Guild Wars 2

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I fully agree with your point, you change your utilities around a lot depending on the situation. And you’ll be changing all your utilities, or none at all if you need that stability from jalis, for example. The best possible solution, although it would be tons of work for arenanet and they are probably busy working on other specialisations and HoT, would be to add one additional skill tied to each legend, to get 4 options. Which would bring us to 16 (20 if specialised) utility skill options instead of 12 (other classes have 20 options(24 if specialised)).

One note though: It seems unlikely they were planning to add skills to the legends, as indicated by the Glint reveal. They had 6 facets to choose from, and because they were only planning on making 5 skills, they decided to use the 6th facet to make a unique profession mechanic. This would make it really tricky for them to add another Glint skill, as they’re out of facets now.

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I agree that other classes do function this way and most people look at it as them having versatility ,but I think that’s not really the case. Every class in this game has an over abundance of crappy Utilities. The Revenant on the other hand has fewer Utility options ,but they are much more well rounded. People think that Revs need the same options as other classes ,but I don’t see that as the case. Rev’s have better Utilities by far then the other classes and if the other classes had better Utilities they wouldn’t need to swap them out an an encounter to encounter basis. Most classes get 1 maybe 2 Elites in which they swap in an out. The Guardian only had 1 up until the removed Tomes. The Rev on the other hand has 5 good Elites every single one is good.The same can be said for Heal skills. 1-2 decent ones for every other class. The Rev has 5 good ones. So I do believe that if the Rev had that level of customization it would put them above the other classes and I also believe its not needed because the kit we have already is better then what other classes are getting.

sebradle.7034:

NeroBoron.7285:

sebradle.7034:

But revenant’s utilities are all generally stronger then other profession utilities and on top of that they have no cool downs. So if use your energy right you should always have what you need available. Just the fact that you can spam revenant utilities means to me there should be some trade offs.

Stronger? The skills itself are as strong as other utilities. That there is no cooldown on some skills or such a low cooldown that you can basically spam it. Is another problem. I already posted somewhere that they really have to add a CD to Pain Absobation because you can get nearly perma resistance. That is a problem for some other skills as well and should be fixed. (Even if not a thief can also spam his skills, but I agree that should not be the case)

I said generally stronger. I think this is true because Revenant has more viable utilities then any other profession. Because it is a newer class (more gameplay to draw from when designing them) and the utilities have been packaged together to work with one another.

Also I was responding to someone who is comparing revenant utilites to having illusion of life forced onto your bar. I think it is beyond ridiculous to compare Revenant utilities to something so highly situational. So please give me a the revenant utilities that are so situational that you don’t see yourself using them because they all seem to be of use to me.

Also you cant ignore the no cooldown thing because that is a huge trade off for customization. If you were allowed to choose exactly what you need and have it on no cooldown seems to me like it would make gameplay pretty easy.

I feel that yes the Revenant is lacking in customization and that makes it feel more boring. But I do not look at any of the Legends or their utilities and think oh wow that is just kitten I am never going to use that.

Yeah okay in general I would agree that the revenant has more useful skills than other classes. And I also want to see a fair CD on every skill. For me the option of customization is a. Big deal, and this us also something I’ve heard from friends and guildies.

And yes the illusion of life example isn’t the best, but I think it gets the point of having a useless skill which you would like to change. For example in a pve dungeon run you uAndunyielding anguish.. Afterwards your team mates gonna kill you for porting away the stacked mobs. So you basically have a skill there that you won’t use. Ever. (At least in that scenario)

Also as I stated before the statement that other classes have 400000 build varieties sounds great but everyone knows you only have way less viable and useful builds. There where times where I had 8 armors for different engineer builds. And you still could tweak every build of these by changing one or two skills.
On the revenant changing a legend meens a totally other play style where you probably also need another armor for., while I just want to change a little piece of it.

Before you ask: the 8 engineer builds:
- Melee Rabid Condition Perplexity Engineer
- Undead Dire Condition Engineer
- Bomb Heal Engineer
- Celestial Rifle Engineer
- Hoelbrak Knight Power Rifle
- Berserker Static Discharge
- Melandru Zerg Engineer
- Rune of the Defender Turret Reflect Engineer

8 different Sets, 8 different build. And all of they fitted their role good. So basically it is like the revenants 10 legend combinations. And still you could adjust them a little bit. For example swap a skill for a revealing skill when you see a thief engaging you or swap in elexier s for toolkit to get through somewhere before a zerg fight. Or swap in grenades for bombs to have better range options.

The point should be clear.

And yes there are some things that are too strong on revenant and they should get balanced.

But please everyone arguing by saying “giving the revenant access to x, will make him op, because he already got y”, just doesn’t fit in a discussion. Specially not when we all know that y has to be and will be nerfed.
Don’t get me wrong post your thoughts on it, but please bring some good arguments and examples. and also keep in mind it is a beta, there is a lot of stuff that can change.

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

Yep that’s what I currently see and felt.

Griffith.7238:

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I agree that other classes do function this way and most people look at it as them having versatility ,but I think that’s not really the case. Every class in this game has an over abundance of crappy Utilities. The Revenant on the other hand has fewer Utility options ,but they are much more well rounded. People think that Revs need the same options as other classes ,but I don’t see that as the case. Rev’s have better Utilities by far then the other classes and if the other classes had better Utilities they wouldn’t need to swap them out an an encounter to encounter basis. Most classes get 1 maybe 2 Elites in which they swap in an out. The Guardian only had 1 up until the removed Tomes. The Rev on the other hand has 5 good Elites every single one is good.The same can be said for Heal skills. 1-2 decent ones for every other class. The Rev has 5 good ones. So I do believe that if the Rev had that level of customization it would put them above the other classes and I also believe its not needed because the kit we have already is better then what other classes are getting.

I agree that every other class only has any smaller pool of really good skills and I am not happy about that as well. For example on the ele you usually pick the signet or aether heal because they are the most effective ones. Still in pve sometimes pick the arcane skill for an extra blast.
But on revenant I would only pick up thebherald heal in wvw zerg fights. Because in other situation it wouldn’t be that effective. So if lick up the herald in another situation to get for example. The might and protection stacks in fractals. You give uo a kit if your selfheal. And so you run around with a heal skill you are not happy with. And probably you have other skills you are not happy with. So a revenant is forced to pick up spells he doesn’t like in exchange to get access to skills he like. Yes they have more utilities skills equipped than others. But still I prefer to have an option there when it comes to such important skill options like your heal skill. And so on another class you activelly could chose those important skills that fit you the best. While in revenant you get forced to use skills you don’t want to just to get access to those you really want, and that can break a build easily.

Even one more heal skill and one more utility could nearly fix this.. For example when you pick up a legend for his currently utikitiz skills but the heal skill doesn’t fit you can change it. If you pick a elite where 2 utilities currently don’t fit you could at least swap out one.

And also if all skills are equally good. Swapping out a good skill for a good skill shouldn’t change the balance or?

