Guild Wars 2

Shiro (or the power legend) and the “Power” trait line cannot be the saving grace for the current Revenant’s dps problems.

The current problem that I see, is that weapons were created to fit with a particular legend, staff have quite a few supportive options with not that much dps since it fits with the support legend.

The legends are fine the way they are. It’s like being able to play Tanky one second with Jalis, and if my team starts getting wrecked or I’m low on energy, I can switch to Ventari and support a bit in MID COMBAT.

All weapons need to be able to do competitive dps no matter what legend you are using. If i want to use staff, but use it with the upcoming “power” legend, I should still be able to do competitive dps with it, while having the perks of the heals dropping from AA and the AoE condi cleanse.

The main point of this thread is that core classes aren’t penalized for taking certain weapons for a certain playstyle. Guardian can do great dps with GS no matter the utility build. Ranger can pew pew with LB whether they are running pet skills, traps, or shouts. Warrior can do awesome dps with GS whether they are running shouts or banners. So why can’t the Revenant do awesome dps with staff or hammer, while running ANY legend?

Making sure each weapon is doing legitmate dps for the Revenant will also open up more builds. I could be a staff wielding Jalis Rev, or a Hammer wielding Ventari Rev. This would also eliminate me feeling clunky if I’m running Staff Ventari, and I decide to switch to Jalis for a bit. I currently feel like something is off when I switch to my “second” legend because of low energy or because I need to trigger some condi removal.

If Revenant stays the way it is, everyone is going to using Shiro + Double Swords or whatever the Legend + Weapons combo is, because dps is too important, and they will likely camp in that legend too, unless the team absolutely needs heals, or unless the Rev needs some survivability by switching to Jalis.

At the end of the day, you can say damage numbers are untuned still, but the devs are saying the “dps focused legend and weapon” are still to come. My reply to you would be “EVERY single weapon needs to be dps focused” just like the core classes have.

So why can’t the Revenant do awesome dps with staff or hammer, while running ANY legend?

hammer is more for CC than scaling dmg, staff is fast but its healing oriented, at the moment, mace+axe deals better damage because it is condition damage oriented, maxe+ace + demon stance + its traits (that one of 3% damage increase per condition you have is op on dps) and you will deal a lot of dmg as a rampager.

now every single weapon needs to be dps focused??? wow i want to see you killing with just a warhorn.

Sry Threatopener, but you seem to forget other weapons on other classes. The staff is not DPS on Revenant? The Short-Bow is not DPS on Ranger. The Staff on Guard has low DPS. What do you want?

My question is are we going to be getting another ranged option for rev. If not Revenant is going to have some serious problems in certain PvE content that require ranged DPS weapons.

Hm, the revenant has hammer for 1200 range. Another range weapon with 900 range would be nice, but another 1200 range weapon? I do not think we will get another. Guard as an example has only one 1200 range option, too.

DarckKnight.7519:

So why can’t the Revenant do awesome dps with staff or hammer, while running ANY legend?

hammer is more for CC than scaling dmg, staff is fast but its healing oriented, at the moment, mace+axe deals better damage because it is condition damage oriented, maxe+ace + demon stance + its traits (that one of 3% damage increase per condition you have is op on dps) and you will deal a lot of dmg as a rampager.

now every single weapon needs to be dps focused??? wow i want to see you killing with just a warhorn.

Not every legend needs to do great DPS, this much is obvious – because legends represent combat roles, and you can swap them in mid-combat. However whether revenant needs to be able to do decent DPS with every weapon will depend largely on if they get a weapon swap to go along with legend swap. Ideally, I think so that weapon swap is tied with legend swap.

In general, the classes in GW2 are set up so that every class needs to be able to carry their part of DPS. Otherwise they’ll just be dragging the team down. If you can’t swap away from support staff into DPS weapon, then the support staff really isn’t a viable option. Once the revenant becomes part of the regular game, you can bet your kitten a pure staff revenant is going to be kicked out of dungeon parties.

Low DPS weapon may be good as a second option, but not as the only one.

DieFinn.3594:

Hm, the revenant has hammer for 1200 range. Another range weapon with 900 range would be nice, but another 1200 range weapon? I do not think we will get another. Guard as an example has only one 1200 range option, too.

So far all classes have at least two ranged options, and aside from thief at least one of them has 1200 or more range. I think warrior is the only exception, with both longbow and rifle having 1200 range.. but then it’s also the only class to have only 2-h ranged weapons.

I’m expecting revenant to get at least one single-handed ranged weapon with 900-range. However if they want to keep it with one weapon set per legend, with elite spec getting only one weapon even if it’s offhand.. then it might get a bit ugly.

