Guild Wars 2

Warning: Potentially bad math ahead. I think I made some of it up. Try to keep to the core issue folk

I love the thematics of this profession. But currently it is easily the least flexible of all of the professions. There is no utility. Despite various threads where players have finally began to complain about this Roy’s comments have indicated that he doesn’t believe it to be an issue. That if you want to play Glint/Shiro you have no ability to customize your build to help stave off conditions short of changing one of your Legends to Jalis or Mallyx.

Every other profession has (will have) approximately 5 heals, 24 utilities, and 4 Elites. There are 2,024 potential combinations of JUST the utility skills (and before you ask – I’m calculating combinations not permutations. So the same 3 Utilities in a different order doesn’t count as a new option). That means there are 8,096 combinations of Utilities + Elites, and so 40,480 combinations once you include the Heals.

Meanwhile Elite specced Revenants have a total of 10 combinations of Utility skills they can bring (6 without Herald). They also get to bring twice as many as any one else so let’s call it an effective value of 20 (12).

Now I know what you’re doing to say “Well yea, but most of those other professions skills aren’t even viable”. Fine, we’ll do an extremely frugal recalculation and say that for every profession there is only one viable heal, one viable Elite, and only 1/4th of the utilities are useful. We all know this to be patently false but I want to pad the numbers in the Revenant’s favor. This puts the numbers more on par, with 20 potential combinations of utilities if you’re elite specced and 10 if you’re not.

So to recap, our assumptions are:
1) Every Legend combination on the Revenant is viable. Granting them possible combinations of skills of 6 or 10, depending on if Elite specced. But they get double the Utility skills so we’ll call it 12/20.
2) For other professions we’re assuming that of their 5 heals, 24 Utilities, and 4 Elites only 1 Heal, 1/4th the Utilities, and 1 Elite are viable. Putting them at 20 potential combinations of skills (10 without Elite spec).

With these assumptions the “Utility” seems on par. I mean, so long as you don’t call me out for haphazardly doubling the Revenant’s number and severely culling the potential options of every other profession.

Other Considerations
1) Revenants are locked into their skills. If you’re Ventari and don’t need condition removal or projectile blocking you’re still stuck with those skills because you want to use the Tablet mechanic to support allies.
2) Despite the assumption that only 1/4th the Utilities are viable for other professions – there will still be situations where those other 3/4ths of the Utilities might have niche uses or where someone simply likes a skill despite the ‘meta’. This is called nuance. As it stands, the Revenant will never get niche utilities like the Mesmer’s Portal, the Various Revive skills, etc. because it would be a dead-slot most of time.

Flaws
First, there are plenty – I know. I’m not taking into account the Energy mechanic that restricts the usage of those utilities (and weaponskills too – ouch) and in general I’m putting Revenant utilities on a level playing field with all others when just looking at the Elites we know that is false. Revenant Elites are basically an extra Utility. There isn’t anything earth shatteringly potent like Time Warp (except for maybe that Glint heal). In general the Revenant skills are customized to their profession just like weapon skills are for Thieves. Meaning that they’re meant to be relatively spammable and to compete with your weapon skills via the Energy mechanic. You’re also expected to swap Legends frequently to refresh your Energy to 50%. I’m not saying this is a bad mechanic at all (though I don’t favor it) – but it’s outside the point I’m trying to make that, for no reason that I can come up with, the Revenant is being limited in their Utility options.

However, the biggest flaw pertinent to the issue I’m discussing is that when comparing relative “utility” I’m taking into account the Revenant’s profession mechanic while ignoring that of everyone else. Legend swapping (and heavy handed math) is the only thing that puts them remotely on par with any one else. Meanwhile, for every 6-0 an Engineer chooses he gets an extra toolbelt skill. That’s actually basically what Revenants get just in a different manner (two 6-0 bars) – and of course the Engineer has full ability to customize which skills he slots. A Mesmer gets four(five) extra skills on theirs, a Guardian gets 3, and a Necro gets a full 5. What does the Revenant get? Nothing – I’ve already taken everything their mechanic gives them into consideration when comparing relative utility. Oh yea, they get 1 extra skill if they spec Herald.

