Guild Wars 2

Actual changes
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eWstXzT4_9KG4Q4HifB-ZrCA-8tgBel0RaYnQlfdgtk/edit?usp=sharing

A 3.0 mod on a 4 sec cooldown is a bit too strong IMO. A 2.0~2.25 mod seems more balanced with this version of precision strike.

Also about dismantle fortification from what I’ve observed the control theme is in theory in the salvation line (momentary pacification/blinding truths) wouldn’t something with unblockable stay more in theme?

Other than that good work on deva/shiro.

Precision strike may end up a bit too strong, i agree. Thats something which honestly have to be tested, we have to keep in mind they nerfed auto just to move damage to 2 but 2.25 would be good too i believe. Hard to say honestly. I dont feel like i hit all that much for example right now but it also not something reliable so obviously im not landing all 3 hits everytime.

Dismantle fortification is atm a cc trait and tbh its hard to come up with anything else. One trait increases damage already and the other one heals. That doesnt leave much room for something else really. Unblockable is also covered in adept.. that could leave only one possibility – something to pain strike where you stun/immobilize foe when striking below 50%. If you have something else in mind feel free to share.

Added Mallyx, done for today.

Burtnik.5218:

Precision strike may end up a bit too strong, i agree. Thats something which honestly have to be tested, we have to keep in mind they nerfed auto just to move damage to 2 but 2.25 would be good too i believe. Hard to say honestly.

Dismantle fortification is atm a cc trait and tbh its hard to come up with anything else. One trait increases damage already and the other one heals. That doesnt leave much room for something else really. Unblockable is also covered in adept.. that could leave only one possibility – something to pain strike where you stun/immobilize foe when striking below 50%. If you have something else in mind feel free to share.

Added Mallyx, done for today.

How about daze/stun when you hit a blocking foe?

That goes against malicious trait and tbh.. i wouldnt want to face something like that when playing rev myself or another class. I want to be rewarded for blocking attack, not punished. Its something that would frustrate and upset players. Too much passive is not good for gameplay after all.

How about ignoring Stability on a big ICD? :^)

I actually don’t know what it could do. Maybe if a CC fails, it’ll CC them one more time. Still does what it does now, but it’ll actually work and could actually work on break bars.

I’ve no complaints/criticism about your mallyx/corruption changes, at all.

Malchior.5732:

How about ignoring Stability on a big ICD? :^)

I actually don’t know what it could do. Maybe if a CC fails, it’ll CC them one more time. Still does what it does now, but it’ll actually work and could actually work on break bars.

I was thinking about one trait, lore driven but it would be op. And that means immunity to blind. It would fill a utility role between damage, survival.

I was thinking about it ignoring protection.. or gain extra damage per boon on enemy like war https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Empowered but in the end it didnt made any sense at all to me.

Tried looking at increasing damage to stunned foes but we already have damage trait.. so meh once more. I was thinking about https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Body_Blow too but its condi oriented..

Then i looked at possibility of fast hands.. its cool and all but i am personally up for deleting weapon swap. For me weapon swap feels like QoL change as i tend to camp one set (thx to hammer).

Generally speaking what i have been considering is current mini version of power block (in list), immobilize below 50% hp, gaining quickness when cc a foe.

Now that i think about it..it could also reveal foes.

Overall, I like your changes.
I think maybe your version of Enchanted Daggers is a bit too much though. A 6.5k Heal with another big potential Heal might be a bit too much. Maybe a 4k-5k Heal or lowering the siphon a tad bit more.
I just don’t think it should out-do Jalis.

Aside from that, my only other criticism is in regards to Mallyx: we ain’t got any self-conditions anymore!
I like all the changes, but that functionality is still missing and relies on having team mates affected by conditions. Maybe we could have a trait like Master of Corruption that gives us self-conditions, but also some sort of benefit? Demonic Defiance comes to mind or maybe that EtD-only trait you were planning on (i.e. using demon skills now applies conditions on yourself, but EtD pulses Resistance on you).

Changes are pretty good so far though; hope you can share your thoughts for Jalis soon.

Daggers doesnt siphol heal. That would be definitely too much. I just left them for damage, thats about it. Atm this skill heal for 6,5k if all daggers are procced but keep in mind that we are affected by poison with basically no way to remove it.

Demonic defiance could definitely add self conditions but tbh.. i was never feeling that they are any good outside of the blind ofc. With the amount of reapers in pvp tho i wouldnt worry too much about conditions or reliance on allies in general..

As for the Jalis himself.. im thinking what to do with vengeful hmmers. I dont think they want to have 2 upkeep skills on one legend and i know i want rite to become an upkeep skill with increased “a bit” reduction to power damage (it also balance the elite skills itself – 2 upkeep, 2 on use). Overall i changed him to selfish legend for balance purposes. I feel that Glint and Ventari are enough of a support and spreading stability to allies is stepping on a guardian job.

6.5K heal on the daggers is a bit too much. I wouldn’t mind at all if they shaved the damage and the siphon a little bit in favour of more healing. I still like that element of the siphon and is fitting for the shiro stance. Maybe make it a 4k heal with 500 health per siphon

I feel like many of the suggestions you just made, such as Phase Traversal, Precision Strikes would be just fine if ANet ironed out the bugs. I agree with making Unrelenting Assault a single target burst.

With thing such as pets, turrets, minions and other AI it drastically reduces the Revenant’s effectiveness and makes it almost unusable in some fights. Not to mention that sometimes you end up in places you don’t want to because you hit another person you didn’t want to hit. It is just too random and spontaneous of a skill, you never know what you are going to get out of it.

If they would iron out the bugs it would be great too. 15% might be a little too strong. I’d say around a 5-10% damage increase. That more then offsets not having might but not by too much.

I disagree with your assessment on fury with Nefarious Momentum. If you want to take Invocation for Roiling Mists the whole traitline is pretty much fury based. You already get 5 seconds of fury when switching legends. So that is pretty much 50% upkeep on fury. Fierce Infusion, Incensed Response. Fine, I know what you are going to say they aren’t the greatest traits but you still have a 50% uptime on fury when you switch legends. But its not like Equilbrium and Invigorating Flow are exactly the best traits either. Not to mention you can always use runes of the pack which are a perfectly viable option for a Revenant. You can also get boon duration if you desire to make the fury last longer. Core Revenant outside of Unrelenting Assault doesn’t stack a lot of might. There are a lot of options

Not to mention improvements that should be made to Jalis/Ventari.

Burtnik.5218:

Daggers doesnt siphol heal. That would be definitely too much. I just left them for damage, thats about it. Atm this skill heal for 6,5k if all daggers are procced but keep in mind that we are affected by poison with basically no way to remove it.

Demonic defiance could definitely add self conditions but tbh.. i was never feeling that they are any good outside of the blind ofc. With the amount of reapers in pvp tho i wouldnt worry too much about conditions or reliance on allies in general..

As for the Jalis himself.. im thinking what to do with vengeful hmmers. I dont think they want to have 2 upkeep skills on one legend and i know i want rite to become an upkeep skill with increased “a bit” reduction to power damage (it also balance the elite skills itself – 2 upkeep, 2 on use). Overall i changed him to selfish legend for balance purposes. I feel that Glint and Ventari are enough of a support and spreading stability to allies is stepping on a guardian job.

Oh, no siphon? That’d be fine then. I thought you were making them heal for 6.5k + siphoning. That’d be crazy.

The reason I feel we need self-conditions is because the current Reapers and condition builds will cycle out at some point. It’s kinda reliant on what’s popular and also much less potentially useful in other areas. For example, assuming you can give yourself Blind, you now have an amazing skill at clearing out trash mobs or applying other conditions. Doesn’t have to be just the old Soft CC we used to have; they can be different.

I think it’d be good to have Jalis apply AoE Stability; it’s a job that kinda forces Guardians and this way you could have more classes that can do that job while also bringing different tools. Core Revenant in-general lacks team support, although that’s mostly because Ventari is just kinda lacking.

Speaking of which, Druid does the healer role so much better, but also buffs the team’s damage with multiple different effects. Ventari should do something more than just healing, otherwise I don’t think anyone will ever pick it in PvE.

EDIT @ killahmayne:

I think most of the Invocation line is kinda lacking actually. Sure, it has some decent ways to maintain Fury, but a lot of the traits force you to swap constantly instead of managing energy to have that Fury. The GMs, aside from Roiling Mists, are also really bad and difficult to manage.

Malchior.5732:

Speaking of which, Druid does the healer role so much better, but also buffs the team’s damage with multiple different effects. Ventari should do something more than just healing, otherwise I don’t think anyone will ever pick it in PvE.

That’s why on my version I focused on making Somewhat more reliable on healing more than 5 targets at a time. While we probably shouldn’t step in more than we currently can into offensive support. We can increase our defensive support to a point that we have the same usefulness as tempests. Our advantage would be more CC and a better potential at tanking at the same time allowing to slot another DPS instead.

Druid will probably have a spot granted because of its offensive support though in speed clear groups.

Malchior.5732:

Burtnik.5218:

Daggers doesnt siphol heal. That would be definitely too much. I just left them for damage, thats about it. Atm this skill heal for 6,5k if all daggers are procced but keep in mind that we are affected by poison with basically no way to remove it.

Demonic defiance could definitely add self conditions but tbh.. i was never feeling that they are any good outside of the blind ofc. With the amount of reapers in pvp tho i wouldnt worry too much about conditions or reliance on allies in general..

As for the Jalis himself.. im thinking what to do with vengeful hmmers. I dont think they want to have 2 upkeep skills on one legend and i know i want rite to become an upkeep skill with increased “a bit” reduction to power damage (it also balance the elite skills itself – 2 upkeep, 2 on use). Overall i changed him to selfish legend for balance purposes. I feel that Glint and Ventari are enough of a support and spreading stability to allies is stepping on a guardian job.

Oh, no siphon? That’d be fine then. I thought you were making them heal for 6.5k + siphoning. That’d be crazy.

The reason I feel we need self-conditions is because the current Reapers and condition builds will cycle out at some point. It’s kinda reliant on what’s popular and also much less potentially useful in other areas. For example, assuming you can give yourself Blind, you now have an amazing skill at clearing out trash mobs or applying other conditions. Doesn’t have to be just the old Soft CC we used to have; they can be different.

I think it’d be good to have Jalis apply AoE Stability; it’s a job that kinda forces Guardians and this way you could have more classes that can do that job while also bringing different tools. Core Revenant in-general lacks team support, although that’s mostly because Ventari is just kinda lacking.

Speaking of which, Druid does the healer role so much better, but also buffs the team’s damage with multiple different effects. Ventari should do something more than just healing, otherwise I don’t think anyone will ever pick it in PvE.

EDIT @ killahmayne:

I think most of the Invocation line is kinda lacking actually. Sure, it has some decent ways to maintain Fury, but a lot of the traits force you to swap constantly instead of managing energy to have that Fury. The GMs, aside from Roiling Mists, are also really bad and difficult to manage.

I agree that many of the traits are lacking in Invocation, Master doesn’t give you a whole lot of options to work with and Roiling Mists is the clear victor over the other choices. But a 7% damage increase, 40% crit chance from fury, access to a lot of fury and stunbreaks from switching legends (where revenants don’t have a lot of stunbreaks) make the trait line worth taking in many instances.

Malchior.5732:

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Actually condi rev imo can dish out some serious condi damage output, the problem is lack of coverage. It wont be a problem however with EtD as even power builds uses conditions like vul, cripple, blind, immobize whenever they like it or not.

As for aoe stability..i would personally give it warriors instead as atm they dont bring anything really. Let them have some nice things too. Problem with aoe stab in rev case is that you could go for glint/jalis and provide basically the most important boons (prot, stab, fury) so basically there is no reason to pick up guard at all.

I think Ventari was already explained. Given the fact that we can swap utility skills in combat i dont think we need something else on Ventari. The point is not to replace druids completely but to bring our healing support to an acceptable level where we can end up as more defensive alternative to druid. We also have better cc for breakbars. Druid should remain as king of support tho as that is his specialization after all.

killahmayne.9518:

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Shiro had completely different healing ability tho http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Meditation_of_the_Reaper

As for the “ironed out bugs” its Anet we talk about.. to this day melee hits can miss due to uneven terrain. Or the 3 years old immobilize bug..

UA part.. well.. thing is it received ~23% nerf with the last patch. Even with my +15% buff it wont recover all of it damage, even less so with removed might (what it is even doing here?)

You mentioned main issue with the invocation line btw. Its our profession line but it doesnt really bring anything else than fury. I made a “little” overhaul there to focus more on legend swapping and upkeep abilities.