Shiro would almost certainly be melee DPS focused then (sword-sword would make a lot of sense since that’s what Shiro was visually in GW1, even if they were treated technically as daggers). Elite is currently presumed to be Glint with offhand shield. That might really leave hammer as the only ranged option, which wouldn’t be very good.. especially if legends are tied closely to weapons, which would basically make jalis/hammer the only ranged option.

I’m not saying ALL legends need to do as much dps as the Power legend, but it needs to be relevant dps. According to theorycrafters, the current dps for the legends we have in the beta is 1/3 the dps of the current lowest core class.

If the weapons aren’t doing relevant dps or if the revenant doesn’t have a way to switch to a dps heavy weapon like Kitsune said, then Revenant’s aren’t going to have an easy time finding pve content. We already see it in the beta, people are posting ads not wanting revenants to come in because of the low dps.

Kitsune.1902:

DarckKnight.7519:

So why can’t the Revenant do awesome dps with staff or hammer, while running ANY legend?

hammer is more for CC than scaling dmg, staff is fast but its healing oriented, at the moment, mace+axe deals better damage because it is condition damage oriented, maxe+ace + demon stance + its traits (that one of 3% damage increase per condition you have is op on dps) and you will deal a lot of dmg as a rampager.

now every single weapon needs to be dps focused??? wow i want to see you killing with just a warhorn.

Not every legend needs to do great DPS, this much is obvious – because legends represent combat roles, and you can swap them in mid-combat. However whether revenant needs to be able to do decent DPS with every weapon will depend largely on if they get a weapon swap to go along with legend swap. Ideally, I think so that weapon swap is tied with legend swap.

In general, the classes in GW2 are set up so that every class needs to be able to carry their part of DPS. Otherwise they’ll just be dragging the team down. If you can’t swap away from support staff into DPS weapon, then the support staff really isn’t a viable option. Once the revenant becomes part of the regular game, you can bet your kitten a pure staff revenant is going to be kicked out of dungeon parties.

Low DPS weapon may be good as a second option, but not as the only one.

that’s why i said that for a good dps, on the current rampager it would be the mace + axe with legend demon, you deal both normal and condition damage, on high amounts, and its traits are focused on improve your combat performance with conditions.

and i am starting to think that weapon swap should not come to the revenant so it can have a difficulty on the micromanagement.

Jordo.5913:

I’m not saying ALL legends need to do as much dps as the Power legend, but it needs to be relevant dps. According to theorycrafters, the current dps for the legends we have in the beta is 1/3 the dps of the current lowest core class.

All legend themed weapons*

Jordo.5913:

The current problem that I see, is that weapons were created to fit with a particular legend, staff have quite a few supportive options with not that much dps since it fits with the support legend.

All weapons need to be able to do competitive dps no matter what legend you are using. If i want to use staff, but use it with the upcoming “power” legend, I should still be able to do competitive dps with it, while having the perks of the heals dropping from AA and the AoE condi cleanse.

The main point of this thread is that core classes aren’t penalized for taking certain weapons for a certain playstyle. Guardian can do great dps with GS no matter the utility build. Ranger can pew pew with LB whether they are running pet skills, traps, or shouts. Warrior can do awesome dps with GS whether they are running shouts or banners. So why can’t the Revenant do awesome dps with staff or hammer, while running ANY legend?

This doesn’t seems right by single bit. Ranger LB for instance you have to invest on Marksman with arrow pierce and cd. Otherwise the LB dps will hit rock bottom. Ranger’s GS is locked to Beastmaster. These are just some example on 1 class (take a good look @ warrior too, same stuffs). One of the fundamental problem with GW2 design that certain weapon is locked to certain trait in order for them to be effective.

With rev, they basically add another layer, in form of Legendaries Stances. For example, Staff is tied to Legendary Centaur which are tied to Salvation to be effective. That’s 3 layers for single weapon.
So, no, like other core classes, you won’t get competitive dps across all legends with a certain weapon.
It’s GW2 game design in general, so deal with it.

I was wishing the whole time that. Switching your legendary meant switching your weapon too. It’s really hard to not have the option of switching to range or melee.

drkmgic.9583:

I was wishing the whole time that. Switching your legendary meant switching your weapon too. It’s really hard to not have the option of switching to range or melee.

This is very true. Especially on a heavy melee oriented dominant class. Guardian and Warrior can swap to range from melee. A Rev can only choose 1, which is very very bad, considering there are encounters that need lots of swapping, fractals come to my mind straight away. Indeed on pvp too, a melee heavy class need option to switch melee to range in combat.
Bad design tbh.

