Guild Wars 2

I’m seeing a common division in discussion with weapons regarding how they are limited. Currently, weapons have both an energy cost and a cooldown. However, I feel the majority of people think there needs to be one or the other but not both. I agree. However, there is no agreement on which should go away. There is also a third option, reduce CD or Energy cost but keep both in place. The following is a list of what I see as feasible options with this topic. Please feel free to suggest others.

The choices are:
1. Remove Cooldowns.
2. Remove Energy cost.
3. Keep both but reduce the cost of energy, reduce CD, or both.
4. Leave them how they are now.

So I invite you, implore Roy with why you think one of these options should work with how weapon skills are limited. Also, I’d love to see if Roy would input in his comments as well as to why weapons work like they do now in the first place.

I will start with my opinion:
I think cooldown should go. The energy cost makes more sense to the class and it’s dependency on energy itself. This also gives the player a choice, use utilities or use the weapon skills or a mix of both. Do I spam #3 Sword, or do I reserve some energy for Jalis heal and throw out my spiralling hammers? Do I forgo my weapon bar and use my entire Utility bar, switch to Shiro, then use half my weapon bar? Do I switch to Mallyx and just turn on Embrace the Darkness hitting with my Weapon skils and ride out the entire energy or do I use Unyielding Anguish, then switch to Ventair and summon the Tablet for group support and auto attack only with Hammer?

This kind of play gives the power of choice to the player, and invites more skillful play.

EDIT1: for clarity.

They got very low CD compared to other weapons. It’s fine imo. If they had no CD their cost would go up, don’t think it wouldn’t. IF energy went away then CD would go up.

I prefer it the way it is now. It’s not a class for everybody and not everyone has to like it and how it works. That’s fine, there are other classes to be played.

So it’s #4 for me as far as weapons go. I do say though that 5-0 costs need to be adjsuted (decreased) in some cases and legend swap 50% regen removed then.

I agree that doing what you suggest would result in a fun class however this would require much work tweaking then just removing the energy cost from weaponskills which I also think would work. The main issue right now is just energy in general and the amount of energy used per ability. Starting off with 50 energy is just silly first of all considering we have skills that cost that much so we could literally enter the fight with 0 energy if we so chose to use one of those said skills. Current energy regen is far too low as well we can’t react to crap in combat unless we’ve been using AA the whole time just waiting for something to happen. Having weapon skills cost energy makes the problem worse. No other class has to sacrifice their damage to use a utility. Utilities are essentially your “Oh kitten” buttons and the fact that we as Revs could literally remove our ability to hit said button just because we chose to do damage and participate in a game about combat puts us at a huge disadvantage from every other class. Rev is most like Thief when compared to the other classes. Not only can a Thief attack more then us with their initiative ,but they can also use their utilities at the cost of a simple cd and without sacrificing their ability to deal damage. If we can’t match that level of effectiveness we will never be viable.

3. Keep both but reduce the cost of one or both.
(or remove energy on SOME) is the only possible solution. Some ws require energy for the class to work and for legendswap to be meaningful.

I agree with Griffith, right now, i feel it really unfair for revenant to have to choose between weapon skills and utilities when no other class has to.
Only Thief has a system wich could look like this one, but the initiative apply only to weapon skills, wich make them choose if they want to use multiple different weapon skills or spam one, and let them free to use utilities when they need to.
Besides, putting only energy and no CD on weapon makes us Thief 2.0 but worst than them because of utility energy limitation.

3rd solution would be hard balancing work, so personnaly i prefere #2, we are playing GW2 after all, why would it be so bad to have the core weapon class mecanic?

What if the autoattack generated energy but the other skills kept their expenditure of energy? Or perhaps other skills that, when landed, rewards you with energy?

Thought i personally think it’s bad that we have to pick between using our utilities or our weaponskills, cause you can’t use both. You lose so much energy quickly when you start using both. Most of the time i end up autoattacking someone to death because i cant afford using anything else (mainly against condi classes, have to keep using pain absorption if you want to win, since it requires 35 energy and you get 5secs of resistance(when traited for it) you can kinda keep using it. But only if you just auto attack).

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

The choices are:
1. Remove Cooldowns.
2. Remove Energy cost.
3. Keep both but reduce the cost of one or both.
4. Leave them how they are now.

Most viable is 3, Removing CDs will make people hate on Revenants much more because they would just start spamming Sword 3 mindlessly when Staff 5 is way better… seriously though Removing CDs on weapons won’t fix it, lowering Legendswap CD would be viable but that would just promote sawping, using the most effective utility from a certain stance and repeat, removing energy costs on weapons is a viable option to as they already have CDs, leaving them how they are now? sure if they want Revenant to be the new core Necro (as in the most lackluster profession in the game), not that I have a problem with that but it surely would disappoint a lot of people.

