Guild Wars 2

DiogoSilva.7089:

What about this PvE-focused trait:

- If your target stays stationary for more than 3 seconds, they’ll take full torment damage (or close to full, like, 90%).

Or put that to 2 seconds to make it more viable in PvP as well, when combined with some CC-chaining.

Because players are always moving in pvp, it seems balanced for both modes. Makes torment not-useless versus bosses in PvE, while still requiring some CC play for normal PvP and PvE.

Wouldn’t the current change accomplish the same thing?

I’m still concerned no Norn should EVER take this profession. It bars them from ever assuming their totem forms. It turns them into spiritual cripples, forever cut off from the spirits. The entire notion is horrifying. It’s like Svanir all over again.

Revenants are the work of Jormag!!

Malchior.5732:

Wouldn’t the current change accomplish the same thing?

From a purely PvE DPS point of view, it would be better to gain 90-100% damage from torment after 3 seconds against immobile bosses that last 10+ seconds, than getting perma 75% damage. Also, my suggested change would demand more player skill and bring more counterplay opportunities in PvP, while the flat 75% damage would not.

That being said, I assume it may be easier to implement/ code a flat buff to a condition via traiting than adding in a conditional buff.

This still hasn’t fixed the problem of Inspiring Reinforcement sucking.

Give it AoE stab on cast, maybe 3 stacks for 5 seconds. Retain or increase the cast/cost (maybe about an extra 5 energy and 2 – 5 seconds). Extend the road to maybe 600 units and give it pulsing swiftness of 1 – 2 seconds.

I know everyone’s talking about Mallyx right now but I want to bring up Phase Traversal on Shiro. I’d much rather this be a ground targeted blink, even if that meant the distance would be reduced. A spammable 1200 range teleport to a target followed by a couple of unblockable attacks is admittedly a little insane. And imo a ground targeted version would give the revenant a little more ooc mobility outside of taking herald. Just a thought.

caerulean.4837:

I know everyone’s talking about Mallyx right now but I want to bring up Phase Traversal on Shiro. I’d much rather this be a ground targeted blink, even if that meant the distance would be reduced. A spammable 1200 range teleport to a target followed by a couple of unblockable attacks is admittedly a little insane. And imo a ground targeted version would give the revenant a little more ooc mobility outside of taking herald. Just a thought.

Wouldn’t that just make it more insane? As is, Phase Traversal is about chasing, but has less escape potential(unless you’re targeting a far-away mob in WvW). Your proposal just makes it really good in both scenarios. I think it’s fine right now.

Yeah that will boost the Revs mobility, especially out of combat mobility.

I myself prefer Phase Traversal as is.

Killyox.3950:

I myself prefer Phase Traversal as is.

^ Pretty much this. Mallyx’s UA is where you’re mobile GT comes from. Just wish Roy would push that to 900 range instead of 600.

What if Inspiring Reinforcement (which is in a terrible state currently) was changed to a rush forward of 600 units that breaks stun, while leaving a trail behind of stone that pulses stability for those who cross the path. This would give the caster 3 stacks stability for 6 seconds. The pulsing stability would be 1 stack with a duration of 3 seconds.
So basically:

• Damage removed
• Weakness Removed
• Stun Break added (possibly removed from the elite)
• Is now a rush/leap forward of 600 units (Somewhat same speed like Burning Speed of elementalist)
• Stability (3) for 6 seconds
• Stability (1) for 3 seconds pulsing on the trail
• Combo field remains a lightning field

Thoughts?

I wouldn’t want it as a leap/rush. We already have access to these and it’s not like we want to leap all over the place constantly or even move at all sometimes.

Killyox.3950:

I wouldn’t want it as a leap/rush. We already have access to these and it’s not like we want to leap all over the place constantly or even move at all sometimes.

Hm well, the only real rush forward is #5 staff. Except for that you would have mallyx, but I don’t see why you would combo Mallyx with Jalis since Glint is much better for that. So unless you would go with shiro, you don’t really have any decent mobility skill to leap/rush forward.

Anyway, something totally different I still want to point out is the fact that many traits are quite useless still:
Herald:

• Bolster Fortifications doesn’t fit with the herald healing at all so I don’t see why this is in the herald line. It pretty much reduces the healing gain by 33%. It’s a nice trait with ventari, so this could need a change.