Yes, it is normal to have 1-2 weapons that have low damage. However revenant doesn’t have many weapons left and so far all four of them have godly awful base damage on every skill.

Even damage modifiers will not fix that without breaking out-of-profession skills like picking up an Ice Bow.

I also agree revenant deserves weapon swap – you only get access to an extra 5 skills with the second legend, most of which are restricted to niche roles and aren’t “weapon skill” types. Compare that to how many extra skills elementalist (3x 5) or engineer (potentially 4x 5 + 5 on toolbelt) gain, it’s nowhere near that.

This is a problem that has always annoyed me personally, alot of utilites are in the weapons itself which makes many weapons not feel like weapons at all, for me at least.
take great sword for warriors for example, the 4th ability causes you to throw your sword to cause cripple , and your 5th ability is a distance closer. That seems like a waste of a spot on my weapons bar, warriors already have a distance closer in the utility slot, the 4th slot while its cripple is nice it just doesnt feel like it belongs there. And honestly even if its a fantasy game why the flying fudge can you throw your very heavy 2h sword and have it come back …..HOW THE FUDGE does it come back? /rant

Anyways how they have weapons skill atm is i think pretty boring,since in most cases it feels like you just use 2 or so skills over and over again, and to me it seems like it makes some weapons not very useable at all, unless for very niche things which sucks.

I would love it if they would make weapons skills as modular as utility skills but on a smaller scale. I love to be able to make my staff more offensive on my guardian, or deal damage with my rifle on my engi. Or add another utility slot and change some of the weapons skills.

But sadly i doubt they will fix this problem with weapons, since maybe they dont consider it a problem. And sadly i wont be able to use the staff as a butt kicking machine. Also weapons shouldnt be tied to a legend

I don’t think Revenant needs weapon swap like other core professions. They need weapon swap tied to legends like Anet is trying to do during development in the first place.

If I choose Ventari and Jalis, then I wield Staff or Hammer depending what stance I’m in.

Weapon swap on Legend swap would be what I’m referring to.

I beg to differ when you said guardian can always do good damage with gs, run nomad gear and see

Basically the Revenant suffers the same thing that Elementalists suffer through with thematic design. What is “thematic design”? Thematic design is when things are designed in line with a theme rather than functionality. For example most classes have a very clear Condition line, a very clear Power line, etc. Elementalists on the other hand have all things burning related in Fire, all things bleeding related in Earth, all things Speed related in Air, etc and all the designs match a “theme.”

Ultimately this always leads to a weaker character over all because it’s not balanced on a functional level (IE: A line benefits any heals with any heal) but instead only a theme level that only benefits what you have equipped (IE: Ventari trait line only benefits if you have Ventari).

Was kinda hoping to escape this bad design philosophy from the Elementalist but apparently Roy is using the same design for the Revenant as well

thejoedude.3465:

I beg to differ when you said guardian can always do good damage with gs, run nomad gear and see

run nomad on revenant and then you’ll realize you wish you could still do the same amount of damage as your nomad guardian

Damage numbers will likely be looked at a few times more before they release the expansion, I wouldn’t worry about it that much.

The 2 things that bother me is

1: That the rev has little flexibility when it comes to switching from melee combat to ranged.

2: The rev is extremely reliant on the weapon they choose & unlike an elementalist legend swap doesnt seem to give as much flexibility as atunement swap.

I totally agree. EVERY weapon needs to work well with EVERY Legend, There can be a weapon designed to be best with a specific Legend, but if you have all the Legends on one side, and the weapon on the other, it should be like 10/10 (best combo), 8/10, 8/10, 7/10, 5/10 (worst combo), not 10/10(good combo), 0/10, 2/10, 3/10, 2/10 (all horrible combos).

Rev staff isnt lower DPS because its tied to the “support” legend . . its lower dps cus it can heal while u fight

it’s called balanced

Even if they buff the dps for rev, staff would still be lower for the fact it can heal you while you fight

Rev staff isnt lower DPS because its tied to the “support” legend . . its lower dps cus it can heal while u fight

it’s called balanced

Even if they buff the dps for rev, staff would still be lower for the fact it can heal you while you fight

Rev staff should always be slightly less DPS than the other options, but currently it’s too low regardless. If they want to keep the damage this low, then it needs to do a LOT more healing.

