Guild Wars 2

Regarding the video:

Meanwhile, those two thieves are kittening about how the two of them almost got beaten by a noob rev – moar nurfs plz.

Seriously, though, what I’m seeing there is that you went 1v2 and would have won except that you didn’t have a good answer to stealth. Sure, you could argue that the thief players were bad or that you did so well partially because it was WvW and you had advantages the thieves didn’t, but it’s not exactly persuading me that the skills you were using are so bad as to need rebuilding from the ground up.

Looking at the individual points you raised:

1: Using combinations of skills synergistically has been what Guild Wars has been about since 2004. So no, I don’t think “being forced” to use Vengeful Hammers to trigger all six daggers is a bad thing – I think it’s good use of the properties of different skills.

Yes, Shiro is supposed to be aggressive… which is why his heal skill is focused around remaining in combat. This may be a balancing factor as well as thematic: Shiro revs are hard to catch, and a stronger initial heal might well make it too easy for them to disengage, heal, then reengage.

Making the full current heal instantaneous (or even close to the full current heal) and having a big boost to six of your next few attacks would make it a ridiculously strong skill. Given that Assassin Stance is probably the most popular stance right now (since condi revs have typically been using Mallyx/Shiro), it seems to be doing fairly well even with the downsides of Enchanted Daggers.

In a previous discussion, you boasted about how Shiro allowed you to avoid damage that another stance would have to take in the face (reduced or otherwise). In another thread, you’re claiming that revenant needs to be made into a non-weaponswap profession because of the potential to chain blocks and other defences together. Have you considered that the weakness of Enchanted Daggers as an emergency heal – unless you can cover it with those blocks and evades you claim are too much until you can trigger all the daggers – may actually be a balancing factor to offset all that?

Buff Enchanted Daggers in the way you’re asking for, and I think it will require those other nerfs elsewhere.

(I’m also curious that you didn’t at least try before activating Jalis. It may not have felt like it at the time, but looking at the video, there was probably enough time to activate ED, switch, and activate the hammers… which may have bought you enough time to get Soothing Stone off and for the NPCs to arrive.)

2: With the changes I’d suggested, you could use it to get 3-4 seconds of stability on initial use, and then pass over it again once that expires to get more – don’t need to be on the road for its entire duration to get the benefit. Even without that, though, sometimes a skill just isn’t the perfect one for the situation you’re in. This happens to every build, unless you’re in PvE reconfiguring your build against the specific content.

3: I’ve found that sometimes they do a great job at keeping you alive, sometimes the incoming damage is just too much. Defenses aren’t supposed to be perfect. Sometimes they buy you just enough time to win. Sometimes they get overwhelmed and you die. That’s the game.

4: See previous comments about everyone’s heals being interruptable, with a very short list of exceptions (Infuse Light being one of them, as long as you have Facet of Light running post-nerf).

5: As previously noted, you’re not losing damage, you’re dividing it. Sure, you’d probably prefer to keep it concentrated, by my preferred approach is to increase the damage in such situations to compensate for the loss of focus.

6. I think I see the spot you’re talking about – around 2:20? A straight stun might have helped – then again, it might not. If you’d used Grasping Shadows, it also might have helped (if it landed on the other (stealthed) thief, then switch to Shiro, PT in, and resume the beatdown). You may even have pulled off an old-fashioned stomp if you’d started it right away.

Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but I think if you’d done things differently you could have got a kill there (and finished off the other one shortly afterwards).

Updating a bit the list.

• Deva;
  1. Assassins Annihilator – removed from suggestion, sry hammer
  2. Dismantle Fortifications – changed to strip 5 stability stacks. Foes under 5 stacks will get cced. Sounds okay, too much?

• Shiro. Phase traversal – removed insta cast

• Sword mh. Precision strike coe reduced to 2.25

• Corruption. Frigid Precision – additional effect changed to provide 3 stacks of vul when chilling foe, no icd.

• Mallyx;

Pain Absortion – Provides 2sec of resistance by default on cast. No longer provides resistance from transfered conditions. Increased burning duration to 4sec

Embrace the Darkness – Changed to allow allies cleanse conditions off rev during the duration of this skill

• Retribution;

1. Eye For an Eye – removed icon from rev bar
2. Versed in Stone – removed from suggestion for now
3. Steadfast Rejuvenation – removed option 1, i doubt its realistic.

• Hammer.

1. Phase smash removed
2. Field of the Mists – 3/4sec casttime, in additional to projectile deflecting field launch foes (600 distance) in front of you so it doesnt feel completely useless when fighting non projectile class.

• Salvation

1. Serene Rejuvenation. Sugestion removed
2. Tranquil Benediction. Healing from a block reduced to 330 (0.5)
3. Invoking Harmony change slipped in notes. 20% to healing output at all times rather than for 10sec on swap.
4. .Momentary Pacification – reduced immobilize to 2sec

• Ventari

1. Ventari Will – added 1/4 casttime
2. Protective Solace – projectile conversion removed. -10 energy on cast so it can feel punishing for activating/deactivating.

Controversial stuff that need more feedback;

1. Enchanted Daggers
2. Precision Strike
3. UA
4. Grasping Shadow
5. Opportune Extraction
6. Soothing Stone
7. Vengeful Hammers
8. Rite of the Dwarf

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the video:

Meanwhile, those two thieves are kittening about how the two of them almost got beaten by a noob rev – moar nurfs plz.

Seriously, though, what I’m seeing there is that you went 1v2 and would have won except that you didn’t have a good answer to stealth. Sure, you could argue that the thief players were bad or that you did so well partially because it was WvW and you had advantages the thieves didn’t, but it’s not exactly persuading me that the skills you were using are so bad as to need rebuilding from the ground up.

Could have won it at the start tbh, notice that i swapped with over 60 energy in Shiro which i could use for jade winds but i thought it will be a nice material to support my points.

Using combinations of skills synergistically has been what Guild Wars has been about since 2004. So no, I don’t think “being forced” to use Vengeful Hammers to trigger all six daggers is a bad thing – I think it’s good use of the properties of different skills.

Yes, Shiro is supposed to be aggressive… which is why his heal skill is focused around remaining in combat. This may be a balancing factor as well as thematic: Shiro revs are hard to catch, and a stronger initial heal might well make it too easy for them to disengage, heal, then reengage.

Making the full current heal instantaneous (or even close to the full current heal) and having a big boost to six of your next few attacks would make it a ridiculously strong skill. Given that Assassin Stance is probably the most popular stance right now (since condi revs have typically been using Mallyx/Shiro), it seems to be doing fairly well even with the downsides of Enchanted Daggers.

Using a combination of skills is fine. Using a combination of skills to get your heal off is just lame and pathetic. In fact they could have easily stealth or kite to waste my skill. Which class has so much counter to healing ability? Not thief for sure with evade on withdraw that has no counterplay whatsoever. Pretty sure if i had Mallyx instead of Jalis with hammers i would die 100-0 as wouldnt be able to trigger daggers at all.

Meanwhile on dh i use litany wrath which is also aggressive but does much better job – trained 6k hp off the cast+extra (usually up to 5k in pvp) by playing aggressive. Im also pretty sure that you wont really escape from most classes using Shiro btw unless you have a target to cast PT.

Shiro healing is definitely too weak in current state to be any good. In all game modes except in pve where it used mostly as dps boostersduring boss encounters rathen than healing skill which should tell you something already.

I dont think i need to explain why WHAO was changed. It wasnt used as healing ability but as copy dem boons instead. ED has similiar situation, its used as dps boost rather than healing ability.

And like i said even if we go by lore it doesnt fit really. Lore actually support Shiro to be kitten in 1vX situation, my vid proves otherwise. Shiro ingame is 1v1 focused.

In a previous discussion, you boasted about how Shiro allowed you to avoid damage that another stance would have to take in the face (reduced or otherwise). In another thread, you’re claiming that revenant needs to be made into a non-weaponswap profession because of the potential to chain blocks and other defences together. Have you considered that the weakness of Enchanted Daggers as an emergency heal – unless you can cover it with those blocks and evades you claim are too much until you can trigger all the daggers – may actually be a balancing factor to offset all that?

Difference between Shiro ability and weapon skills is energy cost. 30 energy for riposte is not cheap compared to 2sec block for 10 energy. Covering the daggers by wasting cooldowns is not really a wise decision. First daggers has extremely low timer, its quite rare to proc all 6 actually. They get dodged, deflected/reflected or blocked quite often.

Second by wasting defensive abilities to cover one crappy healing skill im leaving myself vulnerable to burst.

Buff Enchanted Daggers in the way you’re asking for, and I think it will require those other nerfs elsewhere.

In which area? Removed damage from Shiro heal? Well im totally fine with that.

(I’m also curious that you didn’t at least try before activating Jalis. It may not have felt like it at the time, but looking at the video, there was probably enough time to activate ED, switch, and activate the hammers… which may have bought you enough time to get Soothing Stone off and for the NPCs to arrive.)

It wouldnt make any difference. Shiro has only 1,6k on activation so in the end i would still end up one shoted.

With the changes I’d suggested, you could use it to get 3-4 seconds of stability on initial use, and then pass over it again once that expires to get more – don’t need to be on the road for its entire duration to get the benefit. Even without that, though, sometimes a skill just isn’t the perfect one for the situation you’re in. This happens to every build, unless you’re in PvE reconfiguring your build against the specific content.

Thats the point. Its not really a practical skill nor really useful. Should i remind you that i cannot swap this skill?There are many areas in HOT where road is useless as well. For example Vinetooth in Auric. Anywhere outside of a point in conquest or static pve boss that stands in one place, road is absolutely useless. My suggestion actually brings it up to usable level in all game modes. Imagine necros being forced to stand in small field for stab in shroud 3.. oh boy.

I’ve found that sometimes they do a great job at keeping you alive, sometimes the incoming damage is just too much. Defenses aren’t supposed to be perfect. Sometimes they buy you just enough time to win. Sometimes they get overwhelmed and you die. That’s the game.

Hammers wouldnt be that bad if damage reduction was raised to 33% and didnt deactiveted due to terrain issues. But then again previous before nerf interraction was much better when it had the possibility to hit for twice as much it does now.

See previous comments about everyone’s heals being interruptable, with a very short list of exceptions (Infuse Light being one of them, as long as you have Facet of Light running post-nerf).

