Guild Wars 2

Real quick, can we get a word on how specifically this will work?

Currently, the tooltip suggests fury is giving 30% crit chance. (50% effectiveness boost.)
In actuality, it made fury grant 50% crit boost. (boost effectiveness to 50%)

What is the intended functionality?

Hint: Please be 50%!!!

I believe it’s intended functionality, as it was among reported Revenant “bugs for clarification” and wasn’t touched with the update.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Currently intended to increase effectiveness by 50%. So it’ll increase fury from 20% critical-hit chance to 30%. That bug was fixed internally and was just a display bug from my understanding.

The trait’s description is a bit misleading/ confusing, nonetheless.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Currently intended to increase effectiveness by 50%. So it’ll increase fury from 20% critical-hit chance to 30%. That bug was fixed internally and was just a display bug from my understanding.

Thanks for the reply!

Doesn’t a conditional 10% crit chance seem slightly low for a GM trait though? (No judgies!)

ronpierce.2760:

Thanks for the reply!

Doesn’t a conditional 10% crit chance seem slightly low for a GM trait though? (No judgies!)

I agree with that. Making fury stronger seems quite GM-worthy at first glance, until you do the math and realize that it’s merely a conditional +10% critical chance trait. It ends up not being that much stronger than your average +7% damage trait, and it’s probably weaker than those party-wide +150 power/ precision traits, and none of them are grandmaster traits.

Yeah for a GM trait it really should be either a 100% increase (so from 20% to 40%) or just a flat 50% from fury.

probably the 100% increase to 40% would be a good place to start testing from imo.

10% is a huge increase lol. Don’t see it as 10%, you go from 20% to 30%… Looks the same on paper but the approach is different.

Vornollo.5182:

10% is a huge increase lol. Don’t see it as 10%, you go from 20% to 30%… Looks the same on paper but the approach is different.

Thief gains 10% damage when a target has ANY condition on it as a GM minor. Compare that to 10% crit chance only when you have fury up which can also fairly easily be ripped these days. It’s really not that strong… The trait is a 10% crit boost, you’d have any fury you’d have otherwise regardless of this trait.

ronpierce.2760:

Vornollo.5182:

10% is a huge increase lol. Don’t see it as 10%, you go from 20% to 30%… Looks the same on paper but the approach is different.

Thief gains 10% damage when a target has ANY condition on it as a GM minor. Compare that to 10% crit chance only when you have fury up which can also fairly easily be ripped these days. It’s really not that strong… The trait is a 10% crit boost, you’d have any fury you’d have otherwise regardless of this trait.

The bigger issue is not how weak 10% extra crit chance is for a GM, but the fact that its based on a boon you have pretty weak uptime of.

You don’t really want to base your build around swapping legends on cd, and fury on heal/stunbreak are situational, so realistically your fury uptime is pretty low, and unlike No Quarter, Roiling Mists doesn’t do zilch to help you keep up your fury.

Its a pretty poor GM, overall – the whole fury ‘thing’ of Invocation needs looking at, for a 7% flat minor I expect an easy 100% uptime on it.

By comparison, No Quarter is 16.6% more critical damage, on top giving you essentially 100% fury uptime.

Roiling Mists, together with Fierce Infusion and Incensed Response (so spending all of the traits in the line for fury) will give you something like 25% fury uptime in a (pvp/wvw) fight.

Mathematically, this works out to spending 3 minors and adept/master/grandmaster to get stunbreak on legend and a ~12.5% dps boost with the marauder amulet. And you’ve spent the entire specialization line to do that.

In any other class, you get that from a minor and a major, leaving you 4 other traits to get cool stuff from.

Taverius.8645:

ronpierce.2760:

Vornollo.5182:

10% is a huge increase lol. Don’t see it as 10%, you go from 20% to 30%… Looks the same on paper but the approach is different.

Thief gains 10% damage when a target has ANY condition on it as a GM minor. Compare that to 10% crit chance only when you have fury up which can also fairly easily be ripped these days. It’s really not that strong… The trait is a 10% crit boost, you’d have any fury you’d have otherwise regardless of this trait.

