Guild Wars 2

Venon Enhancement is one of the Major Adept traits in the Corruption line and does the following:

“When you apply torment, also apply poison. Poison lasts longer.

Poison (5s): 168 Damage, -33% Healing Effectiveness
Duration Increase: 50%"

I recently decided to approach the current Revenant issue from a different angle. Instead of trying to make a viable direct damage build, I opted for a condition damage build for niche usage in Fractals and Raids.

Despite the build being fun to play, I have been unable to find a way to come up with comparable DPS to competitor builds. The main cause of this, in my opinion, is the Revenant’s over ability to apply Torment (a relatively weak Condition that is reliant on movement) and under ability to apply Poison specifically, but potentially Burning as well.

At first glance, the above trait looks like a fantastic method of addressing this ‘imbalance’ and it could be, if not for the 20 second internal cooldown it suffers from. My question is this; why bother even giving Revenant a comparatively massive 50% Poison duration increase when, outside of the trait itself, Revenant only has a single innate terrestrial method of applying Poison i.e. 1 stack on every 3rd auto attack (assuming you don’t interrupt the chain)?

Now in sPvP and WvW, I can see how this might be considered balanced. The Poison acts as a covering condition to protect the Torment (which is much more effective in PvP) and is generally more effective in a PvP setting anyway due to the effect it has on healing (which is basically inconsequential in PvE).

While I think that Revenant would also fairly benefit from having additional methods of Poison application in general (to be in keeping with Venon Enhancement), I propose that this trait would make an excellent candidate for a split. It may be overpowered to remove the internal cooldown completely (due to how much Torment a Revenant can put out) but honestly, given the relatively weak Condition damage output that the Revenant is currently capable of, that may not even be enough!

Additionally, the Mace attack chain could be changed from:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison

to:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison – 1 stack Poison and 1 stack Torment

I would love to hear what other people think about this and whether or not there may be a better place to officially suggest this.

DUNSTAN.8529:

Despite the build being fun to play, I have been unable to find a way to come up with comparable DPS to competitor builds. The main cause of this, in my opinion, is the Revenant’s over ability to apply Torment (a relatively weak Condition that is reliant on movement) and under ability to apply Poison specifically, but potentially Burning as well.

Ignoring application bugs, and a range weapon you’ve nailed the issue from my perspective.

Condi Rev has good support for terrible conditions: torment and poison. Both are low damage, and the poison is low application. You’ll eventually notice that burning is pretty much all the damage and really only comes from 3 sources(DI, EB & SF) Yet we have no have no burning support.

DUNSTAN.8529:

Additionally, the Mace attack chain could be changed from:
1 stack Torment – 1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison
to:
1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison – 1 stack Poison and 1 stack Torment

I think that on 5 stack of torment ->1 burning on a 5sec ICD + 25% burn duration would be a million times more useful and reasonable. It would mean play around stacking up torment and rewarding for keeping it up. Our auto attack chain wouldn’t need to be changed. In addition give some counter play thought for when to cleanse the torment.

I am all for buffs to improve our dps, but I think the class in general needs a lot of love for our ground target skills which all seem to wiff on any kind of terrain difference between you and the target. Which is really sad because mace thematically is one of the funnest weapons I’ve used in a long time but its such a poor weapon because of the above issue.

Edited: removed some non relevant stuff.

DUNSTAN.8529:

Additionally, the Mace attack chain could be changed from:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison

to:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison – 1 stack Poison and 1 stack Torment

I would love to hear what other people think about this and whether or not there may be a better place to officially suggest this.

I disagree with this proposed change. Even though many of them do, I am not a fan of having autoattack chains apply condis or boons. Its just too convenient and requires no thought. Ideally, condis and boons would be removed from autoattack chains in general (with the possible exception of allowing each class to have 1 auto chain that is comprised of 3 skills apply a condi or boon on the third attack). To fix Rev’s lack of poison application, I would rather see other attacks/utility skills/traits changed to apply poison instead.

OriOri.8724:

DUNSTAN.8529:

Additionally, the Mace attack chain could be changed from:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison

to:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison – 1 stack Poison and 1 stack Torment

I would love to hear what other people think about this and whether or not there may be a better place to officially suggest this.

I disagree with this proposed change. Even though many of them do, I am not a fan of having autoattack chains apply condis or boons. Its just too convenient and requires no thought. Ideally, condis and boons would be removed from autoattack chains in general (with the possible exception of allowing each class to have 1 auto chain that is comprised of 3 skills apply a condi or boon on the third attack). To fix Rev’s lack of poison application, I would rather see other attacks/utility skills/traits changed to apply poison instead.