The Point
The entire point here is that I cannot fathom why ANet hasn’t done something so simple as add one or two more Utilities per Legend to give this profession some much needed nuance. Simply doing that would increase their numbers dramatically.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the thematics of this profession. But they are designed in such an odd and restrictive way that they just don’t fit with the rest of the professions – and there isn’t even a reason behind it so far as we’ve been told. That’s bad design. They don’t even get racial skills, they can’t use neutral skills (I.e. Mistwolf) which, at the end game, isn’t a really big deal since most people don’t use those anyways. Well, except for Take Root occasionally in my case. It’s the only way I beat the Queen’s Gauntlet. Oh hey – look, there’s some utility there. Sorry Revs.

But you know what the absolute worst thing is? I’ve been asking this question for months. Practically begging Roy to comment on it, to tell us why what seems like such an obvious thing hasn’t been done and hasn’t even been commented on except for comments in the Condition weakness thread that he doesn’t see it as an issue.

I just don’t get it – surely there were more than 3 Utilities suggested per Legend in Development – why limit it to 3 and not let them choose 3 out of 4 or 5? You can’t let Revenants have racials because it breaks the energy mechanic? Why not put in a set of neutral utilities that cost energy? Doing so would set a precedent and lets you grow the existing Legends in future content expansions – or is the design of the Revenant to always be a cookie cutter profession who makes a grand total of four choices when selecting his skills (Two weapons, two Legends)?

I feel the exact same way

Rev’s have one less SET of utilities than every other class, we also have no customization options.

In pvp our enemies know all our skills, before we use them, we are the ONLY class that that is true for.

I really think there should of been a another core option of utilities atleast full of racials if nothing else as we have the invocation trait line that has NO utilities and NO legend or weapon connected to it.

I feel in the long term our class will be too predictable in pvp.

I agree with every single point made here.

Nothing to add, I’ve been saying this since the first preview.

To be honest it feels good to play the Revenant now, but that was for one weekend. I’m not sure how well I can sustain a profession that has no customization.

I suggested making traits more impactful to promote at least some meaningful customization, but that doesn’t seem likely or realistic.

My best hope at this point is that if their metrics do indeed show many players dropping Revenant and not playing it anymore after the “new shiny” factor wears off (which I think they will) that they reconsider this stance they’ve taken and add another 1-2 options to each legend to make it fun to play after the first few months.

I know a common response is “well sure other professions can change skills, but they never do and there’s 3 best options in the meta”. I believe that is flawed, it’s not about how many “meta” options you have because by definition there’s sort of just one meta build. The point is having options. Guardians can exchange a skill for SotA when they need more projectile help, Engis can swap Toss Elixir R when they’re with a group that’s having trouble to make reviving easy, or Elixir C in PvP when the opposing team is all condi, etc I’m not going through every utility of every profession. These aren’t meta choices but they are meaningful choices you can make depending on the encounter and that’s what Rev is missing.

+1

I have never thought about this since I already thought the profession was very fun to play with, though this sounds like it could improve the quality of life/fun of the revenant a lot. While basically every profession can pick out of many more skills, it can also be fun switching them up eventhough they aren’t the best or maybe just switch them up based on the mode you’re playing. This can’t be done with revenant. I can imagine being bored or annoyed quite fast when you just have to deal with the same utilites over and over.

While it’s true rev doesn’t have the Plethora of utilities that other professions can pick one at a time, the reality is that in the end you have access to more utilities in combat than most others. Rev can have full set of support and damage utilities, for example, without going ooc. Now with the addition of herald u have the possibility of 9 (if you include secondary effects) utilities. For those who get bored easily what more could you want?

Does everything in the legends fit perfectly in all situations? Of course not, but what profession could you say that of.? D/D ele’s usually pick similar utilities for pvp, because there’s just some that make more sense than others. I usually try to pick something that ties in with traits and theme I’m looking for as a necro. I’ve very rarely use Corruption or Signet utils, because they don’t fit the couple specs I like to use the most. Between all the legends to choose from, there’s gotta be a few that strike your fancy even if you don’t in every situation use all of them.

To the OP I’ll just say, maybe it will be weird being completely locked in. I guess time will tell. Given we have access to 15 (18 if you count herald double benefit) utilities currently though, I don’t see your complaint as keeping the dev’s up at night.

On paper I would agree that the Rev looks rather underwhelming with the lack of utility choices, but in actual gameplay the class felt very adaptable.