NeroBoron.7285:

Griffith.7238:

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I agree that other classes do function this way and most people look at it as them having versatility ,but I think that’s not really the case. Every class in this game has an over abundance of crappy Utilities. The Revenant on the other hand has fewer Utility options ,but they are much more well rounded. People think that Revs need the same options as other classes ,but I don’t see that as the case. Rev’s have better Utilities by far then the other classes and if the other classes had better Utilities they wouldn’t need to swap them out an an encounter to encounter basis. Most classes get 1 maybe 2 Elites in which they swap in an out. The Guardian only had 1 up until the removed Tomes. The Rev on the other hand has 5 good Elites every single one is good.The same can be said for Heal skills. 1-2 decent ones for every other class. The Rev has 5 good ones. So I do believe that if the Rev had that level of customization it would put them above the other classes and I also believe its not needed because the kit we have already is better then what other classes are getting.

I agree that every other class only has any smaller pool of really good skills and I am not happy about that as well. For example on the ele you usually pick the signet or aether heal because they are the most effective ones. Still in pve sometimes pick the arcane skill for an extra blast.
But on revenant I would only pick up thebherald heal in wvw zerg fights. Because in other situation it wouldn’t be that effective. So if lick up the herald in another situation to get for example. The might and protection stacks in fractals. You give uo a kit if your selfheal. And so you run around with a heal skill you are not happy with. And probably you have other skills you are not happy with. So a revenant is forced to pick up spells he doesn’t like in exchange to get access to skills he like. Yes they have more utilities skills equipped than others. But still I prefer to have an option there when it comes to such important skill options like your heal skill. And so on another class you activelly could chose those important skills that fit you the best. While in revenant you get forced to use skills you don’t want to just to get access to those you really want, and that can break a build easily.

Even one more heal skill and one more utility could nearly fix this.. For example when you pick up a legend for his currently utikitiz skills but the heal skill doesn’t fit you can change it. If you pick a elite where 2 utilities currently don’t fit you could at least swap out one.

And also if all skills are equally good. Swapping out a good skill for a good skill shouldn’t change the balance or?

This is the reason we get access to two Legends at the same time. Lets say you are doing content where you aren’t going to get hit much. This would obviously make Glints heal not so good ,but at the same time you want Glints other utilities for that content. The Regen from Glints heal will help you stay up a little longer then usual ,but when the time comes that you do need to heal you switch to your other Legend which will have a heal more appropriate for the situation. They realized that each Legend would lack the same customization that other classes get that’s why they allowed us to use two at once.

Wandelaar.3746:

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I fully agree with your point, you change your utilities around a lot depending on the situation. And you’ll be changing all your utilities, or none at all if you need that stability from jalis, for example. The best possible solution, although it would be tons of work for arenanet and they are probably busy working on other specialisations and HoT, would be to add one additional skill tied to each legend, to get 4 options. Which would bring us to 16 (20 if specialised) utility skill options instead of 12 (other classes have 20 options(24 if specialised)).

One note though: It seems unlikely they were planning to add skills to the legends, as indicated by the Glint reveal. They had 6 facets to choose from, and because they were only planning on making 5 skills, they decided to use the 6th facet to make a unique profession mechanic. This would make it really tricky for them to add another Glint skill, as they’re out of facets now.

I would say making up one more Facet name isn’t that hard and I am sure some of the lore hounds would come up with fitting one in just a minute or two even considering adding a bit to the lore. Maybe something with Crystals, considering whole Dragon’s Lair, Desert etc.

Certainly worth it. Considering both Mallyx and Shiro have some names for one more utility for each of them left in their old skill sets. And other two – Jalis and Ventari – don’t have many canon names for skills, so you can do whatever you want with them.

We seem to agree on the “just one more utility per legend”. Now it’s just Roy left….

You guys can say that the Rev lacks the same amount of customization as other classes ,but its equally traded for more versatility in combat. I don’t see any other classes getting 2 heal skills , 6 utilities , and 2 elites accessible in combat.

It seems no one understands the concept of a trade-off anymore. You guys will whine so much they will give you extra utilities even though they aren’t needed then will start asking for access to 3 Legends at once. It’s clear you guys just want Revs to be the be all end all of all the classes.

Griffith.7238:

You guys can say that the Rev lacks the same amount of customization as other classes ,but its equally traded for more versatility in combat. I don’t see any other classes getting 2 heal skills , 6 utilities , and 2 elites accessible in combat.

It seems no one understands the concept of a trade-off anymore. You guys will whine so much they will give you extra utilities even though they aren’t needed then will start asking for access to 3 Legends at once. It’s clear you guys just want Revs to be the be all end all of all the classes.

This has been mentioned quite a few times, It is true we’re getting acces to twice as many utilities at the same time, but we’re also having a pool of utilities that is only about half as large as the other classes get (12 compared to 20 on other classes)
Not talking about specialisations yet..
You are also completely missing the point, we are not asking for buffs and extra strength, we are asking for some customizability. We want to be able to make real trade-offs.
By the way, not sure if you’ve noticed, but revenants haven’t exactly been the be all and end all of all the classes up until now, they’ve even been undertuned, so don’t jump to conclusion before you’ve seen it in game.

Rym.1469:

Wandelaar.3746:

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I fully agree with your point, you change your utilities around a lot depending on the situation. And you’ll be changing all your utilities, or none at all if you need that stability from jalis, for example. The best possible solution, although it would be tons of work for arenanet and they are probably busy working on other specialisations and HoT, would be to add one additional skill tied to each legend, to get 4 options. Which would bring us to 16 (20 if specialised) utility skill options instead of 12 (other classes have 20 options(24 if specialised)).

One note though: It seems unlikely they were planning to add skills to the legends, as indicated by the Glint reveal. They had 6 facets to choose from, and because they were only planning on making 5 skills, they decided to use the 6th facet to make a unique profession mechanic. This would make it really tricky for them to add another Glint skill, as they’re out of facets now.

I would say making up one more Facet name isn’t that hard and I am sure some of the lore hounds would come up with fitting one in just a minute or two even considering adding a bit to the lore. Maybe something with Crystals, considering whole Dragon’s Lair, Desert etc.

Certainly worth it. Considering both Mallyx and Shiro have some names for one more utility for each of them left in their old skill sets. And other two – Jalis and Ventari – don’t have many canon names for skills, so you can do whatever you want with them.

We seem to agree on the “just one more utility per legend”. Now it’s just Roy left….

Haha yeah really hope that anet takes at least a deeper look in this.
but just take a look at Soothing Stone for example which heals only for 4,5k with a 30 second cooldown. The ratio just didn’t fit (at least not compared to other heal skills). So you really are in need of the 2nd heal skill.

Yes I know Soothing Stone removes 3 Condi’s as well. But take a look at healing turret5k heal for you ,2.5k heal for allies, regeneration water field 2 conditions removed. 15sec CD if not overcharged.
Or consume conditions which has as well 30 sec CD but heals for 5,2k removed all condition and heals for each removed condition 700hp so with 4 conditions you get 8k heal and all conditions removed.
(Just to show up that you are really in need of both heals)
Yes currently the heal of mallyx could be a bit strong with many conditions.

Why are people bringing balance and viability of the skills into question? That’s something that can and should be changed by Anet. Regardless it has nothing to do with the fact that those classes still have options and customization.