With the difference that soothing stone has very clear and slow animation. Also the vul part applies to example ~2;45 where i run away and during the heal animation thief nukes me hard. You think he would do anything if i had block? Nope. And if i had Glint? Yummy yummy hp.

Doesnt look so tanky, right? My ranger has 1sec on WHAO too btw but its not that highly telegraphed with a big icon above your head “interrupt me nao noob” and it has many tools to cover it – stealth being one of them.

As previously noted, you’re not losing damage, you’re dividing it. Sure, you’d probably prefer to keep it concentrated, by my preferred approach is to increase the damage in such situations to compensate for the loss of focus.

Dividing is equal to losing when we talk about single target. And as it stands now it happen only with precision and ua. In the whole game.

I think I see the spot you’re talking about – around 2:20? A straight stun might have helped – then again, it might not. If you’d used Grasping Shadows, it also might have helped (if it landed on the other (stealthed) thief, then switch to Shiro, PT in, and resume the beatdown). You may even have pulled off an old-fashioned stomp if you’d started it right away.

If it was stun instead of a pull with shadowstep back it wouldnt matter really. Cus even if i fail to hit thief and hit the downed body instead i wont be shadowstepped back at least. Thats is huge on it own. I also had swap on cd so pt wasnt really possible there.

As for the stomp..i doubt it. Rez happens too fast in this game. Funny i wasnt able to outdps rez with hammers and sword auto..

Wait… Let me understand this. You want to remove vicious lacerations in exchange for a passive 25% movement speed increase on a class that can easily maintain 100% uptime on swiftness or use super speed on demand? That’s stupid, sorry.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s hard to see what’s going on here, but it looks like you took the first two thousand damage before Rite triggered.

Rite activated on 1,7k mark.. Wolf or mob damage doesnt matter as damage from other sources doesnt stack. See pic.

By comprasion facet to rite

*Pros of facet;

-Pulsing protection every 3sec at cost of -5, can be used pretty much at any time unless someone wasted it for joke chaotic release
-Aoe up to 5 targets
-Insta cast, which means i can use it under cc
-Much higher or close to perma duration depending on what you doing.

Cons;

-protection can be corrupted, stripped/stealed
(But in the end it doesnt matter as it will be reapplied 1 sec later)
-17% lower reduction than rite

*Pros of rite;
-17% higher reduction than protection
-Aoe 5 target
-Not stripable
-In theory a stunbreak

Cons;
-Huge energy cost
-Huge animation cast
-Most of the time there wont be enough energy to cast it
-Can be interrupted easily

JayAction.9056:

Wait… Let me understand this. You want to remove vicious lacerations in exchange for a passive 25% movement speed increase on a class that can easily maintain 100% uptime on swiftness or use super speed on demand? That’s stupid, sorry.

Please show me how i can maintain perma swiftness on revenant with devastation, retribution, invocation traitlines without stopping in place for a 5 seconds, hammer weapon or Jalis. Im waiting. Super speed ooc works like swiftness and has only 50% uptime, i rather use the energy for PT. Thats stupid, sorry.

Burtnik.5218:

Please show me how i can maintain perma swiftness on revenant with devastation, retribution, invocation traitlines without stopping in place for a 5 seconds or hammer weapon. Super speed ooc works like swiftness and has only 50% uptime, i rather use the energy for PT. Thats stupid.

Dev, Ret, Inv traitlines?

1. I don’t even…
2. Use teleport in shiro.
3. You rather give up IN COMBAT functionality for OUT OF COMBAT functionality? Do you take fall traits too? lol

Okay, so the first arrows landing before the Rite was something you took into account. The video doesn’t show the combat log, so it wasn’t clear: I had to figure it out by pause-go methods.

Still, Rapid Fire is something that will normally put someone into “oh kitten!” mode unless they block it. And I’ve suggested putting a block on it.

Regarding your pros and cons:

For Facet of Chaos, you’ve listed a pro as being able to be used any time as long as it’s not on cooldown (Chaotic Release).

What you’ve missed, as a pretty significant con, is that you can only turn it off by using Facet of Chaos, legend-switching, or running your energy dry. All of which are going to limit when you can reasonably reactivate it next. RotGD requires a big chunk of energy to use, of course, so Facet of Chaos still has the advantage that it can be switched on at lower energy levels, but the fact remains that once Facet of Chaos is turned on it can be awkward to turn off.

On Rite, you’ve missed the pro that, if traited, it also provides damage resistance to conditions.

You’ve also inflated the list of cons by listing what are essentially the same cons twice. Not having the energy to use Rite is a consequence of having the high energy cost. Being able to be interrupted is a consequence of having a cast time (1.25s isn’t huge, it’s about average).

And my suggestions cover both of those cons. Covering the cast time with a block or invulnerability means the cast time itself is less of a disadvantage, and certainly stops it from being easily interrupted. That in itself would probably justify the casting cost, but if it doesn’t, I’m open to reducing the cost. That covers all of the cons you’ve listed without rebuilding the skill, and consequently needing to rebuild Vengeful Hammers in turn.

Regarding Enchanted Daggers:

So, it’s weak when used as an emergency heal? If you do land all the daggers, ~6500 base heal with a 1.45 coefficient is one of the strongest heals out there, especially when you consider that you’re playing the only profession that has two slot-6 heals available on separate cooldowns.

Sure, it’s possible that if it was chosen on its own, it wouldn’t see much play. However, revenant utility skills aren’t chosen on their own, but as part of a set, and as mentioned before Shiro is possibly the most popular revenant legend. While I understand it’s frustrating when a weakness of your build kills you, that suggests that the package as a whole is doing okay despite a ‘weak’ heal.

Which brings us to your comment about Inspiring Reinforcement being something you can’t swap out. Yes, the way revenant works, you pick out skills as a set of five rather than cherrypicking the ones you want. However, the energy mechanic means that if you have a skill that’s not useful for the specific situation, you can save the energy for the skills that are. I don’t see that picking out instances where it’s not useful negates those that are (recognising, again, that it was overnerfed in BWE3 and should be partially reverted to its former state).

With Soothing Stone… if the problem is that it has an obvious tell which makes it more interruptable, maybe the balancing factor is to reduce the tell? The block from Shelter is just too good to add willy-nilly to an already decent healing skill. (Really, if it was transplanted into any profession except ranger or warrior, it would probably see play, and other professions don’t back it up with a second heal skill.)

(Seriously, don’t underestimate the effect of the two heals. If we take the two simplest heals, Soothing Stone and Empowering Misery are a total of 10100 healing every 30 seconds with a 2.0 coefficient, without fulfilling the condition for bonus healing on Empowering Misery. How many other professions can match that on the 6 skill alone, without fulfilling conditions? Rangers can, but Troll Unguent is no emergency heal. Include supplemental sources and the competition gets stiffer, but that gets complicated, and revenants have supplemental healing sources too…)

JayAction.9056:

Burtnik.5218:

Please show me how i can maintain perma swiftness on revenant with devastation, retribution, invocation traitlines without stopping in place for a 5 seconds or hammer weapon. Super speed ooc works like swiftness and has only 50% uptime, i rather use the energy for PT. Thats stupid.

Dev, Ret, Inv traitlines?

1. I don’t even…
2. Use teleport in shiro.
3. You rather give up IN COMBAT functionality for OUT OF COMBAT functionality? Do you take fall traits too? lol

Some people doesnt run Glint nor herald, or at least they dont want to.
But obviously you missed point of these changes in the first place. Have a good day.

Ps. i take fall damage in keep when i troll around, the animation and sound is cool and i hope a future elite spec will make use of it

draxynnic.3719:

Okay, so the first arrows landing before the Rite was something you took into account. The video doesn’t show the combat log, so it wasn’t clear: I had to figure it out by pause-go methods.

Still, Rapid Fire is something that will normally put someone into “oh kitten!” mode unless they block it. And I’ve suggested putting a block on it.

Regarding your pros and cons:

For Facet of Chaos, you’ve listed a pro as being able to be used any time as long as it’s not on cooldown (Chaotic Release).

What you’ve missed, as a pretty significant con, is that you can only turn it off by using Facet of Chaos, legend-switching, or running your energy dry. All of which are going to limit when you can reasonably reactivate it next. RotGD requires a big chunk of energy to use, of course, so Facet of Chaos still has the advantage that it can be switched on at lower energy levels, but the fact remains that once Facet of Chaos is turned on it can be awkward to turn off.

On Rite, you’ve missed the pro that, if traited, it also provides damage resistance to conditions.

You’ve also inflated the list of cons by listing what are essentially the same cons twice. Not having the energy to use Rite is a consequence of having the high energy cost. Being able to be interrupted is a consequence of having a cast time (1.25s isn’t huge, it’s about average).

And my suggestions cover both of those cons. Covering the cast time with a block or invulnerability means the cast time itself is less of a disadvantage, and certainly stops it from being easily interrupted. That in itself would probably justify the casting cost, but if it doesn’t, I’m open to reducing the cost. That covers all of the cons you’ve listed without rebuilding the skill, and consequently needing to rebuild Vengeful Hammers in turn.

50 energy for a block/invul for 1.25sec is still too much. Look from the different perspective.

With Shiro i can riposte shadow – half of rapid fire evaded, i gain endurance and dodge.. At best i take one shot, no big deal.

With Ventari (sorry, bad joke) i can activate deflecting shield and dont care about his longbow at all. Paired with hammer i can keep deflect at 100% uptime unless i will be forced to swap, aka someone else join to help him.

Glint can convert all incoming damage into healing, or apply protection and reduce it damage a bit.

Meanwhile Jalis who is more about facetanking stuff, should be at least effective or better than Glint in that role. In current state not even close. As i said many times theres no reason to pick up Jalis over Glint. Glint offers way more than Jalis, shes superior at sustain, tank and support role and generally fill any build and situation due to her flexible kit.

Meanwhile what Jalis has? Laughable road that is not usable outside of conquest point, and still remains as junk even with your suggestion (1 stack for 4sec at the cost of 30 energy, really? Cus standing in road is definitely not an option, also 10cd.), unreliable hammers which can hurt you more than help depending on situation (like scrapper with perma retal), high energy cost taunt that can be.. reflected. And rite being slighty stronger than regular protection for a cost out of cosmos.

Like i said many times before, if rite is supposed to stay the way it is, it should provide immunity to direct damage like endure pain. But its aoe cus lore? Well too bad, but thats not my problem in this case if someone trying to balance around lore. +Looking at Glint, do we really need support on Jalis? I think not.