Salvation:

• Disarming Riposte seems pretty useless and needs some serious icd-reduction (10sec or so) to be noticeable.
• Nourishing Roots needs it’s regen duration be increased to 3 seconds base or just changed to a -10% damage reduction when being near the tablet to up to 5 allies.
• Tranquil Benediction is not worth picking and would need might of 3 seconds added to it or a 1second duration protection or fury added to be worth.
• Eluding Nullification’s ICD is way too long and should be around 2 seconds to prevent people from double dodging, but still having that nice condition removal on dodge with certainty. Currently 10 sec is just way too random.

Retribution:

• Improved Aggression: Pve Trait, might be useful with HoT content? Currently isn’t useful as far as I’m concerned anywhere.
• Steadfast Rejuvenation is a pretty boring grandmaster trait and totally not impressive. Should get a buff in my opinion. Maybe +5 energy added to it or the healing increased/ AoE.

Invocation:

• Charged Mist is too hard to use imo. Rather have it that it gives might when you use a skill above 50 energy and not just when it drops below 50.
• Cruel Repercussion is a bit of a wierd trait for the revenant as you dont really have a hard single hitting skill besides maybe something on hammer or staff 2. Though even if you notice a skill has been negated, you already used the buff due the fast attacking of the revenant. I would rather have the buff apply 3 times 25% and maybe even have a lower ICD.

Devastation:

• Malicious Reprisal is just horrible since the icd is way too long and (havent tested this but thought by logic) if it procs with aegis its useless.
• Nefarious Momentum is kinda unnoticeable since you dont and cant really use many shiro stance skills. the might stacks per skill could be increased but I highly doubt if that will increase the quality of the trait.
• Dismantle Fortifications is not worth it compared to the other grandmasters in devastation. The only skill that reslly benifits from this trait is Surge of the Mist which is fairly easy to dodge and hard to hit all 9 times. My addition to this trait would be to gain 1-2 stacks of stability for 6 seconds when succesfully removing a stack of stability (5 sec icd). The current effect would still be without icd.

BlackDevil.9268:

Killyox.3950:

I wouldn’t want it as a leap/rush. We already have access to these and it’s not like we want to leap all over the place constantly or even move at all sometimes.

Hm well, the only real rush forward is #5 staff. Except for that you would have mallyx, but I don’t see why you would combo Mallyx with Jalis since Glint is much better for that. So unless you would go with shiro, you don’t really have any decent mobility skill to leap/rush forward.

Anyway, something totally different I still want to point out is the fact that many traits are quite useless still:
Herald:

• Bolster Fortifications doesn’t fit with the herald healing at all so I don’t see why this is in the herald line. It pretty much reduces the healing gain by 33%. It’s a nice trait with ventari, so this could need a change.

Salvation:

• Disarming Riposte seems pretty useless and needs some serious icd-reduction (10sec or so) to be noticeable.
• Nourishing Roots needs it’s regen duration be increased to 3 seconds base or just changed to a -10% damage reduction when being near the tablet to up to 5 allies.
• Tranquil Benediction is not worth picking and would need might of 3 seconds added to it or a 1second duration protection or fury added to be worth.
• Eluding Nullification’s ICD is way too long and should be around 2 seconds to prevent people from double dodging, but still having that nice condition removal on dodge with certainty. Currently 10 sec is just way too random.

Retribution:

• Improved Aggression: Pve Trait, might be useful with HoT content? Currently isn’t useful as far as I’m concerned anywhere.
• Steadfast Rejuvenation is a pretty boring grandmaster trait and totally not impressive. Should get a buff in my opinion. Maybe +5 energy added to it or the healing increased/ AoE.

Invocation:

• Charged Mist is too hard to use imo. Rather have it that it gives might when you use a skill above 50 energy and not just when it drops below 50.
• Cruel Repercussion is a bit of a wierd trait for the revenant as you dont really have a hard single hitting skill besides maybe something on hammer or staff 2. Though even if you notice a skill has been negated, you already used the buff due the fast attacking of the revenant. I would rather have the buff apply 3 times 25% and maybe even have a lower ICD.

Devastation:

• Malicious Reprisal is just horrible since the icd is way too long and (havent tested this but thought by logic) if it procs with aegis its useless.
• Nefarious Momentum is kinda unnoticeable since you dont and cant really use many shiro stance skills. the might stacks per skill could be increased but I highly doubt if that will increase the quality of the trait.
• Dismantle Fortifications is not worth it compared to the other grandmasters in devastation. The only skill that reslly benifits from this trait is Surge of the Mist which is fairly easy to dodge and hard to hit all 9 times. My addition to this trait would be to gain 1-2 stacks of stability for 6 seconds when succesfully removing a stack of stability (5 sec icd). The current effect would still be without icd.