Ignoring that however, you gain 5sec of fury only when you actually swap every 10sec which may not be optimal. I keep it often as stunbreak actually in Shiro/Jalis core build.
Fierce Infusion has 20cd (due to our weak heal nature more like 30) for few sec of fury and Incensed Response require you to be stunned and stunbreak for 10s (15s due to bug) fury on 10cd. Not really optimal way of gaining fury imo.

Also Shiro theme is actually all about ferocity and crits. Theres a reason why shiro armor in gw2 has rage rune after all or why we provide +150 ferocity buff.

Oh btw if anyone is curious about Cruel Repercussion (broken hammer trait);

Damage is increased for a short duration after invoking a legend. 3sec duration, 10%
or
Your next hit after a legend swap does 25% more damage

Cant decide but both really aims to eliminate one shots from hammer and bring in more healthy playstyle.

I prefer the former change to Cruel Repercussions personally, mostly because we don’t really have a lot of single big hits and don’t want to encourage more CoR nukes.

Burtnik.5218:

I think Ventari was already explained. Given the fact that we can swap utility skills in combat i dont think we need something else on Ventari. The point is not to replace druids completely but to bring our healing support to an acceptable level where we can end up as more defensive alternative to druid. We also have better cc for breakbars. Druid should remain as king of support tho as that is his specialization after all.

Exactly.

Damage is increased for a short duration after invoking a legend. 3sec duration, 10%
or
Your next hit after a legend swap does 25% more damage

Cant decide but both really aims to eliminate one shots from hammer and bring in more healthy playstyle.

The 10% one is less likely to generate QQ while actually giving a higher damage.

My thoughts, to get them on the proverbial record at least:

Devastation:

Ferocious Strikes: This change feels like it’s forcing you to use sword if you’re running Devastation, unless you’re using one of the niche purposes of the other adept traits.

Vicious Lacerations → Assassin’s Speed: I don’t think this is necessary. Core rev lacks a constant move speed boost, sure… but so does core mesmer and all guardians. Core rev does, however, have Impossible Odds, and pulsing Impossible Odds is an effective way of boosting your ability to get around. It’s a bit fiddlier than the others, sure, but I prefer a bit of fiddliness than having a trait that only provides a movement speed boost, when the only alternatives are a sword-specific trait and a PvP-oriented trait.

Malicious Reprisal: I think this change is just as likely to result in wasted procs. Possibly combine the two triggers and make it proc on a block when the target is under 50%?

Jade Echo, Nefarious Momentum: Agreed on both counts. I don’t think I’ve ever used Nefarious Momentum because stance skills aren’t exactly things you spam and the Might is… pretty pointless. As an additional source of Fury to go with Roiling Mists and the Ferocity buffs in Devastation, though, I’d consider it.

Dismantle Fortifications: If the current version is garbage, I don’t think this is going to be much better. Jade Winds isn’t exactly set up for interrupts, and running Shiro, it’s likely that your only fast interrupt is Grasping Shadow. I think the way Dismantle Fortifications is supposed to work is that if the target has only one stack of Stability, the control effect still goes through – if that’s not happening, then that needs to be fixed.

(As a comment here: Referring back to the source material, Shiro removed hexes and transferred conditions while under Impossible Odds. The current form of Impossible Odds probably isn’t suited for this, but one possibility could be to have a trait here that makes UA transfer conditions. That’d give the revenant more condition removal options (which if their DPS and sustain is going to be gutted, I think is justified) with a strong Shiro feel. Having such a trait in grandmaster would mean it’s competing with strong offensive traits, and having it linked to sword mainhand means there doesn’t need to be an adept trait so linked.)

Assassin’s Annihilation: Making it trigger off any attack would be a significant power boost, while also losing a bit of the feel of encouraging flanking attacks.

Shiro stance:

Enchanted Daggers: We’ve butted heads on this one before. Simply put, I don’t think this is supposed to be an emergency heal: emergency heal for Shiro is legendswap and then heal. Enchanted Daggers is supposed to be popped early to stop you from needing to hit the emergency heal, not something you rely on to save you from imminent downing. Sure, it can be awkward at times, but I’d rather keep it as a unique skill with counterplay and buff the revenant in other ways than to make it foolproof at the cost of losing something elsewhere (and with a competent balancing team, it will be at the cost of losing something elsewhere if the full heal becomes immediate. With a less competent team, we might get away with it for a season or two and and then get overnerfed as punishment).

Phase Traversal: No objections here. Making it instant cast would make Shiro (even) more stun-resistant, but that’s probably not a huge deal. I could see the argument that using it to escape hard CC would make it worth at least 30 energy, though.

Sword mainhand:

Autoattack: I’ve done some training in sword use, and thrust as an opener is actually not a bad move. You can usually get longer reach than a swing, it’s fast enough to potentially catch your opponent off guard, and often easier to recover from. I really don’t see why every sword attack routine should be ‘swing one way, swing the other, stab’.

Precision Strike: Precision Strike has problems, but I don’t think nixing it and rebuilding up is the answer. Targetting random objects clearly needs to stop, and an increased projectile speed so you’ve got a decent chance to hit a target within at least 500 range (at least unless they actively dodge) and I think we’d have a decent skill. You’re focusing on making sword melee, but I think there’s room for it to be a skirmishing weapon that encourages melee but also provides some short-range skills.

Unrelenting Assualt: Keep in mind the source material here. Shiro didn’t just spike down a single target. He bounced around smacking EVERYBODY.

I agree that the idea of singling out individual targets is flawed, but that’s in part because that’s not what Shiro actually did: he took on the whole party at once. I think mechanics that reward doing so are interesting, but what I’d really like to see is for the mechanics to punish people less harshly for joining in a group fight. So we could have UA getting a 15% damage boost per unique target hit (so while it’s more effective for spiking if you do have a single target exposed, if you’re hitting multiple targets it will do more damage overall). A similar principle could be applied to Precision Strike – possibly make it pierce (so if you do it in the right spot you might hit your primary target three times and get a few other targets as well), or increase the effect of a single dagger while additional daggers have reduced effects.

Duellist’s Preparation: I presume that by removing the cast-time, you mean making it so that there isn’t the quarter-second delay before the block triggers?

Shackling Wave: Yeah, this skill is… problematic. It’s an immobilise skill, but it’s so fiddly to pull off that you’re not likely to get the immobilise when you really want it. Buffing the damage would certainly make it a more useful skill in general, but I think what would help it more is removing the requirement for Duellist’s Preparation to block an attack: maybe make it so you can double-press 4 to get the effect immediately if you want it, or even make Duellist’s Preparation automatically flip into Shackling Wave when it finishes whether you block or not.

Grasping Shadow: I think the general concept of this skill is solid – what I’d probably do is keep the current functionality, but address the issue you raise by having it apply an immobilise afterwards so they can’t just run back without expending a resource to do so.

I can see the issue with using it to break the defiance bar on a boss, but this is where looking at the sword as it’s currently set up rather than making it a pure melee weapon comes into play: after using Grasping Shadow, you can follow up with Precision Strike while closing a bit of distance and then use UA to get back in right away. Or if you’re using mace you can lay down a fire field and then blast it. And that’s without going into the options your legendary gives. And sometimes in PvE, having a rollback is a good thing.

Corruption:

Opportune Extraction:I’m not sure about boosting stationary Torment as that can be confusing for counterplay to Torment in PvP. On the other hand, the usual counterplay is condi removal, so it may not be a big deal there.

Demonic Defiance: Feels like a net nerf – Mallyx skills aren’t spammable without massively burning through your energy, so needing to use two demon skills within 5 seconds to get the same net effect as it currently has seems like a nerf to me. If you use three you can get ahead… but that’s a minimum of 45 energy, 60 if you don’t use your heal skill.

Replenishing Despair: I’m a bit meh towards both options, to be honest. Removing the ICD and reducing the heal would make it more useful against condi bombing.

Venom Enhancement: Works for me.

Frigid Precision: I’m not sure a random blind is the way to go here. Not sure what a better option would be either, though.

Maniacal Persistance: Seems like a good chance to me. 3% per condition seems like it might be a little high – 2% might be better.

Pulsating Pestilence: Agreed. It really needs a threshold so it doesn’t end up blowing the ICD on a single stack of Bleed or something.

Mallyx Stance

Empowering Misery: 3s seems like it might be a little high, but the idea of baseline Resistance (to prevent loss of healing through Poison at the very least) seems fitting.

Pain Absorption: This seems like it makes it too reliant on being in a group to have the effect. Adding Resistance to Embrace the Darkness might compensate for that, but if the problem is being able to get too much Resistance uptime, reducing the additional resistance per condition (to 0.5s, say) might be a better option. A revenant who uses this without pulling conditions from allies is already paying for a functionality they’re not using without getting a reduced effect from the conditions already on them as well.

Banish Enchantment: No strong feelings either way on this suggestion.

Embrace the Darkness: I’m inclined to allow condition removal to remain: I can see times when you might go into this when you would actually prefer to have conditions removed. What I’d be inclined to do is make it faster to initiate, so a player can more fluidly swap between Embracing and Resisting the Darkness according to how many conditions they have.

Another alternative could be to dispense with the Resistance, and make it pulse a condition transfer instead: rather than making you immune to conditions, it allows you to shake them off quickly, and discourages opponents from giving you more while it’s active.

I love your ideas Burtnik. Can you share your thoughts about retribution and salvation rework too?

I hope this topic is not going to fall in oblivion coz, unafortunatly, revenant need numerous changes in traitlines and utilities skills. But i’m really starting to think that they hate heavy armor class in this game. Guardians, warriors and revenant need, all three, changes and reworking.

What anet meant about singling out enemies was that rev is weaker in teamfights than against 1 target. Then what comes to trait changes, everybody who really plays revenant knows that vicious laceration is better than ferocious strikes so replace that rather than vicious. Sword 2 is now super good skill but it has some bugs and when those bugs are fixed it’s perfect. UA is fine as it is except that it still bugs with slow and needs to be fixed. In pvp it’s better to play with double stab on dodge so idk about the fury change either to nefarious momentum and in pve you have perma fury anyways.

draxynnic.3719:

2long post 4me

1. Ferocious+Vicious

Just cause they lack movement speed doesnt mean we should too. And guardian imo should get it too somewhere… Mesmer while lacking movement speed has some ways to get swiftness. Getting faster around with IO is not really a great idea in pve due to PT, in wvw/spvp due to being catched off guard with no energy. Atm we are not in better position when it comes to traits either way. A sword trait, another sword trait and pvp trait. Movement speed is at least usable by all builds and doesnt force you to get Glint for swiftness.

2. Malicious Reprisal

Thats actually a great suggestion but im not sure if they can program it this way?

3. Dismantle Fortifications:

And Forced Engagement. The way it is now (and hard to say if intended) it only strip 2 stacks of stab, if you target had 1 stack he wont get cc still. Hard to come with something unique and connected to cc really but most likely i will try to come up with something new

4. Shiro removed hexes

And how you make it in? Shiro already has decent anti cc, mobility (on paper, thx bug), dps and cc. We could make it transfer condition with 1 sec interval and it would end broken. We could make it 3sec interval and you wont get much out of it. Better idea is to make it pulse resistance but that step on Mallyx territory. Generally speaking Shiro will end up even more mandatory than it is now if he get condi cleanse as its basically all in one package except tools to reduce direct damage.

5. Assassin’s Annihilation:

You should always do flanks in pvp at least tho. Its quite hard to flank with hammer on the other hand so most of the time hammer has no benefit from this trait unless you fight unaware foe.

6. Enchanted Daggers:

Imagine this situation. You have 8k hp left, X heal is on cd so youre left with Shiro, another rev lands 9 confusion stacks on you (passive proc, 2 banish). You cast heal, 1,6k and now geting eated by passive confusion tick. If you try to proc daggers, no matter what you use youll die, if you wont do anything you die too. Is is that how healing skills are supposed to work now? I dont mind losing damage from this skill at all, but i want reliable heal that actually helps me survive you know..doing it job rather than work as dps boost.

I can retreat to gate in wvw with a bit of conditions (used Glint heal to survive) and that leaves me with Shiro but i cant proc daggers so most likely conditions will put me in downed state. While retreating i cant proc daggers either. If you fight some cool evade dancer thief, you wont proc too many daggers either. If damage pressure is too high you wont think how to proc daggers outside of ua, what you will try is kite and survive.
While running around in pve and taking heavy damage from mobs in HoT i have to stop and attack to actually heal, meanwhile on my dh i press healing skill and call it a day.

I could give you milion of examples why its the worst and flawed healing skill in game but everyone knows it by now, even non rev players. What people actually used to heal up was Glint/Mallyx and shield 5, Shiro heal is not something you can count on at all in current state. Shiro/Glint combo has the most restricted, situational and predicable heals atm. Glint require your target to be braindead, Shiro require you to hit. Thats a bit too much with nerfed into ground shield.

