes from sword AA combined with IO. With roughly 40-45% uptime, this can make Rev’s personal dps pretty decent and just under Eles/ Condi engineers (Knox had a good post/ graph showing this). But that’s because of quickness, that same quickness will go to the whole party. A PS war or thief with the same might stacks, vuln on boss, fury AND that quickness, will do more dps than the Rev because they have more damage modifiers.

Again, if you were a Thief or War in a party with a Rev, their dps will be higher. I’m not sure about Ranger or Guard but losing 10-15% dps in gear because you only had exo’s on (assuming the other party members had ascended trinkets/ weapons and exo armor which is pretty standard these days) then I doubt you were out dpsing anyone in that particular group – obviously similarly geared would be different but you imply you were out dpsing everyone.

Don;t get me wrong, Shiro’s IO is amazing and glint’s utility (esp boon duration) is why I have constantly said this will likely be meta. Furthermore, your dps rotation in PvE was pretty similar to mine (i.e. only AA + IO in Shiro, rest in Glint).

I wasn’t implying that I was out DPSing everyone in my party at a given moment what I was implying that in their same gear I WOULD out DPS them. This would be true for the 4 classes I play a.k.a Warrior/Guardian/Thief/Ranger. How are you going to point out Knox’s post and then say that Thief and War do more damage when his post points to the contrary. Based off his data alone the only classes that can beat Rev in their current state are Ele and Engi.

You are talking about damage modifiers as if they are the be all end all. You are forgetting the base damage of Sword AA. We get plenty of damage modifiers on the Rev especially after the change to Rapid Lacerations to be damage instead of %attack speed. Just because a Warrior or Thief have more %damage doesn’t mean they do more damage then the Rev. It would mean they would do more damage then the Rev IF they were using the same abilities ,but obviously this isn’t the case. A Thief’s basic single target rotation is CnD, Backstab, 1 1/3 AA chain rinse and repeat until sub 20. You don’t need math to see that that doesn’t put out what the Rev can with just AA chain simply look at the numbers on the screen and the rate at which they pop up. Just the three AA attacks from Rev sword would produce more damage then that rotation in a fraction of the time and this isn’t even including the Life Siphon the Rev provides which is another underestimated amount of damage that you get for free.

So I wasn’t trying to say that I was topping DPS with my cele jewels ,but just that I easily would have been if I was min/maxed. I was also probably topping a lot of the classes even in that gear. Knox’s math shows where Rev lies in terms of damage and it is above Ranger/Warrior/Thief/and Guardian.

at least not master of condition removal trade.

Griffith.7238:

Terra.8571:

Group dps =/= Personal dps. If you look at Rev’s, most of there dps comes from sword AA combined with IO. With roughly 40-45% uptime, this can make Rev’s personal dps pretty decent and just under Eles/ Condi engineers (Knox had a good post/ graph showing this). But that’s because of quickness, that same quickness will go to the whole party. A PS war or thief with the same might stacks, vuln on boss, fury AND that quickness, will do more dps than the Rev because they have more damage modifiers.

Again, if you were a Thief or War in a party with a Rev, their dps will be higher. I’m not sure about Ranger or Guard but losing 10-15% dps in gear because you only had exo’s on (assuming the other party members had ascended trinkets/ weapons and exo armor which is pretty standard these days) then I doubt you were out dpsing anyone in that particular group – obviously similarly geared would be different but you imply you were out dpsing everyone.

Don;t get me wrong, Shiro’s IO is amazing and glint’s utility (esp boon duration) is why I have constantly said this will likely be meta. Furthermore, your dps rotation in PvE was pretty similar to mine (i.e. only AA + IO in Shiro, rest in Glint).

I wasn’t implying that I was out DPSing everyone in my party at a given moment what I was implying that in their same gear I WOULD out DPS them. This would be true for the 4 classes I play a.k.a Warrior/Guardian/Thief/Ranger. How are you going to point out Knox’s post and then say that Thief and War do more damage when his post points to the contrary. Based off his data alone the only classes that can beat Rev in their current state are Ele and Engi.

You are talking about damage modifiers as if they are the be all end all. You are forgetting the base damage of Sword AA. We get plenty of damage modifiers on the Rev especially after the change to Rapid Lacerations to be damage instead of %attack speed. Just because a Warrior or Thief have more %damage doesn’t mean they do more damage then the Rev. It would mean they would do more damage then the Rev IF they were using the same abilities ,but obviously this isn’t the case. A Thief’s basic single target rotation is CnD, Backstab, 1 1/3 AA chain rinse and repeat until sub 20. You don’t need math to see that that doesn’t put out what the Rev can with just AA chain simply look at the numbers on the screen and the rate at which they pop up. Just the three AA attacks from Rev sword would produce more damage then that rotation in a fraction of the time and this isn’t even including the Life Siphon the Rev provides which is another underestimated amount of damage that you get for free.