I agree with you to some extent and I’d like to see other skills applying conditions as well but in the case of the Revenant with it’s fixed utility skills, this would entail a huge overhaul. The fact is that the attack chain already applies conditions on every hit. I’m just suggesting a slight rework to said chain

Eval.2371:

DUNSTAN.8529:

Despite the build being fun to play, I have been unable to find a way to come up with comparable DPS to competitor builds. The main cause of this, in my opinion, is the Revenant’s over ability to apply Torment (a relatively weak Condition that is reliant on movement) and under ability to apply Poison specifically, but potentially Burning as well.

Ignoring application bugs, and a range weapon you’ve nailed the issue from my perspective.

Condi Rev has good support for terrible conditions: torment and poison. Both are low damage, and the poison is low application. You’ll eventually notice that burning is pretty much all the damage and really only comes from 3 sources(DI, EB & SF) Yet we have no have no burning support.

DUNSTAN.8529:

Additionally, the Mace attack chain could be changed from:
1 stack Torment – 1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison
to:
1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison – 1 stack Poison and 1 stack Torment

I think that on 5 stack of torment ->1 burning on a 5sec ICD + 25% burn duration would be a million times more useful and reasonable. It would mean play around stacking up torment and rewarding for keeping it up. In addition give some counter play thought for when to cleanse the torment.

I am all for buffs to improve our dps, but I think the class in general needs a lot of love for our ground target skills which all seem to wiff on any kind of terrain difference between you and the target. Which is really sad because mace thematically is one of the funnest weapons I’ve used in a long time but its such a poor weapon because of the above issue.

Edited: removed some non relevant stuff.

I’m in two minds about this. I think that it’s important for classes to remain thematically different and multiple classes already have good innate support for Burning. I think that the condition focus for Revenant should stay on Torment and Poison and that Burning should just be an added bonus. I used Smoldering sigils and am considering Malice sigils though to make the most of the, as you pointed out, relative high ability of the Revenant to apply Burning.

Sorry, inc wall of text.

In relation to what I posted in my previous post, I think something like:

When you strike a target that has the threshold of torment, apply poison.
Every 5stacks of torment -> applies 1 stack of 5sec poison
ICD 8 sec
+33% poison duration

Would be appropriate for venom enchantment. I realize I didn’t convey that I meant the trait instead of the auto attack chain.

I think the auto attack chain is fine, as the third part is aoe. I’d like it to function like precision strike on single targets. My biggest issue with the auto attack chain is how unforgiving the chain its self is to get off. If they made it more like thief staff auto attack for allowing us room between attacks to get something pressing off and then continue the chain (eg legend swap, or banish enchantment) it’d be a lot better as well.

DUNSTAN.8529:

I’m in two minds about this. I think that it’s important for classes to remain thematically different and multiple classes already have good innate support for Burning. I think that the condition focus for Revenant should stay on Torment and Poison and that Burning should just be an added bonus.

I do kinda agree with your sentiment. The issue with this is that poison and torment do not really complement each other being low damage and more utility focus conditions. I think the intent with burning was a way to force people to move and our way to force condi clears. In reality it ends up to being burning is our only way to burst or take targets down, as we don’t have the tools to win the battle of attrition making torment underwhelming in some respects and poison to be laughable.

I don’t see torment and poison becoming a relevant damage sources to rev until anet either basically hand out methods to apply poison and meaningful ways to sustain in fights. Basically we’d need to become the problem that is the rest of the condi classes, we need so much application that it wouldn’t matter if they cleansed it.

DUNSTAN.8529:

I used Smoldering sigils and am considering Malice sigils though to make the most of the, as you pointed out, relative high ability of the Revenant to apply Burning.

Just an aside, if your using any kind of amulet that has precision, I highly recommend a generosity sigil for the pseudo plague signet effect.

Malice is ok. Smoldering is really good. I would take an earth or an on swap sigil over malice.

In PvE though, you’re essentially only swapping to Staff to break so on-swap condition sigils probably aren’t appropriate. I actually think it’s not a bad idea to bring a Berserker Staff with Force or Air plus Paralyzation. Might look into generosity though.

I get what you’re saying about Torment and Poison but think back to the Necromancer. Until recently the powerhouse condition build. They relied primarily on Bleed and Poison and while, I know that Epidemic played a large part in their success, their individual condition dps was still very high so I think there is a precedent there. If this suggestion was to be taken on, I think it would just depend on the degree of how much Poison application is added. It does stack in intensity after all and it’s not like PvE mobs are in the habit of clearing conditions.