The bigger issue is not how weak 10% extra crit chance is for a GM, but the fact that its based on a boon you have pretty weak uptime of.

You don’t really want to base your build around swapping legends on cd, and fury on heal/stunbreak are situational, so realistically your fury uptime is pretty low, and unlike the No Quarter, Roiling Mists doesn’t do zilch to help you keep up your fury.

Its a pretty poor GM, overall – the whole fury ‘thing’ of Invocation and the minors need looking at, for a 7% flat minor I expect an easy 100% uptime on it.

I tend to agree, I’ve fairly surprised with the Fury access in Invocation. I’d rather they rework the Heal and Stunbreak fury and make them more reliable and buff this GM to be more impactful for what it does. 100% effectiveness bonus (40% from fury) coupled with swap and a newly designed fury uptime trait would really make a fury build start to take focus. Like instead of fury on healing, just make it a very short 2 second fury when using an ability that costs Energy, or anything along those lines. Even with a 1 or 2 sec ICD would be perfect. That’d free one of the traits up to be something much less situational, and maybe not even Fury related.

Not sure it’s really a great idea to have so many fury traits in one line. Right now you have 3 just to get fury and 1 that benefits from fury and 1 that boosts fury… That’s a bit much… A new rolling fury trait in master and something else in the minor tree would be great.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Yeah it could be potentially raised, might be a bit too weak atm.

It is too weak. Right now it’s GM trait that gives +10% crit chance that has heavy requirements of actually having a buff we have low/short access to. That’s subpar to many other professions’ traits that have lower tier majors/minors giving 10% crit chance to targets who have X condition on them or are within/without Y range.

So yeah, it should be a lot stronger or changed entirely.

Some comparisons

Engineer

1. Firearms Minor “Hematic Focus” , +10% crit chance against bleeding foes (bleed on engie is easy)

Firearms Adept trait “High Caliber”, +10% crit chance to enemies within 240 range.

Warrior
Arms Master trait “Blademaster” +20% crit chance with swords vs bleeding foes (for sword war that’s always :P)

That’s just some of them They are either minors, adept or master traits that are all better than Rev GM trait.

It’s definitely too weak for a GM, but I think people are doing the math wrong on this. The effectiveness of an extra percent of crit depends on a lot of factors if you’re going condi builds, where condition procing, existing precision and attack frequency (only if there’s ICD on those procs), condition damage, and condition duration are all key factors in how much additional damage you end up doing, and for straight dps, you’re gaining a percentage of your critical damage trait, so your ferocity determines how much extra damage each percent of crit chance gains you.

Fury uptime is for sure an issue, that would need to be pretty close to 100% uptime for the trait to be particularly good, and even then it probably needs a numbers buff. Adding a high uptime fury proc and an extra 10% to the trait probably makes it too good in that slot though, so fury procing is probably better off in a different line, or some of the weapon/legend skills would need it added.

Redesigning the trait to do something more interesting is always an option too; since you get Fury on Legend swap, making Fury give different bonuses in different Legends could be interesting, rather than a straight numbers increase, possibly in addition to an increased crit chance. Damage reduction in Jalis, Outgoing Healing Effectiveness in Ventari, crit damage or move/attack speed in shiro, condi damage or condition duration or less condition damage/duration for conditions applied to you for Mallyx. That way when you swap in you get this momentary role effectiveness buff, but you’d need to rely on allies buffing you to get enough Fury uptime to maintain those bonuses, so it doesn’t step on the other two GM traits that much.

Biggest advantage of that kind of approach is that it makes it so that the first two minors aren’t mostly useless when you’re switching to support roles; Invocation is supposed to play nice with any Legend choice, and those first two minors are really only useful if you’re aiming for damage roles. If I’m trying to heal up or soak hits for my allies an extra bit of crit chance and 7% more damage aren’t going to make a lot of difference. Though this is maybe actually an argument for rolling that into the master minor trait, and just making Roiling Mists a really good crit focused option.

It should also be noted that Maniacal Persistence becomes fairly redundant if it’s an optimal strategy to get high fury uptime and run Invocation.

