Guild Wars 2

So Revenant should fill that heavy profession gap with mid HP pool and no weapon swap. It was all reasonable until devs ideas was washed out by river of tears.

So I expect now weapon swap to eles and engis aswell. Its all just about crying enough.

lol ill be happy to remove weapon swap for revenant, if you give him healing turret and kits

more specifically i want tool kit and nade kit, thanks.

imagine, i can pull from range then go in to a quickness sword 3 combo, epic.

Rozbuska.5263:

So Revenant should fill that heavy profession gap with mid HP pool and no weapon swap. It was all reasonable until devs ideas was washed out by river of tears.

So I expect now weapon swap to eles and engis aswell. Its all just about crying enough.

It was all reasonable until you realized that swapping uncustomizable utilities was nothing like swapping weapon kits and attunements.

Give rev conjured weapons and attunement then :P
Oh and customizable utilities then
we even have no swiftnes ooc

People comparing this to Engineers and Elementalists… annoys me.

Engineers basically switch a utility slot for 5 new weapon skills and are able to switch in and out of them without any cooldown. Elementalists still have 4 attunements granting 5 weapon skills each. Neither are even comparable to the situation of Revenants.

While I don’t like or fully agree with the weapon swapping, I think this was the best solution to a relatively big problem.

EDIT:
Oh crud I even forgot about conjures.

Engineer’s class mechanic isn’t the kits, though – it is the toolbelt – a bar of toned down utilities. Essentially more utilities in exchange of less weapon skills. Sure, there are kits, but they’re optional – and paid with utility slots.

Whereas revenants get an additional bar of normal ones on swap. And now even a second weapon set. All for free.

They’ve just thrown the design of the engineer under the bus, basically. Not that i’m surprised – they have to find some way to sell the expansion to people, after all.

So, a Revenant will ALWAYS have 20 skills, no more than that. Okay.

Engi, they get 5 from their weapon, and then 5 utilities. Now also 5 toolbelts. That is a minimum of 15, but what Engi doesn’t run kits? so subtract one utilitiy, and then add 5 abilities. Most builds I know run 2 kits, at least, that is the norm. That means 24 skills total, more than a rev with weapon swap, meaning engi has more options in combat WITHOUT a resource to spend.

Now we have ele, who already has a minimum of 25, even more than the engi. That is if we don’t use conjure weapon, same math, but as you can see… yeah.

Long story short, you can’t compare these, at all. Rev has a resource, 18 of the 20 skills use the resource, and then wait for the CD. Other classes, just CD. Now the Rev does get more skills than other classes, but you cannot compare them to engi or ele, please stop with it.

Manuhell.2759:

Engineer’s class mechanic isn’t the kits, though – it is the toolbelt – a bar of toned down utilities. Essentially more utilities in exchange of less weapon skills. Sure, there are kits, but they’re optional – and paid with utility slots.

Whereas revenants get an additional bar of normal ones on swap. And now even a second weapon set. All for free.

They’ve just thrown the design of the engineer under the bus, basically. Not that i’m surprised – they have to find some way to sell the expansion to people, after all.

Optional yes, but still has them. 1 kit and toolbelt is far more than what revenants have now, because utility skill swap barely compensates for the lack of customization.

Engi can choose his utility skills making great combinations.

Not even factoring energy cost restriction here

Manuhell.2759:

Engineer’s class mechanic isn’t the kits, though – it is the toolbelt – a bar of toned down utilities. Essentially more utilities in exchange of less weapon skills. Sure, there are kits, but they’re optional – and paid with utility slots.

Whereas revenants get an additional bar of normal ones on swap. And now even a second weapon set. All for free.

They’ve just thrown the design of the engineer under the bus, basically. Not that i’m surprised – they have to find some way to sell the expansion to people, after all.

I’m not following you or agree for that matter. If our toolbelt skills are our profession mechanics, how exactly then is that mechanic or flavor being thrown under the bus by Revenants getting weapon swapping with their pre-existing utility swapping?

Sure our kits are optional, but most engineer builds revolve around or incorporate kits. The reason why we even have toolbelt skills are our profession mechanic is because we would otherwise lose utilities by equipping kits. Fact of the matter is that ArenaNet assumes that we will be using kits. Kits and toolbelt skills work hand-in-hand in the assumptions about our profession and how it is designed to optimally function.

We can swap kits quicker than elementalists can swap attunements. We kit dance all the time. It’s how we frequently generate our combos and a number of our damage rotations. E.g. Flamethrower cast Napalm + Flame Blast + Detonate Flame Blast → Elixir Gun cast Acid Bomb → Flamethrower Juggernaut to generate Might stacks.

