Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Fizzee.1762

Fizzee.1762

Q:

I main an Elemantalist and usually run in groups of 20-25 or in zergs and the Ele has a clearly defined role. I am backline, provide AoE DPS, Heals and CC and if caught by focus party, I use escapes to get safe.

The Revenant in its current iteration lacks this clearly defined role.
I’ve tried all the Legendaries and weapons and found that the following feels “best” but still lacking.

Janis (for the stability and heal)
Shiro (for the speed and “blink”)

Hammer (for the good AoE deeps and a bit of range)
Staff (for the heal, defence and 5 skill)

It feels like I should be a hit and run style character, blink in, use staff 5 for lots of damage, riposting shadow out and ranged deeps until CDs ready for round 2…

But here’s the thing:

Survivability is bad. It seems on par with engi, which means going into the blob is death.
Ranged DPS is bad. Its too low to stay out in backline and DPS
Support is bad. The stability road is not quick enough or last long enough to be a game changer. The condition theft from Mallyx = death, The ventari tablet is clunky and cannot be moved often enough for the fast moving WvW environment. The rift smash pull is TINY, so completely useless. The displacement field of Mallyx is bested by every other line and cc due to the condis you get and the fact you leap to it.

So I ask,
what does the Revenant bring to the table that cannot be achieved by exisiting meta classes, and where does it fit in the WvW environment?

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

if Jalis gets fixed Revanant can become very useful in the blob. Atm just no.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Pridedemon.3041

Pridedemon.3041

I did try revenant for an hour or so and yes i don’t believe it outshines in some specific roles but i think its too early, no one has had enough time yet to test different builds and its still in BETA so most skills are bound to change/rebalance.

I tried sword/axe build and with shiro legend it has extremely high dps potential with almost perma quickness however its totally glass canon and isn’t recommended for wvw/structured pvp at all.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Rain.9213

Rain.9213

Yeah pretty much entering the blob guarantees you die or you blow most of your cooldowns trying to get out alive. Best thing for Revenant right now is to provide ranged damage with hammer. It’s actually really good for zerg fights considering how hard each aoe skill hits and that its auto attack penetrates.

I only went in for the kill when I saw smaller 2-3 person groups get split off and my buddies and I hunted them down.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

we need reflects, a reliable source of protection/invuln (Jalis elite is not usable in wvw) and some serious cleave to be useful in the blob. Atm it’s ranged dps or ranged support.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

People are tihnking about revenant completely wrong here. At first I thought rev was supposed to be a frontliner because of the jallis stance and the fact that its a heavy. I was completely wrong. Its usefulness in WvW comes from its backline damage. Its insane. The hammer has very very strong numbers right now that outdamage ele and necro in terms of sustained damage.

The build I ran was bascially hammer with sword/axe, full assassins, scholars runes, devastation invocation retribution. Focusing on sitting in the back and basically spamming the s*** out of 2 since it hits harder than mighty blow, has a bigger radius, and a 2 second cooldown. Last night I consistently hit melee for 4-5k on crit with 25 might and ranged for +8k plus on some occasions with crit.

4 revenants spamming 2 and 5 on the frontline(5 on the backline as well possible to disrupt casters) along with pressure from the other skills does a ton of damage. Its way more damage than the consistent pressure of eles spamming staff 2 on a front line. Go try it out, and tell me what you think.

I also ran shiro/jallis and would use jallis to give stability and the elite buff to the frontline when they pushed in or came back and were taking heavy pressure, and would swap to shiro in case I got caught, so I could use the evade utility to escape. Also if the fight broke out into a more spread less zergy formation, where the blob starts to break, I’d just go in with sword/axe and would be okay getting a few casters here and there.

TLDR, screw revenant frontline, run full assasssins rev hammer backline and go ham.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Shiro Tegachii.5619

Shiro Tegachii.5619

those are my exect thoughts +100 to this post! UPVOTE IT
WvWvW is the 1 true endgame of this game those opinions of he’s are crucial for Anet to see

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

@SkylightMoon.1980
We are not thinking wrong, unless you are also wrong.
We are aware that Revenant is only a backliner atm, but that doesn’t mean it needs to stat this way. Classes should have the chance to run different roles. That’s GW2 philosophy.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

@SkylightMoon.1980
We are not thinking wrong, unless you are also wrong.
We are aware that Revenant is only a backliner atm, but that doesn’t mean it needs to stat this way. Classes should have the chance to run different roles. That’s GW2 philosophy.

No you’re wrong. Most classes in game only fit one role. They may have specs for many but because of distinct metas, they usually play one. Necros/eles, have their own role in wvw, guards/wars do, thieves/mes/rangers do. Rev may have a place for frontline at some point, who knows, but it seems to be an exceptionally goood backliner for now and i don’t see why to ask for more .