7. Phase Traversal

It is not intended to be used under cc tho. At the very least the animation shouldnt push you futher and trigger barriers to interrupt rev. That is the problem as you have no way to escape other than apply stability on dodge (and sometimes even that doesnt work vs multiple rings/shoes)*

8. Sword auto

*Lets put it in another way.. The stab animation (at least on charr) is just ugly and doesnt really fit. It feels weird to open up with something that doesnt provide a range advantage in game or anything really. I would also think that stab actually is supposed to hurt more (final thrust). In the end however i wouldnt mind to see something like that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordhau which makes more sense.

9 Precision Strike+UA

Well i guess noone care about the lore in the end, right? At least role should not outshine gameplay otherwise we should win a match by casting jade winds at the start of a match right? Precision strike and UA or in other words sword loses it damage when more than one target show up and that is problematic both pve and pvp. If i go with warrior to teamfight, i dont deal less damage, i deal more as i can tag up more people with single ability (see Arc Divider). If i go with guard i dont lose damage either from my abilities.

Basically there is no class nor weapon that lose damage on single target just bc a pet up or someone else show up. That is a flawed desing. I dont mind making them sword/sword focus on 1v1 (and it leaves space for aoe gs) but desing should support it in this case. See thief, jump in teamfight, burst someone and hop out. With rev you wont burst anyone in teamfight atm as both precision strike and ua act as aoe which goes against “singling out enemies” idea. You can work as +1 but you wont be as effective if its a pet class and thief does it better in general due to superior burst.

10. Duellist’s Preparation:

Thats right. Just like staff 3, block should trigger in the moment where i press button. Getting block interrupted by random cc is a frustrating experience and idk why they ever made it that way. Hammer 4 for engi worked in similiar way and they changed it.

11. Shackling Wave:

I think its better to give people counterplay by simply not attacking during the block windup. Its like giving chrono ability to use his block 2x in a row..

12. Grasping Shadow:

That doesnt solve pulling away ppl from teamfight. A stun helps whole team, a pull only you. Both in general has it + and – but it doesnt make sense to have a pull on a melee skill. So at the very least it should be changed to ranged skill in the end.

UA is also a dps loss if youre not in Shiro and grasping shadow may get you in place..you didnt wanted to be. Atm i use grasp shadow for jade winds set up btw, you can stun ppl before they recover from pull.

13. Opportune Extraction: I’m not sure about boosting stationary Torment as that can be confusing for counterplay to Torment in PvP. On the other hand, the usual counterplay is condi removal, so it may not be a big deal there.

Pretty much have not seen anyone that stopped moving in pvp due to torment unless it as selfroot skill/rez/downed so in the end it doesnt really matter in pvp. Its aimed more towards pve where torment just sux, so does condi rev for that one simple reason

14. Demonic Defiance

Facet of Nature tho.. there was a reason why they nerfed this trait in the first place right? Better to have 1sec resistance with no icd or 2sec with 5 icd?

15. Replenishing Despair

Tbh i dont know how this trait can play out with Mallyx change to EtD. Before it was completely useless and outshined by demonic defiance, now is also useless for the same reason. Shaving the heal is something they can always do if it end up being stronger than intended.

16. Frigid Precision:

Originally i thought about no icd on blind but theres one thing that stopped me from it.. and its called UA in Mallyx. It could instead apply vul tho with no icd

17. Maniacal Persistance:

I believe 2% is too low for a gm trait. And its not like you can spread 13 condi on your own atm. Vul, weakness, confu, torment, burning, some chill is all we have atm.

18. Empowering Misery:

It has 30cd so imho nothing gamebreaking. I dont mind shaving it to 2sec tho. Atm before healing you have to apply resistance from another skill as resistance is delayed and apply right after healing. It feels bad when you have under poison with no resistance. Imagine necros healing 33% less from CC due to poison..

19. Pain Absorption

Atm its a button to go to protect yourself from resistance, you can also cast it before swapping legend and cover resistance on second legend. That is a bit problematic.
But i think youre spot on to leave it as 2 second resistance and get rid of extra resistance completely from transfered conditions. I tried to add burning make it more of a offensive skill tho. Getting resistance on second legend from Mallyx wont be a easy task with EtD and thats the overall goal here.

20. Embrace the Darkness:

Imho entering this “mode” has + and -. I dont think condition removal will be needed when youre covered up with resistance for it duration and due to no cd you can hop in and hop out at will too so team can coordinate cleanses. Allowing it to cure conditions from allies puts us back a bit into “halp, my ally nerfs me” thing. Thats a reason why i do not want to see whole Mallyx to be reverted back to it bwe2 state, it was better than that we have now, but not ideal still.
Also you mean to lower it casttime btw?

21. “Another alternative could be to dispense with the Resistance, and make it pulse a condition transfer instead: rather than making you immune to conditions, it allows you to shake them off quickly, and discourages opponents from giving you more while it’s active.”

I would like to keep condition copy as its a original playstyle. Changing it to condition transfer would make it too necro-ish imo.

Sry for eng mistakes, that was a bit too long for my taste but ty for feedback, you brought up some interesing points.

The Ace.9105:

What anet meant about singling out enemies was that rev is weaker in teamfights than against 1 target. Then what comes to trait changes, everybody who really plays revenant knows that vicious laceration is better than ferocious strikes so replace that rather than vicious. Sword 2 is now super good skill but it has some bugs and when those bugs are fixed it’s perfect. UA is fine as it is except that it still bugs with slow and needs to be fixed. In pvp it’s better to play with double stab on dodge so idk about the fury change either to nefarious momentum and in pve you have perma fury anyways.

Then that logic should apply to thief also, hm? Or to my condi mace/axe set. Fact is sword mh is the only weapon in game that hits like wet noodle in teamfights jsut bc it loses damage in the moment where more than one target show up and its wrong on many levels. Also double stab on dodge is completely braindead and causes too many issues, thats why the trait in herald has to be reworked.. In pve you will always pick up assassin presence over fury trait btw.

So what about these changes

Pain abs; provides 2sec of resistance on use, no longer gains resistance for transfered conditions. Apply aoe 2 stacks of burn for 4sec, 30 energy

Dismantle Fortifications;

Option 1; Gain 3sec quickness on succesful cc.
Option 2; reveal stealted foe for 5s when you hit them, 20cd
Option 3; Cc skills strip protection and apply 25vul (3sec) if they stun a target

Frigid Precision;

Option 1; remove icd from blind
Option 2; make it apply 3stacks of vul when you chill foe.

Empowering Misery – reduce resistance to 2 seconds

Enchanted Daggers – Change to 5,5k heal on cast, daggers siphon 160hp x6, unblockable (deflect/reflect issues), 20sec duration

Burtnik.5218:

So what about these changes

Pain abs; provides 2sec of resistance on use, no longer gains resistance for transfered conditions. Apply aoe 2 stacks of burn for 4sec, 30 energy

Dismantle Fortifications;

Option 1; Gain 3sec quickness on succesful cc.
Option 2; reveal stealted foe for 5s when you hit them, 20cd
Option 3; Cc skills strip protection and apply 25vul (3sec) if they stun a target

Frigid Precision;

Option 1; remove icd from blind
Option 2; make it apply 3stacks of vul when you chill foe.

Empowering Misery – reduce resistance to 2 seconds

Enchanted Daggers – Change to 5,5k heal on cast, daggers siphon 160hp x6, unblockable (deflect/reflect issues), 20sec duration

Option 3
Option 1

Out of space in main post so posting in this one. These changes are a bit more crazy so take a closer look please. Jalis;

Ventari.

Burtnik.5218:

Hi. In this thread im gonna post my changed regardless rev to weak/underused traits, skills or weapons. I have been trying hard to not end up with them on “op side” but as everyne knows.. its not really possible – something will always slip in.

A feedback will be welcomed to make a rev a better class than what it is now without turning it into a monster. Theres nothing fun walking over your opponents with face on the keyboard. I decided to balance it out via specializations where each traitline has a role, each legend has a + and – offering a counterplay to enemy and really give us that feeling we really change the class with the moment when we press that magic f1 key. For example Jalis was buffed to be highly resistant to power damage and hard cc but can be countered by soft cc and conditions

As a core rev masochist i also want to reduce the gap between core rev and herald. Herald shouldnt feel like superior to core rev, it should instead provide alternative playstyle focused on boons unlike core rev that has nearly no access to them. I wont post all of the changes at once but over time making sure everything is finished. I will start with a devastation, shiro and dual sword as i feel they are finished and ready to share.

Show Spoiler

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• Devastation. Goal of this traitline is to improve damage, mobility, Shiro stance.

• Adept

1. Ferocious Strikes. Changed to provide 150 ferocity while wearing sword in mainhand.

Just a sword trait in Shiro theme which is all about fury, ferocity and damage in general.

2. Vicious Lacerations. Removed and replaced with Assassin Speed. +25% Movement speed with no special req.

Reason for this is the fact core rev lack a trait to increase it movement speed or any access to swiftness forcing them to use herald traitline+Glint for swiftness upkeep facet or into traveler/speed rune.

2. Malicious Reprisal. Gain 2seconds of unblockable attacks when striking a foe below 50% hp. 30cd.

Current interraction is too random and can proc on random aegis rendering the trait to be useless when needed given it high cd.
2 attacks are also nothing special when revenant is actually a multi hit profession.
This trait triggering at 50% gives revenant more control to time it properly rather than be a pure rng trait that might or might not trigger in proper time.

• Master

1. Jade Echo. Cd reduced to 45sec.

Reason is simple – current cd is way too long to even consider this lore trait.

2. Nefarious Momentum. Gain fury for 4seconds when using Shiro stance skills.

We dont need might on Shiro, what core rev lacks is access to fury to make proper use of Roiling Mists in invocation.
Atm its quite poor trait and 2 might doesnt really offer us anything when we have Glint.

• GM

1. Dismantle Fortifications. Interrupting a foe put their recharge on longer cd (10sec). Additionally life siphon from interrupted foes (800 life siphon).

In current state this trait is absolute garbage. Extra stack of stability doesnt mean anything to a class that already doesnt have a lot of cc to begin with. Funny enough is that if someone has one stack of stability with this trait equipped he still wont cc the target. It also doesnt affect breakbars.

In this interraction we gain another unique way to hurt enemies by interrupting their skills and putting them on a longer cd while also healing a bit by doing so.

2. Assassins Annihilator. Now triggers regardless of position.

QoL change mostly needed for hammer weapon and vengeful hammers change.

• Shiro – Stance focused on mobile, evasive playstyle. Weakness: conditions, group focus, high pressure.

1. Enchanted Daggers. Changed functionality. Now it heals 6,5k upon casting summoning 6 daggers for next 10 seconds for extra pressure. Damage of daggers reduced by 20%. Unblockable.

Reason for that is the fact that this healing skill works poorly in all game modes as it cannot be used as emergercy button and trying to heal up often results in death.
It doesnt provide enough heal from daggers to actually survive, even less so when we trying to kite.

Also given how much counteprlay daggers have (affected by terrain, dodges, reflect, range, kiting and so on) poor synergy between hammer and recent nerf to ua this change completely justiced.

2. Phase Traversal. Cd removed, energy cost increased to 25. Insta cast.

Revenant was all about energy management. Balance should be done by adjusting energy cost otherwise we take double punishment and the whole energy management or the energy itself is a moot point. The only skills that should have cd+energy cost are cc’s as they are usually too strong to be spammed.

In current where on top of it failing most of the time it also can be interrupted, be affected by power block (15s recharge) or chill increasing cd to 8sec.

25 energy is equal to 5sec cd, if some rev decide to use it 2 times in a row he will be forced to swap due to lack of energy. Swap also removes this ability for next 10second so during that time anyone can run away.

Insta cast was also added for 2 reasons;
First if it fail aka invalid path it wont do animation consuming energy, all it will show will be “no valid path” most of the time
Second due to the fact that its is the only one teleport skill in game which we cant use as escape from hard cc let it be dragon maw, slisk shoes.

• Sword MH

1. Autoattack. Feel free to skip that one.

Its a clunky mess that need to be cleaned up. How come 2nd hit has 3/4 cast while last one has just 1/2? Also stab as opener..no. It has to go. It doesnt make logical sense to open up to anyone with a stab (used as finishing move). Stab also experience issues with connecting to mobile targets.

2. Precision Strike. Changed to melee target skill with a cleave up to 3. Keep current damage and change it to 3 fast slashes (flurry animation anyone?) each slash does 1sec chill.

If we are supposed to single out enemies with sword according to dev words, give us tools to do so. Current precision strike is a disaster. Sword is also a melee weapon therefore it should be threated as one.