Youre right that i missed -50% to condi damage but then again.. it doesnt change much. Condi bomb will wreck Jalis regardless of this buff.

The pros with Glint and facet is also the fact that before i run out of energy my swap will be ready. So far i have not experienced energy issues on Glint, most of the time i actually swap with over 60 energy if i dont need protection.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding Enchanted Daggers:

So, it’s weak when used as an emergency heal? If you do land all the daggers, ~6500 base heal with a 1.45 coefficient is one of the strongest heals out there, especially when you consider that you’re playing the only profession that has two slot-6 heals available on separate cooldowns.

Two slots, both of which has 30 cd and are weak on their own. And being honest.. damage is not something you should look at when we talk about healing skill.. you know, a skill that is supposed to keep you alive. And while other classes cant have 2 heals at once, they have multiple ways to get extra healing from weapon skills/traits. For example full medi dh;

6k from healing skill (24cd)+2 condi removal and decent insta damage
4k from f2 on 26cd and 3 condi removal
Smite boon insta decent damage, 2 condi removal, 2k heal
Contemplation – full condi conversion to boons, 2k heal, 32cd
JI – insta teleport which also heals 2k on 36cd.

All medi also offer aoe fury.

See the amount of reliable healing (except f2)? Should i mention meta classes aka scrapper or druid? No? Moving on then.

Sure, it’s possible that if it was chosen on its own, it wouldn’t see much play. However, revenant utility skills aren’t chosen on their own, but as part of a set, and as mentioned before Shiro is possibly the most popular revenant legend. While I understand it’s frustrating when a weakness of your build kills you, that suggests that the package as a whole is doing okay despite a ‘weak’ heal.

Shiro is mostly picked for one skill – riposting shadow. The only real stunbreak (outside of Glint with 20cd) we have right now. Its main reason why you want Shiro. It even better bc you gain endurance and remove soft cc. Mobility is not something i consider in Shiro as its bugged as kitten and doesnt work most of the time.

Which brings us to your comment about Inspiring Reinforcement being something you can’t swap out. Yes, the way revenant works, you pick out skills as a set of five rather than cherrypicking the ones you want. However, the energy mechanic means that if you have a skill that’s not useful for the specific situation, you can save the energy for the skills that are. I don’t see that picking out instances where it’s not useful negates those that are (recognising, again, that it was overnerfed in BWE3 and should be partially reverted to its former state).

Already mentioned in previous post.

With Soothing Stone… if the problem is that it has an obvious tell which makes it more interruptable, maybe the balancing factor is to reduce the tell? The block from Shelter is just too good to add willy-nilly to an already decent healing skill. (Really, if it was transplanted into any profession except ranger or warrior, it would probably see play, and other professions don’t back it up with a second heal skill.)

I can imagine only mesmer picking it up honestly. And even then i have doubts.

(Seriously, don’t underestimate the effect of the two heals. If we take the two simplest heals, Soothing Stone and Empowering Misery are a total of 10100 healing every 30 seconds with a 2.0 coefficient, without fulfilling the condition for bonus healing on Empowering Misery. How many other professions can match that on the 6 skill alone, without fulfilling conditions? Rangers can, but Troll Unguent is no emergency heal. Include supplemental sources and the competition gets stiffer, but that gets complicated, and revenants have supplemental healing sources too…)

And thats why theres no reason to keep Shiro heal as it is. We can already pick up 2 reliable heal. Does it cause issues? No. Problem is Jalis that just sux utility wise.

Hp/s also drops down a bit due to 2 heals btw. As for other professions? Pretty much any except thief can match it.

Look at necro https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions
More effective empowering misery? Indeed. Can also be trained for 20cd. But what for? Its good as it is for 30cd.

Sort of second heal https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Locust
The most fun fact? Unlike precision strike or UA it actually gets stronger in teamfights or vs pet class. What a sad joke, right?

JayAction.9056:

Burtnik.5218:

Please show me how i can maintain perma swiftness on revenant with devastation, retribution, invocation traitlines without stopping in place for a 5 seconds or hammer weapon. Super speed ooc works like swiftness and has only 50% uptime, i rather use the energy for PT. Thats stupid.

Dev, Ret, Inv traitlines?

1. I don’t even…
2. Use teleport in shiro.
3. You rather give up IN COMBAT functionality for OUT OF COMBAT functionality? Do you take fall traits too? lol

1. That’s not proving your point.
2. Requires a target and high chance of putting you in combat.
3. We already have a trait that increases DPS in there; there’s not much reason to have another, even if it’s marginally better (only in PvE). I’d much rather have +25% movement speed so I’m not forced into Glint just for something so basic.
I’ve already argued this before:

Revenant, due to the way it’s designed, has to sacrifice a lot more for this basic feature than every other class.
Most classes sacrifice either:

a) Weapon + Trait
b) Utility
c) Utility + Trait
d) Utility + Weapon

Take Necro, for example. They can either use Dagger + Trait, Warhorn + Trait, Spectral Walk + Warhorn, or Signet of the Locust.
What can Revenant do for a permanent speed boost?
Sacrifice 5 utilities for Perma-Swiftness (as in, you have no choice, you HAVE to pick Glint for it).

How is that fair?
And no, Shiro doesn’t really count. Again, PT requires a target and can put you into combat easily (admittedly so can Necro WH, but you have other options and it doesn’t require a target) and IO is, at best, 50% up-time and is only better than Swiftness while in-combat.
So when roaming around or going through HoT without Glint, you’re as slow as a turtle. I remember running around as a Revenant in HoT, trying to unlock Herald, and I felt SO SLOW. My Necro friend was always much faster than me unless I had a target to use PT on (which sometimes led me into combat because lolnoswiftness or failed due to terrain).

You’ll probably argue next that Mesmers and Guardians didn’t/don’t have a trait like this either, but I’ll argue that they should. The slowness of Revenant is going to become more apparent if the next Elite spec doesn’t have permanent Swiftness in some way since you wont be able to pick Glint and then I’m sure people will complain more.

Regarding healing:

Sure, you can pile on other sources of healing, but revenant can play that game too. Even nerfed, shield gives you 1500+ on a 15s cooldown and ~2500 on a 25s cooldown, for another 6000/30 seconds. Even nerfed, shield is like having a third healing skill. And that’s just the start.

You claim that only mesmer would consider using Soothing Stone if they had it available. Well, here’s my analysis:

Guardian: Compared to untraited signet, it’s still a little less efficient as a heal, but it will remove three conditions every thirty seconds if it’s used on recharge, which the signet will not. Nor does the signet provide baseline retaliation.

Warrior: Compared to Mending, it comes out worse off in efficiency because Mending has a 20s recharge. On the other hand, Retaliation…

Engineer: If you’re willing to deal with the fiddliness, Healing Turret wins. However, when you compare it to the competition, Elixir H, say: I think it’s a little less efficient as a heal to even untraited Elixir H because of Elixir H’s shorter cooldown. On the other hand, it removes three conditions and guarantees to proc Retaliation. I could see it being attractive to non-Alchemy Engineers as an additional condition removal (again, assuming that, for whatever reason, they don’t want to use Healing Turret), assuming that it also comes with a decent toolbelt skill (and Toss Elixir H isn’t that high a bar to beat).

Ranger: Ranger had the best slot-6 healing in the game pre-druid, largely because it didn’t have much in the way of off-slot healing (or that much in the way of damage mitigation in general, to be honest) so it basically relied on strong slot-6 heals to stay alive. Post-druid, I think we all agree that nobody else is even in the same league when it comes to healing, not even dedicated healing specs that aren’t much use for anything else coughcoughVentaricough. Moving on…

Thief: If we assume that the thief doesn’t feel they need stealth from their healing, we’re looking at Withdraw and Channeled Vigor as the competition. Both are more efficient as direct heals – however, thief doesn’t have a lot of condition removal. Withdraw will remove movement-reducing conditions, but I could see Soothing Stone being attractive for a thief that was worried about conditions.

Elementalist: If we look at Glyph of Elemental Harmony, I think they come out roughly even when it comes to efficiency. Untraited Glyph will produce a boon according to the attunement being run, Soothing Stone provides Retribution and offers condition removal without needing to be attuned into water and having a water grandmaster trait. Elementalists are generally well placed for condition removal, but I could see Soothing Stone being competitive for an elementalist if they didn’t want to invest in the condition removal traits.

Mesmer: Mesmer you’ve come closest to conceding, but for the record: From a mesmer’s perspective, Soothing Stone is essentially a selfish Well of Eternity that doesn’t require staying in one area for three seconds (something that a non-bunker mesmer won’t want to do). It’s a little less efficient healing-wise than the full Well of Eternity, but provides Retribution. It also loses in healing efficiency to Ether Feast and Mirror, but mesmers typically have trouble with conditions unless they run Inspiration, so the condition removal may well make it attractive.

Necromancer: It’s funny you raised Consume Conditions, since that was one I directly compared against. Consume Conditions is a more efficient heal if you have conditions to consume, but Soothing Stone has a bigger base heal, and still has condition removal if you need it. Consume Conditions inflicts self-vulnerability, which could be an advantage if you have means to transfer it (but if you’re going to transfer conditions, you’ll probably want to have more than just five stacks of vulnerability to transfer), but generally is a disadvantage, especially when compared to Retaliation. I’d consider Soothing Stone to be competitive against CC.

(Incidentally, in response to your observation that Signet of the Locust gets better in teamfights: It also sucks 1v1. That sword cuts both ways.)

Now, I’m not saying that Soothing Stone would necessarily be meta for any of these professions if it was made available, but the fact that I can make decent arguments why it’d be at least considered speaks volumes when revenant heals need to be considered in the context of having two of them available, with the potential for more healing and sustain from off-slot sources. Intuitively, you’d expect revenant heals to be balanced by requiring that you use both of them to achieve a similar result to another profession’s heal.

(Another thing of note in looking over the heals of other professions is that, as a general rule, the less suitable a healing skill is as an emergency heal, the more efficient it is in terms of healing per minute. Such heals need to be used in the context of triggering them before you get to an emergency situation in the first place, so you have time for the greater heal/minute efficiency to come into play over the smaller immediate heal. Enchanted Daggers works on the same principle. Make it more suited as an emergency heal, and the price you’re likely to pay is that the overall healing potential will drop.)

