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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

I keep seeing this a lot and from a PvP perspective, it simply isn’t true. I can’t really address the PvE side as there’s not established meta right now for the Revenant so it can’t quite be compared to other classes in that regard, though I do feel it is quite strong.

The truth of this is that people don’t FEEL like it does enough damage, because they aren’t see Da Big Numbaz

I had trouble calculating the exact Co-efficients in the PvP lobby because I couldn’t find the weapon strength for PvP Items, so the numbers provided are based on the PvE calculations I did in LA. These numbers will be near-identical to PvP.

Auto Attack
Full Auto Chain Co-efficient: 3.0
-Preparation Thrust (1): 0.8
-Brutal Blade (2) 0.5 each way – 1.0 Total
-Rift Slash (3) 0.9 Initial, 0.3 Secondary – 1.2 Total ImportantThis skill creates the rift on EVERY target, for a very high potential burst while cleaving – We’re only assuming 1 target here however.

This skill takes around 2 seconds. I’m not sure of the absolute exact time but it is very close to this. I’m guessing around 1.9 – 2.4 seconds, hopefully someone can time this more accurately in the future.

Precision Strike
Co-efficient: 0.85
Recharge: 4s

This skill is actually pretty respectable damage for what it offers. It’s a nice short-range chill. The only problem with this is the chill duration. It could be upped to 1.5 – 2s but we aren’t talking condis here.

UNRELENTING ASSAULT
Seriously, this skill has some phat damage. It sits above a kill-shot if you get every hit off on your target.

You’re actually looking at around a 3.85 coefficient
The cast time is incredibly short at around 0.75s and the recharge is pretty respectable. This skill is basically the Revenant’s Rapid Fire on a shorter.

I think the reason people complain about this is there’s not really any way to select one target and it’s somewhat lacking when faced with multiple foes. Each individual hit is around 0.55. I think the best thing here would actually be to make this cleave 2 or 3 targets, or add a “channel” effect to it.

People seem to think they’re doing “big damage” when they see big numbers. If UR becomes more of a channel instead of 7 individual little hits then I feel this skill will get the respect it truly deserves.

Comparisons

I wanted to throw in a few comparisons, regarding co-efficients.

Kill Shot: 3.25 at max
Rapid Fire: 3.75
Eviscerate: 3.0
Warrior Axe Auto: 5.0 (3.6s chain time, so we’re looking at around the same damage as Rev auto here)
100b: 5.31 (3.25s cast, roots, huge telegraph)
Lava Font: 3.207
Guard Sword Auto: 3.1
Whirling Wrath: 2.8

So when you look at these, there really isn’t much to complain about regarding Revenant’s damage with Sword. It’s not the damage, it’s the way the damage is presented and utilised. Make UA have a channel (stack numbers per phone) and maybe throw a small cleave in and it’s perfect.

noice

(edited by mexay.3902)

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

I do also want to throw in that because of this skill’s functionality, it SERIOUSLY needs an evade, but this isn’t really to do with damage.

noice

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Posted by: Killyox.3950

Killyox.3950

I agree that swords are good.

Unrelenting Assault is punished by point CC since teleporting does not give immunity so it’s not an auto win or anything. Stuns, dazes, knockdows, blinds and so on counter it quite nicely. Even dodge and blocks. So it’s not OP but not bad either. Maybe range increase to 600 from 450 ?

Auto-attack chain is kinda wonky. I feel like i gets stucks sometimes but it has more to do with bugs I guess. Still liking it a lot. One of the best if not the best autoattacks in the game.

Precision strike could indeed use increase to 1,5-2s chill or if chill is too strong maybe longer cripple. OR maybe since it’s ‘precision’ make it always crit XD

All in all I am very happy with Sword/Sword & Shiro as well as with Hammer (finally can be a full fledged dmg weapon). Jalis is also nice with Inspiring Reinforcement + Hammers but I kinda dislike Taunt :P 50 is too hefty a cost.