That 10% extra crit damage needs 80% crit rate and fury up all the time to be a flat 10% damage. Not happening a lot.
Not a bad trait, but shouln’t compete with other GM

Maniacal Persistance is all around bad too, though. Seeing as how it resets every time you crit, it’s very underwhelming and take too long to churn out a critical hit on low crit chance builds… I’m more focused on Roiling Mist because crit/fury is a focus of Invocation and is at least some what reliable.

Kidel.2057:

That 10% extra crit damage needs 80% crit rate and fury up all the time to be a flat 10% damage. Not happening a lot.
Not a bad trait, but shouln’t compete with other GM

What extra 10% crit damage? The trait gives an extra 10% crit chance.

ronpierce.2760:

Maniacal Persistance is all around bad too, though. Seeing as how it resets every time you crit, it’s very underwhelming and take too long to churn out a critical hit on low crit chance builds… I’m more focused on Roiling Mist because crit/fury is a focus of Invocation and is at least some what reliable.

That’s easily fixed with some numbers tweaks though; if it went up by say, 5 or 10% every second instead of 2, for instance. Whereas a high fury uptime with large bonuses to fury crit chance fills the same role of making up for low crit, just in a different and mutually exclusive way. Having two ways to do the same thing isn’t a great design choice for traits, one is going to generally be superior, and the other rarely used.

Eolirin.1830:

Kidel.2057:

That 10% extra crit damage needs 80% crit rate and fury up all the time to be a flat 10% damage. Not happening a lot.
Not a bad trait, but shouln’t compete with other GM

What extra 10% crit damage? The trait gives an extra 10% crit chance.

Yeah, sorry, I got confused. However it doesn’t change that much.
“That 10% extra crit rate needs +50% crit damage and fury up all the time to be a flat 10% damage. Not happening a lot.
Not a bad trait, but shouln’t compete with other GM”

Sure, though you also get 7% just from having fury, so with +50% you get a flat 17%, which is a little bit better (actually, might be a tiny bit higher than that if those bonuses are multiplicative rather than additive). Number definitely is too low, mind, but the real problem is the fury uptime, and that flat percentage bonus traits are kind of boring for grandmasters; there’s not really any play to the trait.

They need to give revenants other ways of getting fury. Right now the numbers for the GM make it unworthy AND you have to factor in that revs don’t have reliable sources for fury other than a heal skill and breaking out of a stun (and how often does that happen?) Have a look at a remorseless rangers, they have numerous sources of reliable fury (pet swap trait, weapon swap, GS trait, warhorn). If they are going to make this fury GM a “thing” then they need more synergy with other traits and skills.

With all respect guys, this topic along with the mobility topic really shows that people are expecting too much. Fury and swiftness are a luxury and not something you should expect 100% uptime of without making sacrifices. It seems like what people are asking for is high mobility, permanent fury, permanent swiftness, high damage reduction, high damage (ranged and melee), reflects, high healing and the list goes on.

This if course doesn’t have anything to do with the major trait being a little on the underpowered side, but I felt like mentioning it. We’re discussing 1 out of 9 classes here. Not what would be the most optimal and perfect class to push all others out of the meta.

Again, I will point to the remorseless ranger and say that they have better fury uptime right now. The damage modifiers outside the power line in general are not good enough atm compared to other classes.

xarallei.4279:

They need to give revenants other ways of getting fury. Right now the numbers for the GM make it unworthy AND you have to factor in that revs don’t have reliable sources for fury other than a heal skill and breaking out of a stun (and how often does that happen?) Have a look at a remorseless rangers, they have numerous sources of reliable fury (pet swap trait, weapon swap, GS trait, warhorn). If they are going to make this fury GM a “thing” then they need more synergy with other traits and skills.

That’s why I’m considering this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Superior-Rune-of-the-Scholar-or/first#post5297097

Rune of Rage can provide almost 100% fury uptime, that means a huge boost on Revenant.

Bovan.9481:

With all respect guys, this topic along with the mobility topic really shows that people are expecting too much. Fury and swiftness are a luxury and not something you should expect 100% uptime of without making sacrifices. It seems like what people are asking for is high mobility, permanent fury, permanent swiftness, high damage reduction, high damage (ranged and melee), reflects, high healing and the list goes on.