Regarding the other Jalis stuff:

I think you’re looking at it from the perspective of a berserker Shiro rev who doesn’t contest point because staying in a small area will get you killed – and you’re trying to make Jalis fit that playstyle because that’s the playstyle you play.

If you do contest point, though, a stability field that covers most of the point is actually quite nice to have. Place it right, and you’ll probably cross it a couple of times as the circling around point progresses without having to stay on it. Make the stability linger a few seconds to span the periods when you’re off it, and it would be something very worth throwing into a point fight.

Let alone other situations where you want to get stability in a particular area – stomping/ressing, channeling a hero in Stronghold (damage isn’t enough to break the channel there), helping to deal with champions and legendaries who stun you and then kill you while you’re stunned (very common in HoT, but not exclusively there).

Your desire to replace Inspiring Reinforcement and RotGD into selfish skills emphases that you’re not looking to help the team, but to support yourself. That’s really not what Jalis is. Both before and after turning to stone, he was first and foremost a leader – and, frankly, I consider that when you’re channeling Jalis what you’re really doing is channeling the Great Dwarf and Jalis is just a face. Like it or not, Jalis is intended to contribute to support.

50 energy for just a block/invulnerability would be too much. I’m talking about 50 energy for a 1-2s block and then 50% reduction to all damage for you and your team around you. In PvP, players generally aren’t stupid enough to keep beating on an obvious tank when there’s someone more vulnerable nearby.

Consider your examples. Shiro going Riposting Shadows… doesn’t help if the fire is aimed at a target apart from yourself. Neither does popping the Glint heal. Running Facet of Chaos provides protection, but that doesn’t help against conditions and it helps less against direct damage. Your joke Ventari/hammer combination would do the job, placed correctly, but only against projectiles. You’re relying on using Rapid Fire as your example, but not every source of damage is a projectile-based spike. Traited RotGD provides 50% damage reduction to all damage.

My suggestion to add a block or invulnerability makes it more useful when you’re on your own, yes, but it still also enhances its use as a supporting skill, by making it that much less likely to be interrupted at a critical moment.

And your suggestion about immunity to direct damage? Immunity to direct damage to multiple team members for five seconds would clearly be OP. Plus, we know that the stone dwarves are not invulnerable, just considerably tougher than they were.

At this point, I can tell you’re getting ready to make the “Glint is better support!” argument. However, in response, I can say the following:

1) Glint is well-known for doing diddly-squat against conditions. You can blow your heal to turn a damaging condition into healing for a bit. That’s about it. Jalis doesn’t offer Resistance, but Jalis can offer some limited condition clear and can reduce the damage from damaging conditions… and that condition mitigation can’t be removed in one boonstrip.
2) Glint offers no stability to yourself or your party. I know you don’t like offering stability from a field, but support fields are part of the game, and you are not the only person who plays revenant. Just because you like it does not mean that nobody does.
3) Even for a revenant, it can be useful to double up. Glint is supporty, Jalis is supporty. Being able to legendswap and still be able to keep performing the same role is useful. Redundancy is sometimes a good thing.
4) Herald won’t be the only elite specialisation forever (unless ArenaNet does another backflip…) – at some stage, in the future, there’ll be another elite legend that people might want to take while still having a supporty legend available.

Malchior.5732:

You’ll probably argue next that Mesmers and Guardians didn’t/don’t have a trait like this either, but I’ll argue that they should. The slowness of Revenant is going to become more apparent if the next Elite spec doesn’t have permanent Swiftness in some way since you wont be able to pick Glint and then I’m sure people will complain more.

It’s still a valid observation. Revenant is still better off than mesmer: IO may not be permanently maintainable, but it doesn’t risk triggering combat like mesmer focus does, and Assassin’s Stance is probably a better choice to be stuck with if combat starts unexpectedly than being a mesmer with a focus and a build that’s not suited for focus. When it comes to elite specialisations, Glint giving perma-switftness is better for out-of-combat mobility than Chronomancer’s flat 25%, especially considering that Glint can also give it to allies.

My bigger beef, though, is that putting it on Devastation feels like it’s doubling up on the same legend. While it’s not always run that way, each of the specialisations except Invocation is largely designed to work with the associated legend, so with Devastation the assumption is that it will be used with Legendary Assassin Stance more often than not. Impossible Odds might not be the out-of-combat mobility skill you want, but it is an option, and putting a 25% move trait in Devastation means that more often than not you’ll end up with Shiro revenants having multiple options for getting around quickly (25% move trait, Impossible Odds, Phase Traversal if you want to do it that way) while other builds get diddly-squat.

I’d much rather see it on one of the other core specialisations, so it isn’t thematically or mechanically tied to Shiro, which already has Impossible Odds. Maybe it could be in Invocation. Maybe it could be in Salvation. Maybe Legendary Centaur Stance could get a 25% move speed increase rolled in because, hey, it’s Legendary Centaur Stance after all. I just don’t think we should have two movement speed boosts both rolled up in Shiro.

draxynnic.3719:

Heals

Retal is not all that good, not sure why you trying to turn it into some godlike boon. Theres only one class and to be specific a kit that can get you nuked from retal – flamethrower 1 spam.

In the end it all classes have better skills. I cant imagine thief taking soothing stone over hide in shadows if they are worried about conditions really. But fun fact in case if you didnt know, thief is the only class able to kitten on condi reaper in 1v1. Well so much for poor condi removal..

Shiro heal.. even if the value was reduced to 5,5k it would still be superior to the junk daggers we have now. Its one of the worst healing abilities in game, on par with blood reckoning, water spirit. You know its really bad when you can compare it to these 2.

And in general theme as you keep bringing it up.. being honest i dont see it really. Starting from the color – Shiro has green theme.. Aka jade theme. Where is the real Shiro theme? His clothes was red-orange, his jade wind was purple. So what green doing here?

Reading Shiro stuff.. daggers looks to fit, except from what i understand shirokens was actually.. you know… npcs. Which means our healing skill should summon npcs to leech heal off opponents like blood fiend instead of summoning some cucumbers.

0 connection to his original healing ability which i already mentioned earlier in this thread
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Meditation_of_the_Reaper

In the end i dont see how ED actually fits Shiro theme. What a slap in the face to non-existent lore (GW2 lore is terrible at least, HoT is a clean example here).

Wrong theme color, wrong healing ability. Thats how i see it.

draxynnic.3719:

Regarding the other Jalis stuff

And stability on demand that doesnt limit you to small area is even better. And yes i do look from berserker perspective cus in the end as core berserker rev youre left handicapped. Useless Ventari, useless condi Mallyx and that leaves you with only one option which is Jalis. Which happens to be also useless trash due to situation terrible abilities and in general not working as advertised.. you know.. being “tanky”. May i remind you description of Jalis from interviews?

*"When a revenant calls on the power of Jalis, they’ll be transforming into what Cronacher calls a “dwarf brawler kind of playstyle.” They’ll be a tank in the massively multiplayer sense of being able to take a lot of damage, but they’ll also be incredibly aggressive." *

Taking 2 more hits with rite than with protection on yourself is hardly “being able to take a lot of damage” We could ofc always release a trait which makes Jalis immune to crits ofc.

You also keep missing the point that i actually can get 5second stab off Jalis road due to enh bulwark. But why i should even bother to equip Jalis at this point when im training into herald?

Reason why IR and Rite have to become a selfish reason are balance purposes. You dont want to get a legend which is close to useless for rev in name of junk support, and assuming we apply my changes but make them aoe you end up with some op kitten right there. Perma pulsing stab for the whole team or -75% reduction. Keeping Jalis as it is now will put him forever into trash unused legend. But i guess its better to keep it as trash for anything else than spvp bunker conquest point (like you would even use Jalis to bunker over Ventari/Glint) rather than make it usable in all game modes, got it.

Also in pvp Jalis rev would remain number 1 to target, even with added short block/invul added to rite. Why? You swap to Jalis, cast rite.. cool and all.. 50% reduction which i already proved to be trash. Now you have no energy to defend yourself and gratz.. youre easier to group focus than a reaper with shroud which also gains 50% reduction AND pulsing stability. Job well done, see you at spawn to repeat the circle.

In s1 i have not seen a single succesful Jalis rev and i also counted about 4 of them max. All of them despite casting rite melded under group focus, i was personally calling the target on them. And you know.. even a thief can survive group focus better than Jalis rev due to evades and stealth.

And now a more detailed list;

And your suggestion about immunity to direct damage? Immunity to direct damage to multiple team members for five seconds would clearly be OP. Plus, we know that the stone dwarves are not invulnerable, just considerably tougher than they were.

Thats why rite cant be aoe. We either keep it as useless aoe junk or as strong self skill.
Also in case if you didnt know, originally rite worked like endure pain reducing all direct damage to 0. Watch the stream from january.

At this point, I can tell you’re getting ready to make the “Glint is better support!” argument. However, in response, I can say the following:

1) Glint is well-known for doing diddly-squat against conditions. You can blow your heal to turn a damaging condition into healing for a bit. That’s about it. Jalis doesn’t offer Resistance, but Jalis can offer some limited condition clear and can reduce the damage from damaging conditions… and that condition mitigation can’t be removed in one boonstrip.
2) Glint offers no stability to yourself or your party. I know you don’t like offering stability from a field, but support fields are part of the game, and you are not the only person who plays revenant. Just because you like it does not mean that nobody does.
3) Even for a revenant, it can be useful to double up. Glint is supporty, Jalis is supporty. Being able to legendswap and still be able to keep performing the same role is useful. Redundancy is sometimes a good thing.
4) Herald won’t be the only elite specialisation forever (unless ArenaNet does another backflip…) – at some stage, in the future, there’ll be another elite legend that people might want to take while still having a supporty legend available.

1. Jalis explodes to conditions too, rite wont save you at all. The difference is between Jalis which explodes a bit slower or Glint that can get your hp back to full from condi bomb. In the end both sux vs conditions so it dosnt matter in the end. Also theres Ventari which cures conditions and is 100% support oriented.

2. We have better choices in game if party needs a support in form of stability while also remaining mobile. No reason to take Jalis.

3. I wouldnt really consider Jalis to be all that supporty. Glint can provide offensive as well defensive support. Jalis can offer some joke stab and short 50% reduction..thats about it really

4. Ventari. Also the point of specializations is to swap between them. You dont need support? You swap from druid to core ranger. You need more damage on warrior? You swap to berserker. The list goes on. Thats how its supposed to work.