Some traits could use working.

Lots of improvements overall from previous beta.

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Posted by: Killyox.3950

Killyox.3950

I do also want to throw in that because of this skill’s functionality, it SERIOUSLY needs an evade, but this isn’t really to do with damage.

I am on fence with this. Evade would sort of make this skill have no counterplay besides being on the defensive by enemy players while being open to counterattack can reward them for punishing.

Question is how punishable UA really is. after first hit it’s easily interruptible tbh and if that’s the case longterm it won’t be used too much.

Lots of bugs with some skills as well like #2 hammer #5 sword #5 axe and so on.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I am on fence with this. Evade would sort of make this skill have no counterplay besides being on the defensive by enemy players while being open to counterattack can reward them for punishing.

Yeah, I remember discussing this when the power came out. I think a solid solution is for it to grant a second or so of Stability at the start, maybe even pulse it out in quick bursts, and maybe also some Protection or Aegis, basically a defensive effect that is still potentially counterable. It would give you some basic defense against attack, but could be stripped away by a determined enemy. I think with nothing it’s a bit too “squishy,” but agree that complete damage immunity for the duration might be a bit much (still, other games like Marvel Heroes have several abilities like this, and they all do provide total immunity).

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Sword is very strong, but its strongest attack is AA. Other skills need a buff, otherwise they’re not worth the energy (or even get rid of the energy cost on weaponskills).
Simple as that.

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Posted by: uhohhotdog.3598

uhohhotdog.3598

I think the biggest issue is energy

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Posted by: mexay.3902

mexay.3902

I do also want to throw in that because of this skill’s functionality, it SERIOUSLY needs an evade, but this isn’t really to do with damage.

I am on fence with this. Evade would sort of make this skill have no counterplay besides being on the defensive by enemy players while being open to counterattack can reward them for punishing.

Question is how punishable UA really is. after first hit it’s easily interruptible tbh and if that’s the case longterm it won’t be used too much.

Lots of bugs with some skills as well like #2 hammer #5 sword #5 axe and so on.

I think being able to be CC’d during this is fine, that makes sense because it’s a high power skill, but I feel that the counter being to simply drop damage at your feet is kind of to easy. Maybe give it a Vapor Form effect, where you can be CC’d or receive conditions, but not damage?

noice

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

I think the biggest issue is energy

Yep. No point in using weaponskills if they make you unable to use healing/utility/elite

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Posted by: Rain.9213

Rain.9213

I think it definitely needs to have evade frames throughout the entire skill. I wouldn’t mind if the damage got nerfed to bring it line with Rapid Fire but it NEEDS an evade. If a ranger can hit Rapid Fire and your only option is to dodge, block, or invuln then I don’t see why Revenant can’t have something similar. Except with a Revenant, you have to actually run up close to them whereas a Ranger, you can pew pew them to death from 1500 range. Furthermore, a Revenant has to isolate their target to get this kinda damage off.

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Posted by: Mournilg.4870

Mournilg.4870

UA is an Alpha strike like skill (Master Yi in LoL or juggernaut ult in dota)
All the challenge of such an attack is to use it at the right time.

The + :
Hard hitting (debatable, i feel it a bit low as you do more damages auto-attacking for the same duration)
multi-hit attack
little gap closer

The – :
long animation
Partly dodgeable, blindable, blockable
it’s melee
it puts you next to your target (who didn’t wait a Yi with a stun at the end of an alpha strike?)
locks you in the animation for all the duration

My opinion is something is lacking, may it be evade frames, more damage for the high risk/high reward OR faster execution. Just my opinion though ^^

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Posted by: Chuck Zitto.2367

Chuck Zitto.2367

When I did try zerker gear on the rev I felt the sword dmg was a little underwhelming as well then I switched to hammer. What co-efficients is this thing using man it hits hard.