I keep four kits on my main engineer: grenade (main dps kit), elixir (utility support + stun break), tool (blocks, melee, projective finisher), and mortar (fields, long range, blast finisher). I use my kits as I would weapon skills.

Kits are often our main weapons even more so than the actual equipped weapon itself. Our toolbelt skills, while weaker than regular utilities, still often have a lot of functionality on a relatively smaller cooldown, whether providing fields (water and fire!), finishers (projectile, blast), big damage, knockbacks, condition removal, stun breaks, etc. Heck. There are players who would equip certain kits for the toolbelt skill alone. Elixir kit anyone?

I can tell you as a player with two level 80 Engineers that I don’t feel that the Revenant is stepping on my toes, even with the addition of weapon swap. The Revenant still looks as if it has far less flexibility and customization than my Engineers. Revenants cannot choose how many legends they want; they are stuck with two. As a Revenant, I’ll have my two equipped weapons and swappable legend utilities, which will be twenty skills. As an Engineer, I can have four kits, my equipped weapon, and my toolbelt skills. How would you like to count that? Twenty five skills and loose change?

Genesis.8572:

I’m not following you or agree for that matter. If our toolbelt skills are our profession mechanics, how exactly then is that mechanic or flavor being thrown under the bus by Revenants getting weapon swapping with their pre-existing utility swapping?

Because it doesn’t make sense anymore in terms of “costs”, that’s the issue.
The default is having two weapon slots, an utility bar and a class mechanic.
Elementalists lose a weapon slot in order to get multiple elemental-themed weapon sets, albeit weaker (as in, longer cooldowns and such).
Engineers lose a weapon slot in order to get an additional bar of skills paired with their utilities, albeit weaker. And as far as balance design goes, the engineer’s main weapon is also supposed to be weak.
Revenants get a different bar of utilities on swap and a sort of energy system that resembles thieves’ main weapon (sure, some skills have short cooldowns in addition to the cost, but that’s only to avoid them being spammed; also, they get half bar on swap).
Even if the skills they get are fixed (but that’s true for the engineer as well, anyway – toolbelts are tied to the single utilities like legends are tied with the full set of utilities) they still get a full bar of them (and i wouldn’t say they’re weaker than usual ones either).
It made sense that there was a cost to pay for the added versatility of having more skills available – namely, the second weapon set.
Now they’re basically getting it “for free”. Unlike engineers (and elementalists).
So, what’s the point of the “prices” paid by those two? Especially by the engineer, since the revenant end up with what essentially is a second utility bar – sure, on swap and with energy costs instead of cooldowns, but still made by proper utilities.

Genesis.8572:

Sure our kits are optional, but most engineer builds revolve around or incorporate kits. The reason why we even have toolbelt skills are our profession mechanic is because we would otherwise lose utilities by equipping kits. Fact of the matter is that ArenaNet assumes that we will be using kits. Kits and toolbelt skills work hand-in-hand in the assumptions about our profession and how it is designed to optimally function.

And balance wise it is completely nonsensical. What’s the point of any other category of utilities if engineers are supposed to just use kits and are supposedly designed or balanced over their use? That’s something you can do for things you give natively – not for something optional.

Genesis.8572:

-cut because the whole post doesn’t fit in a single one otherwise-

Oh, indeed they end up being essential (and throw the supposed customization under the bus, since we end up using always the same kits and maybe something else just because kits can’t do that particular thing). That only makes more apparent how nonsensical the design is – optional utilities that end up being essentially forced choices becuase the class would be terrible without them.

Genesis.8572:

I can tell you as a player with two level 80 Engineers that I don’t feel that the Revenant is stepping on my toes, even with the addition of weapon swap. The Revenant still looks as if it has far less flexibility and customization than my Engineers. Revenants cannot choose how many legends they want; they are stuck with two. As a Revenant, I’ll have my two equipped weapons and swappable legend utilities, which will be twenty skills. As an Engineer, I can have four kits, my equipped weapon, and my toolbelt skills. How would you like to count that? Twenty five skills and loose change?

Engineers have no customization or flexibility as well, in practice – either you use kits (and thus their toolbelts) or you are for the most part useless.
And even if you end up with many skills…most of them will end up being not much effective. Since kits are essentially hybrid weapons. Not that they’re that strong either, anyway – the only reason why it works is that we can just efficently rotate the cooldowns due of the lack of limitations on swap.
In the end, revenants end up having a mechanic that is (thieves+engineers’ mechanic)^2. More utilities than the first, more weapons than the second, and versatile use of utilities alike thieves can versatily use their weapons.