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kodiak.3281

Kodiak.3281

I also main an Elementalist in a largish (20-25+) group and I somewhat agree and disagree.

Playing Shiro/Jalis last night I found an amazing level of self survivability. Most cases I rarely even had to pop into Jalis to survive. A lot of it was based on Riposting Shadows which served as condition removal, evasion, stunbreak and restored 50 endurance. I mean holy !@#$ in a single button press. Impossible Odds also served as amazing mobility in combat because if I got into a bad position it was no problem could just pop that and zip on over with out of combat speed mobility. A lot of times as Revenant last test I’d get stuck in combat in the rear and be like “welp” and get run over by the enemy.

Damage wise Shiro’s heal actually added some pretty decent damage add. More than a few times I saw hits for 8k crit with a 2k crit follow up. The heal itself wasn’t as useful but I found healing to not really be an issue.

The problem was all of this really added nothing to the group. The “bomb” a Revenant delivers is pretty mediocre at best. Coalescence of Ruin is inconsistent at best (video coming later) and you really provide no boons, no damage add and no boosts to your allies. Shiro’s boosts are entirely for yourself. Now Jalis does have a few boosts but they’re either incredibly short duration (5s) or they’re ground based which is useless on the move and if you don’t move you’re dead.

Now this is largely specific to the Shiro/Jalis combo. Malyx and Corruption on the other hand have a lot going for a group. With boon removal (Spontaneous Destruction is 1200m range with hammer), condi absorption, resistance granting and a displacement field to protect backline it actually has a lot to offer at the cost of protecting ourselves and doing more damage.

Kodiak X – Blackgate

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kodiak.3281

Kodiak.3281

Also stats wise I did:

Berserker armor (hoelbrak)
Berserker hammer (strength, bloodlust) / staff (cleansing, energy)
Soldier neck, Cavalier ring, Knight ring, Knight earring, Berserker earring, Berserker back
(all Ascended)
Sharpening Stone
Lemongrass Soup

That gave me:
2552 Power (no Bloodlust, no Guard stacks)
2743 Armor
17702 HP (over 20k with Guard stacks)
39.66% crit rating
195% crit dmg (205% in combat due to Assassin’s Presence)
-60% condi duration

Spec wise I did
Devastation 1, 2, 1
Retribution 2, 3, 3
Invocation 3, 2, 2

Devastation is straight up damage add. Since I’m using 2h no point in the dual wield bonus and the extra might is pretty decent for added damage. Retribution is huge damage decreases with -10% for anything beyond 360, and -10% when I’m under 75% as well as Protection on disable and healing when struck works out really well for self regulated defenses that aren’t very micro’d. Invocation isn’t bad adding Fury which is great with Enchanted Daggers. Not 100% on Invigorating Flow but again it’s part of that passive healing/defense. I don’t have Fury up enough (or really need it) to make good use out of the 10% crit boost of Roiling Mists and with the extremely high energy costs of our utilities I find myself under 50 energy a lot to really take advantage of Charged Mists (pretty sure there’s an unlisted ICD however).

Worked great.

Kodiak X – Blackgate

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: KarlusDavius.1024

KarlusDavius.1024

@SkylightMoon.1980
We are not thinking wrong, unless you are also wrong.
We are aware that Revenant is only a backliner atm, but that doesn’t mean it needs to stat this way. Classes should have the chance to run different roles. That’s GW2 philosophy.

No you’re wrong. Most classes in game only fit one role. They may have specs for many but because of distinct metas, they usually play one. Necros/eles, have their own role in wvw, guards/wars do, thieves/mes/rangers do. Rev may have a place for frontline at some point, who knows, but it seems to be an exceptionally goood backliner for now and i don’t see why to ask for more .

Apologies, but you are the one who is “wrong”.

Necro now has melee option and is really strong at it.
Guardian how are ranged abilities with the bow.
Mesmer has some really good wells meaning in can tango with the blobs close range for some nice effects.

HoT is changing this archaic views that one class has one role. Revenant with its legends should be a shining example of this changing philosophy were seeing. However, it just has no synergy at the moment.

Jalis is god awful and clunky.
Shiro is looking good.
Malix is getting there.
Ventari needs a serious amount of work.
Energy and how the costs are allocated need reworking.
Traits need some serious synergy, they have zero.

The only reason Revenant is a good backlogging is bemuses, right now, thats all it can really do in WvW (in its current state). It sucks for most things.

If you think 4-5k is decent, try reaper in the middle of a blob with AA spam. Thats damage for you.

Whilst this is Beta for a reason, I was expecting more than just a mediocre backliner with zero other options.

PS. If your roaming, i highly recommend going full dire with mace/axe. Much fun.

Cmdr. Kiro Heimdahl
Warrior
Far Shiverpeaks

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Knox.8962

Knox.8962

Reaper damage is abysmal. It does even less damage than the Necro dagger does. The individual hits are strong, but they happen about once a week.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Reaper damage is abysmal. It does even less damage than the Necro dagger does. The individual hits are strong, but they happen about once a week.