Herald
Bolster Fortifications – it is actually very useful with Ventari’s Will. IT’s still OK in general to get protection when using heal since chances are that’s when you need it the most. It’s not that bad

Salvation
Eluding Nullification imo is fine.

Retribution
Steadfast Rejuvenation – no to every +energy suggestion as that would pigeonhole us. Besides that agreed that this is meg.

Invocation
Charged Mist – this would be decent if it were “when you use skill below threshold. Threshold 50”. As it is it’s laughable.

Cruel Repercussions – only somewhat useful for hammer I guess. Besides that it’s bad.

Agreed on the rest (being bit too weak)

I think you might wanna re-read the thing I said about ‘’Bolster Fortifications’‘. The protection nerfs 33% of your incomming healing and also has such short duration that it’s not useful after the healing. Conclusion: it doesn’t fit with the herald healing and therefor it shouldn’t be in this trait line. I never stated it was a bad trait.

BlackDevil.9268:

I think you might wanna re-read the thing I said about ‘’Bolster Fortifications’‘. The protection nerfs 33% of your incomming healing and also has such short duration that it’s not useful after the healing. Conclusion: it doesn’t fit with the herald healing and therefor it shouldn’t be in this trait line. I never stated it was a bad trait.

How does it nerf healing by 33% ? It doesn’t nerf anything. It gives 33% damage reduction to allies and it still heals the same amount as without the trait.

Not sure what are you getting at and where do you get -33% healing from. I think you misunderstand how the trait works or protection boon. It’s a straight up buff.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Sounds like someone just saw the Scrapper preview on thought “kitten , I want that too!”.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

I like it! Sign me up. I’m thinking that’ll be my new GM trait for Retribution. The Health trigger will need to be something different than some of the other on Health trigger traits if you ask me though. For example, Soothing Bastion would sort of override part of the new trait’s proc time.

Since that trait has issues with underwater, how will Vengeful Hammers skill work? I’ll be honest, I didn’t really test underwater this last one, so i’m not even sure if Jalis can be used there. *Note, that’s not to say I don’t care about underwater, I actually love it, just ran out of time to test things.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks for all of your hard work Roy!

Proccing Rite of the Great Dwarf sounds really cool, and I certainly agree that having some function to improve condition mitigation on the skill would really help too (e.g. reduced condition damage taken or reduced duration of incoming conditions).

I do have a little concern that traitlines could be too narrowly focused though. If Retribution only offers defense, then will it be useful to a build that isn’t tanky, or a build that isn’t running Jalis? In my opinion, the Salvation traitline suffers from this same idea – if I don’t want to heal, I will never run Salvation (to be fair, Salvation does have some non-healing traits, but they are generally pretty weak; that is a discussion for another time…). It seems that trait lines on other professions aren’t necessarily so narrowly focused, allowing them to be more versatile.

That and the weakness on hit for the current Reflexive Hammers trait allows it to be ‘defensive’ while still having offensive properties – so it simultaneously fits the trait line theme while also allowing for more build versatility. I actually really enjoy the Reflexive Hammers trait as is, and running Reflexive Hammers + Vengeful Hammers at the same time visually looks really cool to me. But I understand that the projectile collision with walls is a problem.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Personally I’m not a fan of any of the % health cast ability traits. If I want to cast a skill it’s on my hotbar and I can push the button myself. These often lack any degree of excitement for me when I see them in the trait line. I would much rather see something that gives % bonuses to toughness for the dwarf line than auto proc skill stuff…

This view likely comes from how I handle traits as a whole. I want passive bonuses, that improve my overall potential strength, but I look for the always on traits as opposed to the long cooldown proc skill traits.

Sondergaard.8469:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Personally I’m not a fan of any of the % health cast ability traits. If I want to cast a skill it’s on my hotbar and I can push the button myself. These often lack any degree of excitement for me when I see them in the trait line. I would much rather see something that gives % bonuses to toughness for the dwarf line than auto proc skill stuff…

This view likely comes from how I handle traits as a whole. I want passive bonuses, that improve my overall potential strength, but I look for the always on traits as opposed to the long cooldown proc skill traits.