So I wasn’t trying to say that I was topping DPS with my cele jewels ,but just that I easily would have been if I was min/maxed. I was also probably topping a lot of the classes even in that gear. Knox’s math shows where Rev lies in terms of damage and it is above Ranger/Warrior/Thief/and Guardian.

Lol, for the life of me, I though IO was AOE quickness, but then I saw a video where it wasn’t being spread. I just checked the wiki again and it is indeed only for yourself! That changes everything, what I was getting at was a warrior’s dps would be higher than a rev if they had the same quickness uptime, but as IO doesn;t spread that quickness, ignore what I said.

Terra.8571:

Griffith.7238:

Terra.8571:

Group dps =/= Personal dps. If you look at Rev’s, most of there dps comes from sword AA combined with IO. With roughly 40-45% uptime, this can make Rev’s personal dps pretty decent and just under Eles/ Condi engineers (Knox had a good post/ graph showing this). But that’s because of quickness, that same quickness will go to the whole party. A PS war or thief with the same might stacks, vuln on boss, fury AND that quickness, will do more dps than the Rev because they have more damage modifiers.

Again, if you were a Thief or War in a party with a Rev, their dps will be higher. I’m not sure about Ranger or Guard but losing 10-15% dps in gear because you only had exo’s on (assuming the other party members had ascended trinkets/ weapons and exo armor which is pretty standard these days) then I doubt you were out dpsing anyone in that particular group – obviously similarly geared would be different but you imply you were out dpsing everyone.

Don;t get me wrong, Shiro’s IO is amazing and glint’s utility (esp boon duration) is why I have constantly said this will likely be meta. Furthermore, your dps rotation in PvE was pretty similar to mine (i.e. only AA + IO in Shiro, rest in Glint).

I wasn’t implying that I was out DPSing everyone in my party at a given moment what I was implying that in their same gear I WOULD out DPS them. This would be true for the 4 classes I play a.k.a Warrior/Guardian/Thief/Ranger. How are you going to point out Knox’s post and then say that Thief and War do more damage when his post points to the contrary. Based off his data alone the only classes that can beat Rev in their current state are Ele and Engi.

You are talking about damage modifiers as if they are the be all end all. You are forgetting the base damage of Sword AA. We get plenty of damage modifiers on the Rev especially after the change to Rapid Lacerations to be damage instead of %attack speed. Just because a Warrior or Thief have more %damage doesn’t mean they do more damage then the Rev. It would mean they would do more damage then the Rev IF they were using the same abilities ,but obviously this isn’t the case. A Thief’s basic single target rotation is CnD, Backstab, 1 1/3 AA chain rinse and repeat until sub 20. You don’t need math to see that that doesn’t put out what the Rev can with just AA chain simply look at the numbers on the screen and the rate at which they pop up. Just the three AA attacks from Rev sword would produce more damage then that rotation in a fraction of the time and this isn’t even including the Life Siphon the Rev provides which is another underestimated amount of damage that you get for free.

So I wasn’t trying to say that I was topping DPS with my cele jewels ,but just that I easily would have been if I was min/maxed. I was also probably topping a lot of the classes even in that gear. Knox’s math shows where Rev lies in terms of damage and it is above Ranger/Warrior/Thief/and Guardian.

Lol, for the life of me, I though IO was AOE quickness, but then I saw a video where it wasn’t being spread. I just checked the wiki again and it is indeed only for yourself! That changes everything, what I was getting at was a warrior’s dps would be higher than a rev if they had the same quickness uptime, but as IO doesn;t spread that quickness, ignore what I said.

LoL its ok I thought Facet of Chaos active was giving AoE quickness ,but it’s just Superspeed. I still think it does lol at least it seemed like it unless other people in my group were just popping TW or FMW when I happened to use it. I’ll check for sure next BWE.

Terra.8571:

Photinous.4628:

NikeEU.7690:

Photinous.4628:

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Nope, Glint/Shiro will be the default in PvE with Glint/Ventari for times you need the projectile bubble. Glint has some very interesting PvE interactions that you’ll just have to wait for our guide to come out to hear more about. =)

Interesting.. I believe Knox had a post not too long ago stating Shiro/Mallyx sits around 19k DPS so I’m certainly interested to see how Shiro/Glint will exceed that without embrace the darkness.