3. Unrelenting Assault. Changed to single target skill. Increased damage per strike by 15%, removed might.

Again, this ability doesnt make much sense as aoe skill anymore due to the recent nerf and the idea about singling out enemies.

Damage from this skill was also hit too hard given how much counterplay it got by lowering it duration. Aoe nature of this skill is also the reason why it proc confusion few times and break on stealth unlike other channeled skills.

• Sword OH

1. Duelist’s Preparation. Removed casttime.

Reason for this is the fact that in current state the block itself can be randomly interrupted by enemy. It also need a fix in block duration as it end earlier than the animation itself unlike warrior riposte (also sword 4).

2. Shacking Wave – Increased damage by 120%

It hits kitten too low for a counterattack skill when we compare it to everything else. 2sec immobilize doesnt justify the low damage it does really either.

3. Grasping Shadow. Changed to 2 second stun.

A pull in melee doesnt make much sense, making it a range pull steps a bit on axe as well.
Overall idea behind this skill was to separate foes from groupfight but..it doesnt work at all as we dont really have tools to prevent them from running back nor it doesnt make much sense when my team want to focus x target and i just pull it away from them
Pve wise its also a poor skill as it causes dps loss due to the fact it pulls me away from the boss and closing the gap takes time.

Show Spoiler

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• Corruption. Goal of this traitline is to gain benefits from conditions, improve condition damage and Mallyx.

• Minor

Opportune Extraction. Torment has increased damage to stationary foes by 100%. (equal damage to mobile foes)

Mostly a change needed for pve as its our primary damaging condition, but it also needed for stronghold mode vs npcs. Might need to be toned down to 75%

• Adept

1. Demonic Defiance. Reduced duration of resistance to 1 second. Removed icd

Overall goal was to undo the unnecessary nerf and shave this trait a bit so its no longer a must pick option.

2. Replenishing Despair. Removed icd, reduced healing to ~70

I think previous beta interraction was fine but overshadowed by demonic defiance trait.

3. Venom Enhancement. Cd reduced to 10. Poison also deals 33% more damage

• Master

1. Frigid Precision. Also apply blind when you chill foe.

I feel like it should make it a bit more interesing choice than what it is atm. Blind also has 10cd btw.

• GM

1. Maniacal Persistence. Gain critical chance for each condition on your foe (3% per condi)

An alternative to roiling mists for condi builds allowing them to go dev/corr/herald.

2. Pulsating Pestilence. When you get 3+ conditions on yourself you will copy conditions to next foe that hit you. 15cd

• Mallyx – Stance focused on condition manipulation. Weakness; Hard CC, high power pressure

1. Empowering Misery. Also gain 3sec resistance (applied before healing)

2. Pain Absortion. Now applies resistance only when you transfer condition to yourself and burn foes around you. 2 stacks of burning for 2sec, 1sec resistance per condition transfered, 600 radius, reduced energy to 30.

The resistance uptime from this skill is far too high allowing it to transfer over to next stance and keep up it permanently if played wisely.
As compensation it had added burning so it doesnt feel completely useless outside of teamfights.

3. Banish Enchatment. Increased energy cost to 25.

Being honest.. this skill is broken, it hard to dodge due to the little tell it has and does too much for the energy cost. I have seen many people swapping to Mallyx just to spam this skill. Increase in energy cost should tone this skill a bit i believe.

4. Embrace the Darkness. Condition copy is brought back! While this skill is active conditions cannot be cleansed off revenant. To details;

Duration of copied conditions; 3sec
Also pulses resistance every second
Pulse interval; 1sec
Torment duration reduced to 3sec
Upkeep increased to -8

While the other 2 (3..part of) abilities to non condition builds, this one is a tool to face condition builds and fight them “fire with fire”.
Its the main strenght of Mallyx allowing him to resist conditions as long you have energy to do so while at same time sending them slowly back.
While it sounds crazy op on paper i dont believe it end up this way. Mallyx should feast on conditions and punish people for dumbing them on him but at same time
Mallyx offensive capalicies are limited while still being exposed to power damage or hard cc.
The counter to condition builds for Mallyx is simple – bait out energy and condi bomb right as rev swap legend

I like it. I don’t know about the auto attack, yes brutal blade (2nd one? Not sure) needs to have a lower cast time, if anything the last one should have the 3/4s. I also like the idea of grasping shadow (that hit range needs to be doubled though) because repostitioning an enemy can mess with the coordination of the enemy, such as in res situations. It could be changed for pve, that would make sense.

Other then that it’s pretty spot on. I supported the 5s cd on phase traverse but if it’s gunna remain this unreliable, it needs to change. I just hope devs are reading this and your bug post, which should be made sticky…

Burtnik.5218:

1. Ferocious+Vicious

Just cause they lack movement speed doesnt mean we should too. And guardian imo should get it too somewhere… Mesmer while lacking movement speed has some ways to get swiftness. Getting faster around with IO is not really a great idea in pve due to PT, in wvw/spvp due to being catched off guard with no energy. Atm we are not in better position when it comes to traits either way. A sword trait, another sword trait and pvp trait. Movement speed is at least usable by all builds and doesnt force you to get Glint for swiftness.

Ask mesmer players what they thought of Temporal Curtain as their out-of-combat swiftness source. ;-)

Using Impossible Odds as out-of-combat mobility has its downsides, yes, but so does having a valuable utility slot occupied by a signet or having to have melee weapons out to get your speedboost. Between IO and perma-Swiftness on Herald, the revenant already has a couple of choices, and adding a third choice on a line that will often be coupled with Shiro seems redundant. If we were to put in such a trait for the rev, I’d be more inclined to put it in Salvation. Make it a bit harder to outrun a centaur.

(I’m also not sure why Phase Traversal makes using IO for out-of-combat mobility in PvE a bad thing. PT is just another option, and if anything, makes putting a speed increase trait in the Shiro-associated line even more redundant.)

Ferocious currently is not a sword trait – it’s a sword or mace trait. Sure, it’s likely that extra ferocity benefits sword more than the condition-oriented mace, but it’s there.

2. Malicious Reprisal

Thats actually a great suggestion but im not sure if they can program it this way?

Good question.

3. Dismantle Fortifications:

I’m pretty sure it was stated in the Points of Interest that it was supposed to allow Shiro to simply punch through a single stack of stability. Which suggests it’s not working as intended.

4. Shiro removed hexes

And how you make it in? Shiro already has decent anti cc, mobility (on paper, thx bug), dps and cc. We could make it transfer condition with 1 sec interval and it would end broken. We could make it 3sec interval and you wont get much out of it. Better idea is to make it pulse resistance but that step on Mallyx territory. Generally speaking Shiro will end up even more mandatory than it is now if he get condi cleanse as its basically all in one package except tools to reduce direct damage.

I was thinking of a GM trait to add condition transfer when using Unrelenting Assault. So you could remove five conditions that way every 12 seconds. Could still be a little too strong, and a little too reliant on a specific skill for a trait. It’s not an idea I’m particularly attached to, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.

6. Enchanted Daggers:

Imagine this situation. You have 8k hp left, X heal is on cd so youre left with Shiro, another rev lands 9 confusion stacks on you (passive proc, 2 banish). You cast heal, 1,6k and now geting eated by passive confusion tick. If you try to proc daggers, no matter what you use youll die, if you wont do anything you die too. Is is that how healing skills are supposed to work now?

My first response is that the Shiro heal should already be on cooldown by now as part of trying not to get into that position in the first place.

My second response is to put this in context: Sub in some other profession, specify that they’re on low health, they’ve used their heal skill, and they’re being condibombed. What chance do they have either? Maybe they’ve got some way of wrinkling out of it, but often they’ll just be in trouble too.

Revenant is unique in that it has two heal skills on its bar, not just one. This means that not every heal skill needs to be suitable as an emergency heal. It also means that ’you’ve used your other heal’ scenarios need to be considered in the context that other professions will have used their heal and won’t have another available. The more conventional revenant heals are actually pretty good in the context that there’s a second one available.

(Note that I could see some more frontlining of the heal as being appropriate – but I’d probably limit it to switching half of the heal from the daggers to the initial at most. Making the heal from the daggers harder to prevent would be worthwhile, though.)

7. Phase Traversal

It is not intended to be used under cc tho. At the very least the animation shouldnt push you futher and trigger barriers to interrupt rev. That is the problem as you have no way to escape other than apply stability on dodge (and sometimes even that doesnt work vs multiple rings/shoes)*

Ah… now I’ve got you.

It’s possible that this is deliberate, and that PT isn’t intended to allow you to break out of warding rings. Assuming that isn’t the case… it could be solved as easily by making it so your invulnerable or otherwise able to ignore the warding as you’re skimming over it. In the meantime, the rush gives PT a tell.

8. Sword auto

*Lets put it in another way.. The stab animation (at least on charr) is just ugly and doesnt really fit. It feels weird to open up with something that doesnt provide a range advantage in game or anything really. I would also think that stab actually is supposed to hurt more (final thrust). In the end however i wouldnt mind to see something like that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordhau which makes more sense.

Grasping the sword by the blade and beating them with the hilt? That was usually done with two-handed swords… as is the half-sword thrust also in the picture. I’d love to see a game depicting two-handed swords being used as they were actually used, but it’s not really relevant for a one-handed sword style inspired by Shiro’s more agile fighting style.

I had a long discussion planned out regarding thrusts and swings, but to cut it short: Most games, that allow you to choose between thrusts and swings, make the thrust a quicker but less damaging strike that is more likely to connect. This matches my experience and expectations (experience in how the moves feel, expectations in that what I’ve done has had proper safety in place so people don’t actually get impaled or their limbs hacked off). The exception is that thrusts are often used for the coup de grace because once you’ve identified the weak spot a thrust will hit home, but that requires the target’s defenses to have been compromised to begin with.

Comparing to existing professions: thief and mesmer I tend to think of as a crude representation of a ‘feint, parry, thrust’ combat style, but with the feint and parry doing damage in game mechanics because it would suck if you only got the damage on the final swing. Guardian is just using magic, and the animation is determined by what fits the spell in question… as, incidentally, is the case with the end of the revenant chain.

9 Precision Strike+UA

Well i guess noone care about the lore in the end, right? At least role should not outshine gameplay otherwise we should win a match by casting jade winds at the start of a match right? Precision strike and UA or in other words sword loses it damage when more than one target show up and that is problematic both pve and pvp. If i go with warrior to teamfight, i dont deal less damage, i deal more as i can tag up more people with single ability (see Arc Divider). If i go with guard i dont lose damage either from my abilities.

I think there’s a bit of a misconception here. Sword 2 and 3, with multiple targets, don’t reduce your damage (except when Precision Strike bugs and throws daggers at objects, of course). They spread it out. This makes it harder to focus and spike on a single target, yes, and that is a downside, but you’re still doing the same total damage overall, and that extra damage you’re doing on off targets is still a form of pressure that may pay off later. After all, in practise, it’s rare that all of the damage on a teamfight is going on a single target. Even if everyone involved has the discipline to relentlessly hound a single target (and that single target doesn’t find a way to get away and recover), there’s going to be cleaves and other AoEs that hit off targets, and a little bit of extra off-target pressure might mean the difference between seeing the target you’ve spiked down get revived, and seeing all your opponents go down in quick succession to be picked off at leisure.

Consider, also, that while under current mechanics sword 2 and 3 are most efficient when used on single targets, there is a certain coolness factor in bouncing between multiple opponents or throwing daggers in several directions, while it’s a bit disappointing that the mechanics actually encourage you to do the exact opposite. Consider how many people were taken in by Rytlock showing it off in the trailer, for instance – it would be a shame for that to be removed entirely. My proposal is to compensate for the loss of focus by increasing the potential total damage done, so you can use it in a multitarget environment without feeling like it’s a waste. This would mean that the sword revenant has a good ability to knock someone down in a 1v1, but in a teamfight its role switches to pressuring the enemy team as a whole rather than focusing a single target (you know, like how the real Shiro pressured the entire party). Consider, for instance, if Unrelenting Assault was to go back to seven strikes if you have multiple targets – when fighting two foes, this would mean that the first target would take 80% of the single-target damage while the off target takes 60%… not including the effect of additional Might stacks. I’d take that trade.

11. Shackling Wave:

I think its better to give people counterplay by simply not attacking during the block windup. Its like giving chrono ability to use his block 2x in a row..

A reasonable approach. The takeaway is that it either needs to be more reliable, or it needs to suitably reward pulling it off.

12. Grasping Shadow:

That doesnt solve pulling away ppl from teamfight. A stun helps whole team, a pull only you. Both in general has it + and – but it doesnt make sense to have a pull on a melee skill. So at the very least it should be changed to ranged skill in the end.