In the end why Glint, Mallyx and Shiro have seen use unlike Ventari, Jalis? Bc their utility skills are flexible.

I can take Shiro for dps, mobility or cc.

I can take Mallyx for resistance, boonstrip (the only skill being a bit off in Mallyx is UA) or dps boost. But generally hes usable

I can take Glint for offense as well defense while also supporting allies. ALl while being mobile

I cannot take Jalis as his support is static which renders him absolutely useless and doesnt really bring a lot to the table

I cannot take Ventari for the same reason. Before the tablet get to someone they will be long time ago from from this place. If you dont move = youre dead. That ofc not counting undertuned healing from this legend.

So how come 3 legends see play while the other 2 are trash? They are mobile and doesnt force anyone to stop in a small square for an effect. Hopefully that will give you an idea why Jalis is hopeless in current state and keeping his kit as it is now will keep him in hopeless state for good unless.. they nerf everything else into ground to the point where Jalis will start looking good (see shield and sword oh)

draxynnic.3719:

Move speed trait in salvation..

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revenant

Devastation — focuses on improving damage, mobility, and the Legendary Assassin Stance.
Salvation — focuses on improving healing, support, and the Legendary Centaur Stance.

Maybe it just me, but devastation seems to be fitting for 25% move speed trait like no other line. Even more so given the fact we have a space for it in adept cause atm we have 2 different sword traits which does the same thing in a different way. Funny enough i cant find any trait to improve my mobility.

Realistically all id need from enchanting daggers to be usable would be to make it unblockable. Then it wouldn’t use a stack of unblockable attacks and wouldnt be dangerous to use on engis/eles. It also wouldn’t allow for an unblockable burst, since they won’t proc unless the initial attack was unblockable…

UA wouldn’t need a DPS buff if its single target only since I can hit for 10k already.

Added google link in first post with modified changes. Changes were mostly made to Jalis to keep him as “support” and few traits

Draxy should take a look. No, road has to go, sry

Before i i post invocation and herald i want to know if the stuff i already posted looks acceptable.

I also had idea to make field of the mist a upkeep skill (it would be first upkeep on wep skill)

Burtnik.5218:

draxynnic.3719:

Heals

Retal is not all that good, not sure why you trying to turn it into some godlike boon.

I’m not, because it isn’t. What it is, though, is an added bonus on top of a good heal and removal of three conditions. That’s what makes it competitive enough that it would be worth considering for all those professions. Retal is gravy.

The point is that it’s at least close to being competitive against other profession’s heals, when the revenant has a second heal available. Coupled with the fact that the revenant can also have a decent amount of off-slot-6 healing… then yes, I think the heals are pretty solid. (With the exception of self-healing on Ventari. Ventari really does need a solid rework.)

On the topic of themes: Shiro’s theme colour is green because of the Jade Wind, and there has been a long precedent for theme colours not always being the same as outfit colours (mesmer theme colour has always been purple, for instance, but the default colour for mesmer outfits has always been green).

However, that’s beside the point. When I talked about theme, it had nothing to do with aesthetics and everything to do with behaviour. The theme behind Shiro’s skills is built around being aggressive, and Enchanted Daggers being a skill that requires being aggressive to get the full benefit is part of that.

May i remind you description of Jalis from interviews?

I’m pretty sure ‘supporting allies’ was also mentioned in those interviews.

You also keep missing the point that i actually can get 5second stab off Jalis road due to enh bulwark. But why i should even bother to equip Jalis at this point when im training into herald?

This edges close to circular reasoning. I’m not missing the point – unlike you, I’m not in the headspace of only thinking of the benefit to the rev, but also of other players. Who don’t get the benefit of of Enhanced Bulwark unless they happen to be heralds with Enhanced Bulwark. Additionally, Jalis and Retribution should obviously be able to stand on its own without Herald, particularly since a) we both agree that Enhanced Bulwark isn’t really fitting for Glint, and b) even if the ‘you need to have an elite specialisation to be worthwhile’ paradigm continues, there will be more in the future.

Reason why IR and Rite have to become a selfish reason are balance purposes.

Except that the reasons you claim it’s worthless are mired in your own playstyle. For people with different playstyles, it’s pretty close to working, and only needs a few tweaks in order to be suitable.

You made a big deal earlier about Rite “only granting a couple of hits worth more than Protection”. Protection is a big deal. Plus, you’re using as your yardstick one of the hardest skills to defend effectively against in the game. Is Aegis or a single-attack block worthless because it only blocks one arrow from RF? Is a long-term block useless because when the ranger RFs again, your block is still on recharge?

The defensive aspect of Guild Wars 2 is built around holding on for just a few hits more. Holding on for just a few hits more gives time for the skill that will allow you to hold on for just a little bit more to come off recharge, becoming a self-perpetuating cycle. Holding on for just a few hits more may allow you to finish off your opponent rather than being finished off yourself. Holding on for just a few hits more may give help time to arrive (especially in sPvP), or at least hold a point for a little bit longer.

Consider that video that you claimed showed how bad the Shiro heal was. If you’d been able to buy yourself just three seconds more, you’d have gotten Soothing Stone off, and the NPC caravan guards would have come in.

Maybe it just me, but devastation seems to be fitting for 25% move speed trait like no other line. Even more so given the fact we have a space for it in adept cause atm we have 2 different sword traits which does the same thing in a different way. Funny enough i cant find any trait to improve my mobility.

Except that, however much you might not like IO, that’s still doubling up on Shiro. I know everyone loves Shiro, but I don’t think it’s a good thing to go from having to go Glint or Shiro in order to get a speed boost, to having to Glint, Shiro, or take a Shiro-themed traitline that is designed to work with Shiro in order to get a speed boost.

Burtnik.5218:

Added google link in first post with modified changes. Changes were mostly made to Jalis to keep him as “support” and few traits

Draxy should take a look. No, road has to go, sry

Before i i post invocation and herald i want to know if the stuff i already posted looks acceptable.

I also had idea to make field of the mist a upkeep skill (it would be first upkeep on wep skill)

Hrrrmn…

Regarding the Jalis skills specifically, I don’t think 100% damage reduction for Soothing Stone for 3 seconds is likely to fly balance-wise. 50% a la Rite is probably more likely to be considered by the balance team. I suspect that we won’t get zero cooldown on the modified Inspiring Reinforcement either, since that has the potential to maintain stability for a long time if you keep using it (if you use no other energy you recover 25 energy over the 5 seconds duration, so starting from full energy you could theoretically keep it going for well over a minute, more if you have increased boon duration in play).

Apart from the ‘this might be a little much balance-wise’ responses above, though, I’d take those changes.

For the rest, I’ll have to come back after guild missions to give a proper response, but I wanted to get that qualified approval in ASAP given my last post.

draxynnic.3719:

On the topic of themes: Shiro’s theme colour is green because of the Jade Wind

Im blind or something then but i see..purple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcFEe2odAuo.

However, that’s beside the point. When I talked about theme, it had nothing to do with aesthetics and everything to do with behaviour. The theme behind Shiro’s skills is built around being aggressive, and Enchanted Daggers being a skill that requires being aggressive to get the full benefit is part of that.

Changing it to something like litany of wrath would fit it much better then, dont you think? You still have to be aggressive but at least.. you gain more than 1,6k. Also theres too many situations where Shiro heal is useless. Just example from wvw 20min ago – i was under a wall and defenders rains arrow on us with ac’s. Sure i can heal for 5k from Mallyx/Jalis on 30cd.. but what i am supposed to do with Shiro heal? You dont take these things into account, at all. You come in and defend it everytime as it was a good healing ability, when its trash. Feel free to make a thread on thief/mes/idk forum and ask if anyone would pick it up. Everyone knows its horrible.

I’m pretty sure ‘supporting allies’ was also mentioned in those interviews.

Not really;

Legendary Dwarf Stance
“Invoke the power of the legendary dwarf king, Jalis Ironhammer.”
I don’t know about you folks, but when I think of a dwarf, I think of a tanky, brawling play style. And that is exactly what you’ll get if you choose this legend. When you use the Legendary Dwarf Stance, it’s all about sustaining yourself while maintaining a frightening presence on the battlefield that your foes will not soon forget. Let’s check out another example of an upkeep skill with exciting new tech.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/revenant-the-master-of-the-mists/

What you gonna say about that one?

This edges close to circular reasoning. I’m not missing the point – unlike you, I’m not in the headspace of only thinking of the benefit to the rev, but also of other players. Who don’t get the benefit of of Enhanced Bulwark unless they happen to be heralds with Enhanced Bulwark. Additionally, Jalis and Retribution should obviously be able to stand on its own without Herald, particularly since a) we both agree that Enhanced Bulwark isn’t really fitting for Glint, and b) even if the ‘you need to have an elite specialisation to be worthwhile’ paradigm continues, there will be more in the future.

You made a big deal earlier about Rite “only granting a couple of hits worth more than Protection”. Protection is a big deal. Plus, you’re using as your yardstick one of the hardest skills to defend effectively against in the game. Is Aegis or a single-attack block worthless because it only blocks one arrow from RF? Is a long-term block useless because when the ranger RFs again, your block is still on recharge?

Protection was spreaded like candies. Aegis is useless vs multihit, sure, but strong vs single skills. Rapid fire is not that strong either. I think i could upload a vid where i melt to bristle f2 with rite on. For 50 energy cost skill i want more than 5sec 17% stronger protection. Imagine jade winds being reduced to one second daze while keeping it 50 energy cost. Thats how i feel about Rite.

The defensive aspect of Guild Wars 2 is built around holding on for just a few hits more. Holding on for just a few hits more gives time for the skill that will allow you to hold on for just a little bit more to come off recharge, becoming a self-perpetuating cycle. Holding on for just a few hits more may allow you to finish off your opponent rather than being finished off yourself. Holding on for just a few hits more may give help time to arrive (especially in sPvP), or at least hold a point for a little bit longer.

Pre patch bunker mes could hold for ages. If you build yourself full def yolo with traits, gear and skills you should last more than few hits. If thats not the case, you end up with a unviable build – poor defense, poor offense. So whats is the purpose of such build? Troll teammates?

Except that, however much you might not like IO, that’s still doubling up on Shiro. I know everyone loves Shiro, but I don’t think it’s a good thing to go from having to go Glint or Shiro in order to get a speed boost, to having to Glint, Shiro, or take a Shiro-themed traitline that is designed to work with Shiro in order to get a speed boost.