I think it might have to do with group dps as oppose to personal dps. Switching to Shiro gives you 50 energy on legend swap which equates to 9s quickness uptime every 10s. If you ate 20% boon buff food you could get roughly 100% quickness uptime for 45 energy, less with even more boon duration e.g. runes.

Whilst Glint’s role probably has something to do with the f2 passive (50% boon duration) which can be a massive boost when other classes cast boons e.g. thief vigor turns from 10 to 15s. That’s why I think Glint is too valuable, the f2 passive is really strong and synergises with classes which stack boons. Heck, PS Warriors might be able to run full scholars if a Rev is in the party, I think the dps gained from that will go a long way to off set personal dps loss. Just my thoughts.

You can run F2 facet without running the Glint legend. I think it has more to do with upkeep of lesser-used combat boons like swiftness, protection, and regen to buff up traits like Warrior’s Empowered and Guardian’s Power of the Virtuous as well as the Rev’s own Elder Power.

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Shiro is basically useless if you have a guardian or a mesmer who can provide quickness. Maybe the heal is some extra damage but that’s it, impossible odds is just too costly to be spammed, I don’t feel like it’s something you can rely on. And I just read somewhere you cast enchanted daggers and then swap shiro for something else so…yeah.

Don’t neglect the Shiro heal. It’s an extra 5400 spike.

Think about it this way. The Revenant’s core legends are all about being the purest form of their roles. Vantari heals and cleanses. That’s all it does. Mallyx will only do condi damage. ect.

Now the Revenant is unique in that it can (kinda) dual spec between two different roles. You can tank and heal if you run Jarlis and Ventari with Nomad gear. That can be very powerful and it is the main reason it feels like a jack of all trades class.

Since the Revenant can switch between their legends and weapons so easily it is able to switch between two different rolls at the drop of a hat while the other professions can’t. That, to me, makes them unique.

Tritone.1395:

Think about it this way. The Revenant’s core legends are all about being the purest form of their roles. Vantari heals and cleanses. That’s all it does. Mallyx will only do condi damage. ect.

Now the Revenant is unique in that it can (kinda) dual spec between two different roles. You can tank and heal if you run Jarlis and Ventari with Nomad gear. That can be very powerful and it is the main reason it feels like a jack of all trades class.

Since the Revenant can switch between their legends and weapons so easily it is able to switch between two different rolls at the drop of a hat while the other professions can’t. That, to me, makes them unique.

yup. also the dev really make a great job in balance, since the Revenant is almost really good in every aspect but it’s not stepping on the other profession’s same role, just complements it (so actually you won’t swap a guardian for a rev, but you want them both)
That’s the coolest thing

Gaaroth.2567:

Tritone.1395:

Think about it this way. The Revenant’s core legends are all about being the purest form of their roles. Vantari heals and cleanses. That’s all it does. Mallyx will only do condi damage. ect.

Now the Revenant is unique in that it can (kinda) dual spec between two different roles. You can tank and heal if you run Jarlis and Ventari with Nomad gear. That can be very powerful and it is the main reason it feels like a jack of all trades class.

Since the Revenant can switch between their legends and weapons so easily it is able to switch between two different rolls at the drop of a hat while the other professions can’t. That, to me, makes them unique.

yup. also the dev really make a great job in balance, since the Revenant is almost really good in every aspect but it’s not stepping on the other profession’s same role, just complements it (so actually you won’t swap a guardian for a rev, but you want them both)
That’s the coolest thing

They’re also pretty well balanced in a sense that if they decide to specialize in something, they will be lacking something else. A shiro/glint rev is gonna be pretty good for damage, but as many pointed out it will lack condition cleanses. In my case I run mallyx/glint so conditions are literally never a problem, but I lack chasing potential to finish off enemies. Or a jalis/ventari rev is likely to miss damage, etc.

Replace “Revenant” with “Elementalist” in OP post.
Ele can do everything Revenant can + more damage + more condi cleanse even when sleeping + Ice Bow.
Basically Ele is a Revenant with 4 legends equipped.

Not convinced? ICE BOW.

/thread.

NikeEU.7690:

Photinous.4628:

Shiro/Mallyx has the biggest DPS output, I believe this will be the PvE meta. Herald is only useful if your group lacks a PS warrior and ele/ranger, in my opinion, but you’re giving up a lot of damage by staying in glint.