First off, we get a weapon swap AND a utility swap that can be completely independent of one another. The issue I have with current classes is that I’m locked into a particular set of utilities into a fight. Sure, I can highly customize the 3 utilities I bring into the fight, but I’m at the mercy of cooldowns for the most part.

E.G. If I bring a PS Warrior I’m always going to end up bringing Banner of Strength/Discipline leaving me only 1 utility that I can actually slot out freely (without harming my “party duty”). On an Ele I’m bringing an Ice Bow and Glyph storm for the most part. Bring a Guard? Stab and Reflect duty. Etc.

On a PvE Rev, I’m on Boon duty, but with the additional boon duration I don’t necessarily need to camp Glint, and I mostly responsible for providing boons that are not already covered since I’m mostly aiding to extend everyone else’s boon output (which can be done regardless of Legend). Outside of those responsibilities I have 6 utilities to choose from (and can potential spam if needed).

To me that felt like the class offered more utility in combat, though outside of combat I was pulling out the same set of tricks.

While I understand what the two people above me are saying, I have to politely disagree. Rev might have 6 utilities they can use in combat, 2 heals, and 2 elites; but we also have 8 less utilities than every other class. On top of that, there are other classes that have access to a way higher number of skills in combat (elementalist, engineer) and I don’t see anyone complaining about them. It’s just how the class works, and almost every class has a different number of skills.

Specifically on the topic of Rev’s utility skills, I think there should be at least one extra option on each legend. Here’s a quick example of why it sucks at the moment. If I were to take Shiro into a dungeon for the quickness, I’m stuck with a heal skill, two utilities and an elite that I don’t really want. No other class would find themselves in this position. Who cares if we get more utilities in these situations, when we aren’t even going to use half of them anyway. I don’t care about the lack of racial skills, but I do think that there should be an extra skill per legend or some kind of legend-neutral class of utility skills.

I don’t know if I did a good job explaining my opinion here, but everything the OP said is on point.

But we get to use a sword and shield on a heavy class…….

I just want one extra utility per legend. Just like how each utility category on other professions has 4 skills each.

I most certainly would not object to getting extra Utilities available to swap out at my leisure, but I must also admit that I found the existing setup to work quite nicely. As someone above said, Revenants are not at the mercy of cooldowns, at least not so much as other classes. So even if there’s only one or two abilities that you’re actually using, the difference is that you DO in fact get to use them. One of my biggest qualms with nearly every profession is the often-gargantuan cooldowns rendering this or that ability nigh-useless in actual combat, simply because you only get to use it once per fight. Revenant felt far more adaptable and usable, to me, simply because of how often you could use your desired abilities.

Toolbox.9375:

I most certainly would not object to getting extra Utilities available to swap out at my leisure, but I must also admit that I found the existing setup to work quite nicely. As someone above said, Revenants are not at the mercy of cooldowns, at least not so much as other classes. So even if there’s only one or two abilities that you’re actually using, the difference is that you DO in fact get to use them. One of my biggest qualms with nearly every profession is the often-gargantuan cooldowns rendering this or that ability nigh-useless in actual combat, simply because you only get to use it once per fight. Revenant felt far more adaptable and usable, to me, simply because of how often you could use your desired abilities.

But again, Revenants don’t have massive cooldowns though that’s somewhat balanced by every skill they have using energy. Being able to switch between two legends does give this class some adaptability, but being stuck with the three set utilities of that legend takes away from that adaptability too. And I’m afraid that when people start learning to play against a Revenant we’re going to explode easily in PvP simply because our opponents always knows what utilities we have and what we don’t at any given time. What i’m trying to say is that Revenant is indeed adaptable and usable to a point, but the lack of utility options compared to every other class is extremely limiting imo.

I don’t think I’ll ever understand the hang up over counting skills. Professions are balanced around how many skills they have access to in combat. Revs can use 10 on the right side of their bar, Eles can use more, Engis can use a wide range. Engis always use kits because they are balanced around having those slots available to them. The count doesn’t matter.

What does matter is when my Engi doesn’t need the Bomb Kit for a ranged fight I can swap it for Elixir Gun. Or Elixir U. Or whatever I swap it to doesn’t matter the point is I never have to have dead slots on my skill bar. Revenant always will have dead slots on its skill bar. This is the issue many of us have.