Devastation is dps/sustain line. You dont have to pair up Shiro with devastation, at all. You pick up Shiro for mobility as no other legend provides it. That doesnt mean you cant come up with some build like dev/cor/retri and Mallyx/Jalis. Suddenly 25% started to look more interesing right? That trait serves to enhance our mobility, nothing else. Youre not forced to pick it up.

draxynnic.3719:

Hrrrmn…

Regarding the Jalis skills specifically, I don’t think 100% damage reduction for Soothing Stone for 3 seconds is likely to fly balance-wise. 50% a la Rite is probably more likely to be considered by the balance team. I suspect that we won’t get zero cooldown on the modified Inspiring Reinforcement either, since that has the potential to maintain stability for a long time if you keep using it (if you use no other energy you recover 25 energy over the 5 seconds duration, so starting from full energy you could theoretically keep it going for well over a minute, more if you have increased boon duration in play).

Apart from the ‘this might be a little much balance-wise’ responses above, though, I’d take those changes.

For the rest, I’ll have to come back after guild missions to give a proper response, but I wanted to get that qualified approval in ASAP given my last post.

Thats the problem. It would be totally fine if made selfish but it can be game breaking when you make it aoe. I am still up for making Jalis a selfish legend. Also looking for interviews if any states Jalis to be support oriented.

Looked at few intervies.. i am probably blind again but none stated about Jalis being a support. What i seen was “brawler” or “tank”. So given that quote above.. it seems youre wrong and the little support he has atm might as well not exists.

Jalis is the toughner one imho. I feel fine with rest of the changes i made but Jalis..tough subject about a dwarf that was supposed to be..tough. The irony. Keeping his kit the way it is now will render him useless, buffing while keeping his support will result in being op. So what to do?

draxynnic.3719:

For the rest, I’ll have to come back after guild missions to give a proper response, but I wanted to get that qualified approval in ASAP given my last post.

So, regarding those other changes:

Vicious Lacerations → Assassin’s Speed: If Ferocious Strikes is left unchanged, I can live with this…

…However, I still prefer to have such a trait not linked to a legend that already has mobility attached to it. Yes, the Devastation line can be run without Legendary Assassin Stance and vice versa. Nevertheless, the design assumption is that they will be run together most of the time.

Enchanted Daggers: I don’t think you’re going to get a 5500 heal without the daggers being nerfed significantly in damage as well as healing (which I know you’d accept, but others like the damage). That’s a huge buff to the skill (and since revenants choose their skills as all five skills of a stance rather than individually, EDs is balanced in the context of the rest of the Shiro skills, not on its own.)

The comparison you make with Litany of Wrath is an interesting one, since Litany only has the same initial heal as Enchanted Daggers (~1600 base) without the meditation trait. Now, Enchanted Daggers doesn’t have the option of throwing traits at it to boost the initial heal, and the daggers being so easy to prevent from landing is a problem. I don’t think 5500 initial is something we can aim for, though. Somewhere between three and four thousand, with the balance in the daggers, might fly.

(As an aside, a Meditation of the Reaper-themed heal could also be workable. Essentially it’d behave like an inverse Glint heal – you have to do it in combat, but you get more healing from not being attacked. I don’t think it’s likely, though.)

Precision Strike: While I know you don’t like dealing with projectiles, I actually like the feel of the skill at the moment… bugs aside, of course. Personally, I think the sword works better when you have a ranged skill there that you can use as an option on a more skirmishing playstyle, or to hit someone who’s just outside of melee range (or whom you don’t want to close into melee with just yet). This goes double for players running dual melee weapons, or if revenant does get reverted to a no-weaponswap profession like you’ve been pushing for.

Unrelenting Assault: 450 radius seems high to me. 300 seems to be the limit for a melee-esque attack (Lightning Whip, Swod Wave). 150 may be closer to the mark. It will mean damage redistribution will happen more often, but you can still punish clumping (including reviving).

Grasping Shadows: I prefer the pull, with the possibility of a condition-based CC like immobilise, cripple or chill to stop them from just running back too easily. I think it’s more interesting and promotes more tactical thinking than a simple stun.

Demonic Defiance: Interesting line of thought there. I like it! With Embrace the Darkness having inbuilt resistance, that reduces the reliance on getting Resistance from here. If technically feasible, this might actually be a good place to put in an immunity to condition removal while Embracing the Darkness: this would give players the option to choose whether they’re using Mallyx primarily to distribute conditions (take this trait) or more as a method of mitigating conditions while they have them (don’t take this trait).

Pain Absorption: What about making it deliver 3-5 stacks of bleeding instead, in order to give access to more conditions (since Mallyx revs can get Burning through Diabolic Inferno)?

No particular comments regarding the rest of the Google document as it stood two and a half hours before the time of this post: everything there I think I could say that, at the very least, I wouldn’t be unhappy if it goes through. There’s some there that I worry might be a little overpowered, but not so much that I wouldn’t be unwilling to see it be tried out on the assumption it’ll be pared back if necessary.

draxynnic.3719:

So, regarding those other changes:

Enchanted Daggers: I don’t think you’re going to get a 5500 heal without the daggers being nerfed significantly in damage as well as healing (which I know you’d accept, but others like the damage). That’s a huge buff to the skill (and since revenants choose their skills as all five skills of a stance rather than individually, EDs is balanced in the context of the rest of the Shiro skills, not on its own.)

The comparison you make with Litany of Wrath is an interesting one, since Litany only has the same initial heal as Enchanted Daggers (~1600 base) without the meditation trait. Now, Enchanted Daggers doesn’t have the option of throwing traits at it to boost the initial heal, and the daggers being so easy to prevent from landing is a problem. I don’t think 5500 initial is something we can aim for, though. Somewhere between three and four thousand, with the balance in the daggers, might fly.

(As an aside, a Meditation of the Reaper-themed heal could also be workable. Essentially it’d behave like an inverse Glint heal – you have to do it in combat, but you get more healing from not being attacked. I don’t think it’s likely, though.)

Litany of wrath was trash at 3/4sec cast time and before the smite condi attached to heal skill. Now it has ability to provide 6k hp on the cast and even more if smite strike someone (which will happen 90% of the time unless random dodge). Either way point is it has damage conversion to healing. It can provide rev sustain to stay in combat rather than be forced to kite due to joke interval ED. I wouldnt mind changing it to 4k base with 30% conversion. It also will help hammer A LOT. Atm its too hard to trigger daggers with hammers.

Not sure how meditation of the reaper could be translated to gw2. Theres however animation that seems to be fitting – ele water overload.

Precision Strike: While I know you don’t like dealing with projectiles, I actually like the feel of the skill at the moment… bugs aside, of course. Personally, I think the sword works better when you have a ranged skill there that you can use as an option on a more skirmishing playstyle, or to hit someone who’s just outside of melee range (or whom you don’t want to close into melee with just yet). This goes double for players running dual melee weapons, or if revenant does get reverted to a no-weaponswap profession like you’ve been pushing for.

I used it before pre patch. Projectile has it + and -. I just dont think they can fix the issue with precision strike targeting random stuff. It helps to hit stuff at range but it also can be deflected/reflected. Kinda poor for a main burst skill. See this change i posted in spvp;

“Precision strike. Revert the change to 1 projectile per target (and 2sec chill) and buff the damage by 135% of that invidual projectile. It will remain strong in 1v1 with 60% nerf to chill uptime and ~23% nerf to damage but it wont be useless in teamfights anymore. It need projectile speed buff badly tho.”

Unrelenting Assault: 450 radius seems high to me. 300 seems to be the limit for a melee-esque attack (Lightning Whip, Swod Wave). 150 may be closer to the mark. It will mean damage redistribution will happen more often, but you can still punish clumping (including reviving).

Can work assuming we reduce the radius of revenant ua to 300 radius. Smokescale has 300 radius for his attacks after all with 750 range for cast time.

Grasping Shadows: I prefer the pull, with the possibility of a condition-based CC like immobilise, cripple or chill to stop them from just running back too easily. I think it’s more interesting and promotes more tactical thinking than a simple stun.

Sword offers chill already, shacking wave offers immobilize. If we are supposed to keep it as pull i rather make it ranged and increase range to 900. Ohh and cause it would let me to pull enemies form wall in wvw i wouldnt complain – forced eng is cool and all but a bit inpractical.

Demonic Defiance: Interesting line of thought there. I like it! With Embrace the Darkness having inbuilt resistance, that reduces the reliance on getting Resistance from here. If technically feasible, this might actually be a good place to put in an immunity to condition removal while Embracing the Darkness: this would give players the option to choose whether they’re using Mallyx primarily to distribute conditions (take this trait) or more as a method of mitigating conditions while they have them (don’t take this trait).

It should be technically possible – you cant heal necro in DS for example.

Pain Absorption: What about making it deliver 3-5 stacks of bleeding instead, in order to give access to more conditions (since Mallyx revs can get Burning through Diabolic Inferno)?

I wouldnt mind that one except for the fact that we dont have bleeding by default. Our main conditions are torment, burn, poison on mace and confusion from Mallyx. I think burn fits better.

No particular comments regarding the rest of the Google document as it stood two and a half hours before the time of this post: everything there I think I could say that, at the very least, I wouldn’t be unhappy if it goes through. There’s some there that I worry might be a little overpowered, but not so much that I wouldn’t be unwilling to see it be tried out on the assumption it’ll be pared back if necessary.

Most important thing is the concept. Numbers are something that can always be changed. It obvious that something may and probably will result as op change. The goal is to bring up trash stuff to acceptable level. The thing i worry about Jalis is IR tho. Nothing states about Jalis being support so that one could be changed back to my original suggestion while Rite can remain as it is now with versed in stone trait greatly increasing rev sustain vs power damage. Soothing Stone is something that could use a block feature tho, but cause its not “original” i changed it to semi invul, it has 30cd after all.

Updated a bit;

1. Precision Strike – Precision strike. Revert the change to 1 projectile per target (and 2sec chill). Buff the damage by 135% of invidual projectile. It will remain strong in 1v1 with 60% nerf to chill uptime and ~23% nerf to damage but it wont be useless in teamfights anymore. It needs projectile speed buff badly as well.

2. Unrelenting Assault – Reduce radius between bounces to 300. All enemies within 300 radius of revenant will also take damage when a hit from this ability connect.