DUNSTAN.8529:

In PvE though, you’re essentially only swapping to Staff to break so on-swap condition sigils probably aren’t appropriate. I actually think it’s not a bad idea to bring a Berserker Staff with Force or Air plus Paralyzation. Might look into generosity though.

I get what you’re saying about Torment and Poison but think back to the Necromancer. Until recently the powerhouse condition build. They relied primarily on Bleed and Poison and while, I know that Epidemic played a large part in their success, their individual condition dps was still very high so I think there is a precedent there. If this suggestion was to be taken on, I think it would just depend on the degree of how much Poison application is added. It does stack in intensity after all and it’s not like PvE mobs are in the habit of clearing conditions.

Swap Legend proc sigils “on swap”

The game needs more tools of balance that let the game balance itself on the fly. New mechanics that could help solve problems that can’t be solved with the current properties of skills like recharges, activation times, damage and healing values.

For example:

• Cooldown reduction on hit.
  • When a skill reduces its cooldown on hit, staying in combat means triggering the skill more often, and missing or avoiding combat means taking longer for the skill to trigger. Since conditions allow players to deal damage and let it tick while they run around avoiding attacks, you can’t let players stack too many of them.
  • Give a skill or trait kitten reduction when hitting with the autoattack, and you make sure they can’t use the skill too often unless they stay in active combat.
• Background cooldown skill charges.
  • While there’s skills that produce stacking effects, and mantras do have charges, there’s no skills with a background cooldown for charges.
  • These require charges to be used, but the charges take much longer to recharge than the skill. If you let the charges accumulate, you can spam them a bit more within a short time, but you lose the skill for longer.
  • So these let you choose between bursting and sustain, without ever having both. The shorter skill recharge lets you use it more often, the longer charge recharge balances things out.
• Event-Triggered cooldown reduction
  • Right now we have a few effects that will recharge skills, like Improvisation, but no skills have recharges or cooldown reductions, which could be used to improve things, like making some skills, traits or upgrades have a bit of of a skill’s recharge reduces when an enemy is defeated, or when being affected by a condition, or whenever you are stunned. Imagine a stun breaker that gets 10% reduced recharge whenever you are stunned. Enemies use CC against you wisely, you can’t break stun. They mindlessly spam CC on you, they waste it because that skill recharges and you get a stun breaker.

There’s many other examples of new mechanics that could be used to solve several balance problems if we had them, by making things balance out on the fly.

In this case, with Venom Enhancement, it could be turned in the Revenant’s Mace-themed trait as they currently have none specifically for it. Something like this:

• Venom Enhancement.
  • 20s recharge.
  • When you apply torment, also apply poison. Poison lasts longer. Reduces recharge of Mace skills. This trait’s recharge is reduced by 5s whenever you hit an enemy with a mace attack.
  • Duration increase: 50%.
  • Recharge reduced: 20%
  • Trait cooldown reduced on hit: 5s.

Son in this example, every 4 attacks you do with the mace, the trait would trigger again and land another poison stack. Which means anyone dumb enough to stand on a Searing Fissure would get a few extra poison stacks as a reward the next time you hit them with any source of tormentm making mace much better at stacking poison.

Another example of this. Take Thief venoms. Right now they are ‘meh’. But, put the charges directly on the skill instead as effects so you can trigger each charge on demand, then make the background recharge of the charges reduce its cooldown on autoattack hit, and ding. you have a thief that can spam venoms while staying in combat, thus healing a bit more more often, but can’t use them too much if they spam them for bursts from stealth. You can have a cake or eat it, but can’t have both.

DUNSTAN.8529:

I get what you’re saying about Torment and Poison but think back to the Necromancer. Until recently the powerhouse condition build…

What makes necromancer a good condition class is that it many very large aoe radii applicators; that apply multiple stacks of conditions per skill, at range.

In contrast

Revenant has few applicators; many of them low stacks, small radius, and require you and your opponent to stay in melee range.

lucadiro.4519:

DUNSTAN.8529:

In PvE though, you’re essentially only swapping to Staff to break so on-swap condition sigils probably aren’t appropriate. I actually think it’s not a bad idea to bring a Berserker Staff with Force or Air plus Paralyzation. Might look into generosity though.

Swap Legend proc sigils “on swap”

this.

@MithranArkanere.8957 Totally agree this is another direction that hes not been explored that would make condi rev playable. I don’t think it’s a direction anet will take though. Which is unfortunate.

MithranArkanere.8957:

The game needs more tools of balance that let the game balance itself on the fly. New mechanics that could help solve problems that can’t be solved with the current properties of skills like recharges, activation times, damage and healing values.