Griffith.7238:

You guys can say that the Rev lacks the same amount of customization as other classes ,but its equally traded for more versatility in combat. I don’t see any other classes getting 2 heal skills , 6 utilities , and 2 elites accessible in combat.

It seems no one understands the concept of a trade-off anymore. You guys will whine so much they will give you extra utilities even though they aren’t needed then will start asking for access to 3 Legends at once. It’s clear you guys just want Revs to be the be all end all of all the classes.

You’re kidding right? Revenants have two sets of utilities because that’s their class mechanic. Do Revenants have steal, pets, burst skills, virtues, death shoud, shatters, or tool kits? No, they have legend stances. That doesn’t mean they should be handicapped of options.

Rym.1469:

Wandelaar.3746:

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I fully agree with your point, you change your utilities around a lot depending on the situation. And you’ll be changing all your utilities, or none at all if you need that stability from jalis, for example. The best possible solution, although it would be tons of work for arenanet and they are probably busy working on other specialisations and HoT, would be to add one additional skill tied to each legend, to get 4 options. Which would bring us to 16 (20 if specialised) utility skill options instead of 12 (other classes have 20 options(24 if specialised)).

One note though: It seems unlikely they were planning to add skills to the legends, as indicated by the Glint reveal. They had 6 facets to choose from, and because they were only planning on making 5 skills, they decided to use the 6th facet to make a unique profession mechanic. This would make it really tricky for them to add another Glint skill, as they’re out of facets now.

I would say making up one more Facet name isn’t that hard and I am sure some of the lore hounds would come up with fitting one in just a minute or two even considering adding a bit to the lore. Maybe something with Crystals, considering whole Dragon’s Lair, Desert etc.

Certainly worth it. Considering both Mallyx and Shiro have some names for one more utility for each of them left in their old skill sets. And other two – Jalis and Ventari – don’t have many canon names for skills, so you can do whatever you want with them.

We seem to agree on the “just one more utility per legend”. Now it’s just Roy left….

There isn’t any other facets. If they did something like that they would have to rename Facet of Nature into something more generic. Then they could make a new utility and call it Facet of Nature.

Griffith.7238:

You guys can say that the Rev lacks the same amount of customization as other classes ,but its equally traded for more versatility in combat. I don’t see any other classes getting 2 heal skills , 6 utilities , and 2 elites accessible in combat.

It seems no one understands the concept of a trade-off anymore. You guys will whine so much they will give you extra utilities even though they aren’t needed then will start asking for access to 3 Legends at once. It’s clear you guys just want Revs to be the be all end all of all the classes.

It’s designed this way, in beginning anet ripped revenants from a second weapon set as trade of. But since they noticed the revenant doesn’t feel right with it and was to weak they added the 2nd weapon set.

Also if you check my last post you may see that revenants both heal skills together as strong as other classes heal. At least in heal:CD ratio. Yes it is far from final and done yet and i guess there will be some tweaks as well.

And I made a lot of tests with guildies in the last beta weekend, and everyone said that he is way to weak has way to less survival and so on. With other words far away from op. This may change a little with the last announced changes.

But still I don’t believe giving a small room for customization will drastically boost the revenant and make him completely op.
The ability that a mesmers can swap veil for a portal also doesn’t make him op, does it? I don’t think so.

Yep, as I said “This may change a little with the last announced changes.”

NeroBoron.7285:

Yep, as I said “This may change a little with the last announced changes.”

Lol sorry about that didnt read that part.

But I just wanna state if they gave us new utilities it wouldn’t be something like condition removal on Shiro.

Whatever new utilites we got would fall in

Shiro: Mobility, Damage
Jallis: Tankiness, Control
Ventari: Healing, Support
Mallyx: Condition related abilities
Glint: Buffs, Glint Themed Actives

Ok … answer this one question then. The other classes get 25 Utilities with their Elite Spec. If those classes got to pick 6 of their best Utilities instead of just 3 would they be overpowered?

You guys keep talking about customization when it isn’t a reality. Most other classes have 6 Utilities (if they are lucky) that are even good for any particular type of content. Usually when deciding what utilities you want there is at least 1 if not 2 of them that are just locked in right away cause you know you really need them. Then there is 1 more utility that you might be on the fence about and you are left with maybe 1-3 options for that 1 slot. So if any one class got to say pick 6 utilities instead of just 3 they would have a perfect build they would pick the best 6 the class has to offer and call it a day.

Let’s not even talk about the fact that you guys keep asking for more options yet fail to offer up a single one for any of the Legends. You know why you haven’t offered up any suggestions? Because we all know exactly what you want. You want condi clease on Shiro. You want mobility on Jalis. You want cc breaks on Mallyx. You want to make a class that has literally zero weaknesses. The devs can only come up with so many ideas and you guys aren’t suggesting any. They also know balance and recognize that this would wreck it. You want more options on Shiro? What are they going to add? Another movement skill? What would be the point? They only thing they could add would make it too well rounded and overpowered or be completely useless. They add more you pick the best 3 every time every one picks the same 3 because they are the best its an illusion of choice just like all the other classes you people seriously need to think before you open your mouth cause the nonsense that follows is baffling.

They need to focus on making the skills we have top notch instead of worrying about making more that will either be better then ones we have forcing the current ones to the side or worse and be completely ignored.

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

Well it makes me “lul” that so many people only play the meta builds. In pve especially there are many options to go with.

I’d be happy if there was just one extra utility per legend so we’d have at least a little choice.

Well I think it’s pretty much a given that you can get away with anything in most PvE settings Meta builds are designed for Speed Runs. Everyone plays for their own reason ,but I think most people play to play with other people thats kinda what MMOs are about and in that case you are doing not only yourself but you whole group a disservice by running some random build that doesn’t fit into the meta. PvP is exponentially more strict and if you want to excel Meta is really the only way to go. Most meta builds leave a few utilities optional ,but that doesn’t mean you should just put anything there is always gonna be a choice between like maybe 1-3 Utilities out of the 25 or so you have. Yes other classes have more options then Rev ,but saying some bs like “They have 40,000 combinations to choose from” is completely inaccurate. If you want to play your class at it’s highest level you have very few combinations to choose from.

The meta is the meta because some popular people decide that works better and in the case of pvp likely counters the previous meta. I don’t think random strangers being mad at you is a reason to run the strict meta. If you play for others approval you’re playing wrong. If you run with friends or have cool guildies they don’t care much what you run.

It’s not about playing for someones approval its about being effective. If you aren’t playing to win then yeah I suppose it doesn’t matter what you run (which is fine not everyone is competitive) ,but there’s a reason you don’t go AP Darius because its not effective. I could care less what other people in the match think of my performance ,but I do care about what I think of my own performance and I want to know win or lose that I did all I could. I don’t want to say to myself after that match “Oh we totally would’ve won that if I wasn’t using this completely kittened build”.

I’m not talking about level 50 fractals or tournament pvp. I’m talking about 99% of the game. What you run as long as it isn’t a complete mismatch doesn’t matter all that much but having the ability to customize to fit your style makes it more fun.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

Well it makes me “lul” that so many people only play the meta builds. In pve especially there are many options to go with.