My exact thought, the proposal is super good, but i always like more active gameplay.
I have to say that when i run similar traits i always keep track of the proc and play them in my favor. Example elix s on engi if i’m low hp i still go in for the stomp saving my active skill cuz i know i’ll proc the passive ;-)

Sondergaard.8469:

Personally I’m not a fan of any of the % health cast ability traits. If I want to cast a skill it’s on my hotbar and I can push the button myself. These often lack any degree of excitement for me when I see them in the trait line. I would much rather see something that gives % bonuses to toughness for the dwarf line than auto proc skill stuff…

This view likely comes from how I handle traits as a whole. I want passive bonuses, that improve my overall potential strength, but I look for the always on traits as opposed to the long cooldown proc skill traits.

This pretty well sums up my own take on the change as well.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Possibly at 25% health like the pre-spec patch Bark Skin from Rangers?

Sondergaard.8469:

This view likely comes from how I handle traits as a whole. I want passive bonuses, that improve my overall potential strength, but I look for the always on traits as opposed to the long cooldown proc skill traits.

I agree in that I generally prefer traits I can use all the time and very consistently.

I do like the idea for the RotGD trait though. I’d like it a lot more if we got the condition damage reduction all the time (I suppose you’d have to lower the percentage a bit) but either way, this’ll be a great replacement for the hammer. Thanks Roy.

warherox.7943:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Possibly at 25% health like the pre-spec patch Bark Skin from Rangers?

Problem with that trigger point is this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Bastion

They both will trigger at 25% health, meaning, you won’t get any use out of RotGD for a full 3 seconds of the block if you’ve also taken that trait too. No it need’s to be like 50% health so it wouldn’t conflict with that trait.

For those not liking the trait, just think, you could potentially double RotGD if you have Jalis. That’s freaking awesome!

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

You said Reflexive Hammers will be changed because projectiles don’t work underwater, but what about Vengeful Hammers? Are those going to get changed too or are they staying as projectiles?

As for the trait to buff Right of the Great Dwarf I think thats a great idea! I’m a tad worried it will proc at too low of health (10-20), as it doesn’t give damage immunity only partial reduction. But aside from that sounds great!

Roy Cronacher.1576:

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

I think you just said Revenants were supposed to be somewhat vulnerable to conditions.

I don’t think he means to make them invulnerable to conditions when using it, only to reduce their damage to you by like 20% or so.

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

No. I like the hammers, I like that they come out and do damage, I liked them most when they first came out and have liked them less and less each time they’ve been tweaked. I love the Rev so far, but stop messing with the hammers, that’s something you got right on the first pass.

Also, just in general, do not mess with above ground stuff “because underwater.” Nobody cares about underwater.

Still, it’s nice that you’re actually trying, unlike the team on Thief.

Hey Roy, I like the idea of the new trait, but I’d do a minor tweak to it since it feels like it’d be better if the trait applies to all Dwarf Stance skills. Something like “At X% health, you automatically cast Rite of the Great Dwarf. In addition, for Y secs after using a Dwarf Stance skill, any ally affected takes -20% damage from conditions.” And have it apply a unique buff called Dwarven Hardiness or something. Basically a good way to not put all the focus on RotGD, and let the player feel like their other skills are also a great way to mitigate conditions in addition to Jalis’ general tankiness. And obviously the ally effect would only be on the road skill and RotGD, while the others would only affect you, but it would still be pretty strong.

I want to like Retribution, I really do. The stability on dodge and damage reduction are rather nice, but I just can’t see giving up Devastation for it (and Invocation and Herald are even more vital) except for WvW and particular PvE fights where stability is crucial.

Just please leave us Steadfast Rejuvenation in Retribution at GM.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

The condi buff is an interesting concept, but I want to point out one thing Roy: All traits tied to legend skill use in the Revenant trait lines are associated with using ANY legend skill, not only the elite and so on. Furthermore, they are Master tier traits, compared to this one which is a grandmaster.

If I may be so bold, I would reduce the condition resistance bonus to 2.5s (half of the duration of the Rite of the Great Dwarf) but apply it to any Dwarf Legend skill you use. That said, I would probably add 5s IC to avoid spamming it with the Vengenceful Hammers (by turning em on and off all the time).