I don’t want the Revenant to have 20 choices in each legend, that would be overkill and not the point. Rev doesn’t need to be all things at all times. What it does need is the option to not have dead skills on its bar.

caerulean.4837:

Rev might have 6 utilities they can use in combat, 2 heals, and 2 elites; but we also have 8 less utilities than every other class. On top of that, there are other classes that have access to a way higher number of skills in combat (elementalist, engineer) and I don’t see anyone complaining about them. It’s just how the class works, and almost every class has a different number of skills.

Because as an Ele I have no weapon swap but instead have these 4 different attunements whose skills have relatively high cooldowns thus promoting attunement swapping, and the attunements themselves are susceptible to chilling. Engi technically does get weapon swap through the use of kits, but that’s a utility slot that they have to give up; the associated toolbelt skill may or may not be worthwhile either. On top of that Engi’s have all of 3 base weapon combinations (rifle, p/p, p/sh).

caerulean.4837:

Here’s a quick example of why it sucks at the moment. If I were to take Shiro into a dungeon for the quickness, I’m stuck with a heal skill, two utilities and an elite that I don’t really want. No other class would find themselves in this position. Who cares if we get more utilities in these situations, when we aren’t even going to use half of them anyway.

Because in this particular case you don’t take Shiro for just quickness. The heal may not be great for instant recovery, but those daggers have surprisingly high damage values for being a 6 skill. You have an evade that removes movement impeding conditions, and you have a shadowstep that adds an unblockable feature to your next attacks. Impossible Odds also offers Superspeed which is a very useful feature to have in fights where mobility is desired. Jade Winds is a sort of minor “AoE deep freeze” that can be toggled fairly readily.

caerulean.4837:

And I’m afraid that when people start learning to play against a Revenant we’re going to explode easily in PvP simply because our opponents always knows what utilities we have and what we don’t at any given time.

They know what skills you have, but they don’t know the frequency of the skills. Going back to Shiro, I can tell your heal occurs overtime, you can evade and clear some conditions, you can gap close and chase me like a madman, quickness and superspeed can drop me fast, and that you can burst a PBAoE hard cc. Now, can I time how often you can do that? Only to an extent. I know that the longer time pass the more energy you have stocked up, but otherwise there’s still the variability of when and what will be used. Compared to a traditional cooldown based class where once a skill is popped there’s a finite amount of time before that skill becomes usable again.

Now that was just on Shiro. All the other Legends have moments where they shine. Some may get more time in the spotlight (coughGlintcough), there’s a time and a place for each Legend. On top of that the Rev’s Spec help to further define roles/builds more concretely than other classes.

I had concerns too, then I played Revenant and they mostly went away.

I could understand it if revenant had terrible or meh utilities like a lot of other classes but it doesn’t (mostly, there are a couple). Everything has a use somewhere and it all boils down to bringing the right legends for the job.

Additionally the ability to use a utility as often as needed so long as you have energy is a really great thing to have. I do hope Roy reevaluates some of the cool downs like on purifying essence and others don’t start getting cool downs because that truly would break the class.

The only time I can see it becoming a major issue is when playing a legend “because you really really like that legend” and don’t want to use another even if it’s more effective. In that case I would say this is not a class for you.

I still have some problems with the class, but the customizable legend is not one of them.
As long as every skill is useful and usable I’m fine. With recent changes on Jalis and Ventari, every single skill may be useful and worth.

We don’t have customization on single skills, but we have 10 of them compared to 5 of every other class.

warherox.7943:

I just want one extra utility per legend. Just like how each utility category on other professions has 4 skills each.

At this point I am fine with how revenant is right now. But I do find myself avoiding a skill or two most of the time. It would be nice to have at least 1 extra skill we can mix into bar instead of the set 3. Would make a for a lot of variety. But either way I’m content at this point. Just crossing fingers they change at least mistfire wolf to energy one of these days.

lower number of choices but higher number to chose. I think it’s balanced. Also because they have no cd, so 1 skill can be repeated and be worth like 5 skills.

Also some of them are way much useful in certain situations if you make the right legend pick and right micromanagement, if you expect to be a succesful revenant and just toggle Impossible Odds and then Embrace the Darkness then you’re missing out on a ton of options that the profession has to offer, it’s a hack of all trades master of none, glint is quite dynamic and adds a ton to the play and strategy of Revenant, the same goes for every stance, not as much as Glint but yeah you need to actually know the important stuff to make the most out of Rev, which I like a lot.