I’d be happy if there was just one extra utility per legend so we’d have at least a little choice.

Well I think it’s pretty much a given that you can get away with anything in most PvE settings Meta builds are designed for Speed Runs. Everyone plays for their own reason ,but I think most people play to play with other people thats kinda what MMOs are about and in that case you are doing not only yourself but you whole group a disservice by running some random build that doesn’t fit into the meta. PvP is exponentially more strict and if you want to excel Meta is really the only way to go. Most meta builds leave a few utilities optional ,but that doesn’t mean you should just put anything there is always gonna be a choice between like maybe 1-3 Utilities out of the 25 or so you have. Yes other classes have more options then Rev ,but saying some bs like “They have 40,000 combinations to choose from” is completely inaccurate. If you want to play your class at it’s highest level you have very few combinations to choose from.

The meta is the meta because some popular people decide that works better and in the case of pvp likely counters the previous meta. I don’t think random strangers being mad at you is a reason to run the strict meta. If you play for others approval you’re playing wrong. If you run with friends or have cool guildies they don’t care much what you run.

It’s not about playing for someones approval its about being effective. If you aren’t playing to win then yeah I suppose it doesn’t matter what you run (which is fine not everyone is competitive) ,but there’s a reason you don’t go AP Darius because its not effective. I could care less what other people in the match think of my performance ,but I do care about what I think of my own performance and I want to know win or lose that I did all I could. I don’t want to say to myself after that match “Oh we totally would’ve won that if I wasn’t using this completely kittened build”.

I’m not talking about level 50 fractals or tournament pvp. I’m talking about 99% of the game. What you run as long as it isn’t a complete mismatch doesn’t matter all that much but having the ability to customize to fit your style makes it more fun.

That’s the only scenario in which this argument makes any sense ,but considering “leveling” is such a small portion of the game I would rather them not make huge design changes based off of it. If all you do at 80 is run around solo and kill stuff then it’s a miracle you still play this game ,but don’t take that as an insult to each his own I personally see that as something that would be quite boring.

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

Deth.4109:

idk Revenant has enough skills as is. if Revenant is too perfect i.e highly polished in all regards. it would inevitably need to get a nerf. while it would be nice to get more skills for each legend like most professions we ultimately wouldn’t use some of them like most classes do now.

^This exactly. I keep seeing people post about build variety like all the other classes have it makes me lul so hard. Like what build variety do other classes have. On average other classes choose between 1 of 2 viable heals, 3 of maybe 5-6 viable utilities, and 1-2 viable elites. As a Rev we get 2 Heals, 6 utilities, and 2 elites at all times seems a fair trade to me and we are barely lacking the so called build variety that other classes have.

Well it makes me “lul” that so many people only play the meta builds. In pve especially there are many options to go with.

I’d be happy if there was just one extra utility per legend so we’d have at least a little choice.

Well I think it’s pretty much a given that you can get away with anything in most PvE settings Meta builds are designed for Speed Runs. Everyone plays for their own reason ,but I think most people play to play with other people thats kinda what MMOs are about and in that case you are doing not only yourself but you whole group a disservice by running some random build that doesn’t fit into the meta. PvP is exponentially more strict and if you want to excel Meta is really the only way to go. Most meta builds leave a few utilities optional ,but that doesn’t mean you should just put anything there is always gonna be a choice between like maybe 1-3 Utilities out of the 25 or so you have. Yes other classes have more options then Rev ,but saying some bs like “They have 40,000 combinations to choose from” is completely inaccurate. If you want to play your class at it’s highest level you have very few combinations to choose from.

The meta is the meta because some popular people decide that works better and in the case of pvp likely counters the previous meta. I don’t think random strangers being mad at you is a reason to run the strict meta. If you play for others approval you’re playing wrong. If you run with friends or have cool guildies they don’t care much what you run.

It’s not about playing for someones approval its about being effective. If you aren’t playing to win then yeah I suppose it doesn’t matter what you run (which is fine not everyone is competitive) ,but there’s a reason you don’t go AP Darius because its not effective. I could care less what other people in the match think of my performance ,but I do care about what I think of my own performance and I want to know win or lose that I did all I could. I don’t want to say to myself after that match “Oh we totally would’ve won that if I wasn’t using this completely kittened build”.

I’m not talking about level 50 fractals or tournament pvp. I’m talking about 99% of the game. What you run as long as it isn’t a complete mismatch doesn’t matter all that much but having the ability to customize to fit your style makes it more fun.

That’s the only scenario in which this argument makes any sense ,but considering “leveling” is such a small portion of the game I would rather them not make huge design changes based off of it. If all you do at 80 is run around solo and kill stuff then it’s a miracle you still play this game ,but don’t take that as an insult to each his own I personally see that as something that would be quite boring.

99% of the game is “only”? Are you kidding me? I’m not even talking about just leveling. If you think leveling fractals and high end pvp are the only thing to do then you’re missing out.
You seem to be the highly competitive type which is fine but realize that most do not play to be the #1 at (insert activity here)

sebradle.7034:

Would give you more than 20 different builds.

If you add a new utility skill to say shiro that would give you four utilities to choose from for three slots.

That is 4 choose 3 = 4 ways you can have a shiro bar

There is 5 legends so you have 5 choose 2 = 10 combinations of legends

So if you had shiro/ventari
4 ways to have shiro * 4 ways to have ventari = 16 different combinations of shiro/ventari load out

16 * 10 = 160 combinations of utility bars if you gave each legend a new utility.

I think my math is correct my combinatorics is a little rusty. Someone can check it if they want.

You’re absolutely right, I figured out I was totally off later, but didn’t take the time to come and correct myself So I’ll repeat myself, correctly this time, 160 is better than 10

Griffith.7238:

Yup 40480 combinations with only like maybe 3 viable ones .. gg

It all depends on the game mode and the playstyle. I play my mesmer differently than guildmate1, who also plays differently than guildmate2, etc. Some people just don’t like to stick to the meta

I play my mesmer in PvP differently than in WvW, and differently than in PvE. Yet in WvW, every mesmer players use them the same way. First time I got bombed and died, now it’s o-so easy to interrupt and counter them: they are soooo predictable. Same goes for the Revenant, all playstyles are the same (10 combinations available, yet they don’t differ greatly), not all skills are useful in every game mode: in a dungeon, using Shiro is a bit useless, in PvP Ventari is a bit more difficult to use at full potential, etc. I suppose they have a bit more ambition than turning it into a “face-roll on your keyboard hoping you have enough energy”…

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

sebradle.7034:

Would give you more than 20 different builds.

If you add a new utility skill to say shiro that would give you four utilities to choose from for three slots.

That is 4 choose 3 = 4 ways you can have a shiro bar

There is 5 legends so you have 5 choose 2 = 10 combinations of legends

So if you had shiro/ventari
4 ways to have shiro * 4 ways to have ventari = 16 different combinations of shiro/ventari load out

16 * 10 = 160 combinations of utility bars if you gave each legend a new utility.

I think my math is correct my combinatorics is a little rusty. Someone can check it if they want.