Reaper’s main focus will be the shroud. That’s pretty amazing, I’m loving it.
But that’s off topic here.

I agree that Revenant needs to be able to go frontline, but not only for the sake of WvW. Revenant needs more survivability, expecially with Verdant Brink monsters. Some of them are scary.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Knox.8962

Knox.8962

Reaper shroud does less damage than the necro dagger too. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be neat with better numbers, but right now it is weak.

I haven’t found a real solid role for Rev in sPvP or WvW either. They can do a lot of different things, but not well enough to take over for the other people already filling those roles.

Rev can be pretty tanky, but lack the survival tools to live through focus fire like a bunker guardian or soldier/rifle engy has (Blocks, Invluns etc.)

They burst reasonably well in shiro if you go all in on damage, but they lack the mobility and surprise factor that you get from Thief and Mesmer. They are reasonably effective in more of a brawling type role, but not really better than a warrior or medi guard type character.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kodiak.3281

Kodiak.3281

Honestly I don’t get that lack survivability tools at all.

Riposting Shadows is insane. Just plainly, stupidly upfront insane. Removes any disabling condis. Gives you evade for duration (basically a dodge roll). Gives you a stun break. Then because all of that wasn’t enough it also gives you 50 endurance to do yet another dodge roll. Oh, and 35 energy so you can do it nearly 3 times in combat at 100 energy in a row. I found myself in the middle of energy zergs yesterday in T1 and survived entirely because of this skill np.

Also Impossible Odd’s superspeed is probably the second most thing that’s saved my life. Superspeed is basically out of combat Swiftness speed even in combat and even when crippled/chilled. It’s pretty kitten amazing for getting out of a bad spot to turn it on and get out of there.

Also with Staff being swappable, we can easily swap to staff and get access to a 2-3s block (Staff 3), an AOE heal/cleanse (Staff 4) and a 600m mobility skill (staff 5). Lotta defense there in a pinch if the Shiro skills can’t help you out.

Kodiak X – Blackgate

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: KarlusDavius.1024

KarlusDavius.1024

Yes but find yourself low on energy and your gone. There is far too much reliance on Shiro to escape.

Cmdr. Kiro Heimdahl
Warrior
Far Shiverpeaks

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Jalis should be able to tank, so that you can use shiro to damage and jalis to save yourself.

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Kodiak.3281

Kodiak.3281

Survivability in this game basically comes down to three factors:

1. Passive survivability/damage reduction. We get this a lot in Retribution with up to -20% damage taken at one time and Protection when we get CCd.

2. Mobility. Basically get the heck out of the damage coming. One could also probably include stability in this because it allows you to keep moving.

3. Tons of Healing. You see this on Elementalist and Guardian where they do a lot of relatively tiny heals (1000 here, 500 there, 1000 here or lots of little 100’s).

That said, we get a lot of these. We do get a few heals but not enough to really mention other than they’re a nice damage reduction when they proc. Jalis provides stability and a -50% damage taken for 5 seconds. The stability pulses could probably use a kick in the teeth, like instead of pulsing 1 stab of stability every second it instead did 2 stab every 2 seconds so that way you get more benefit from it while moving (and you’re never not moving).

We also get lots of mobility and clear with Shiro. That’s very powerful and it’s what makes Shiro very survivable even more so than Jalis. Honestly it’s so survivable I’ve started using Shiro/Malyx because it’s more reliable than the 1s of Stability I get from Jalis or the stun break on a 2s cast.

As for running out of Energy I find I’m fine long as I don’t ride the hell out of our stances. We regen around 5 energy a second meaning most of our abilities simply have a 7-10 second cool down on them which actually is really good when you think about it. But if you constantly sit in Impossible Odds or Darkness then yea that plus weapon moves are going to just wreck your energy bar.

Kodiak X – Blackgate

Revenant in WvW. What's its niche?

in Revenant

Posted by: Blackarps.1974

Blackarps.1974

Its pretty much a mix of warrior and guardian. Damage with some support. Inspiring Reinforcement first for stability to those just behind you and maybe one stack or so on yourself. Hammer out first for your small or big bombing. 5 and 3 are good to have whenever they are up. When you get close to the enemy zerg, pop both of the other Jalis utilities for damage (if you can, try to chain the commander or somebody without stab). Now most skills are on cooldown so swap legend and weapon to Shiro and staff. Staff 4 on empowers/rallies.

There are other things you can do such as open with Shiro and Phase Traversal to the melee train or backline and try to take someone out real quick but that’s less helpful to your zerg and can get you killed pretty quick.

In WvW, you want stability, healing, and decent damage. If you need to make yourself more tanky, do it and then try a rune that lets you stack might like hoelbrak.

Maguuma Guardian