For example:

• Cooldown reduction on hit.
  • When a skill reduces its cooldown on hit, staying in combat means triggering the skill more often, and missing or avoiding combat means taking longer for the skill to trigger. Since conditions allow players to deal damage and let it tick while they run around avoiding attacks, you can’t let players stack too many of them.
  • Give a skill or trait kitten reduction when hitting with the autoattack, and you make sure they can’t use the skill too often unless they stay in active combat.
• Background cooldown skill charges.
  • While there’s skills that produce stacking effects, and mantras do have charges, there’s no skills with a background cooldown for charges.
  • These require charges to be used, but the charges take much longer to recharge than the skill. If you let the charges accumulate, you can spam them a bit more within a short time, but you lose the skill for longer.
  • So these let you choose between bursting and sustain, without ever having both. The shorter skill recharge lets you use it more often, the longer charge recharge balances things out.
• Event-Triggered cooldown reduction
  • Right now we have a few effects that will recharge skills, like Improvisation, but no skills have recharges or cooldown reductions, which could be used to improve things, like making some skills, traits or upgrades have a bit of of a skill’s recharge reduces when an enemy is defeated, or when being affected by a condition, or whenever you are stunned. Imagine a stun breaker that gets 10% reduced recharge whenever you are stunned. Enemies use CC against you wisely, you can’t break stun. They mindlessly spam CC on you, they waste it because that skill recharges and you get a stun breaker.

There’s many other examples of new mechanics that could be used to solve several balance problems if we had them, by making things balance out on the fly.

In this case, with Venom Enhancement, it could be turned in the Revenant’s Mace-themed trait as they currently have none specifically for it. Something like this:

• Venom Enhancement.
  • 20s recharge.
  • When you apply torment, also apply poison. Poison lasts longer. Reduces recharge of Mace skills. This trait’s recharge is reduced by 5s whenever you hit an enemy with a mace attack.
  • Duration increase: 50%.
  • Recharge reduced: 20%
  • Trait cooldown reduced on hit: 5s.

Son in this example, every 4 attacks you do with the mace, the trait would trigger again and land another poison stack. Which means anyone dumb enough to stand on a Searing Fissure would get a few extra poison stacks as a reward the next time you hit them with any source of tormentm making mace much better at stacking poison.

---

Another example of this. Take Thief venoms. Right now they are ‘meh’. But, put the charges directly on the skill instead as effects so you can trigger each charge on demand, then make the background recharge of the charges reduce its cooldown on autoattack hit, and ding. you have a thief that can spam venoms while staying in combat, thus healing a bit more more often, but can’t use them too much if they spam them for bursts from stealth. You can have a cake or eat it, but can’t have both.

I really like where you’re coming from but I try to avoid making suggestions that require considerable mechanical changes which is why I presented this as a temporary “balance” change as opposed to a total overhaul. Your idea of turning Venom Enhancement into the Mace trait is inspired though. We can only hope…

DUNSTAN.8529:

OriOri.8724:

DUNSTAN.8529:

Additionally, the Mace attack chain could be changed from:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison

to:

1 stack Torment – 1 stack Poison – 1 stack Poison and 1 stack Torment

I would love to hear what other people think about this and whether or not there may be a better place to officially suggest this.

I disagree with this proposed change. Even though many of them do, I am not a fan of having autoattack chains apply condis or boons. Its just too convenient and requires no thought. Ideally, condis and boons would be removed from autoattack chains in general (with the possible exception of allowing each class to have 1 auto chain that is comprised of 3 skills apply a condi or boon on the third attack). To fix Rev’s lack of poison application, I would rather see other attacks/utility skills/traits changed to apply poison instead.

I agree with you to some extent and I’d like to see other skills applying conditions as well but in the case of the Revenant with it’s fixed utility skills, this would entail a huge overhaul. The fact is that the attack chain already applies conditions on every hit. I’m just suggesting a slight rework to said chain

Of course. I know that you aren’t proposing adding more condis to an auto chain, but as long as changes are being made I would rather the condi application is moved off on auto chains and onto other weapon skills as appropriate. Probably something along the lines of changing Searing Fissure to apply poison instead of burning, or changing Frigid Blitz on Axe to apply poison instead of chilled.

I don’t know Rev’s traits, so I don’t know if these would be bad changes to those skills. But, this is the type of change I would like to see for any class if condi application of weapon skills were changed. Moving stuff away from auto chains and onto other weapon skills so that they aren’t spammed quite as often as an auto chain would be.