Nope, Glint/Shiro will be the default in PvE with Glint/Ventari for times you need the projectile bubble. Glint has some very interesting PvE interactions that you’ll just have to wait for our guide to come out to hear more about. =)

IMO That’s not only in PvE but also PvP and even WvW builds do get a ton of benefits out of running herald, even condition builds get a total utility and damage advantage out of running glint, the Heal just makes the weakness to conditions sort of trivial, as if you get bursted down and then just pop the heal the whole damage gets you up also the Shield is by far supperior at least in PvP to offhand sword, and that’s what really nothers me why make Herald the Elite Specialization if it’s the greatest asset Revenant has access to.

The rest of the classes are getting elite specs, refreshing interest in them as well, so I don’t think its going to be as completely one-sided as you think it will be.

Morfedel.4165:

The rest of the classes are getting elite specs, refreshing interest in them as well, so I don’t think its going to be as completely one-sided as you think it will be.

“Tempest here, I’d like a word in this dark alley….”

Warriors will always be wanted for no other thing than banners are yet another offensive “boon” that no other class can touch. And they are very powerful.

That being said, one Warrior versus several in every party is a needed change for the dungeon PvE meta. It has nothing to do with just Revenant. Think about new Mesmer/Chrono too.

Honestly though, #1 fix to do is Ele and Frost Bow and that’s where the focus needs to go.

Artaz.3819:

Warriors will always be wanted for no other thing than banners are yet another offensive “boon” that no other class can touch. And they are very powerful.

That being said, one Warrior versus several in every party is a needed change for the dungeon PvE meta. It has nothing to do with just Revenant. Think about new Mesmer/Chrono too.

Honestly though, #1 fix to do is Ele and Frost Bow and that’s where the focus needs to go.

The whole culprit is not frostbow itself, but how the damage absurdly skyrockets on large hitboxes or by using unintended linecasting to compress them, also making deep freeze such a strong CC option is sort of a culprit too, even without frostbow Ele will be picked because of how strong Staff Ele is, how good it is to have water fields on demand, the absurdly good support to damage range glyph of storms has and the fury uptime persisting flame brings, ele won’t be leaving the dungeon meta anytime soon. If anything the 2nd ele will be replaced by a similarly strong DPS spec, and that’s it and no e-spec has yet to offer said options, the only spec that brings something close is condition engineer, other ele or revenant. As for Warrior a single PS warrior can cap without problem might for the whole party.

Also IMO fractals will substitute dungeons, and I hope the revamp to rewards, the masteries, the cap increase will make sure of that, and also I hope they release new maps for fractals, at least lets say 3 or 4 in the next 1-2 years span, plus raids, Nike and the guys from not only DnT but those interested in hardcore PvE content suggested making party wide buffing affect 10 people instead of 5 and that would actually make a decent change, specially for raid content, some people said it would unbalance WvW but honestly, GWEN will reign forever supreme even with e-specs so it wouldn’t really change much there, if anything it would make room in zergs for other roles that have yet to be discovered or have been dropped off in favor of the dominant playstyle that is tied to the 5 man buffing.

For Revenant it really will just fit whatever function your party is missing, raw DPS? camp Shiro/Malyx upkeep while sipping up coffee, need might? Herald up and mightbot like a boss, no Guard? Upkeep protection and Block nasty projectiles with ventari, Need more crits? Upkeep fury. Need conditions for Wurm? Malyx and Herald say Hello… Versatility is top on Revenant, it does great in a lot of aspects and it has come a long way from it’s first iteration, it certainly is not the best in something, but it’s just as good as engi in every aspect or game mode, excepting maybe in a condition damage build.

apharma.3741:

Morfedel.4165:

The rest of the classes are getting elite specs, refreshing interest in them as well, so I don’t think its going to be as completely one-sided as you think it will be.

“Tempest here, I’d like a word in this dark alley….”

I didn’t say ALL of them were as worthy, I was just saying that there are more new options out there than just revenant.

Every supporter has a function now.

Herald is the master of traditional boons, plus drarf stance def bonus and demon stance aoe resistance. Ventari has good support too.
Guardian is the only class with access to Aegis and now can shield everyone behind the new f3.
Tempest has easy access to auras and aoe heal/condi cleanse.
Thief/Chronomancer/Scrapper have a lot of stealth.
Thief and Reaper have many debuffs.
Warrior has banners.
Druid will probabably be support oriented, with Ranger alrerady providing unique buffs with spirits.

A party with all the classes is probably the strongest. Unfortunately boon limit is 5 and not 9-10.