You’re absolutely right, I figured out I was totally off later, but didn’t take the time to come and correct myself So I’ll repeat myself, correctly this time, 160 is better than 10

Griffith.7238:

Yup 40480 combinations with only like maybe 3 viable ones .. gg

It all depends on the game mode and the playstyle. I play my mesmer differently than guildmate1, who also plays differently than guildmate2, etc. Some people just don’t like to stick to the meta

I play my mesmer in PvP differently than in WvW, and differently than in PvE. Yet in WvW, every mesmer players use them the same way. First time I got bombed and died, now it’s o-so easy to interrupt and counter them: they are soooo predictable. Same goes for the Revenant, all playstyles are the same (10 combinations available, yet they don’t differ greatly), not all skills are useful in every game mode: in a dungeon, using Shiro is a bit useless, in PvP Ventari is a bit more difficult to use at full potential, etc. I suppose they have a bit more ambition than turning it into a “face-roll on your keyboard hoping you have enough energy”…

Yes some people do play differently then most are you saying that’s not possible on the Rev? In fact not only do I believe that there are many options for customization within a single type of build for the Rev ,but I would say they have more options then any other class in the game.

Lets break it down.

Weapons:
Pretty much every class is restricted between weapons depending on the type of build they want to go (Power, condi, support, etc.) this is no different for the Rev. We only get 1 condi weapon ,but we get Staff, Hammer, Sword/Sword, and Sword/Axe for Power. Right there that’s 6 possible weapon combinations for the Power based Rev’s (without overlapping weapons more if you overlap)(we def need more condi variety ,but we have more then enough for power based).

Utilities:
So this where everyone else seems to think the Rev lacks in variety and customization. This could not be further from the truth. Lets look at the current classes. With the majority of the current classes they have a limited pool of useful utilities to work with. A lot of these utilities get thrown out right off the bat due to being practically useless ex. Guard Spirit Weapons, Thief Venoms, Thief Tricks, etc.. Now let’s say for instance we have two D/P Thief’s these Thief’s could not share a single utility meaning they both have all 3 utilities different from one another. You say that’s customization and in a degree it is however with those 3 different utilities they will still play like a D/P Thief meaning they are going to play generally the same way. Now lets look at Rev. The Rev has 4 Legends that can benefit a Power based build Glint/Jalis/Mallyx/Shiro. That is a total of 6 combinations all of which play not slightly ,but completely different from one another. Even if you only differ in one Legend from another player that is 1 Heal, 3 Utilities, and 1 Elite difference which is more unique then any other class can be with the same type of build and that’s not even touching on the people that use 2 different Legends such as one guy using Glint/Shiro the other using Jalis/Mallyx.

So there it is 6 different Weapon combinations and 6 different Legend combinations for just Power based builds. How can anyone ANYONE say that Rev does not have any room for individuality.

The fact of the matter is that yes the Legends are tailored for specific things ,but we don’t have to choose only 1.

Shiro/Glint: Mobility, Damage, Support
Mallyx/Glint: Condi Control/ Damage/ Support
Shiro/Mallyx: Mobility, Damage, Condi Control
Jalis/Shiro: Tank/Support/Mobility/Damage
Jalis/Mallyx: Tank/Support/Condi Control/Damage
Jalis/Glint: Tank/Support/Damage

Do you see where this is going? They all achieve similar things in completely different ways. I could use every single one of those with a Power based damage build. Sure some will definitely be better then others ,but will most be viable… yes. Half the people don’t care about viability in which case they will all be 100% viable. Look how much customization that is before you even consider the 6 weapon combinations.

PS. You really could throw Ventari in there as well ,but I’m not too happy with the state of that Legend at the moment and trying to do damage while moving that tablet around seems like a real chore so I left it out. Oh and I left out Shield kitten .

Griffith.7238:

snip

(Thief venoms, useless? You’re probably not a WvW player, as it is the meta for non-roaming thieves and it hurts a lot!)

I do agree completely with the weapon: each class is somehow restricted yet it offers different playstyles. But that’s not the point here.

If you play a mesmer in PvP, you won’t use the same build as a mesmer in PvE, another in dungeon, and a fourth one in WvW. When I see a mesmer in WvW, I wonder “Will they play interrupt/mantras? Will they hide-and-seek? Will they play punish?”, but when I see a Shiro Revenant, I know how they will play, I can easily counter and punish them. You have different combos, juste like the ones you’ve shown. But never will you say “Oh no, I didn’t expect that!” when meeting a Revenant.

Also, you said “With the majority of the current classes they have a limited pool of useful utilities to work with.” Indeed, some skills are useful while other are useless, that’s the problem we have with the Revenant: some skills are useful, others aren’t, but we have to use them.
Let’s take an example: I’m in WvW, with my guild, facing me there’s a blob. I use Jalis’ Forced Engagement (for 50 energy), I hit an enemy, they move towards me for 2 seconds. Either it will be dispelled by the enemy blob, or the enemy barely moves towards me to be efficient. It is somehow useless in WvW.
Also, a Mallyx Revenant will have more difficulties in WvW due to blobs cleansing their members easily, as well as consumables that reduce condition duration by 40%.
In a dungeon, running a Shiro revenant isn’t that useful: Impossible Odds? Somehow useful, but with the zerk meta, it will make you finish the boss 1 second faster. Riposting Shadows? Yes, it is useful. Phase Traversal? The dungeons are small, no need to shadowstep that much, and the unblockable part isn’t that needed, since most bosses melt quickly with a good group. Jade Wind? Useless against bosses.

So saying it’s ok is like saying you have to use Guardians’ Spirit Weapons or Thieves’ Tricks, even though you think they are useless within the game mode you play.

Edit: also you say you’re leaving Ventari out… But some people prefer to play heal, so it’s important to give it a chance (also it it useful in some Fractals and in WvW). You feel the same way about Ventari than other people feel about some skills: we’re not happy with the state of the utility skills.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Griffith.7238:

snip

(Thief venoms, useless? You’re probably not a WvW player, as it is the meta for non-roaming thieves and it hurts a lot!)

I do agree completely with the weapon: each class is somehow restricted yet it offers different playstyles. But that’s not the point here.

If you play a mesmer in PvP, you won’t use the same build as a mesmer in PvE, another in dungeon, and a fourth one in WvW. When I see a mesmer in WvW, I wonder “Will they play interrupt/mantras? Will they hide-and-seek? Will they play punish?”, but when I see a Shiro Revenant, I know how they will play, I can easily counter and punish them. You have different combos, juste like the ones you’ve shown. But never will you say “Oh no, I didn’t expect that!” when meeting a Revenant.

Also, you said “With the majority of the current classes they have a limited pool of useful utilities to work with.” Indeed, some skills are useful while other are useless, that’s the problem we have with the Revenant: some skills are useful, others aren’t, but we have to use them.
Let’s take an example: I’m in WvW, with my guild, facing me there’s a blob. I use Jalis’ Forced Engagement (for 50 energy), I hit an enemy, they move towards me for 2 seconds. Either it will be dispelled by the enemy blob, or the enemy barely moves towards me to be efficient. It is somehow useless in WvW.
Also, a Mallyx Revenant will have more difficulties in WvW due to blobs cleansing their members easily, as well as consumables that reduce condition duration by 40%.
In a dungeon, running a Shiro revenant isn’t that useful: Impossible Odds? Somehow useful, but with the zerk meta, it will make you finish the boss 1 second faster. Riposting Shadows? Yes, it is useful. Phase Traversal? The dungeons are small, no need to shadowstep that much, and the unblockable part isn’t that needed, since most bosses melt quickly with a good group. Jade Wind? Useless against bosses.