3. Soothing Stone – Provides 1,5sec block. Retal removed.

Imho i believe that block still makes more sense. Sometimes trying to be unique doesnt make a lot of sense.

4. Inspiring Reinforcement – Changed fuctionality. It no longer creates a road and instead pulse stability (1,5sec) to rev and allies 5×. 240 radius. Stunbreak, 30 energy cost, removed cd. Recasting this skill refresh duration rather than stacking.

Still remains as supportive, but weaker to allies.

Invocation – Traitline focused on legend swapping, upkeep skills, fury. A mix of damage, sustain, support.

Adept;
1. Cruel Repercussion – Gain 10% damage for 4 second when you swap legend
2. Hardening Persistence – Gain 40 toughness for each point of upkeep
3. Fierce Infusion – Gain fury for 5 seconds when you critically hit a foe. 10cd

Master

1. Equilibrium – Removed healing. Now it always deal damage upon legend swap
2. Invigorating Flow – Heal yourself and allies near you when you activate upkeep skill.
389 (0.4). 10cd, 240 radius
3. Cleansing Channel – Invoking a legend removes condition. (moved from adept)

GM

1. Charged Mists – Changed to provide 1 stack of might (7sec) on critical hits.
2. Shrouding Mists – Endurance regeneration is increased by 50% when you have active upkeep ability

Love the proposed changes a lot it´s a nice work. There are also nerf where it is necessary! I m not conviced by the invocation line, maybe you have to find more changes (like you taunt all foes when you spa, 30 sec icd, or you win a buff when you equip a legend, 250 healing ventari, 250 crit shiro etc)

Had finally some time to review your suggestions and

Dismantle Fortifications
Consider reducing to 2 stacks.

Enchanted daggers
Reduce base healing to 4.5k and move that to the siphon.

Steadfast Rejuvenation
Remove the Vit. Increase the percentage. A Herald/Salvation/Retribution with this would have way too much sustain on clerics.

Selfless Amplification
2% is more than enough with the Invoking harmony changes. This trait by itself would give around 50% outgoing healing in SPvP….

Natural Abundance
Needs a secondary effect (not cleansing ;p)

Energy expulsion
Might need a energy cost reduction (30) or make it heal in AoE 1.5x the amount it would normally do per shard

And of course a small reduction on cleansing is probably still needed…

Also like I suggested in my topic I would really prefer summoning the tablet on skill activation over on swap…

IMO a good value for the staff 1 heal would probably be 250 +(0.15)

epouvante.7392:

Love the proposed changes a lot it´s a nice work. There are also nerf where it is necessary! I m not conviced by the invocation line, maybe you have to find more changes (like you taunt all foes when you spa, 30 sec icd, or you win a buff when you equip a legend, 250 healing ventari, 250 crit shiro etc)

I dont want invocation to be mandatory. We are already locked in kitten herald if we want to be competitive. Im overall fine with these changes except charged mists. I was thinking about a bit different changes but in the end i dont wanted to change it too much. Main cultrip of traits in invocation are “do x above y energy and do x under z energy” which doesnt make a lot of sense

Varezenem.2813:

Had finally some time to review your suggestions and

Dismantle Fortifications
Consider reducing to 2 stacks.

Enchanted daggers
Reduce base healing to 4.5k and move that to the siphon.

Steadfast Rejuvenation
Remove the Vit. Increase the percentage. A Herald/Salvation/Retribution with this would have way too much sustain on clerics.

Selfless Amplification
2% is more than enough with the Invoking harmony changes. This trait by itself would give around 50% outgoing healing in SPvP….

Natural Abundance
Needs a secondary effect (not cleansing ;p)

Energy expulsion
Might need a energy cost reduction (30) or make it heal in AoE the amount it would normally do per shard

And of course a small reduction on cleansing is probably still needed…

Also like I suggested in my topic I would really prefer summoning the tablet on skill activation over on swap…

1. If we reduce dismantle to 2 it might become useless vs some pulsing stab elites which may render this trait to be useless still. Ill think about it tho

2. 5k and were set

3. I will consider removing the vit/reducing. However i disagree with increasing the % without increasing it CD. It will give too much sustain to zerk rev

4. Finally! Yeah np

5. Like what? Got something in mind?

6. I think 35 is fine tbh.

7. Cleansing on it own have not changed all that much. The difference is in dodge which you dont have much control over in the first place and removed cd on purifying that could use increased energy cost if it happen to have too much cleanse.

8. Could you link this thread so i can see what you have in mind?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Suggestion-Ventari-Rework-ver/first#post5972964

Not really but a increase in regen effectiveness would match it (by 20% at most).
On steadfast rejuvenation 150 extra vit is the maximum amount that is still safe IMO.

Varezenem.2813:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Suggestion-Ventari-Rework-ver/first#post5972964

Not really but a increase in regen effectiveness would match it (by 20% at most).
On steadfast rejuvenation 150 extra vit is the maximum amount that is still safe IMO.

I see.. yeah doesnt sound too bad. WIll update

100 vit seems reasonable as minor effect on steadfast rather than completely removing it.. or increasing the %

As for regen effectiveness.. it something that may fit Glint more, dont you think? Herald is boon oriented after all and actually.. it miss 2 traits

Burtnik.5218:

As for regen effectiveness.. it something that may fit Glint more, dont you think? Herald is boon oriented after all and actually..he miss 2 traits

That’s true. There aren’t too many secondary effects that can be applied there though.
Perhaps increase the target cap for centaur stance skills to 10. (not their style but works for raids and WvW).

K, edited stuff except dismantle (unles i missed something else). I would like to see more ppl voice their opinion about that one before applying any change.

Overall the rework going..to the end. What left is herald, shield. Glint is fine so no changes needed and that leaves theorycraft to check out all the synergy, catch up too stronk stuff and see if core rev will be playable based on the changes. Thats was the main goal after all. Playable core, Glint changed to alternative boon oriented gameplay

Oh and ranged condition wep.. but that can be mostly copy-pasted from spear already.

Burtnik.5218:

K, edited stuff except dismantle (unles i missed something else). I would like to see more ppl voice their opinion about that one before applying any change.

Overall the rework going..to the end. What left is herald, shield. Glint is fine so no changes needed and that leaves theorycraft to check out all the synergy, catch up too stronk stuff and see if core rev will be playable based on the changes. Thats was the main goal after all. Playable core, Glint changed to alternative boon oriented gameplay

Oh and ranged condition wep.. but that can be mostly copy-pasted from spear already.

Well I really think the condi cleanse is too strong…
Here is the reason
Assume you build as tanky as possible (in this case Jalis/Ventari Retribution/Salvation/Herald)
Answer these questions:

1.If you fight a 1v2 can this build be killed in less than 30sec by 2 competent DPSs with the right tools?

2.If you take 2 of these on a point can they hold a 2v5 for a long period of time?

I feel that the answer to the first question is most likely yes and for the second is definitely yes.
This can be obtained by using Ventari to cleanse only and Jalis for power damage reduction.

The reason for those questions is that whenever these apply ANET has consistently overnerfed these builds.

Even though you might not like it a cooldown on PE might be the best way since you wouldn’t hurt the amount a support would be able to cleanse while keeping bunkers in check.

As unlikely as it would be, what if Ventari somehow increased the max vitality of your team mates for a while and/or could apply a sort of overheal?

That would give it a huge niche.

Also, I’ll be going over your other suggestions in…a while, Burntik. I need to find some free time and then analyze em!

Malchior.5732:

As unlikely as it would be, what if Ventari somehow increased the max vitality of your team mates for a while and/or could apply a sort of overheal?

That would give it a huge niche.

Also, I’ll be going over your other suggestions in…a while, Burntik. I need to find some free time and then analyze em!

Overheal isn’t bad and it does fit the sustain theme.

Varezenem.2813:

Burtnik.5218:

K, edited stuff except dismantle (unles i missed something else). I would like to see more ppl voice their opinion about that one before applying any change.

Overall the rework going..to the end. What left is herald, shield. Glint is fine so no changes needed and that leaves theorycraft to check out all the synergy, catch up too stronk stuff and see if core rev will be playable based on the changes. Thats was the main goal after all. Playable core, Glint changed to alternative boon oriented gameplay

Oh and ranged condition wep.. but that can be mostly copy-pasted from spear already.

Well I really think the condi cleanse is too strong…
Here is the reason
Assume you build as tanky as possible (in this case Jalis/Ventari Retribution/Salvation/Herald)
Answer these questions:

1.If you fight a 1v2 can this build be killed in less than 30sec by 2 competent DPSs with the right tools?

2.If you take 2 of these on a point can they hold a 2v5 for a long period of time?

I feel that the answer to the first question is most likely yes and for the second is definitely yes.
This can be obtained by using Ventari to cleanse only and Jalis for power damage reduction.

The reason for those questions is that whenever these apply ANET has consistently overnerfed these builds.

Even though you might not like it a cooldown on PE might be the best way since you wouldn’t hurt the amount a support would be able to cleanse while keeping bunkers in check.

Heres the thing however. In Ventari you have condi cleanse/healing to allies and nothing else going for it. No damage reduction, no selfheal to save you, just healing allies/removing conditions. You may be tough to be taken down in Jalis to power builds, but as soon you swap you will melt unless you manage to pull rite before swap (unlikely).

30 energy is equal to 6sec, you may cast it basically 2 times in a row after a swap but after that you end up starving for energy while condi does it thing. Maybe it would be a wise decision to not give Ventari stunbreak and increase energy on essence to 35 and change essense on dodge to the mentioned earlier “cast lesser version of essence” with reduced condi cleanse to 2?

Or simply reduce essence to 2 condi cleanse keeping 30 energy cost

But

1. Generally yes, based on the class combo. Something like thief+reaper will wipe floor with Ventari+jalis

2. You cant stack classes anymore as far i know

Malchior.5732:

As unlikely as it would be, what if Ventari somehow increased the max vitality of your team mates for a while and/or could apply a sort of overheal?

That would give it a huge niche.

Also, I’ll be going over your other suggestions in…a while, Burntik. I need to find some free time and then analyze em!

Jalis/Mallyx/Sword is the main thing you want to look at. As for your suggestion.. no idea how it could be done. I believe Ventari was supposed to be sustained healing rather than burst (druid)

Burtnik.5218:

Varezenem.2813:

Burtnik.5218:

K, edited stuff except dismantle (unles i missed something else). I would like to see more ppl voice their opinion about that one before applying any change.