Sure, but there are other ways of using it. For a 2v2, for instance, you could pull one target away (and immobilise them with my suggestion), Phase Traversal to the other, and then be free to unload PS and UA on them. You could use it to remove a target from point for a faster decap (if you’re 2v1ing a bunker, say, although that’s probably less important now). You can potentially pull shenanigans with ressing (although I have to admit I haven’t verified that pulling a downed opponent works). A two second stun is foolproof, but it also allows less opportunity for intelligent play.

Making it ranged could work.

Splitting off Mallyx due to character limit…

14. Demonic Defiance

Facet of Nature tho.. there was a reason why they nerfed this trait in the first place right? Better to have 1sec resistance with no icd or 2sec with 5 icd?

I think that depends on how often you’re using three demon stance skills within five seconds.

16. Frigid Precision:

Originally i thought about no icd on blind but theres one thing that stopped me from it.. and its called UA in Mallyx. It could instead apply vul tho with no icd

Vulnerability might work better.

17. Maniacal Persistance:

I believe 2% is too low for a gm trait. And its not like you can spread 13 condi on your own atm. Vul, weakness, confu, torment, burning, some chill is all we have atm.

I was thinking in terms of getting an effect roughly equivalent of Roiling Mists on average. On second glance, though, I misremembered the effect of RM – I thought it was 10%. So yeah, let’s make it 3%.

19. Pain Absorption

Atm its a button to go to protect yourself from resistance, you can also cast it before swapping legend and cover resistance on second legend. That is a bit problematic.
But i think youre spot on to leave it as 2 second resistance and get rid of extra resistance completely from transfered conditions. I tried to add burning make it more of a offensive skill tho. Getting resistance on second legend from Mallyx wont be a easy task with EtD and thats the overall goal here.

I’m not sure that carry-over resistance is such a big deal: it means you can swap without immediately eating all the conditions, and if the enemy has a boonstrip, they can counter this with a boonstrip knowing it will be a while before you can get resistance back.

20. Embrace the Darkness:

Imho entering this “mode” has + and -. I dont think condition removal will be needed when youre covered up with resistance for it duration and due to no cd you can hop in and hop out at will too so team can coordinate cleanses. Allowing it to cure conditions from allies puts us back a bit into “halp, my ally nerfs me” thing. Thats a reason why i do not want to see whole Mallyx to be reverted back to it bwe2 state, it was better than that we have now, but not ideal still.
Also you mean to lower it casttime btw?

Part of my concern, apart from wondering whether it’s technically feasible to block condition removal, is that while blocking condition removal may be the way to maximise how many conditions you can spread, there are a lot of ways it can be a bad thing too. With the other changes you’ve suggested, EtD is likely to become the main source of self-Resistance: if you’ve entered EtD in order to get Resistance against a big stack of conditions but your energy is running low and it’s only a stopgap measure, for instance, you’re not going to be happy about your ally’s condition removal being unable to affect you. Similarly, skills that exploit conditions exist – your teammates aren’t going to thank you if an enemy necromancer is using you as an Epidemic target and there’s nothing they can do about it.

In my mind, the main problem with condition clearing on the BWE2 Mallyx is that every Mallyx skill required a significant stack of conditions to get full effect. Now, however, Banish Enchantments and Unyielding Anguish both work well regardless. I don’t see it being a big deal if EtD can be condition cleared when it’s only one skill that can be toggled on and off – toggle it on when you have a lot of conditions, toggle it off and use the energy for something else. Part of the design of revenant is that if a particular skill isn’t suitable for the circumstance you can just use the energy on a skill that is, after all. (This is why I put forward the possibility of reducing the cast time of Embracing the Darkness: so it can be easier to switch in and out.)

21. “Another alternative could be to dispense with the Resistance, and make it pulse a condition transfer instead: rather than making you immune to conditions, it allows you to shake them off quickly, and discourages opponents from giving you more while it’s active.”

I would like to keep condition copy as its a original playstyle. Changing it to condition transfer would make it too necro-ish imo.[/quote]With regard to making it a transfer rather than a copy: I don’t think it’s really a big deal if it’s a bit similar to the necromancer’s condition transfer. You mentioned in the original post that switching legends should feel a bit like temporarily switching professions – this is my feeling as well, however, I don’t think it’s a problem if the legends resemble some aspect of an existing profession with a revenant flavour. We see this in the current design – Shiro is thief-like and Jalis is guardian-like, for instance. Guild Wars 2 isn’t a game where professions have well-defined roles, and we see a lot of overlap in capabilities between existing professions as it is: I think necromancers can stand a little competition in the condition transfer game. (Theoretically, mesmers can already do so, although their condition transfer skill is… less than efficient.)

Wanting to keep it unique is something I can certainly understand, though.

Regarding Jalis, from my viewpoint, the main purposes of Jalis are:

• Damage mitigation
• Condition mitigation
• Control mitigation

There’s a bit of damage and control in there, but I think it’s fair to say that you don’t take Jalis to boost damage and control.

The first overlaps with Glint, and the second overlaps with Mallyx. I don’t think this is in itself a bad thing, though – bringing a different combination of elements is still bringing a different package, even if the individual elements are all there.

The third, however, is the one that seems to have the biggest potential to give Jalis a unique feel. The problem is that while the intent is clearly there, there are obvious problems: Inspiring Reinforcement is often to slow to provide much help to the user, and while Rite of the Great Dwarf is a stunbreak, but expensive and easy to follow up with a second stun.

The quick solution is that dwarves have inherent stability. If we’re working on the assumption of Enhanced Bulwark getting replaced by something more Glint-oriented, then Jalis could be given a trait that allows every dwarf skill to grant a second of stability in order to resist interrupting. For the purpose of this discussion, though, I’m going to assume that’s unpalatable and look at making the individual skills self-contained.

Soothing Stone: Condition removal applied before healing. Increase healing (maybe).

I don’t think turning Soothing Stone into a better version of Shelter is the way to go: Soothing Stone has the same cooldown, higher base healing, clears conditions, and provides Retaliation, so adding Shelter’s block would make it objectively better than untraited Shelter in every way, and in fact competitive with Shelter benefiting from a couple of traits. While guardians have other sources of healing that isn’t based from skill 6, they also have lower base health and don’t have another heal from the second legend like revenants do. The order of condition removal is definitely off, particularly since revenants don’t have a lot of other condition control, so they don’t have as much opportunity to clear Poison and then heal as some other professions have.

Inspiring Reinforcement: Gain a single stack of stability on casting time. Duration of each stack of stability increases to 3s.

Essentially, a compromise between the pre-nerf version and the current over-nerfed version, allowing for gaining multiple stacks for staying on the road and being able to go off-road without immediately losing the stacks. Granting a stack to the revenant on casting rather than having to wait until the first pulse allows it to be used more reactively for CC prevention on the revenant themselves.

Forced Engagement: My preferred idea is to steal from Spear of Justice here: Reduce base energy to 30, but if you hit, you can spend another 10 energy and consume the effect in exchange for an immediate pull. Burtnik’s idea is also worthwhile, though. Both is probably overkill.

Vengeful Hammers: Hammers automatically respawn if destroyed as long as the upkeep is maintained. Alternative: Hammers are treated as a damaging aura instead of as projectiles.

This is the one skill that most people like on Jalis, so I don’t think a major redesign is called for. The main issue is the auto-cancellation due to walls, projectile destruction, and so on. Fix that and it should be fine.

Rite of the Great Dwarf: Block for 2s while performing the Rite of the Great Dwarf. Alternative: You are invulnerable while performing the Rite of the Great Dwarf.

Yes, I’m stealing the block idea and moving it to a different skill here, because I realised it solves so many problems with RotGD:

• The block/invulnerability prevents immediate restunning when you use your expensive stunbreak.
• More useful when fighting alone – it can be used to stop an attack entirely if well-timed, and there’s no longer the chance of being hit before the Rite finishes.
• Turns the activation time into an advantage instead of a disadvantage, making it work better with its current mechanics rather than as a sustained skill.

Traits

Unwavering Avoidance: I’m inclined to agree. I presume you’re working towards replacing Enhanced Bulwark with something more Glint-appropriate here.

Improved Aggression: Changing this into an effect that decreases the effect of mobility impairments seems to be a dwarfy approach to me.

Eye for an Eye: I don’t think any of the other ‘X happens in response to a stun’ traits give the opponent warning when they’re active. If the duration of the taunt is too long, by all means reduce it – but do keep in mind that taunt is probably the weakest of the hard CCs.

Retaliatory Evasion – Empowering Vengeance merge: YES.

Resistance of Deldrimor: This might be an appropriate spot for my ‘cover all dwarf skills with Stability’ idea. A flat reduction of control effect durations is suitably Great Dwarfy, though.

Versed in Stone: Rite of the Great Dwarf automatically triggers when struck while below 50% health (45s cooldown). Rite of the Great Dwarf additionally reduces duration of conditions and control effects by 50%.

Technically a minor nerf versus damaging conditions, since while the total damage from such conditions should be the same, it provides less protection against spikes. However, reducing the duration of soft and hard cc emphases Dwarf Stance as a source of stoicism that enables you and your allies to persevere in the face of adversity – plus, stone really should be able to shrug off most sources of control effects. As an added bonus, this also makes RotGD even more effective as a stunbreak – even after the block/invulnerability has worn off, any further stuns that land within the next few seconds will have half effect. If we change Improved Aggression into an anti-soft-CC trait as proposed, however, this change probably becomes redundant, although halving the damage of conditions (as present) and also halving the duration of hard CCs may be appropriate.

Proposed hammer changes: Not sure about Phase Smash being a knockback – might interfere with its current use as a blast finisher. Not entirely sure about removing the feel of Coalescence of Ruin being a long-range skill either. I’m not strongly opposed to either, I’m just… unsure.

I also kinda like the way the hammer in Drop the Hammer mimics the revenant’s own hammer blow, but again, I don’t feel strongly about that. It could still mimic it, just… slower.

A potential alternative would be to boost the damage of skills 1, 3 and 5 to compensate for what was lost on skill 2.

You dont think im gonna reply to all that, right? It will take me a whole day xD

Adressing some of the points (not much time)

At one point you want to keep Shiro heal unique, at another one you disagree making Jalis heal unique – atm its mending with retal. While obviously we have 2 heals, we dont have much else going for except siphoning heal that require us to play aggressive (its a good thing tho). I doubt giving block to an utility no cd skill is a good idea, but these things makes more sense on healing skill as they have fairy high 30cd.

Reason why i want to give Jalis a block on healing is simply – temporary protection from group focus and preventing spikes. Its a closer concept to Glint except they does it a bit different. Jalis block incoming attacks healing always for a fixed amount while Glint absord damage. Both should be equally good in tanky theme.

Eye for eye may be a bit buff with the icon tho.. thats right.

Inspiring Reinforcement needs to be changed to something like ds3 on reaper tho. Road is not fuctional and never be in this combat system. There is a reason why Hallowen Ground is not used at all despite fitting point in conquest just fine.

Atm if you want to stand in road you cant leave it.. if youre melee tough luck, if someone decide to bombard that place with aoe (not hard to do nowdays) tough luck. With enhanted bulwark you can get long lasting stab from road but you dont see anyone bothering with Jalis for a good reason – its not practical.

I like vengeful hammers too (works great vs blind spammers) but Rite makes more sense as upkeep skill just like EtD. It also place rev at 2 upkeep elites and 2 on use in core. I think i would value reflect/deflect more as well over hammers but let other speaks on this subject.

Fact is that Rite is atm weak, despite listened -75% which sounds crazy it has it counter – vul to reduce it effectiveness to 50%. But after all if a tanky legend with tanky traitline doesnt make me feel tanky..what will?

As for precision strike+ua.. While its cool and all to bounce between targets etc, yes it lose damage. All other abilities has the same damage vs single target as much as vs multiple targets. If you do mighty blow, you wont get reduced damage per target, instead you will hit all targets for the same amount of damage. Thats not the case with rev at all.

There wasnt a buff, just a nerf. Precision strike could always be used in teamfight for what it does. Now while it stronger 1v1 vs non pet classes it also comes at the cost of nerf to auto which overall hurts rev even more. UA was already useless for other reasons than evade, now we end up with 2 useless skills on sword in teamfight.
And its not like we are all that godlike at 1v1 either – druid, thief, scrapper have a fair high chance vs us and necro will demolish the floor with rev no matter what he runs.

Atm rev is not even considered to be something scary in 1v1 it by browsing forum. Condi rev outshinies power as it stands now.

draxynnic.3719:

This would mean that the sword revenant has a good ability to knock someone down in a 1v1, but in a teamfight its role switches to pressuring the enemy team as a whole rather than focusing a single target (you know, like how the real Shiro pressured the entire party).