All for it. RotD has felt pretty weak since it ignored burning/conditions. Wouldn’t hurt to have more reasons to use Jalis in general. It does its job, but its never felt like a job I needed to do.

I don’t know if I like short-term condition resistance triggered on all Jalis skills … it just turns Jalis into a poorer version of Mallyx + Demonic Defiance. I prefer Roy’s original intention over this, which allows RotD to be used for strong, temporary condition damage reduction. Since it only lasts 5 seconds and costs a lot of energy, I could see the condition damage reduction being as high as 50%. The normal 20% we see on a few other skills would probably not be high enough for such a short-duration, expensive skill.

What about a grandmaster that makes RotGD instant cast and grants resistance and stability? If too OP then take away instant cast.

It would basically cover all the weaknesses of RotGD.

Rest in peace PvP Mallyxs Revenant. Pretty sad that you destroyed the unique copying of conditions. I guess too many people cried about Rev being op right? Well you should consider that people will learn how to counter such builds. In the beginning everything unknown is considered OP by usual players because they have no idea how to play against it.
That shouldnt be a reason to nerf mallyxs stance straight into the ground tho. is it? Im sad that mallyxs will be bad in pvp now and you are forced to take it if you dont wanna get instant rekt by conditions just because of the resistance.

Another point im worried about is that you cant kill D/D Eles anymore since you cant reflect the burning back and it takes away alot of dmg. When you wont be able to kill/decap D/D Eles anymore like you could before Revenant gonna be worthless.

I disagree completely with Reflexive Summon’s removal.

I actually take the retribution line for all of the on-dodge abilities because they synergize nicely with Shiro’s endurance+back-dodge skill (atm I’m planning on Devastation, Retribution, Herald) (specifically, I take the close quarters skill to get defense from ranged enemies,as they tend to be more “spammy” in their attacks (eg hylek, harpies), retaliatory evasion because of how much dodging I do, and reflexive summon to cause damage and weakness in case I do get hit between evade spam, between shiro skills and the sword, it results in a very dodge-y playstyle that gives the feel of a guy popping in and out of the mists constantly to “death of a thousand cuts” the enemy to death)

for me, the grandmaster traits are otherwise garbage, steadfast rejeuvenation is a pathetic heal, and one extra might if I get hit two seconds after dodging is nigh useless considering I’m going to be dodging to avoid damage.

of all the grandmaster traits, the hammer was the one trait that WASN’T crap, bonus damage is great, and the weakness it caused was nice in the cases I do get hit.

if you MUST mess this up, how about rolling Retaliatory Evasion into Unwavering Avoidance and putting Reflexive Summon in its place as a master trait?

please don’t neglect us who prefer to be defensive via avoidance like GW2 was designed around as opposed to face-tanking :<

and please PLEASE don’t try to change things because of underwater combat, nobody cares about underwater combat, there’s no water in PvP and the new zones are looking to have very little water either, we already have to suffer when underwater, don’t make us suffer on land because of it too.

TLDR: I hate Hate HATE the proposed change and it would mess up my avoidance based playstyle, there’s nothing wrong with letting people have a more offensive defense option via weakness instead of protection

edit: why not make reflexive summon into a sort of “reflexive retreat”, a PBAoE that pulses damage and weakness? that would fix the projectile problem but still allow for a more offensive defense option

Reflexive Retreat:
On hit, partially phase into the Mists, creating a small field around you that causes damage and weakness
Duration 10s
Radius 100
Damage 250
Weakness 1s

Personally, I’m also concerned about the legends moving towards being more specialised. In their original forms, the legends had a clear focus but, Ventari excepted, maintained some versatility: Jalis could be made offensive with Vengeful Hammers (including the reflexive hammer); Mallyx could work with a non-condition-oriented build on the basis that you would be hitting the enemy with nondamaging conditions and their own conditions thrown back at them while Embrace the Darkness buffs whatever stats the player has invested in (so you can make a straight DPS mallyx build with berserker, a tanky build with soldier, and so on); and Impossible Odds can be used to increase the rate of condition application with mace/axe. Changes since have been pushing the legends into being more pigeonholed: Vengeful Hammers is no longer really a damage option unless combined with Assassin’s Annihilation, while the changes to Mallyx have made him much more reliant on his own condition damage stat.