Overall the rework going..to the end. What left is herald, shield. Glint is fine so no changes needed and that leaves theorycraft to check out all the synergy, catch up too stronk stuff and see if core rev will be playable based on the changes. Thats was the main goal after all. Playable core, Glint changed to alternative boon oriented gameplay

Oh and ranged condition wep.. but that can be mostly copy-pasted from spear already.

Well I really think the condi cleanse is too strong…
Here is the reason
Assume you build as tanky as possible (in this case Jalis/Ventari Retribution/Salvation/Herald)
Answer these questions:

1.If you fight a 1v2 can this build be killed in less than 30sec by 2 competent DPSs with the right tools?

2.If you take 2 of these on a point can they hold a 2v5 for a long period of time?

I feel that the answer to the first question is most likely yes and for the second is definitely yes.
This can be obtained by using Ventari to cleanse only and Jalis for power damage reduction.

The reason for those questions is that whenever these apply ANET has consistently overnerfed these builds.

Even though you might not like it a cooldown on PE might be the best way since you wouldn’t hurt the amount a support would be able to cleanse while keeping bunkers in check.

Heres the thing however. In Ventari you have condi cleanse/healing to allies and nothing else going for it. No damage reduction, no selfheal to save you, just healing allies/removing conditions. You may be tough to be taken down in Jalis to power builds, but as soon you swap you will melt unless you manage to pull rite before swap (unlikely).

30 energy is equal to 6sec, you may cast it basically 2 times in a row after a swap but after that you end up starving for energy while condi does it thing. Maybe it would be a wise decision to not give Ventari stunbreak and increase energy on essence to 35?

Malchior.5732:

As unlikely as it would be, what if Ventari somehow increased the max vitality of your team mates for a while and/or could apply a sort of overheal?

That would give it a huge niche.

Also, I’ll be going over your other suggestions in…a while, Burntik. I need to find some free time and then analyze em!

Jalis/Mallyx/Sword is the main thing you want to look at. As for your suggestion.. no idea at all.

35 energy is too much (that’s what it originally was) and you really wouldn’t melt to power builds while in Ventari (Protection and damage reduction traits in retribution are good enough for 1v2 in my own experience).
The total amount of energy available in a period of 10 sec is 100 therefore 3 PEs+Ventari’s Will.

Edited the post which you probably have not seen.
“Or simply reduce essence to 2 condi cleanse keeping 30 energy cost”

Burtnik.5218:

Edited the post which you probably have not seen.
“Or simply reduce essence to 2 condi cleanse keeping 30 energy cost”

That’s ok. =p

Varezenem.2813:

Burtnik.5218:

Edited the post which you probably have not seen.
“Or simply reduce essence to 2 condi cleanse keeping 30 energy cost”

That’s ok. =p

Theres always other solution than slapping cd as you see.. cd solution is lazy imo.

However now that you raise these points, maybe Ventari should remain without stunbreak, like Mallyx?

For me precision strike must be a body skill not a range skill too. I mean Shiro is a kittening assassin, he deliver quick strikes with sword and we have a skill that throw daggers from a sword? What?! Meh….

Burtnik.5218:

Varezenem.2813:

Burtnik.5218:

Edited the post which you probably have not seen.
“Or simply reduce essence to 2 condi cleanse keeping 30 energy cost”

That’s ok. =p

Theres always other solution than slapping cd as you see.. cd solution is lazy imo.

However now that you raise these points, maybe Ventari should remain without stunbreak, like Mallyx?

Certainly not, that would give Ventari too many weaknesses. Currently our main weakness is condition damage while Tempest/Druid is primarily CC. Having a different weakness is good IMO.
The stunbreak is only there to compensate for the removal of Enhanced Bulwark.
Also keeping ventari weak to condi damage is what reduces the synergy with Jalis to a reasonable point IMO.

gannondorf.7628:

For me precision strike must be a body skill not a range skill too. I mean Shiro is a kittening assassin, he deliver quick strikes with sword and we have a skill that throw daggers from a sword? What?! Meh….

Well ranged skill has it + and – obviously. I guess if most want it to stay as ranged attack i cant really go against it. I had “looking for a feedback” in my main post for a reason. If i didnt care about feedback then i would make sword stricle single target oriented and full melee in my changes. Theme/lore is not something i care about as gameplay is more important.

Also tbh that projectile looks cool, but it need to be fixed to actually hit at 600 range. Sword is broken in current state as it is unbalanced mess for both 1v1 and teamfight/group of mobs.

But generally i do understand why they moved damage from auto and reduced duration of ua while also increasing damage per strike. These changes made sword more a burst weapon rather than sustained dps one. Looking at the bright side you dont have to burn energy on impossible odds anymore, which is a good thing.

The bug with damage on rift, 2 and 3 i a different subject tho

I did some calculations and If you reduce conditions cleansed to on PE to 2 decrease the energy cost to 25 and increase the ICD on eluding nulification to 15sec.
The end result would be fine a .66(24% increase) condi cleansed /sec over the current 0.53 with harsher requirements.
Instead of the .88 (66% Increase) achievable with your current suggestions.
It’s also less than your suggestions and a 5sec cooldown on PE (.733. 38% increase).
It also makes Eluding nullification closer to what similar traits in other profession can do.
Doing it affects support revs less.
It’s also almost the same amount of cleanse as reducing the total amount of cleanses on PE to 2 (.633/sec).

I’m not in tune with revenants because I main warrior, but I’m certainly glad you’re aware of cruel repercussions and applied changes to it. I think it’s wonderful that people are doing thorough reconstructions of professions for the sake of balance, rather than crying about problems and throwing more “simple fixes” as suggestions.

Keep up the good work, I’ll be monitoring this thread.

edit/ Just a suggestion, perhaps allow direct comments on your document? (click the share button, allow people to comment) It will facilitate for easier collaboration.

also put [Suggestion] in front of your thread title, and make it a Q/A thread, it’ll make it a lot more visible.

edit2/ If you’re interested, I could create a spreadsheet and give you editing rights to it. I think it is easier to follow on changes that way. Would you be interested? (see my link in my signature for an example)

I mained warrior for over 4k hours but dropped it year ago for ranger/guard. I always wanted something like “death knight” and rev overall seems to fit it well – some stuff at least. Hopefully they give warrior a whole rework one day tho. Heavy armor 4ever if you know what i mean

Title is something i plan to change once i post herald and shield (dat title is terrible tbh)
Enabled comments as well – wasnt aware they are off.

As for the spreadsheet, yeah it looks nice but i believe my document looks clean enough.. i will consider that option tho, thanks!

Anyone good at naming traits? Buhahaha.

Need them for;

Deal increased damage to foes with no boons – 5% (adept)
Gain damage based on the amount of facets you have active – 2% per facet (master)

I changed Glint to 3 lines – dps, survival, support.

Dps more pve oriented, survival/support for pvp/wvw

Added Herald, Glint, Shield, Downstate, Condition rifle

Way too much Herald/Glint nerf for me…

I think you’re trying to make core revenant viable. If so you just need to up other spec, no need to nerf elite which is the only one that makes rev viable atm thanks to support abilities.

Btw this is “elite spec” not “just another spec”. Doesn’t it seem normal to be slightly better than others ?
Would make more sense if we have more elite to choose.

Rifle on rev… please no -_-
Rev is a fighter !
Greatsword condi with dual melee/ranged AA like underwater spear… yes please

Liked most suggestions on other legends.

Numerous changes are interesting and good. Even if i don’t love rifle in a spiritual theme is seems to be quite interesting (even if it have two of the same skills that spear has). But i’m a bit worried about it. We all know that revenant need a big rework but we know too that anet are don’t going to do it so… we need to be really hopefull.

MrHarses.6801:

Way too much Herald/Glint nerf for me…

I think you’re trying to make core revenant viable. If so you just need to up other spec, no need to nerf elite which is the only one that makes rev viable atm thanks to support abilities.

Btw this is “elite spec” not “just another spec”. Doesn’t it seem normal to be slightly better than others ?
Would make more sense if we have more elite to choose.

Rifle on rev… please no -_-
Rev is a fighter !
Greatsword condi with dual melee/ranged AA like underwater spear… yes please

Liked most suggestions on other legends.

Herald is unbalanced. It provides way too much to the point where you cant skip it. Glint is also too forgiving energy wise as well. Goal is to up underpowered stuff a bit and nerf op so both end up balanced. You shouldnt be stronger by picking up herald and vice versa. I think i have managed that by these changes. Now its pretty much down to tweaks

That said herald will remain mandatory in raids contest just for 50% boon duration alone. I think its a bit too much but in the end without this skill we may be out of raids.

gannondorf.7628:

Numerous changes are interesting and good. Even if i don’t love rifle in a spiritual theme is seems to be quite interesting (even if it have two of the same skills that spear has). But i’m a bit worried about it. We all know that revenant need a big rework but we know too that anet are don’t going to do it so… we need to be really hopefull.

2 from spear, 2 from warrior (combu shot and Repeating Shot), 1 from dh (deflecting shot), 1 from engineer rifle (jump shot). Fun stuff. And it could also be changed to a lb.. in the end its just matter of skin. Condi rifle feels more original tho.

Once everything is tweaked and polished i will send it to Roy and hope for the best.. thats all we can do :O

Also any suggestions for a name to Noname1 and Noname2? Lmao.

Since I lack time I’ll keep this short.
I found a good solution for the salvation/ventari problem that does not involve trashing PE or EN.
Let PE cleanse 3 conditions and swap natural abundance and eluding nulification.
NA is too bad for a GM. EN is too good for a M. By throwing EN to GM you increase the opportunity cost instead keeping it in line with other GM cleanse traits.

I don’t feel that glint or shield need nerfs.
Your version of shield would make Crystal Hibernation OP on high HPower builds while at best OK on low HPower builds.
Currently SW OH is better for builds with less than 700 HPower while Shield for 700HPower+.
Energy and opportunity cost for Glint is fine you already gave baseline Rev OoC mobility and increased Jalis sustain to a higher level than Glint.
Glint is only taken because it’s on the same level as Shiro right now while being more of a neutral base. This can be observed by observing that it’s not taken over shiro on mallyx/shiro because it lacks in combat mobility and stun breaks.
The addition of more specialized E.Specs will further reduce this issue.

On the Herald line Soothing Bastion is obviously the weaker choice. If you go with the shield toughness+Boon duration extension it will be fine IMO.