So saying it’s ok is like saying you have to use Guardians’ Spirit Weapons or Thieves’ Tricks, even though you think they are useless within the game mode you play.

Edit: also you say you’re leaving Ventari out… But some people prefer to play heal, so it’s important to give it a chance (also it it useful in some Fractals and in WvW). You feel the same way about Ventari than other people feel about some skills: we’re not happy with the state of the utility skills.

So all those unideal situations for each legend you came up with. Why are you taking those legends in those situations over another legend? You pretty much said shiro is junk in dungeons why even slot it then. Would I go full venom thief in a dungeon no because it isn’t very effective.

Edit: Gonna reiterate this point also if we did get more utilities for each legend they are going to stay within each legends area of game play and theme of the legend.

Shiro: mobility/damage
Jallis: control/tankiness
Ventari: support through healing
Mallyx: Condition control
Glint: support through buffs/ dragon actives

A new utility for shiro would give might/fury or whatever not condition removal. I’m a little confused what utility you guys want. Give me an example of a utility for Shiro that you think would give variety to the legend while in theme and fitting of the Assassin (offensive) loadout.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Griffith.7238:

snip

(Thief venoms, useless? You’re probably not a WvW player, as it is the meta for non-roaming thieves and it hurts a lot!)

I do agree completely with the weapon: each class is somehow restricted yet it offers different playstyles. But that’s not the point here.

If you play a mesmer in PvP, you won’t use the same build as a mesmer in PvE, another in dungeon, and a fourth one in WvW. When I see a mesmer in WvW, I wonder “Will they play interrupt/mantras? Will they hide-and-seek? Will they play punish?”, but when I see a Shiro Revenant, I know how they will play, I can easily counter and punish them. You have different combos, juste like the ones you’ve shown. But never will you say “Oh no, I didn’t expect that!” when meeting a Revenant.

Also, you said “With the majority of the current classes they have a limited pool of useful utilities to work with.” Indeed, some skills are useful while other are useless, that’s the problem we have with the Revenant: some skills are useful, others aren’t, but we have to use them.
Let’s take an example: I’m in WvW, with my guild, facing me there’s a blob. I use Jalis’ Forced Engagement (for 50 energy), I hit an enemy, they move towards me for 2 seconds. Either it will be dispelled by the enemy blob, or the enemy barely moves towards me to be efficient. It is somehow useless in WvW.
Also, a Mallyx Revenant will have more difficulties in WvW due to blobs cleansing their members easily, as well as consumables that reduce condition duration by 40%.
In a dungeon, running a Shiro revenant isn’t that useful: Impossible Odds? Somehow useful, but with the zerk meta, it will make you finish the boss 1 second faster. Riposting Shadows? Yes, it is useful. Phase Traversal? The dungeons are small, no need to shadowstep that much, and the unblockable part isn’t that needed, since most bosses melt quickly with a good group. Jade Wind? Useless against bosses.

So saying it’s ok is like saying you have to use Guardians’ Spirit Weapons or Thieves’ Tricks, even though you think they are useless within the game mode you play.

Edit: also you say you’re leaving Ventari out… But some people prefer to play heal, so it’s important to give it a chance (also it it useful in some Fractals and in WvW). You feel the same way about Ventari than other people feel about some skills: we’re not happy with the state of the utility skills.

Have yet to see a single build on meta battle (and lets be honest those are the meta builds) that use any venom other then basilisk. Spirit weapons haven’t been useful for a very long time. Again like I said some people don’t care about “meta” in which case everything is viable to them.

Most builds are not read by their utilities ,but by their weapon skills. I can tell what an enemy has up their sleeve based on what weapons they are using 90% of the time. Mesmers happen to be the class I know least about ,but especially when it comes to all the classes I play (Guardian, Thief, Ranger, Warrior) I know exactly what build their running once I see their weapons. Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight. Just because you know a Rev’s Legend doesn’t mean you know their second Legend for starters and it’ll also doesn’t provide any more of an advantage then you get from seeing what weapons most other classes are using. It’s like saying oh look its an elementalist oh and he is using dagger/dagger (big shocker they all are) now he can’t kill me because I know what build he is running. What you think you are going to be unbeatable by a Rev just cause you know what Legends he is using?

I left Ventari out not because of a personal choice ,but because I don’t see it as viable. Where as the other 6 choices I do see as viable. Ventari would most likely not be viable because trying to manage that tablet while focusing on dealing damage will be incredibly hard. Sure some highly skilled players might do it ,but the Legends that provide a benefit to damage don’t really have synergy with Ventari so what’s the point?

Mallyx on a power build? You would only use the heal skill and pain absorption.
You wouldn’t have much benefit from the other both utilities. They have a high energy consume, and you would only benefit from the displacement in certain situations as well as the boon rip. And the elite in a power build ist completely useless.
Anyway I would never pick mallyx in a power build. (In a hybrid I would pick him.for sure) But hey that’s fine for me. There are still enough other legends to pick from.
And each of these combinations will feel completely different and that’s good.

f you picked on of these combination of legend and weapons, you a forced in all skills. Everyone with this combinations has the same skills. It feels like hey we bring you a new playable race but they will all look the same because you have only 1 face 1 hair 1 size and so on. But hey don’t be sad you can still chose your class and wear different armor.

you don’t have a single change option to make some lttile changes in skills when you have chose for example glint and jalis. While as an cantrip ele you still have the option to pick up a non cantrip skill.

I want the possibility of more build variety by these small changes to 1 or 2 skills of your legend. I totally agree that the revenant hast enough build variety in the greater changes section. But I miss the personal adjustments really bad

@griffith you just said “Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight”
So why shouldn’t get the revenant a little bit more room in skill options? It will not hurt anyone, but it will Providence those little tweaks in the skill section that is important to some people.

NeroBoron.7285:

Mallyx on a power build? You would only use the heal skill and pain absorption.
You wouldn’t have much benefit from the other both utilities. They have a high energy consume, and you would only benefit from the displacement in certain situations as well as the boon rip. And the elite in a power build ist completely useless.
Anyway I would never pick mallyx in a power build. (In a hybrid I would pick him.for sure) But hey that’s fine for me. There are still enough other legends to pick from.
And each of these combinations will feel completely different and that’s good.

f you picked on of these combination of legend and weapons, you a forced in all skills. Everyone with this combinations has the same skills. It feels like hey we bring you a new playable race but they will all look the same because you have only 1 face 1 hair 1 size and so on. But hey don’t be sad you can still chose your class and wear different armor.

you don’t have a single change option to make some lttile changes in skills when you have chose for example glint and jalis. While as an cantrip ele you still have the option to pick up a non cantrip skill.