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Posted by: SuinegTsol.1729

SuinegTsol.1729

ye, anet, please SEPERATE PvP from PvE. This is just another proove^^.

so let me show you the PvE side:
on PvE due to you want things to fast, you use fastest gear/build/class.
This means you use what gives you most damage.
Currently this is berzerker gear with dps weapons and traits.

I tested out Revenant on few dungeons and looked at combat log to proove the impressions.
Revenant dps is about 6k (rampager condi 5k^^) with jalis and shiro.
It offers max vulnerability for team, which is nice, but nothing to take it for as support (using tablet reduces dps even more).

When i take my thief, which is one of the good dps classes you take, my dps just using aa on dagger is anout the same. But i still can use utility skills and other weapon skills, that skyrocket my dps to double.

So when you got the choice between a revenant and a normal dmg class you never take revenant for doing a dungeon. Same you can see now with necro. Noone like to take them.
The only reason to pick a class with low dps is when it got great support, like a mesmer.
But even a mesmer deal more dps, and when you can reflect a enemy and prevent a ele from being knocked down casting icebow, it’s still worth to keep it.

So when you see those “cries” on revenant dps, its just the fear from ppl, to get a new class, which they will never be able to use on what they like to play.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

pve and pvp are already separated. there are many skills/traits that work differently on player characters.
so I’m sure that if they want to change some effects for pvp only they’ll do it.

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Posted by: Seraphis Zurvan.6839

Seraphis Zurvan.6839

I agree the sword is very strong……if it’s all single target. In the case of Guild Wars 2, whether it be PvP or PvE, this is most of the time not the case. Perhaps add a damage modifier that increases its overall damage based on the amount of targets around you in a certain radius so when it chains to other targets, it does actual damage. Outside of that, sword is alright.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

Doesn’t it do more damage when 3 targets are around? Talking about AA.

(edited by Kidel.2057)

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Posted by: Killyox.3950

Killyox.3950

When I did try zerker gear on the rev I felt the sword dmg was a little underwhelming as well then I switched to hammer. What co-efficients is this thing using man it hits hard.

Sword is actually stronger. Doesn’t get as high numbers because it’s faster but I had 3,5k hits from last attack on #1. With proper positioning and so on.

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Posted by: Moxi.5861

Moxi.5861

Here are my thougths about the revenant and his main hand sword.

The sword feels overall kinda weak in comparison to what other classes are able to pull off in terms of damage. This could be caused by the overall lack of consistent dmg amplifiers. Additionally the Sword auto has no good cleaving.
In case you want to maximize your personal dps, i wouldnt recommend using unrelenting assult. Since it takes roughly 3 to 4 seconds to complete. Even your Sword auto attack deals more damage per second. Sword 2 is hardly a damage increase over your sword auto. Either the sword auto dmg has to be improved or the other sword skills have to bring some huge burst dmg. Otherwise i cant see the revenant compete in terms of dps with other classes (even necro has better dps actually).
I did some calculations and with sword/axe the revenant could deal between 6k and 7k
dps. Which depends on your targets health obviously. I think revenant would be in a good state when he is capable of doing somewhere between 10k to 11k dps.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I kinda dislike Taunt :P 50 is too hefty a cost.

I’d have to agree with this. Considering that Jade Winds can petrify up to five targets within 600, a chain that only provides a 2s crowd control, to a single target, if it hits, seems a little lacklustre for the same cost. Sure, it’s probably paying a premuim for being on Jalis, but it could probably stand to be lowered down to 40.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: steve.2945

steve.2945

rapid laceration + impossible odds, the sword dishes out ALOT of damage in a short amount of time.

Proud TTS member

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Posted by: Griffith.7238

Griffith.7238

Man thank you for this I love when people take the time to present irrefutable evidence (Math OP). Although I didn’t take the time to run the numbers myself I can see this clear as day when testing out TTK’s using my other classes burst combo’s. None of them could touch the combo I use on my Rev. I honestly don’t see how other people can even complain the sword while buggy at times does incredible amounts of damage when it works.