One thing I’d be curious about is whether Jalis can be used underwater, and whether an underwater equivalent to Vengeful Hammers could be made to give Reflexive Hammer an underwater use. I’d also be inclined to say that it’s not the end of the world for a trait to be less useful underwater: Reflexive Hammer would still be useful if you make sure you’re on the same horizontal plane as your target, and in a 3D environment, I don’t see it as a bad thing if an effect rewards orienting yourself correctly versus your opponent so the hammer hits them. Plenty of existing traits are worse off (there are, after all, whole skill groups that simply don’t work underwater, meaning that related traits, runes, and so on also don’t work).

With all that said, though, the proposed new trait does seem worthwhile. I would recommend making it trigger at 50%: 25% triggers tend to be things like Elixir S and Crystal Hibernation that you might not actually want going off automatically unless you’re in imminent danger of downing if it doesn’t go off. RotGD doesn’t have the downside of self-controlling yourself, and giving it an earlier trigger means that a) it doesn’t overlap with Crystal Hibernation as a previous poster noted; b) when it goes off, there’s less chance that the enemy is simply going to power through the damage reduction and kill you anyway, and c) being something that affects allies in the area, having a higher threshold means that it might be more likely to go off at a time that also assists your allies. In the bigger picture, I am concerned that it turns Jalis more into being the tank, the whole tank, and nothing but the tank, but putting that aside it seems like a decent option for a grandmaster trait.

Regarding the argument that all traits that affect legend skills affect all legend skills of a legend: Diabolic Inferno already breaks that rule. I think it’s fair to have the condition damage reduction only apply to RotGD: it makes sense that being turned into stone would make you more resistant to bleeding, poison and so on as well as straight damage. If having the condition damage reduction only apply to RotGD really is too narrow, you could make it so that all elite skills apply the condition damage reduction to allies within a certain area of the revenant.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

I like this idea. Just make sure the proc is instant and doesn’t cost energy.

Also, I think the gain might when hit under retal trait should make dwarf stance skills give 3 seconds of retal, since there isn’t enough to proc the trait consistently.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Gaaroth.2567:

Sondergaard.8469:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Personally I’m not a fan of any of the % health cast ability traits. If I want to cast a skill it’s on my hotbar and I can push the button myself. These often lack any degree of excitement for me when I see them in the trait line. I would much rather see something that gives % bonuses to toughness for the dwarf line than auto proc skill stuff…

This view likely comes from how I handle traits as a whole. I want passive bonuses, that improve my overall potential strength, but I look for the always on traits as opposed to the long cooldown proc skill traits.

My exact thought, the proposal is super good, but i always like more active gameplay.
I have to say that when i run similar traits i always keep track of the proc and play them in my favor. Example elix s on engi if i’m low hp i still go in for the stomp saving my active skill cuz i know i’ll proc the passive ;-)

Well the active part of it would be that RotGD would be upgraded naturally with the trait so that you can actively push it whenever you want for the benefit. The added proc would be a benefit if you didn’t necessarily want to take dwarf stance with the trait.

On skill use as a trigger for it I think would be weird because it would force a recharge when you maybe don’t want to use it, like engaging in a fight before damage is happening where as a % health trigger would help ensure you are under pressure when it goes off.

In this case i’m in favor, then
I agree on “rev needs a weakness” but honestly other classes do not have a condi weakness likenours atm…so at least a trait to help this is greately appreciated.
I agree we should play on evading things rather than facetank them but sometimes you simply can’t and this trait will help greately. I’d suggest the proc at 50% hp.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

I like the idea of making Rite of the Dwarf useful. To me the -20% condi duration/damage effect should be baseline for that skill, given the high energy use and the very low duration (sometimes I cast it and I don’t even get hit once, so it’s wasted most of the time).
I’m not against the proc on low health however, but Jalis needs some more love. Atm it’s not worth getting over Shiro, Mallyx, GLINT and not even Ventari.

Its main purpose is stability and condi cleanse in wvw. I think it needs something to become viable in pve over Shiro and Mallyx. Right now the road requires herald to be decent, the taunt should be more viable thanks to the energy cost reduction, the upkeep still has the “ground is not flat” problem and rite, while impressive on paper, is too short for 40 energy. While the cast time has been reduced, the skill is not instant, so it has to be used in advance, and not when you see an attack, risking to use it too early, so it’s already over when you need it.

All the other skills activated at low health are on something that gives blocks or invulnerability. Rite is not so strong at the moment.

Energy and cast time wise, Rite pales in comparison with Shield#5.
I won’t mind a cd, but an energy reduction or a duration increase (I’d prefer the latter).