I want the possibility of more build variety by these small changes to 1 or 2 skills of your legend. I totally agree that the revenant hast enough build variety in the greater changes section. But I miss the personal adjustments really bad

Yeah I think new utilities would definitely add the feel of this is my load out and the fun of messing around with different builds. For me though like Gw2 in general is pretty bad when it comes to variety of builds. Also I play a lot of moba games so the whole single kit thing doesn’t bother me much. I can definitely see how it bother some though.

sebradle.7034:

So all those unideal situations for each legend you came up with. Why are you taking those legends in those situations over another legend? You pretty much said shiro is junk in dungeons why even slot it then. Would I go full venom thief in a dungeon no because it isn’t very effective.

snip

Give me an example of a utility for Shiro that you think would give variety to the legend while in theme and fitting of the Assassin (offensive) loadout.

That’s the point, my friend: why would you use something you deem useless? That’s what we HAVE to do with the Revenant: each useful skill HAS to come with useless skills. So if you want one venom in dungeon for your thief, you’ll have to use all venoms, you can’t even swap one you prefer.

For the example, as I said on another topic:

• Mallyx Wild Smash similar to Warrior’s Stomp, or Summoning Shadows that blinds nearby foes.
• Shiro Echoing Banishment short-range skill that makes the enemy shadowstep backwards.
• Ventari Pacifism short to mid-range skill that stuns enemies so they cannot attack (1 to 3 enemies maximum).
• Jalis Dwarven Battle Stance your next 5 attacks are unblokable.
• Glint Jagged Crystal Skin gain Retaliation but move a bit slower (maybe?).

See, the skills match the theme, yet they offer a variety of gameplay that can be more efficient in other game modes. Imagine playing a Ventari in WvW (again, it is my main game mode, I’m biased), and “oh no you are attacked at close range”, bam, Pacifism gives you some time to move/protect yourself without suffering huge burst of damage (since the healing on Ventari is quite slow).

Griffith.7238:

Have yet to see a single build on meta battle (and lets be honest those are the meta builds) that use any venom other then basilisk. Spirit weapons haven’t been useful for a very long time. Again like I said some people don’t care about “meta” in which case everything is viable to them.

That’s the point: if you wanted to use the elite venom, you’d have to slot all venoms. That’s why it is a bit “unfair” as a Revenant to be forced to use skills that aren’t effective for the sake of having one that is.

I left Ventari out not because of a personal choice ,but because I don’t see it as viable. Where as the other 6 choices I do see as viable. Ventari would most likely not be viable because trying to manage that tablet while focusing on dealing damage will be incredibly hard. Sure some highly skilled players might do it ,but the Legends that provide a benefit to damage don’t really have synergy with Ventari so what’s the point?

Well, Ventari is viable: why focus on dealing damage if you prefer healing/support? Ventari/Glint would be really good for that particular case.

NeroBoron.7285:

@griffith you just said “Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight”
So why shouldn’t get the revenant a little bit more room in skill options? It will not hurt anyone, but it will Providence those little tweaks in the skill section that is important to some people.

Because the Revenant is the one exception to this rule. Our Utilities are stronger and we get access to more of them (at once). With that said it doesn’t change the structure of PvP. Just knowing what someones build is isn’t enough to defeat them. Even if someone counters you if your skill outweighs theirs its enough to overcome the counter.

Mallyx is exceptional for Power based builds. The Elite is the whole point. 10% boost to stats is pretty big. It’s already being theorycrafted that Shiro/Mallyx will be maximum DPS output for Revs.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Well, Ventari is viable: why focus on dealing damage if you prefer healing/support? Ventari/Glint would be really good for that particular case.

I think you miss understood me. I meant it was not viable for the builds I was referring to (Power Based Damage) not that it wasn’t viable at all. It’s excellent for Support especially with the fix to the outgoing healing traits ,but trying to be a damage dealer and manage the tablet is not something I would recommend.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

That’s the point: if you wanted to use the elite venom, you’d have to slot all venoms. That’s why it is a bit “unfair” as a Revenant to be forced to use skills that aren’t effective for the sake of having one that is.

This is not a valid point. Shy of Glint (all skills are signets though still not sure if they are even labeled as such) the Revs utilities are not broken down into categories like the other classes aka Signets, Shouts, Meditations, Tricks, Deception, Cantrips, Banner’s etc. This is in fact the sole reason a lot of the the current classes’ utilities go unused. Rev’s were designed with the idea of receiving less utilities overall so more functionality was baked into each one. Look at Facet of Darkness as an example Pulses Fury, Blinds, is a Stun Break, and an AoE Reveal. That’s a lot of stuff for one Utility. So I will say it again this is the theme they clearly wanted to go for they actually wanted to make a class different from the rest (You know unlike the current classes that all have some combination of 25% movement speed signet, precision signet, power signet, toughness signet, real variety there guys). So Instead of adding new utilities they should increase the functionality on the current ones and balance from there.

I don’t get why some people are opposing this idea so passionately?
How could it ever be a bad thing to have more options?

Griffith.7238:

NeroBoron.7285:

@griffith you just said “Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight”
So why shouldn’t get the revenant a little bit more room in skill options? It will not hurt anyone, but it will Providence those little tweaks in the skill section that is important to some people.

Because the Revenant is the one exception to this rule. Our Utilities are stronger and we get access to more of them (at once). With that said it doesn’t change the structure of PvP. Just knowing what someones build is isn’t enough to defeat them. Even if someone counters you if your skill outweighs theirs its enough to overcome the counter.

I think we won’t came to the same point here I don’t think that’s just the case here, while you do. And I guess we will only truely know if we could test it. ^^

The utilities for me didn’t felt stronger then those of other classe, at least speaking for me. Yeah there are few skills that are strong yet, which I expect to get nerfed a little. But there are also spells that are not that strong. And still the revenant is limited by the energy so you just can’t use them the whole time.
And only to have more doesn’t mean anything the ele has attunements which are basically then 4 weapon sets which doesn’t make him that much stronger. Same goes for engineer. You can go for 5 kits + a weapon, and still have your F1-F5 skills.

Griffith.7238:

This is not a valid point. Shy of Glint (all skills are signets though still not sure if they are even labeled as such) the Revs utilities are not broken down into categories like the other classes aka Signets, Shouts, Meditations, Tricks, Deception, Cantrips, Banner’s etc. This is in fact the sole reason a lot of the the current classes’ utilities go unused. Rev’s were designed with the idea of receiving less utilities overall so more functionality was baked into each one. Look at Facet of Darkness as an example Pulses Fury, Blinds, is a Stun Break, and an AoE Reveal. That’s a lot of stuff for one Utility. So I will say it again this is the theme they clearly wanted to go for they actually wanted to make a class different from the rest (You know unlike the current classes that all have some combination of 25% movement speed signet, precision signet, power signet, toughness signet, real variety there guys). So Instead of adding new utilities they should increase the functionality on the current ones and balance from there.

My bad about the Ventari’s misunderstanding. But here, it is you who misunderstand: they are divided into categories: Assassin, Centaur, Demon, Dragon, and Dwarf stances. If they weren’t, every trait, like Nefarious Momentum or Demonic Defiance, would work on every skill.