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Posted by: Enokitake.1742

Enokitake.1742

My problem with sword three isn’t the damage, its the lack of evade and how suddenly worthless it becomes when fighting mesmers, minion masters, spirit weapon guards, turret engies, or anything with stability that’s near something else and can’t be pulled with sword 5 (or summons adds while being immune to CC, in the case of many champions/elites/veterans).

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Posted by: Recursivision.2367

Recursivision.2367

In addition, when you factor in additional damage from the shiro heal/life siphon traits you’re talking some pretty hefty damage.

It will be really easily punishable once opponents catch on, but it certainly doesn’t lack in damage.

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Posted by: BlazeQ.1095

BlazeQ.1095

What I found in WvW was that the Sword did have a good chance at doing a lot of damage, being able to stay in range of my enemy to do that damage was a big challenge. I found that when using the skills to close combat, i would find myself behind my enemy and facing the wrong direction. Skill 2 just seemed very lack luster, and skill 3’s short distance (450) is hard for me to judge.

As far as burst damage goes, My Condi guard, does a great deal more burst damage.

Just my thoughts.

Cold Beerdrinker
PB Officer
NSP

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Posted by: Killyox.3950

Killyox.3950

My problem with sword three isn’t the damage, its the lack of evade and how suddenly worthless it becomes when fighting mesmers, minion masters, spirit weapon guards, turret engies, or anything with stability that’s near something else and can’t be pulled with sword 5 (or summons adds while being immune to CC, in the case of many champions/elites/veterans).

You got #4 on sword for 2s block and you probably run shiro for swords so you can use Utility #1 to break stun, remove condis (some), get 3/4th sec evade + get back 50% endurance, enough for 1 dodge.

If you are worried about stability use Dismantle Defenses iirc name GM trait.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

problem is that if you do all that you can’t do high damage, or if you activate impossible odds then you can’t have survivability.
Energy cost needs a little bit of tweaking. of course, there is legendswap, but sometimes you’re forced to choose between stunbreak and heal, and that’s bad.

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Posted by: Sylent.3165

Sylent.3165

Brutal blade the 2nd attack in chain is extremely underpowered. The damage is way to low where the 3rd attack does not compensate for it. Yes it’s underpowered compared to many classes considering our 2 skill is junk, 3 skill is bad unless on solo target

Heck both necromancer and thief auto attacks crush revenant by about 25%. The swords damage is not good.

(edited by Sylent.3165)

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Posted by: ResJudicator.7916

ResJudicator.7916

The main problem with swords is that the second attack in the AA chain has issues hitting moving targets when the revenant is also moving around (i.e. most pvp fights). This causes the Revenant to keep repeating the second attack in the AA chain until it either connects, or enough time has lapsed that the AA chain resets.

So in PvP fights, you end up with a lot of dead space where you’re not doing any damage from the AA if you and your opponent are both moving around. They need to make the second skill in the AA chain have better hit registration to get around this. One way would be to make the skill have almost 0 precast animation (but add extra time to the aftercast so that net DPS is the same), and make the projectile move much faster. Or just give it homing.

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Posted by: Enokitake.1742

Enokitake.1742

My problem with sword three isn’t the damage, its the lack of evade and how suddenly worthless it becomes when fighting mesmers, minion masters, spirit weapon guards, turret engies, or anything with stability that’s near something else and can’t be pulled with sword 5 (or summons adds while being immune to CC, in the case of many champions/elites/veterans).

You got #4 on sword for 2s block and you probably run shiro for swords so you can use Utility #1 to break stun, remove condis (some), get 3/4th sec evade + get back 50% endurance, enough for 1 dodge.

If you are worried about stability use Dismantle Defenses iirc name GM trait.

Dismantle defenses + sword 5 will cancel out 2 stacks of stability, whereas most stability skills give you 3-5 stacks of stability, which means you need 2-3 CC’s before you can remove someone from a group of anything… and that still doesn’t answer CC immune veterans, champions, legendary mobs, or anything that can’t be pulled and is near another target/summons adds.