That would be fine, but since the individual hits are actually kinda weak, you end up not doing too much. It doesn’t help that Anet told us that they want Sword to “single out” enemies and it just doesn’t do that.
What ends up happening is that you feel a lot more useless when you have more than a single target.

I’ve been thinking about how Sword could be changed and maybe it could have a slight “role” change? What I mean is, have Precision Strike as is, but improve the projectile speed and well, somehow not target boxes and houses and such. I know that’s not a terribly simple fix, but somehow it needs to happen. This could be the single target burst skill, but it gets its damage spread out when more enemies shows up and reverts to more of a pressure skills. It has an obvious animation, it chills, it has clear counters, etc.
Potentially needs damage lowered a tad if it becomes more consistent and reliable.

Then make Unrelenting Assault the opposite: it gets stronger the more targets appear, but is weaker in a 1v1.
Instead of 5/7 slashes on a single person, it will just do a single slash per target (up to 5 targets), but now it’ll have a nice cleaving arc, enough to punish clumped-up enemies and it should have much higher damage per swing and potentially a lower cost (which includes its cast time maybe).
It’ll still be good in 1v1 due to being a strong gap closer with good damage and have an evade attached to it with maybe a lower cool down, but now, if more targets show up and they don’t disperse (which will then make them easier to separate and spike down), they could potentially be hit multiple times (again, the cleaving arc should be decently large) for quite a bit of damage along with higher amounts of evade frames. It’ll still be quite a stylish skill too.

Just a thought. I think I’ll make my own “rework” thread sometime, not to compete with Burtnik or anything (I think a lot of these ideas are really good and hopefully do get implemented), but I also wanna throw in my own, mostly for fun.

Malchior.5732:

Then make Unrelenting Assault the opposite: it gets stronger the more targets appear, but is weaker in a 1v1.

I was thinking about damage scaling abilities based on numbers of targets up to 100% (20% per one) if there are 5 targets in area but not sure if thats even possible in gw2.

Burtnik.5218:

Malchior.5732:

Then make Unrelenting Assault the opposite: it gets stronger the more targets appear, but is weaker in a 1v1.

I was thinking about damage scaling abilities based on numbers of targets up to 100% (20% per one) if there are 5 targets in area but not sure if thats even possible in gw2.

Well, the Elementalist heal (Arcane Brilliance) does that, it heals for more the more enemies you hit with it. Technically you could just add a 0-dmg PBAoE to each strike as a check on how many targets you have and adjust damage accordingly.

As for sword, I’d have a suggestion for a rather easy fix. If you really want it to be something to single out enemies, you could have its behaviour change according to whether or not you have a target.
Precision Strike without a specific target will do what it does now (minus the hitting random junk).
Precision Strike with a designated target will fire all projectiles at the single target and ignore everything else in vicinity.

Unrelenting Assault could behave in the same way (once you remove the target requirement for the cast).

If you want to add some kind of visibility for counterplay you can just give PS an actual piercing/striking animation (of which there’s already plenty in the game for swords) for the single target and leave the wave animation for the untargeted version.
For UA I don’t know. Easiest could be have your character make a left turn for one and right turn for the other in the animation.

I feel that would improve the sword a lot. You could finally single out targets in a group or decide to keep them busy / keep up pressure with the untargeted versions.

Added Ventari to post with Jalis. Took one GM suggestion from Vere and improved a bit. (had something similiar in mind and that was immobilize on elite skill use)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Revenant-weak-traits-skills-rework/first#post5974322

Burtnik.5218:

Added Ventari to post with Jalis. Took one GM suggestion from Vere and improved a bit. (had something similiar in mind and that was immobilize on elite skill use)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Revenant-weak-traits-skills-rework/first#post5974322

Well this is a different approach to Ventari =p, works as well. But the natural abundance + Eluding nullification gives salvation way too much condi cleanse. The eluding nulification is somewhat risky by itself really.
Tranquil benediction too is somewhat risky because it increases self sustain by a lot a 30%-40% nerf would put it more in line .

Varezenem.2813:

Burtnik.5218:

Added Ventari to post with Jalis. Took one GM suggestion from Vere and improved a bit. (had something similiar in mind and that was immobilize on elite skill use)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Revenant-weak-traits-skills-rework/first#post5974322

Well this is a different approach to Ventari =p works as well. But the natural abundance + Eluding nullification gives salvation way too much condi cleanse. The eluding nulification is somewhat risky by itself really.

You think? If you get condi bombed nothing will save you tbh. Maybe i went overboard with abudance, let me delete it. How rest?

1. Blinding Truths. Striking a blinded foe slows them. 2 sec slow, 5 icd
Not sure if 2 second is too strong .

2. Nourishing Roots. Apply nourishing roots to allies around you (600 radius) in Ventari stance. My aim is to make it work like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Mist
Master

1. Tranquil Benediction. Wielding a staff also provides 150 healing power. Blocking an attack heals you and nearly allies. 500 (0.6), 1 icd
Heals too much (about 1200 per activation) it’s about the same strength as using NH during a block. Would need a 30%~40% nerf

2. Elluding Nullification. Cast Purifying Essence on a dodge. 10cd
It’s hard to judge before the jan 26th patch our condi cleanse was good enough for most cases therefore increasing it is risky. This amount might still be ok.

1.Selfless Amplification – Increased to 2%
Moving from outgoing heal to here. It would be a slight increase in outgoing healing (3%~).

2.Momentary Pacification – Enemy skills that you interrupt have their cooldown increased by 10 seconds. Immobilize enemies that you interrupt (4sec), 10cd. (who made that hm…)
¯\(???)/¯ *
4 seconds might be too strong (druids roots are 5sec) perhaps 2?

3. Natural Abudance – Using a Ventari skill applies regeneration to you and allies. 4sec regen, 240 radius. Regen is centered around tablet

Ventari. Stance focused on supporting allies. Weakness; Lack of selfsustain, group focus

General; Upon swapping to Ventari, tablet appears on revenant location.

2. Purifying Essence. – Added stunbreak. Removed cd

My only problem with no CD is that one could take Ventari just for the cleanses and that would increase the cleanse output to almost 1/sec ,with eluding nulification and staff to 1.5/sec ,averaging 1/sec, that is as strong as a druid and about twice what we have.

3. Natural Harmony. – Removed delay, removed cd. Increased scaling to 0.7
Might need a minor cast time 1/4~1/2 to not be too strong in pvp.
4. Protective Solace. – Projectiles are turned into healing bolts for allies. Removed cd

For the no cooldown+heal the energy cost would have be increased to about 8/sec.

5. Energy Expulsion. – Blast finisher changed to waterfield for 2 seconds. No longer destroys tablet. Shards removed. 5cd
Might want to make the field last longer for the current cost (about 5 secs?).

For PvP these changes are good but It still lacks healing for PvE/Raiding. Since self sustain is more than enough under these changes, increasing the outgoing healing modifiers would be the best way.

A slight extra nerf to condi cleanse might be needed by either removing nullification or giving purifying essence a cooldown.

*see attachment

I wish you luck but any suggestions are probably useless.

I say this as someone who has helped keep suggestion threads alive in the guardian forums for years after they started, threads that had hundreds if not thousands of replies saying they were good ideas, the same threads that never saw so much as an admission or hint on Anet’s end that the guardian skills/traits/weapon skills were not performing at a place that was good.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

I wish you luck but any suggestions are probably useless.

I say this as someone who has helped keep suggestion threads alive in the guardian forums for years after they started, threads that had hundreds if not thousands of replies saying they were good ideas, the same threads that never saw so much as an admission or hint on Anet’s end that the guardian skills/traits/weapon skills were not performing at a place that was good.

They did listen during the beta and ranger shout changes were based on forum feedback.

1.Blinding Truths. Striking a blinded foe slows them. 2 sec slow, 5 icd

Yep, it sounds strong on paper and i would like to see how it play out. But generally i think its a way to go, maybe with raised cd if it end up stronger than i except. Remember its single target btw. Blind on heal trait was actually supposed to be op but i found it mediocre.

2. Tranquil Benediction. Wielding a staff also provides 150 healing power. Blocking an attack heals you and nearly allies. 500 (0.6), 1 icd

Might have overdone it a bit. What numbers would you put in instead? Do you think its right the direction to go?

3. Elluding Nullification. Cast Purifying Essence on a dodge. 10cd

Given how much conditions flying around now thx to reaper i would hold on about that one before judging tbh. If condi spam get reduced (hopefully it will) then we could change it to a lesser version to 2+ lower healing per condi. See https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Bond

4. Momentary Pacification – Enemy skills that you interrupt have their cooldown increased by 10 seconds. Immobilize enemies that you interrupt (4sec), 10cd. (who made that hm…)

Thats the reason why i actually gave it 4sec, but 2 would be fine too i guess in the end. Will edit later.

5. Purifying Essence. – Added stunbreak. Removed cd

Bunker spec probably. Dps spec? Hmm.. i cant imagine dps build using ventari at all, they will melt trying to cure condi.

6. Protective Solace. – Projectiles are turned into healing bolts for allies. Removed cd

I wouldnt mind making it even -10 with 10 energy on activation tbh, its strong. Not due to healing, but due to the fact its a projectile destruction on demand. Then again there arent many meta classes who uses projectiles nowdays, mostly dh and lb ranger/druid. Yah i think raising it to -8 and 10 energy on activation should do it.

7. Energy Expulsion. – Blast finisher changed to waterfield for 2 seconds. No longer destroys tablet. Shards removed. 5cd

Not sure. Water fields are strong in right hands (see engi). I think it would be better stick to 2 and see how it play out.

8. It still lacks healing for PvE/Raiding.

Are you sure? I would hold on and see how it will play out before buffing it more.

9. A slight extra nerf to condi cleanse might be needed by either removing nullification or giving purifying essence a cooldown.

If you cure condi, you dont heal much. If you heal, you dont cure condi. And the radius is small so its not all that easy to pull off outside of yourself.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

I wish you luck but any suggestions are probably useless.

I say this as someone who has helped keep suggestion threads alive in the guardian forums for years after they started, threads that had hundreds if not thousands of replies saying they were good ideas, the same threads that never saw so much as an admission or hint on Anet’s end that the guardian skills/traits/weapon skills were not performing at a place that was good.

If they are overtuned and end on op side then yes i doubt. If we tweak them to okay level (thats why i posted them here in the first place) then might listen. Always worth to try right? Im doing it for fun tbh. Too bad not many people post here tho, rev section is quite.. dead. So it will be a little harder to get correct changes but in the end.. if people like these ideas then it down to tweaking the numbers.

I will leave this thread for 2 days, invo/herald are a bit tricky. Generally i want invo to focus on legend swap, upkeeps and some utility, just cant make up my mind if they should be connected to spending energy. Enhanted Bulwark (herald) was changed to improve protection by 7% btw.

I’m pretty sure on the raid healing part your changes would increase healing in about 10%~20%.
https://youtu.be/r65kDCMrffk

While this guy didn’t use ventari to its max he was still using magis and was barely able to do his job. A zerker druid wouldn’t even sweat…
About tranquil balance cut scaling by a third base and healing by a fifth and It’ll be still pretty good. (About 1050/1900 with clerics/monk runes and staff)

My guestimation says that we would need a about an overall 30%~40% increase in outgoing healing (not the stat). By adding 10%~15% outgoing healing it’ll be there.

@Burtnik:

On Soothing Stone: Your change would make it into Shelter with the Smiter’s Boon and Healer’s Retribution traits thrown in for free, so that’s not unique either. If you want to make it unique, give it something genuinely unique rather than copying off another skill. For the purpose of reducing spikes, one possibility could be to provide the protective petrification effect of RotGD on activating Soothing Stone, to enhance the stone theme. (Possibly even make it so that if you use it when you’re already stone, you get extra healing in lieu of turning to stone.)

Keep in mind that Shelter is actually a pretty poor heal without the block, even by guardian standards (guardian slot-6 heals are relatively weak in terms of the healing they provide, as guardians are balanced to get healing elsewhere: a factor in making Prayer to Dwayna actually worth considering for a human PvE guardian when most professions have clearly better options) – it’s the block that makes it worth taking. Putting that block on another heal that already has several other things going for it is not something to be done lightly.

On Inspiring Reinforcement: Hallowed Ground doesn’t get used in PvP because it has a recharge of over a minute, even with Master of Consecrations. If it had a recharge of 30s or less, allowing for uptime similar to Inspiring Reinforcement, I’d bet it would see a lot more play, especially in the current control-heavy meta. The problems with Inspiring Reinforcement is that it’s easy to see it activating and hit the revenant before they get the first pulse, and that the stability goes away immediately on departing the road. My proposed changes would address those.