And i can’t think this wasn’t being done for any other reason than selling more copies of the expansion, anyway – can’t have one of the selling points seem weak (or even average), after all.

Rozbuska.5263:

So Revenant should fill that heavy profession gap with mid HP pool and no weapon swap. It was all reasonable until devs ideas was washed out by river of tears.

So I expect now weapon swap to eles and engis aswell. Its all just about crying enough.

There is no ‘gap’ unless you want to see it there.
And not all feedback that doesn’t match your opinion is ‘crying’.

Kits are customization. You have many to choose from.

Eles have attunement, engi have toolbelt skills and kits. They don’t need weapon swap, revenants did.

I agree with poster above and am saying this as someone who plays Engineer since the very first Closed Beta of GW2.

I agree with the OP—it’s extremely disappointing to see them renege on the design and resort back to the generic class setup instead of actually fixing the mechanic so that it was on par with Elementalist and Engineer. I was really hoping this would be the heavy armor class for me, but I guess not.

I feel it might be too overwhelming because weapon swapping and legend swapping means that neither of our skill bars are “set”. This can prove a cognitive challenge because even with engineers and elementalists, the utility bar is always fixed. You know you’ll always get X when you press 0. But with revenant you have the additional cognative load of remembering which legend you have selected.

So you have 1-5 changing and 6-0 also changing. So I think weapons swap will be taken away before final release.

Tinni.4351:

I feel it might be too overwhelming because weapon swapping and legend swapping means that neither of our skill bars are “set”. This can prove a cognitive challenge because even with engineers and elementalists, the utility bar is always fixed. You know you’ll always get X when you press 0. But with revenant you have the additional cognative load of remembering which legend you have selected.

So you have 1-5 changing and 6-0 also changing. So I think weapons swap will be taken away before final release.

Did you just say it might be too hard? My goodness. You know, I was a bit upset too like OP when they added weapon swap to Revenant but after a few minutes of thinking about it, I realized it makes complete sense. There is indeed a cognitive challenge of changing weapons and legends but that is where the reward of playing that class will come from. Knowing what to do when you switch to a different weapon with the currently equipped legend and knowing when to switch to your other legend. If anything, adding weapon swap will increase the skill gap required to play this class and hopefully add enough complexity to make it rewarding to be good at it.

Kidel.2057:

Kits are customization. You have many to choose from.

indeed, with a full kit setup you got access to FIVE of them at the same time AND a main weapon set AND a toolbar. I mean come on.. what else could you possible need? Certainly not a weapon swap.

Tinni.4351:

I feel it might be too overwhelming because weapon swapping and legend swapping means that neither of our skill bars are “set”. This can prove a cognitive challenge because even with engineers and elementalists, the utility bar is always fixed. You know you’ll always get X when you press 0. But with revenant you have the additional cognative load of remembering which legend you have selected.

So you have 1-5 changing and 6-0 also changing. So I think weapons swap will be taken away before final release.

The lack of energy on Elementalist means they can spam 30 skills in a row (including 2 conjured weapons and not counting healing/utility), without pausing, and once the rotation is over they can start again with all cooldowns recharged.

Revanant is still WAY inferior to this, both in terms of skill number, but also because energy prevents from spamming.
After a 10 weaponskill rotation you probably need to swap legend.
After an upkeep skill is used you also need to swap legend, or you can’t use weaponskills.
Revenant will be good at bursting, like thief (similar mechanic), but won’t have a lot of sustained damage.

Tinni.4351:

I feel it might be too overwhelming because weapon swapping and legend swapping means that neither of our skill bars are “set”. This can prove a cognitive challenge because even with engineers and elementalists, the utility bar is always fixed. You know you’ll always get X when you press 0. But with revenant you have the additional cognative load of remembering which legend you have selected.

So you have 1-5 changing and 6-0 also changing. So I think weapons swap will be taken away before final release.

Sorry, but I really cannot see any cognitive challenge here.
I think you’re underestimating the capability of human brains.

Rain.9213:

Tinni.4351:

I feel it might be too overwhelming because weapon swapping and legend swapping means that neither of our skill bars are “set”. This can prove a cognitive challenge because even with engineers and elementalists, the utility bar is always fixed. You know you’ll always get X when you press 0. But with revenant you have the additional cognative load of remembering which legend you have selected.

So you have 1-5 changing and 6-0 also changing. So I think weapons swap will be taken away before final release.