You literally need a target that is alone to “do enough damage” with sword 3.

Summon turrets at initiation of a fight versus revenant and pop stability. Summon clones and a phantasm and simply keep them up while dpsing. Have a spirit weapon up. Use a ranger spirit or just have your pet next to you. Have a minion or for literally no problems, have 2/3+. Use stealth. Use an elemental summon. If you did get pulled out of a group, use blink/shadow step/teleport/rush/whirling blade/any leaps (if accessible) to move back into it.

Any of those instantly makes sword skill three’s damage lulzy, because even at max output cause half your damage now goes to the wrong target just due to its mechanics… and Half of these are a natural function/requirement of the most common PvP builds.

…and that’s before the target uses ANY crowd control skill during the duration of sword 3 (which is why it should have an evade if its going to mechanically function the way it does). Use daze. Use stun. Use taunt. Use launch. Use push-back. Use knockdown. Use pull. Use fear.

…AND that’s before the target does the most obvious thing and uses dodge, block, invulnerable, evade, or has protection up with all of the above. (or is a bunker)

Damage isn’t sword three’s problem, Mechanics is sword three’s problem.

(And that’s before we start discussing anything about all the energy you just used to get off that burst you’re not going to land on its intended target.)

(edited by Enokitake.1742)

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Posted by: Killyox.3950

Killyox.3950

Brutal blade the 2nd attack in chain is extremely underpowered. The damage is way to low where the 3rd attack does not compensate for it. Yes it’s underpowered compared to many classes considering our 2 skill is junk, 3 skill is bad unless on solo target

Heck both necromancer and thief auto attacks crush revenant by about 25%. The swords damage is not good.

It’s actually strong. It hits twice, giving more vuln and hitting all in line. It’s just awkwardly presented due to 3/4s cast instead of 1/2 like the rest. #2 isn’t great but it’s not the worst. Lets you catch up people. It could use a buff though.

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Posted by: Kidel.2057

Kidel.2057

https://twitter.com/RoyCronacher/status/629744752137666560
(he’s talking about sword#2 if you read the whole conversation. Twitter is strange)

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Posted by: Rygg.6237

Rygg.6237

Brutal blade the 2nd attack in chain is extremely underpowered. The damage is way to low where the 3rd attack does not compensate for it. Yes it’s underpowered compared to many classes considering our 2 skill is junk, 3 skill is bad unless on solo target

Heck both necromancer and thief auto attacks crush revenant by about 25%. The swords damage is not good.

It’s actually strong. It hits twice, giving more vuln and hitting all in line. It’s just awkwardly presented due to 3/4s cast instead of 1/2 like the rest. #2 isn’t great but it’s not the worst. Lets you catch up people. It could use a buff though.

Coefficients don’t seem to be accord with the DPS delivered since they’re high but currently the DPS is around 6-6.5 k for both Sword/Axe and Staff, that’s the lowest DPS out of all professions.

PvE wise that’s too low considering the “party support” that Revenant brings which is just adding +150 party wide ferocity (assassin’s presence which is overkill considering you get fury and might uptime from other sources) and zerker gear gets you to 55-60% crit chance alone), some stability (given you take Jalis), 4-8k burst heal (that can be easily equaled by blasted waterfields) plus projectile destruction on Ventari (which is bad since you have reflects in 2 professions and 1 blind spam plus projectile destruction) and an unreliable spammable CC in Jade winds (which is weaker than Deep Freeze, I tried it and it didn’t always work and the stun durations is shorter), in short Revenant has nothing valuable to add to a party, you don’t need that much healing because you have a lot of defenses even in zerker gear: Water Fields, Protection, Weakness, Blind, Reflects/Projectile Destruction, Vigor, Positioning, LoS and well if you stand in the god kitten fire path that has tendrils growing out of it no healing, boons or protection will help you survive.