On Rite of the Great Dwarf: Thematically, this is a sister skill to Jade Winds. It’s not something that needed upkeep, it was something that was performed and then it was permanent. The main difference between the two, in fact, is that the Jade Wind was indiscriminate and the petrification was fatal, while Rite of the Great Dwarf only affected dwarves and the dwarves were turned into living stone rather than dead statues.

Obviously, you can’t have one Rite of the Great Dwarf used in the countdown turn your entire team to living stone for the match, any more than you can have a Jade Winds cast instantly win the match by turning all your enemies into stone permanently. So the effect has a limited duration and wears off, unlike the historical Rite which was permanent. However, it’s still emphatically not something that can be turned on and off like an upkeep skill.

The main problem with Rite is that it’s easily interrupted (especially crippling as a stunbreak). A block or invulnerability covering the casting time would prevent that (or at least make it harder) while also allowing for a more immediate benefit if it’s the user that’s being subjected to a spike. If the cost/benefit balance is still out, then the cost can be discounted or the duration of the effect increased. No need to make it an upkeep skill and thus even less need to destroy and replace Whirling Hammers, a skill that many people like (apart from the issue with autocancellation on hammer destruction).

Overall, I know you hate it, but many people do like Jalis and consider it to just require a few fixes to be competitive rather than being turned into something entirely different. Taking something that almost works and rebuilding it from the ground up would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater and angering the people who like its current style and just want to hammer out its flaws.

On Ventari: The biggest concern I have is that making Protective Solace into a conversion shield like druid staff 4 seems too strong. Druid staff 4 can be countered by navigating around the wall or waiting it out (along with other ways of dealing with projectile blockers, such as going melee or using non-projectile ranged attacks). A bubble that can be moved almost at will by the user and which can last for as long as the user has the resource to power it is much harder to get around.

Otherwise… no strong feelings either way. You’re removing some things that I think were nice ideas, but I think there’s a point at which ‘nice’ becomes ‘worth trying, but doesn’t work in practise’… which Ventari has a lot of.

@Malchior:

Since you seem to have gone on to make suggestions in a similar direction, it feels like you’ve missed my point that the way to actually make that work in practise would be to make Unrelenting Assault and Precision Strike do more damage when you have multiple targets, to compensate for that damage being more spread out.

Simply making the Unrelenting Assault strikes cleave is a simple and excellent idea that I wish I’d thought up myself. Leave it as it is otherwise – if you have a single target, it does what it does now. If you have multiple targets but they’re spread out, then it’s a bit undesirable. If you have multiple targets bunched up… ouch.

draxynnic.3719:

@Malchior:

Since you seem to have gone on to make suggestions in a similar direction, it feels like you’ve missed my point that the way to actually make that work in practise would be to make Unrelenting Assault and Precision Strike do more damage when you have multiple targets, to compensate for that damage being more spread out.

Simply making the Unrelenting Assault strikes cleave is a simple and excellent idea that I wish I’d thought up myself. Leave it as it is otherwise – if you have a single target, it does what it does now. If you have multiple targets but they’re spread out, then it’s a bit undesirable. If you have multiple targets bunched up… ouch.

Well, the reason I made the suggestion that way was because Precision Strike and Unrelenting Assault currently have a similar role: high damage against a single target, but get “weaker” in groups.
If we flip them both, we’ll end up with two skills having a similar role again. My idea was to give them both some uses regardless of the situation.
Precision Strike would be higher damage in a 1v1 and Unrelenting Assault would be relegated to closing gaps and doing decent damage. However, when in a team fight, Precision Strike is relegated to ranged pressure (or waiting for someone to get singled out) and Unrelenting Assault would force the group to disperse or be potentially fatal for multiple enemies. For UA, I also thought a reduction in number of hits was a good idea because it would allow the skill to be used much more often by allowing a reduction in costs and/or cast time while increasing its strength and evade frames depending on the number of enemies. As is, UA can fail for a lot of reasons and I’d like it to be a lot more reliable at its job (which is a bit of an issue with a lot of Revenant skills right now). It would also open up an interesting combo with Axe 5 or potentially Taunt if Jalis gets polished up.

Burtnik.5218:

Opportune Extraction. Torment has increased damage to stationary foes by 100%. (equal damage to mobile foes)

3. Venom Enhancement. Cd reduced to 10. Poison also deals 33% more damage

Anything less than 100% would be a farce. And the icd for VE should be at most 5 seconds. Given the fact that it’s 30 right now and poison is as weak as it is without stacks, this trait(and frankly the other 2 it’s paired with) is a huge joke.

Also, almost all of your suggestions are entirely centered around PvP gameplay. If this is how GW2 balances their game…. I don’t even know….. I’m having a hard time thinking of something radical enough, beyond quitting, to express my outrage.

They either need to split the specs or just tell everyone that plays PvE to pretty much kitten off and bow down to a mode that takes 33% of the game.

iroh.2871:

Burtnik.5218:

Opportune Extraction. Torment has increased damage to stationary foes by 100%. (equal damage to mobile foes)

3. Venom Enhancement. Cd reduced to 10. Poison also deals 33% more damage

Anything less than 100% would be a farce. And the icd for VE should be at most 5 seconds. Given the fact that it’s 30 right now and poison is as weak as it is without stacks, this trait(and frankly the other 2 it’s paired with) is a huge joke.

Also, almost all of your suggestions are entirely centered around PvP gameplay. If this is how GW2 balances their game…. I don’t even know….. I’m having a hard time thinking of something radical enough, beyond quitting, to express my outrage.

They either need to split the specs or just tell everyone that plays PvE to pretty much kitten off and bow down to a mode that takes 33% of the game.

Most of his changes are actually fine for PvE.
The poison trait at 5 seconds would be a bit much as it would equate to permanent poison application just from applying any sort of consistent Torment and would allow Mace to stack crazy amounts of it. 10 seconds would be fair in PvE, but also wouldn’t make it ridiculous if used in PvP. It’s just an Adept trait after all.

The Torment damage trait, even if it’s at 75%, would still make Torment stronger than a regular Bleed stack.
However, if it’s at a 100%, that removes any interesting aspect Torment may have had and just makes it clearly superior in every single way.

That could be an issue in PvP since it introduces a clearly superior condition that is almost as, if not more, spammable than Bleeds and removes the small counter-play it had.

Let me remind you that Condi Revenant does have viable DPS right now. It needs tweaks and some help, but it doesn’t need its traits and skills to be overblown for PvE. It should have high-ish DPS due to being a melee condi build, but also have glaring weaknesses; this allows it to function in all modes, but be punishable in PvP and WvW.

That being said, I agree that split balancing should happen, but these changes don’t really hurt Revenant much in PvE if they were to happen, but greatly improve a lot of aspects in PvP and WvW (that means 66% of the game if you want to treat it like that). These changes also don’t reflect anything Arenanet does or wants. They’re just suggestions.

Condi revenant does not have viable dps in PvE, due to the weakness of torment vs too many mobs and bosses that stands still.

But how about a trait that works like this? Like a trait that gives you a stacking damage buff the longer you fight a mob with torment on them. Perhaps capped by their number of torment stacks.

LucianDK.8615:

Condi revenant does not have viable dps in PvE, due to the weakness of torment vs too many mobs and bosses that stands still.

But how about a trait that works like this? Like a trait that gives you a stacking damage buff the longer you fight a mob with torment on them. Perhaps capped by their number of torment stacks.

Considering how low your DPS can be and still be able to kill the raid bosses, yea, the DPS is technically viable. Not good, but technically usable.

draxynnic.3719:

On Soothing Stone: Your change would make it into Shelter with the Smiter’s Boon and Healer’s Retribution traits thrown in for free, so that’s not unique either. If you want to make it unique, give it something genuinely unique rather than copying off another skill. For the purpose of reducing spikes, one possibility could be to provide the protective petrification effect of RotGD on activating Soothing Stone, to enhance the stone theme. (Possibly even make it so that if you use it when you’re already stone, you get extra healing in lieu of turning to stone.)

My main gripe is this heal being quite easy to interrupt unlike Glint and that unlike Glint, Jalis has no ow kitten button. Block seems to the most reasonable option in this case as you have counterplay to it. We could ofc change it to stone theme where you take 0 damage from direct attack like endure pain, evade (which doesnt fit dwarfs) or invul which lack counterplay.

While your idea sounds cool i have to ask what if someone just interrupt their own healing to gain the buff? We can prevent this situation by putting the skill on full cd in this case but then again.. what stop someone from interrupting your heal without effort? Stab could be the answer but with the amount of boon strip/steal/corruption its not really a viable option anymore. Im interesing to hear your idea about that one

draxynnic.3719:

On Inspiring Reinforcement: Hallowed Ground doesn’t get used in PvP because it has a recharge of over a minute, even with Master of Consecrations. If it had a recharge of 30s or less, allowing for uptime similar to Inspiring Reinforcement, I’d bet it would see a lot more play, especially in the current control-heavy meta. The problems with Inspiring Reinforcement is that it’s easy to see it activating and hit the revenant before they get the first pulse, and that the stability goes away immediately on departing the road. My proposed changes would address those

Even with reduced recharge it wont see much play as stand your ground is superior by miles. 5 insta aoe stab stack in 600 radius. Problem with these abilities is that like i mentioned earlier – they are not practical in this game desing.

On Rite of the Great Dwarf: Thematically, this is a sister skill to Jade Winds. It’s not something that needed upkeep, it was something that was performed and then it was permanent. The main difference between the two, in fact, is that the Jade Wind was indiscriminate and the petrification was fatal, while Rite of the Great Dwarf only affected dwarves and the dwarves were turned into living stone rather than dead statues.

Obviously, you can’t have one Rite of the Great Dwarf used in the countdown turn your entire team to living stone for the match, any more than you can have a Jade Winds cast instantly win the match by turning all your enemies into stone permanently. So the effect has a limited duration and wears off, unlike the historical Rite which was permanent. However, it’s still emphatically not something that can be turned on and off like an upkeep skill.

You do realize that you should not balance the skill or a profession around the lore right? Following lore you should be able to see all invisible, be completely immune to blinds, impossible odds transfer condi, grasping shadow would banish your target into another dimension.

While it is generally wrong against lore, it makes more sense to make it as upkeep instead from balance point, otherwise you end up with half fuctional skill. It has potential to be broken in teamfights when paired with protection, but useless elsewhere if you dont have anything to support it. High energy, long cast, short duration, weak effect on it own thus useless for rev outside of teamfight if you dont have protection (herald). So atm we have a skill that is nearly useless to rev, but decent to allies. As far i remember Jalis was supposed to be the tanky one for rev.

Now while it has potential to be decent with herald, question is.. should we balance core to elite spec or elite spec to core? Cus we both know that more and more elites show up in the future. Not sure about you but i dont want to end up in a situation where one legend is good with x elite spec, but complete trash with another one.

The main problem with Rite is that it’s easily interrupted (especially crippling as a stunbreak). A block or invulnerability covering the casting time would prevent that (or at least make it harder) while also allowing for a more immediate benefit if it’s the user that’s being subjected to a spike. If the cost/benefit balance is still out, then the cost can be discounted or the duration of the effect increased. No need to make it an upkeep skill and thus even less need to destroy and replace Whirling Hammers, a skill that many people like (apart from the issue with autocancellation on hammer destruction).

Generally speaking you can cover Rite with stab on dodge so thats not really a issue unless you use it to stunbreak.. which wont happen a lot.
And who said i plan to destroy vengeful hammers? They can still be here just not as upkeep. Recasting them once every 5sec is not a big deal i believe.

draxynnic.3719:

Overall, I know you hate it, but many people do like Jalis and consider it to just require a few fixes to be competitive rather than being turned into something entirely different. Taking something that almost works and rebuilding it from the ground up would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater and angering the people who like its current style and just want to hammer out its flaws.

I dont think theres many people who like road actually. Hammers i can understand – love them myself but road..i still dont know what road has to do with dwarfs? If it was Bob the Builder legend then i could understand it at least.

draxynnic.3719:

On Ventari: The biggest concern I have is that making Protective Solace into a conversion shield like druid staff 4 seems too strong. Druid staff 4 can be countered by navigating around the wall or waiting it out (along with other ways of dealing with projectile blockers, such as going melee or using non-projectile ranged attacks). A bubble that can be moved almost at will by the user and which can last for as long as the user has the resource to power it is much harder to get around.

Im moving away from that idea so doesnt matter.

Btw soon i will upload a vid.. and based on that i will ask few questions.

Burtnik.5218:

My main gripe is this heal being quite easy to interrupt unlike Glint and that unlike Glint, Jalis has no ow kitten button. Block seems to the most reasonable option in this case as you have counterplay to it. We could ofc change it to stone theme where you take 0 damage from direct attack like endure pain, evade (which doesnt fit dwarfs) or invul which lack counterplay.