This if course doesn’t have anything to do with the major trait being a little on the underpowered side, but I felt like mentioning it. We’re discussing 1 out of 9 classes here. Not what would be the most optimal and perfect class to push all others out of the meta.

Honesty, specifically in this case, it has less to do with expectancy and more to do with noticeably weak traits. Namely, the Grand Masters, when compared to other classes, are just not that great. I mean if you REALLY think about it:

Manical Persistance gives you 2% chance better to critical hit every 1 second and resets when you crit. with high crit you’re barely gaining anything and with low crit you get a free crit like once every 8-20 seconds, obviously incredibly variable.

Roiling Mists is a mere 10% crit trait… With a requirement of having Fury up.

Similar could be said by a lot of these traits, but the point is, these trait slots are often fairly build defining, but these traits are hardly adept/master worthy.

Even look at this:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/No_Quarter
While under fury, you extend fury when hit (able to maintain 100% fury from this GM trait).
AND 250 ferocity which is (250/15) 16.66% crit damage when you have fury.

Please relate the two, the difference is immense.

Swiftness is not a luxury lol. Even mesmer has 98% swiftness uptime.
Revenant now may have 90% with impossible odds however. Still the slowest class out there, but survivable.

Fury is not a luxury either. Ranger a Guardian get a lot of it, and I’m sure they can get 100% uptime with Superior Rune of Rage (even Revenant can do it with that rune).
Also Engineer, and without the rune.

Fury was hard to get before last patch, now is just a normal boon.

ronpierce.2760:

Honesty, specifically in this case, it has less to do with expectancy and more to do with noticeably weak traits. Namely, the Grand Masters, when compared to other classes, are just not that great. I mean if you REALLY think about it:

I’m aware of it, and I tried wording out my post to say I agreed. I mean I feel if a trait line has minor and effects which require a certain condition, the trait line should provide high (75%+) uptime on said condition as well. For Invocation that would be Fury.

It’s just getting a little silly that people in other topics are asking for literally everything they can think of.

Bovan.9481:

ronpierce.2760:

Honesty, specifically in this case, it has less to do with expectancy and more to do with noticeably weak traits. Namely, the Grand Masters, when compared to other classes, are just not that great. I mean if you REALLY think about it:

I’m aware of it, and I tried wording out my post to say I agreed. I mean I feel if a trait line has minor and effects which require a certain condition, the trait line should provide high (75%+) uptime on said condition as well. For Invocation that would be Fury.

It’s just getting a little silly that people in other topics are asking for literally everything they can think of.

I think, at least in my case, and I assume most people are on the same page. But my goal isn’t to make Rev OP, I don’t want the best OOC mobility, I don’t want the best traits or condition removal, that sort of thing. But I DO want a well rounded class that doesn’t put all of its eggs in one basket that ends up with a dps build with essentially no Condition removal and no OOC mobility that isn’t rigged to high heaven by exploiting legend swapping.

I mean, if you really take a look and compare some things, Revenant is still lacking in a lot of ways. Their damage issues and weapon-to-legend issues have been mostly fixed, and that’s great! But there are some things it still needs to be a well rounded and well-designed stand-alone class that doesn’t rely too heavily on poor gimmicks. That’s all.

Yeah in hindsight this wasn’t the topic I should have… let’s call it vented in. It wasn’t directed at you. But just like you I want a functioning class that has it’s place. If the devs are getting feedback about what the class ’’needs’’ from other people and they mention every little thing possible, it’s just going to become difficult to pick out the real issues.

But this is getting way off-topic in a so far really constructive topic. I’ll leave it here along with an apology for posting here and not somewhere more relevant.

Bovan.9481:

Yeah in hindsight this wasn’t the topic I should have… let’s call it vented in. It wasn’t directed at you. But just like you I want a functioning class that has it’s place. If the devs are getting feedback about what the class ’’needs’’ from other people and they mention every little thing possible, it’s just going to become difficult to pick out the real issues.

You also do want to keep in mind that this last beta weekend, no one had the straight damage trait line available to them. I can see a lot of potential for the Rev when you mix the damage line (cant remember if they’ve named it already) and the Invoc line.