PvP wise the burst potential is there, but you have to be cautious and also hitting still targets is very much different from hitting a moving intelligent player, you won’t be able to hit them as much without getting countered, 1v1 I could burst around 50-70% HP with Axe 5, Axe 4, Sword 2 and Staff 5 (2-3 hits) of most classes besides Necromancers and Warriors however the set up for that included using either Displacement or Jade Winds so literally you bursted them to the point they could die that seems good right? well not so much, they could peel, heal and leave you locked in a legend with 20% energy and no options to counterpressure them until you either got to 50-70% energy, got weaponswap up or legend swap up, that’s why Revenants can’t do much 1v1 the energy cost of most abilities was too demanding vs your options to counterplay specially because other professions have better survival and defense options, even with the high damage modifiers you have.

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Posted by: oscuro.9720

oscuro.9720

It’s more about the amount of damage for the risk you invite for gaining such damage. With very little sustain via protection, good regen, or damage mitigation, you will almost ways take more damage than u put out. A good example is sword 3. I fought a rev on my warrior. When he used sword 3 I used 100 blades and hit 17k. Needless to say the revenant died. That’s the issue.

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Posted by: JoshuaRAWR.4653

JoshuaRAWR.4653

https://twitter.com/RoyCronacher/status/629744752137666560
(he’s talking about sword#2 if you read the whole conversation. Twitter is strange)

No, he’s talking about staff #2.
Someone then asked about sword 2, but didn’t receive a reply.

Warrior 80 | Guardian 80 | Ranger 80 | Engineer 80 |
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA

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Posted by: Adrian Guardian.9480

Adrian Guardian.9480

Damage is certainly enough on sword. But it lacks the defense of staff and the range of mace.

Sword skill #2 looks like it made for catching enemies or starting fights, but skill #3 is better for that and has the same range. Or for weaving in and out of combat, but the recharge is a bit high for that. I find myself wishing for lower CD and/or more range (600) so that it can pull that kind of weight as utility. Damage is fine on it.

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

^ Related, Sword 2 needs a blind which would give it the utility. There really needs to be some type of active or passive defense on Rev main hand sword.

Sword 3 is pretty awesome feeling (wish it was a tad longer range since it requires a target) and gives it the needed mobility and continues the Rev sticking to the target better than anything sword 2 can do.

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Posted by: xarallei.4279

xarallei.4279

I don’t really agree with this, at least not for pve. The damage isn’t all that compared to other classes and when you add in the lackluster support there is little reason to take a revenant. They might get away with crappy support if they had amazing damage compared to the other classes. They don’t.

And rapid lacerations should be baseline or merged into some other trait because right now it competes with our main group support trait (underwhelming though it may be). Now maybe Glint will solve some of this maybe. But these are issues that should be resolved with the core spec. They shouldn’t need a bandaid from the elite spec.

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Posted by: Sylent.3165

Sylent.3165

I don’t really agree with this, at least not for pve. The damage isn’t all that compared to other classes and when you add in the lackluster support there is little reason to take a revenant. They might get away with crappy support if they had amazing damage compared to the other classes. They don’t.

And rapid lacerations should be baseline or merged into some other trait because right now it competes with our main group support trait (underwhelming though it may be). Now maybe Glint will solve some of this maybe. But these are issues that should be resolved with the core spec. They shouldn’t need a bandaid from the elite spec.

Right. I have no idea where op got this info. Unless he got beat in pvp or something.

Sword damage no matter how you look at it, how you trait, whatever it is much weaker then other classes. By a long shot to. Not just guardian staff, but necro! My necro with a dagger can out dps rev kinda easy

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Posted by: xarallei.4279

xarallei.4279

I predict if things stay as they are, revenant will be another red headed step child like necro for pve. It seriously still needs work. Don’t get me wrong, it’s better than it was (because god it was dreadful last beta). But it’s still not where it needs to be.

You cannot look at revenant in a vacuum. It must be compared to the currently existing classes to see if it holds up. And at the moment, it doesn’t.