While your idea sounds cool i have to ask what if someone just interrupt their own healing to gain the buff? We can prevent this situation by putting the skill on full cd in this case but then again.. what stop someone from interrupting your heal without effort? Stab could be the answer but with the amount of boon strip/steal/corruption its not really a viable option anymore. Im interesing to hear your idea about that one

Most heals can be easily interrupted if someone manages to land one in time. If you look at the most popular healing skills for each profession in PvP, almost all have cast times of a second or more and no protection against being interrupted.

The counter to the possibility of interruption is to not let yourself get interrupted… or to drop a road first and then heal, or, as you say for RotGD, dodge and then heal. Note, though, that protection of stability is something I was considering in the proposal to make all dwarf skills covered by stability through a trait – once you’ve added stability to Soothing Stone, Inspiring Reinforcement and RotGD, you might as well add it to everything.

Even with reduced recharge it wont see much play as stand your ground is superior by miles. 5 insta aoe stab stack in 600 radius. Problem with these abilities is that like i mentioned earlier – they are not practical in this game desing.

I’d contest that. Hallowed Ground has a longer duration and secondary benefits as well. I’d certainly consider it if it had a short enough recharge, either on its own or in conjunction with Stand Your Ground.

You do realize that you should not balance the skill or a profession around the lore right? Following lore you should be able to see all invisible, be completely immune to blinds, impossible odds transfer condi, grasping shadow would banish your target into another dimension.

While it is generally wrong against lore, it makes more sense to make it as upkeep instead from balance point, otherwise you end up with half fuctional skill. It has potential to be broken in teamfights when paired with protection, but useless elsewhere if you dont have anything to support it. High energy, long cast, short duration, weak effect on it own thus useless for rev outside of teamfight if you dont have protection (herald). So atm we have a skill that is nearly useless to rev, but decent to allies. As far i remember Jalis was supposed to be the tanky one for rev.

I think that when there are two ways of balancing something, it should be balanced according to lore by preference. This goes double for the revenant, which is a profession that relies so heavily on the lore due to its identity. Jalis with RotGD being an upkeep skill that is purely personal in effect would be like Shiro with Jade Winds turned into a single-target stun – it just wouldn’t fit.

I really don’t see how it has to be an upkeep skill to work. My suggestion of covering it with a personal block or invulnerability helps it to be that panic button you’re talking about with Soothing Stone, and makes it more useful for the solo rev in general (although often, tbh? My panic button with Jalis is Vengeful Hammers. Depending on the circumstance, they can actually help quite a lot between the damage reduction and healing, especially if you’re facing a minion master necro). Plenty of other skills in the game work by providing a defensive buff to you and your allies for a duration, and there’s no reason that’s not workable here.

Apart from the problem that it’s Jalis’ stunbreak while being easily interruptable, the only thing I see that needs to be further balanced is the cost/duration ratio. You’re trying to claim it’s worthless, but 50% reduction of all damage for you and your allies is actually pretty noticeable. If there’s a problem at all, it’s that RotGD is providing its effect at a cost of 10 energy per second and some casting time, while Facet of Chaos provides a lot of the same benefit at a cost of 5 energy per second. If you increased the duration of RotGD to 10 seconds, it would probably become OP relative to Facet of Chaos. There’s probably a middle ground in there where they’re roughly equally competitive options.

And who said i plan to destroy vengeful hammers? They can still be here just not as upkeep. Recasting them once every 5sec is not a big deal i believe.

Changing from an upkeep skill to a regular skill is a pretty fundamental rework.

I dont think theres many people who like road actually. Hammers i can understand – love them myself but road..i still dont know what road has to do with dwarfs? If it was Bob the Builder legend then i could understand it at least.

Dwarfs are builders, so that’s probably exactly the effect they were going for. Also, there were people who loved it in its pre-BWE3 state. There was a video of someone playing a PvP match during the beta weekends who was abusing the kitten out of it.

It’s not so liked now because BWE3 overnerfed it almost to the point of uselessness.

draxynnic.3719:

Most heals can be easily interrupted if someone manages to land one in time. If you look at the most popular healing skills for each profession in PvP, almost all have cast times of a second or more and no protection against being interrupted.

The counter to the possibility of interruption is to not let yourself get interrupted… or to drop a road first and then heal, or, as you say for RotGD, dodge and then heal. Note, though, that protection of stability is something I was considering in the proposal to make all dwarf skills covered by stability through a trait – once you’ve added stability to Soothing Stone, Inspiring Reinforcement and RotGD, you might as well add it to everything.

Rev has 2 healing skills tho, for that reason he need a bit faster casttimes. Not sure if retal doesnt fit dwarf better btw (looking at healing skill) but problem is we have one Jalis trait actually.. It could also be abused by vengeful hammers – i can already imagine reactivating it over and over just for stab. Those are the thing you have to take into account. Trait with icd? Hm..no ty. Unless this game allow me to see hidden cd’s ill never support them.

I’d contest that. Hallowed Ground has a longer duration and secondary benefits as well. I’d certainly consider it if it had a short enough recharge, either on its own or in conjunction with Stand Your Ground.

Theres not much use Hallowed Ground outside of spvp point so i dont really see a reason to even consider it, let it be pve, and even more so in wvw. A zerk rev wont be able to stay on a point btw so that actually eliminates road from Jalis kit – and we dont have 4th utility to swap it.

You’re trying to claim it’s worthless, but 50% reduction of all damage for you and your allies is actually pretty noticeable.

My vid disagrees. If Rite reduction was any good i would be able to stand much more than i am able to do so atm.

I could have used block instead but i needed some material. 5,5k from rapid fire.. with protection it would be only 17% more aka 6,4k, 10% in case of tempest – 6k.

I have 2650 toughness btw. In my eyes Rite is worthless for 50 energy cost, huge cast, low duration. Imho if rite is supposed to stay it they way it is it should definitely reduce damage by 100% like endure pain. You cant hurt stone after all, right?

When i look at my vid i wonder what bs it is actually. Now what if it was under group focus? I would melt. Hard. 50% is worthless. Necro in Shroud gains 50% reduction. Most necros ingame doesnt even know about that reduction. And for a good reason.

But nvm, here is the problem.. going by lore it should be a group skill which means i am left with one less skill playing solo as it is balanced around group gameplay. What should win here in this case? Worthless utility for non bunker herald in the name of lore or actual gameplay making it useful for all types for rev?

Changing from an upkeep skill to a regular skill is a pretty fundamental rework

Kinda, but the concept itself doesnt change. You still have spinning hammers, they still do the same job.

Dwarfs are builders, so that’s probably exactly the effect they were going for. Also, there were people who loved it in its pre-BWE3 state. There was a video of someone playing a PvP match during the beta weekends who was abusing the kitten out of it.

Are dwarfs roadmens now? Well..thats new. I do know they are builders but i still fail to see connection to roads. That vid was probably me btw.. I know i had one like that where i spammed Jalis road off cd in spvp and didnt used anything else really.

Now the questions as i uploaded my mlg vid with 2 noob thieves
https://youtu.be/qdYIhaOfkns

1. Shiro heal – do you its okay that i am forced to use vengeful hammers just to trigger them? Be honest, if it wasnt for hammers they would wreck me under all these ckittentle chance to actually trigger them outside of UA under presented pressure. That doesnt really fit Shiro being the macho jumping into horde of enemies and wiping floor with them, does it?

Min 3..if i tried to trigger em i would die, simple as that. Shiro healed me for a whole.. 1,6k on 30cd. Wohoo? Op nerf nao.

At the end of the vid? Doesnt matter if i casted them or not.. no chance to trigger without dying = worthless healing skill that doesnt do it job.

So yep, i see no reason to keep it in current state. You may say its l2p issue or something, but it happens to all revs in the game all the time. Even from oRNG as i have seen on my own eyes Daishi (i think that was him name) melting with 5 daggers left.

2. Do you think dwarf road would be useful in this fight when i jump all over the place? Stand on it and let them do w/e they want? Yeah, good idea. Lets die for 1 stack of stab, np. Worthless skill outside of conquest point.

3. I gottay say the hammers did great work at keeping me alive, but thats due to carrying poorly designed Shiro heal mostly, life siphon traits+lifesteal food. 20% reduction is just weak.

4. Im too vulnerable during Jalis heal. It would be way different it it had mentioned block so i could prevent a lot of damage. With Glint i would faceroll them tbh. But i thought it will be a good material for a vid so i wanted to fight them instead and record it.. and well i dont play herald in pvp anymore either way.

5. Damage from precision strike and ua is reduced way too much when 2+ targets show up. The projectiles at range miss too much as well. UA breaking on stealth doesnt help either – it wouldnt happen if it was single target skill.

6. Grasping Shadow. If it was a stun i could use that and maybe hit the rezzing thief, but bc it would teleport me back if i hit downed body is too much of a risk to even try.

Prepatch i would deal 10% damage from auto and precision strike would be just like it is now -1 projectile. “Singling out enemies” what a bad joke it is?

(Btw. Fix sword block, at one point its noticeable in vid that i take hit beforeblock animation goes off. Thief slow is broken as kitten too.)

Burtnik.5218:

Rev has 2 healing skills tho, for that reason he need a bit faster casttimes.

Considering that the revenant heals are similar in efficiency to the single heals of most other professions, I don’t see how having two of them is a disadvantage that requires faster cast times or powerful defences as compensation.

Theres not much use Hallowed Ground outside of spvp point so i dont really see a reason to even consider it, let it be pve, and even more so in wvw. A zerk rev wont be able to stay on a point btw so that actually eliminates road from Jalis kit – and we dont have 4th utility to swap it.

I’ve used Hallowed Ground in PvE. In situations where you’re facing a lot of crowd control, being able to lay it down and not have to worry about it (or be able to worry about it a lot less) for ten seconds is definitely worthwhile. By the time that ten seconds is up, you’ve drawn out their control effects and probably killed a couple as well, and the fact that you then have a 70s downtime is less important.

I think you’re discounting how useful Inspiring Reinforcement can be even now. In PvE, I see it get used fairly frequently in boss fights where control effects are in play… although it’s frustrating as heck when you get hit by the control effect anyway because the road was two slow to block a control effect that didn’t start until after you activated the road, or because allies took up the 5 target limit and you missed out. In PvP, it can be used to secure a stomp, including an ally’s stomp.

Sure, it’s not Stand Your Ground, but Stand Your Ground isn’t a revenant skill. Nor does it have a 10s recharge for the potential to be in play 50% of the time.

It definitely needs improvement, yes, but I think you’re rebuilding the chassis where fresh tyres would do (on this skill and on Jalis in general).

My vid disagrees. If Rite reduction was any good i would be able to stand much more than i am able to do so atm.

{snip}

I could have used block instead but i needed some material. 5,5k from rapid fire.. with protection it would be only 17% more aka 6,4k, 10% in case of tempest – 6k.

I have 2650 toughness btw. In my eyes Rite is worthless for 50 energy cost, huge cast, low duration. Imho if rite is supposed to stay it they way it is it should definitely reduce damage by 100% like endure pain. You cant hurt stone after all, right?

It’s hard to see what’s going on here, but it looks like you took the first two thousand damage before Rite triggered. After the Rite status indicator comes up, you go from taking about a thousand damage per arrow to under five hundred. So the net effect of the Rite was only about a 37.5% reduction of the damage from the Rapid Fire (there’s also the wolf damage in there, and possibly the firefly as well – those are harder to quantify)

With my suggestion, you’d be blocking/invulnerable for those initial hits rather than completely unprotected, making a net 62.5% reduction. More if the version granting a 2s block is used.

If 50% against everything is worthless, wouldn’t 40% (or 33%) against direct damage (that can be stripped or corrupted, no less) only be even more worthless? I don’t see people saying Protection is bad… Defenses are supposed to make you harder to kill, not turn you into a colossus that can take everything that gets thrown at it and come out with little more than scratched paintwork (and we know very well from GW1 that stone dwarves could be harmed and killed, they’re just tougher than flesh-and-blood dwarves).

Revenant is the only profession with upkeep skills at all. Other professions rely entirely on ‘use the skill, get the boon for a limited period, then wait until you can use the skill again’ mechanics. Revenant has the advantage that they can use Rite back-to-back in a pinch. You say the problems are long cast, high energy cost, low duration – covering the cast time is one of the things I’ve suggested, (making it as much an advantage as a disadvantage) as is altering the cost/duration ratio if that isn’t enough. My suggestions cover that problem without needing to toss out the skill and start anew.

Yes, it’s balanced for group play. So is Jade Winds, and I don’t see you saying that should be made single-target so it can be made cheaper and more useful in 1v1. Some skills are more efficient 1v1, some are more efficient as part of a group. That’s the game.

Keep the chassis, replace the tyres. Then you don’t need to change Vengeful Hammers at all.