Did you just say it might be too hard? My goodness. You know, I was a bit upset too like OP when they added weapon swap to Revenant but after a few minutes of thinking about it, I realized it makes complete sense. There is indeed a cognitive challenge of changing weapons and legends but that is where the reward of playing that class will come from. Knowing what to do when you switch to a different weapon with the currently equipped legend and knowing when to switch to your other legend. If anything, adding weapon swap will increase the skill gap required to play this class and hopefully add enough complexity to make it rewarding to be good at it.

I guess it depends on what you want out of a class. I mean, there are still elementalists who cannot do the “attunement dance”. Meaning that some struggle even with open world PvE. Supposedly HoT is going to have actual hard PvE content. This might well mean that the population of dedicated revenants would be quite small due to how challenging the class is. I am not saying this is a bad thing but if the new class is underplayed, it could mean bad things in terms of support going forward.

Alternatively, we can have players thinking the class wasn’t good because they can’t play it properly – an actual thing that plagued Elementalist at launch. We are going to get a surge of new players come HoT, I am just not sure how accessible revenant will be to the average players. Again, this doesn’t have to be a bad thing and I am all for revenant being the new hard mode class. But just saying that both bars swapping might be a bit much for some players.

AzureSky.3175:

Sorry, but I really cannot see any cognitive challenge here.
I think you’re underestimating the capability of human brains.

Human brain is a wonderful thing but there is a reason why a lot of MMO players gravitate towards “easy classes”. Maybe in current PvE both sides of your skill bar changing might not be a bad thing but I can already see revenant being a class reserved for expert players in PvP and even WvW. Indeed, if HoT PvE content really is challenging, I can see people continuing the whole “no revenant” thing not because the class is bad but because it is played by so many people who just can’t harness its full potential.

Kidel.2057:

The lack of energy on Elementalist means they can spam 30 skills in a row (including 2 conjured weapons and not counting healing/utility), without pausing, and once the rotation is over they can start again with all cooldowns recharged.

Revanant is still WAY inferior to this, both in terms of skill number, but also because energy prevents from spamming.
After a 10 weaponskill rotation you probably need to swap legend.
After an upkeep skill is used you also need to swap legend, or you can’t use weaponskills.
Revenant will be good at bursting, like thief (similar mechanic), but won’t have a lot of sustained damage.

That’s the problem though. If HoT is going to have actual hard PvE content, you should no longer be able to just spam skills. Indeed, I think it’s going to be more weapon + legend, i.e. hammer in Jarl stand, sword + Shiro stand. Not just spam of all skills. This is basically my issue. If we assume that spamming skills will no longer work in HoT, player Revenant properly might just be too much for a lot of people. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t mind but I worry about the effect it might have no revenant support going forward if the dedicated revenant player base is too small.

Tinni.4351:

I guess it depends on what you want out of a class. I mean, there are still elementalists who cannot do the “attunement dance”. Meaning that some struggle even with open world PvE. Supposedly HoT is going to have actual hard PvE content. This might well mean that the population of dedicated revenants would be quite small due to how challenging the class is. I am not saying this is a bad thing but if the new class is underplayed, it could mean bad things in terms of support going forward.

Alternatively, we can have players thinking the class wasn’t good because they can’t play it properly – an actual thing that plagued Elementalist at launch. We are going to get a surge of new players come HoT, I am just not sure how accessible revenant will be to the average players. Again, this doesn’t have to be a bad thing and I am all for revenant being the new hard mode class. But just saying that both bars swapping might be a bit much for some players.

Yeah I know what you mean and while I do think having a big enough population of Revenants is good, I think we as a community and Anet themselves want and hope that people will become actively engaged in battle and learn how to become good at their classes instead of just sitting back with Ranger longbow afk’ing with auto attack. If Anet is gonna be giving us challenging pve content that we hope will make us shed sweat and tears then we need people who come into this game to feel at least somewhat challenged by their class to improve in order to one day be ready for the difficult content ahead.

I don’t think that many people are going to switch to Revenant as main class. Just a small portion of the current player is going to change main, also because Revenant is not OP ant probably will never be because of the lack of customization, while they love and can use their class better.

New players will also see Revenant as a normal class, caring less or nothing about GW1 lore, and picking more thematic classes, like Necromancer (seriously, Reaper is cool), Thief, Guardian (a paladin/cleric/knight, yay!), Warrior, with Revenant being seen as a strange GW2-only class, like Mesmer.

Revenant is “new”, but not newer then Dragonhunter, Reaper, Chronomancer, Druid, Forge, Berserker, Tempest and staff-thief

And weaponswap doesn’t make Revenant stronger than normal classes, who can already weaponswap and pick their utility skills (also among racial), and use many cooldowns without energy cost restrictions.