However, we are seriously weak to conditions on power builds. Glint would love some condi cleanse.

EDIT: just noticed that this GM trait has not much sinergy with Glint Heal.

Kidel.2057:

EDIT: just noticed that this GM trait has not much sinergy with Glint Heal.

Which is also one of the reasons why it probably needs to proc at 50% health.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Reflexive summon was a fav trait of mine, especially for the animation but also for providing a damage option in the line when I only wanted moderate tankiness. Lack of underwater function isn’t much of a problem, eg traits like vicious lacerations are worthless underwater too, just write something in the tool tip so it doesn’t give a buggy impression. I hope the hammer trait stays, there are two other GM traits thst could be hit, esp the vengeance one.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey all,

The Reflexive Hammers trait in retribution is going to be changed after BWE3, before launch. Right now since it uses projectiles that hover around you, they currently don’t work underwater and I think it no longer really fits the line as that is more about damage, plus it muddies the FXs around the character when the actual hammers are around you.

Soooooo…. I wanted to throw out an idea I had about a new GM trait for retribution to place it and see what you all think. The trait would be more dwarf stance focused since we don’t have a dwarf stance specific trait.

• It would give you some way to proc Rite of the Great Dwarf like at some percent health trigger or something and then make Rite of the Great Dwarf (both proc and the skill) have reduced condition damage taken as well while allies have the buff.

Let me know what you think.

Reflexive summon was a fav trait of mine, especially for the animation but also for providing a damage option in the line when I only wanted moderate tankiness. Lack of underwater function isn’t much of a problem, eg traits like vicious lacerations are worthless underwater too, just write something in the tool tip so it doesn’t give a buggy impression. I hope the hammer trait stays, there are two other GM traits thst could be hit, esp the vengeance one.

I think the new trait idea with jalis elite could be really cool if applies at 50% hp etc. But I also agree the Empowering Vengeance is garbage (between the very limited retaliation and cd on trait…) and it should just be merged with Steadfast Rejuvenation. Then they could have the new jalis elite trait, the merged empower/steadfast and a third one that has some kind of damage potential like reflexive summon.

Maybe they could have it be like the engineers adaptive armor but change it to give increase in damage instead of armor. I mean isn’t the point of jalis to be up close and personal packing a punch? Cause so far the traits lead me to think all it can do is dodge and keep as far away from target as possible (eg. Close Quarters, Unwavering Avoidance). Plus the removal of the Redeeming Protection giving it a 45 second cd just makes it worse… First thing I think of with a dwarf is up in your face smacking you with a hammer, not keeping his distance shooting me like an elf. (I would imagine that’s why dwarves usually hate on elves cause they refuse to fight close combat).

With every new change to the retribution traitline I seem to be wanting to take it less and less. I really hope this doesn’t continue cause even the salvation traitline is starting to look good…

I have to say, I liked the hammer flying around, combined with the two from the skill. Tell me… does the skill that creates the two hammers, do they work underwater?

Morfedel.4165:

I have to say, I liked the hammer flying around, combined with the two from the skill. Tell me… does the skill that creates the two hammers, do they work underwater?

I didn’t have a chance to check with vengeful hammers last beta, will be doing it first thing next beta. But I kind of doubt it because they also count as projectiles, that’s the reason why they get destroyed on uneven ground/walls/basically anything except players.

I also loved the floating hammers trait (both the animation and the fact that it was actually offensive) and, although its animation may have been a bit too flashy, I think that wouldn’t be as much of a problem if it had a shorten duration (say, 3 seconds) while having its effect made stronger.

I’d rather have BOTH reflexive hammer and the new GM co-exist together.

Why not just merge this trait with the new weakness trait.

New trait:

• Dwarven Battle Training: This is a new master tier trait replacing redeeming protection. This trait provides a 25% chance on hit to weaken foes for 4 seconds with a 10 second recharge and decreases weakness’s effectiveness on you by 50%.

Remove the ‘’This trait provides a 25% chance on hit to weaken foes for 4 seconds with a 10 second recharge’‘, and merge the current trait into this trait so you have the current trait + ’’decreases weakness’s effectiveness on you by 50%.’’.

Edit: this would be a master trait so you actually have a fairly hard pick between 2 master traits in this trait line. It also allows you to both run the old reflexing hammers trait and the new RotGD trait.