Ohoni.6057:

Rev staff isnt lower DPS because its tied to the “support” legend . . its lower dps cus it can heal while u fight

it’s called balanced

Even if they buff the dps for rev, staff would still be lower for the fact it can heal you while you fight

Rev staff should always be slightly less DPS than the other options, but currently it’s too low regardless. If they want to keep the damage this low, then it needs to do a LOT more healing.

the Healing dont make up for the low damage. the self healing doesnt provide enough defense against burst damage. I been burst down like nothing. I am trying defense gear and stats, and healing stats, but nothing is providing me enough defense to use my heals. Tablet heals far too weak to counter burst damage in SPvP. that pretty much forces me to no used Centaur in SPvP. We have around the same HP as Guardian…

WHY IS THAT ANET? the defense we have, yet have around the same HP as Guardians? WTF? We need Hp around Warrior level baseline, and added toughness or passive damage reduction…

I am so frustrated!!!

the Healing dont make up for the low damage.

Right now, at least, I agree, although I could see a version of it that is still pathetic on damage, but heals SO well that this is ok. For it to have really weak damage, it would need to have healing so good as to make you practically immortal against most enemies, and able to face tank champs for several minutes. If it’s not capable of that level of healing output, then it needs to kill things faster.

Now, I don’t think Staff should ever be balanced with sPvP in mind, it’s just too supporty by nature, and just doesn’t make a lot of sense in PvP 1v1s, but it needs to have solid value in PvE soloing. The only role I could see it having in sPvP is in 2vX capture/defend scenarios, where your healing is keeping both you and a second player alive against opponents, or in Stronghold where maybe there’s some beneficial role to play there, but I don’t think it really even needs to be an ideal build in sPvP.

Zev.3407:

Rev staff isnt lower DPS because its tied to the “support” legend . . its lower dps cus it can heal while u fight

it’s called balanced

Even if they buff the dps for rev, staff would still be lower for the fact it can heal you while you fight

let the gear balance the weapon

if i go berserker then make it buff the damage to be competitive damage, but not as much damage as Shiro and the “true dps weapon” that rev will be getting, and then make it do crap healing

if i go clerics or nomad’s, then make it buff the healing to where the healing makes a difference and then i do alright dps, but definitely not as low as what is currently in beta

Jordo.5913:

Zev.3407:

Rev staff isnt lower DPS because its tied to the “support” legend . . its lower dps cus it can heal while u fight

it’s called balanced

Even if they buff the dps for rev, staff would still be lower for the fact it can heal you while you fight

let the gear balance the weapon

if i go berserker then make it buff the damage to be competitive damage, but not as much damage as Shiro and the “true dps weapon” that rev will be getting, and then make it do crap healing

if i go clerics or nomad’s, then make it buff the healing to where the healing makes a difference and then i do alright dps, but definitely not as low as what is currently in beta

Iam using Healing-power with Staff, and its not healing much. The only support elements to Staff is AA-chain3, and skill 4. Where is all this support from Staff? tablet dont count. thats a Legend not Staff skill.

AAC3 isnt healing much to stay alive when focused.

Heal 4 doesnt heal much to stay alive and counter burst.

We have the same HP as Guardian. With far less self defense.

I am not seeing the logic for balancing here.

I tried Toughness. I tried Healing Power… whats the end all be all solution to survival as Revenant in SPvP without Shiro or Glint?

Knighthonor.4061:

…
We have the same HP as Guardian. With far less self defense.
….

thats not true
with revenant we have:
Ele Thief and Guard as low HP Classes
Revenant, Mesmer and Engineer as medium HP Classes
Warrior Necro and Ranger as High HP Classes
but doenst matter right now cause Revenant needs a lot of work right now.

He needs Better synergy between legends/weapons and Traits
And i still hope for more choices on ultilities for every legend (i hate selfcripple stuff on malyx, imagine if u have to run all the corruption ultilities on necro)

I am sorry if anyone has already “disproven” the signet heavy legend that is incoming (according to speculation), but it seems to me that the expected Shiro legend with all signets is not going to happen.

based on the feedback alone I think the likely conclusion is that the profession getting the big dump of signets is the Revenant. I think that signets will be able to be swapped for other utility skills. This means you could have dwarf legend and swap out some utility, or demon and customize it. This could help with some of the issues the Revenant has at the moment too.

I expect they will have some stun cleanse ability in these, as well as some gap closer, or activated ranged damage. There is just no way he engineer is getting the signets they will introduce and thus the Revenant will. These should not be or will not be specific to one legend, and I think that the current beta build doesn’t allow customization simply because they want feedback on the powers they have already, and none of the non legend specific powers are in the build.

Also currently if they left them not being able to switch the utility skills on legends, then Revenant becomes incapable of using any race powers either.

Shiro isn’t the signet heavy legend, Glint is supposedly.

That_Shaman already datamined one of Shiro’s utilties or elite, and before anyone mentions it doesnt have an energy cost or a cast time, this was datamined the same time as the weapon skills that we have today, and back then the weapon skills didn’t have energy costs either.