Indeed the Revenant skills do many things, but if less skills do more, why not remove utilities altogether and give everything to the Elite: healing, stun break, AoE conditions, AoE boons, invincibility, etc. I know this is overexaggerating, but think of it: in the end, every new specialization will need only one skill, and people would be kittened.

I liked GW1 a lot (even if it was a balancing nightmare) because you could create the build that you really wanted. In GW2, we had less opportunities but we still managed to find a playstyle that suits us, and now with the Revenant with have less again, being somehow forced to play a really restricted range of ways (Ventari and Shiro and too opposite to be a meta). The class might be different, built with this idea of “not like every other class”, but in the end it will just be the same for everyone.

If the class can be balanced as it is, there’s not really an issue. And, well, it should be easier to balance this way anyway.

Wandelaar.3746:

I don’t get why some people are opposing this idea so passionately?
How could it ever be a bad thing to have more options?

More options isn’t always a good thing. By giving more options that means you have to put work into making all options equally viable. As we see in Guild Wars 2 there is a big issue with that because a lot of options for other classes see very little use. The original Guild Wars was known as “Build” Wars because it had so many options it ended up like a trading card game. They found the balancing of that difficult and moved to the system now in Guild Wars 2. From my view the easiest thing to balance and make fun is a set kit. Kind of like we have now with the legends. It has the advantage of having skills that better interact and compliment one another. But by having a set kit you lose out on the fun of customization which I think a lot of people look for in mmos.

sebradle.7034:

Wandelaar.3746:

I don’t get why some people are opposing this idea so passionately?
How could it ever be a bad thing to have more options?

More options isn’t always a good thing. By giving more options that means you have to put work into making all options equally viable. As we see in Guild Wars 2 there is a big issue with that because a lot of options for other classes see very little use. The original Guild Wars was known as “Build” Wars because it had so many options it ended up like a trading card game. They found the balancing of that difficult and moved to the system now in Guild Wars 2. From my view the easiest thing to balance and make fun is a set kit. Kind of like we have now with the legends. It has the advantage of having skills that better interact and compliment one another. But by having a set kit you lose out on the fun of customization which I think a lot of people look for in mmos.

That was something i totaly loved in gw1 But yeah I know that this was a totally horror for them to balance. And thats why they have to find a middle way between easy to balance and customization.

You know what would be really easy to balance? Give every profession 1 skill

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

In GW2, we had less opportunities but we still managed to find a playstyle that suits us

The class might be different, built with this idea of “not like every other class”, but in the end it will just be the same for everyone.

If you can’t find a playstyle in the Rev that suits you then the class isn’t for you it’s really that simple. If you think adding a few Utilities is somehow going to change the play style so drastically that it all of a sudden is for you that just won’t be the case. As I’ve stated in great detail changing Utilities (especially on the other classes) does not change the way any particular build plays. Just because one D/P Thief uses Blinding Powder and the other doesn’t does not mean they don’t both play like a D/P Thief. What does change the way you play is changing an entire Legend. Which even if you changed all 5 skills on the right side of the bar on another class it still doesn’t have the same effect as changing a Legend because you are locked into the skills when you change a Legend and each Legend itself has a different playstyle associated with it. The Utilities current classes have access too are so basic or have too long of cooldown’s to have any real impact in play style.

You also say this class will be the same for everyone so either you didn’t read my post at all or you can’t comprehend what I just laid out. This class will not be the same for everyone. As I showed above there will be a variety of ways just to play one type of build based on the Weapons and Legends you choose to go with.

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Griffith.7238:

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Guardian’s “Feel My Wrath!” provides 5 sec of quickness, yeah, it’s 30 sec, but it’s AoE, + 10 sec of Fury and doesn’t punish your other skills (viz Energy)
EDIT: Yeah, sorry, this one is Elite skill. But still, I don’t think that overall rev’s utilities are stronger, they are as strong as other classes utilities

Avador.8934:

Griffith.7238:

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Guardian’s “Feel My Wrath!” provides 5 sec of quickness, yeah, it’s 30 sec, but it’s AoE, + 10 sec of Fury and doesn’t punish your other skills (viz Energy)

It’s more then double the cd. I rest my case.

Griffith.7238:

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Revenant’s utilities are not stronger than other classes utilities. The fact they have low or no cd is heavily compensated by their dependence on energy. Sure, you can have Impossible Odds active for a few more seconds, but prepare to deal with the fact that you will be soon out of energy, because you will probably want to use some other skills to make any benefit from this one. And Rev without energy = dead Rev.

I get that some people might think Revs are fine with the skills they have, but why the vitriol? Is it really so bad that other people think the Rev needs some customization?

Adamantium.3682:

I get that some people might think Revs are fine with the skills they have, but why the vitriol? Is it really so bad that other people think the Rev needs some customization?

This is the definition of the internet (edit: the world). People love to senselessly argue without logic or reasoning. There is no point responding sometimes.

Avador.8934:

Griffith.7238:

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Revenant’s utilities are not stronger than other classes utilities. The fact they have low or no cd is heavily compensated by their dependence on energy. Sure, you can have Impossible Odds active for a few more seconds, but prepare to deal with the fact that you will be soon out of energy, because you will probably want to use some other skills to make any benefit from this one. And Rev without energy = dead Rev.

While I agree that Legend Swapping on cooldown is not the best solution for the overall feel of the class it is still “A” solution. If you have watched any of the videos of players with a decent understanding of the class you will see that they pretty much blow through their energy then swap to get 50 more. You only need to make that 50 energy last 10 sec before you can get 50 more for free so that isn’t that hard to do.

Griffith.7238:

Avador.8934:

Griffith.7238:

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Revenant’s utilities are not stronger than other classes utilities. The fact they have low or no cd is heavily compensated by their dependence on energy. Sure, you can have Impossible Odds active for a few more seconds, but prepare to deal with the fact that you will be soon out of energy, because you will probably want to use some other skills to make any benefit from this one. And Rev without energy = dead Rev.

While I agree that Legend Swapping on cooldown is not the best solution for the overall feel of the class it is still “A” solution. If you have watched any of the videos of players with a decent understanding of the class you will see that they pretty much blow through their energy then swap to get 50 more. You only need to make that 50 energy last 10 sec before you can get 50 more for free so that isn’t that hard to do.

Ok, even if this makes rev utilities ‘stronger’, as you wrote, still I don’t understand how is it related to your opinion that Revenant shouldn’t get more utilities to choose from. I don’t know why would it be so bad if he gets more ways to customize his right side of bar.
If Rev get 1 more utility per legend, then:
+ More customization (150 more combinations)
+ Less predictability
+ New interesting skills
+ More happy players (I am sure many will appreciate this)
+ Chance to not slot utilities we don’t want = Not wasting utility slots
- A little harder balancing

Those utilities shouldn’t be here to make Rev stronger, but to create more ways how to play him. 5 more skills is not so much, but they can add that feel of free choice that some players are still missing in Rev.

Still hoping for a response from a Dev/Roy whether that i will take a look at it or if they had a discussion about something like that before what their conclusion was

Another good point from VocalThought.9835 in another thread: what is about racial skills? If we had a independent general skillpool you could just add them there.