Jordo.5913:

Shiro isn’t the signet heavy legend, Glint is supposedly.

That.

And it’s possible the weapon for Glint is shield, due to datamined shield of dragon wing….given that all the other weapons datamined at the timed appear to make with other known elite specs.

Ah, okay. Either way. I think the error, if there is one, with the signet thing would be if they are tied to any legend. They would be the easiest skills to make be swappable for other utility tied to a legend.

Man we gotta get changes and more announced or the Revenant is junk. I almost worry they will be terrible at the beginning just so the Revenant wave is not like other MMOs that had mega powerful launch expansion characters just to make them cool, and then had to slap them down with nerfs.

Roxx.8713:

Knighthonor.4061:

…
We have the same HP as Guardian. With far less self defense.
….

thats not true
with revenant we have:
Ele Thief and Guard as low HP Classes
Revenant, Mesmer and Engineer as medium HP Classes
Warrior Necro and Ranger as High HP Classes
but doenst matter right now cause Revenant needs a lot of work right now.

That is incorrect. Rangers are a medium health class, not a high hp class. I think that’s why people are surprised revenants are not high health. There are so many medium hp classes now.

xarallei.4279:

That is incorrect. Rangers are a medium health class, not a high hp class. I think that’s why people are surprised revenants are not high health. There are so many medium hp classes now.

Actually it’s all balanced at 3/3/3.

Ele/Thief/Guardian – Low HP
Mesmer/Ranger/Revenant – Medium HP
Engie/Warrior/Necro – High HP

Engies are not high health.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

Hunh…never noticed that even on my own Engie cause despite being virtually all Zerker he’s still over 17k HP. I stand corrected.

Guess I shouldn’t be so surprised though given all the kitten backwards design decisions between classes.

I figure that this alpha look at Rev will allow Anet to tweak weapon damage somewhat.

Is clear if u cannot kill 3 rats in the other stances everyone will go sword/sword and shiro stance and that’s is your revant single stance profession…(and the rest will be useless) and then will be no more unique play stile.

thejoedude.3465:

I beg to differ when you said guardian can always do good damage with gs, run nomad gear and see

Well revenant cant do good damage full zerk with any weapon atm their best damage is probably rampager mace axe and it’s mediocre at best. With full zerk a full support bunker guard (no radiance or zeal) can do more damage than a rampager revenant.

Wow, you people who are claiming the revenant is fine fine as is… have you even played one? Currently, they are by far the weakest DPS class in GW2 and no amount of utility is going to fix that. A level 80 sporting all exotic gear with the best runes/sigils SHOULD NOT struggle to beat a basic mob one-on-one. If you want that kind of challenge, play your level 80 character with level 5 gear, but don’t say a broken beta class is fine, dandy, and fun.

Zev.3407:

Rev staff isnt lower DPS because its tied to the “support” legend . . its lower dps cus it can heal while u fight

Except we have evidence to the contrary directly from Roy himself regarding how the staff was once meant to be DPS but then designed to be more in tune with Ventari.

The revenant feels weak at the moment. And I really had problems using all the skills with this rather complicated energy system. Then you want to use this skill, a second later it doesn’t work cuz you lack the mana you need etc. They really have to tweak something. Especially weapons skills: energy and cooldown?

Genesis.8572:

Zev.3407:

Rev staff isnt lower DPS because its tied to the “support” legend . . its lower dps cus it can heal while u fight

Except we have evidence to the contrary directly from Roy himself regarding how the staff was once meant to be DPS but then designed to be more in tune with Ventari.

Thats the worst possible design to use for the Revenant – Revenants gain their Roles through their utilities not their weapons
If i want to heal during fight i use Ventari legend if i want to handle conditions i use mallyx – thats the idea behind the revenant.

Revenants can’t swap weapons in combat so its useless to design the weapons for a role

ProtoGunner.4953:

The revenant feels weak at the moment. And I really had problems using all the skills with this rather complicated energy system. Then you want to use this skill, a second later it doesn’t work cuz you lack the mana you need etc. They really have to tweak something. Especially weapons skills: energy and cooldown?

This is exactly how I felt. The revenant requires too much micromanagement. Instead of having an kitten nal of tools to react to each unique situations, I felt like I was playing Clicker Heroes just for basic survival.

I guess I am just surprised at the current state of the revenant which feels more like an alpha than beta. In many betas I have played, classes are usually overpowered and need to be toned down, but the revenant needs a major DPS increase just to be on par with all other GW2 classes. Hopefully, the developers intend to use player feedback and data mine from this beta to shape and form the revenant which is currently in a very raw and ineffective state.