I think that the cool downs shouldn’t exceed 15 seconds, since we need energy for our utilities also.
The only other thing I would do is add energy gain into the auto attacks.

oscuro.9720:

I think that the cool downs shouldn’t exceed 15 seconds, since we need energy for our utilities also.
The only other thing I would do is add energy gain into the auto attacks.

if you make AA +3 and other weaponskills -10, it’s like having AA at 0 and other weaponskills at -13 (well, not exactly the same since you gain energy).
Do that and people will just stop using weaponskills and legendswap. And both things have to be used.

Revenant = legendswap. That’s the class mechanic. It’s like F1 for necro.
I’ve seen a lot of topics trying to change that to make revenant like other classes (customizable utility skills, no energy on weaponskills and so on).
Those are other classes. If you want to improve revenant just try not to change the only different thing it has.

Kidel.2057:

Revenant = legendswap. That’s the class mechanic. It’s like F1 for necro.
I’ve seen a lot of topics trying to change that to make revenant like other classes (customizable utility skills, no energy on weaponskills and so on).
Those are other classes. If you want to improve revenant just try not to change the only different thing it has.

Customizable utility skill would be great, at least you would have to choose 3 out of 4 for a given legend that match you playstyle and tastes.
It’s not a problem of “making rev like the other classes”, it’s making Revenant a GW2 class and not a MOBA class.

if you get customizable skill sets then you don’t need legendswap+customizable legends.
The fact that you choose 2 legends and 10 skills is to make up for the fact that you can’t customize skills. That’s our trade.

At this point they should add 2 more base legends tho.

The problem is, Ventari as it stand is a niche legend only usable on big events where you can stand behind.
Jalis skills are buggy or useless. VH bugs in any non-flat ground and adds no defensive effect, FE is too costy and it’s effect is average at best, the road needs 2 seconds to trigger the stability, and the elite is an hyper long casting glorified protection used only for it’s stun break, some people even cancel it right after cast to use only the stun break…
Shiro’s utility compete too much with offensive weapon skills
The only legend imo that is well done is Mallyx, it has a clear role as a condi manager and boon striper, boon associated (resistance), clear condis (torment, confusion).

Other legends are all lacking something.

We can’t get happy with no customisation while Legends are in a state where they can’t have a clear role and a good energy managment flow.
Many people already pointed the low number of choices we can do as a Revenant, and the current legends utilites are certainly not making up for it.

I would love [CD but no energy cost] on weapon skills and [No CD but energy cost] on utility skills, just the opposite of Thief’s mechanism. The reason I do not think energy cost on weapon skills is a good idea is the Upkeep utility skills, you can currently only do weapon skill #1 while upkeeping a skill.

Kidel.2057:

Revenant = legendswap. .

So much this, that’s why I say that either the energy cost on weaponskills needs to go away and let the energy costs as they are now, reduce the costs on redundant/poor use skills such as Forced Engagement to half their current cost, or both that way you solve energy management problems arised and upkeeps can actually be used for a bit more than 3 seconds and won’t seem as much as a waste of energy.

Thanks for the input guys, great dialogue.

Although I still lean towards removing CDs, I am starting to think that maybe #3 might be a better option. Or at least a readjustment of sorts. Killyrox makes a great point on this if they remove one or the other.

Something else I noted in the posts is talk about AA giving energy back. I kind of agree with this. However, do Revenant’s currently have any type of energy generating skills or traits at all?

legendswap is literally instant energy generation.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Thanks for the input guys, great dialogue.

Although I still lean towards removing CDs, I am starting to think that maybe #3 might be a better option. Or at least a readjustment of sorts. Killyrox makes a great point on this if they remove one or the other.

Something else I noted in the posts is talk about AA giving energy back. I kind of agree with this. However, do Revenant’s currently have any type of energy generating skills or traits at all?

Nope no traits for energy generation, in GW there was an Elementalist elite called Ether Renewal, that gave you 10 pips of energy regen instead of the base 4 for the profession, that’s 1.5x energy regen, they could add to an invocation trait a when you land a critical hit you have 1.5x energy regeneration for 5 seconds with 5 sec ICD.

Kidel.2057:

legendswap is literally instant energy generation.

Technically it’s a reset, but if you swap and need to use 1-2 utilities you’re stuck with 20% energy for 3-5 seconds, and if you use weaponskills probably some more time, you could actually use the same principle as above and make a trait that gives 1.5x energy regen when you swap legends or that gives 1.5x energy regen if < 50% energy and another bonus if above 50% energy

Also, Heal skills (all of them) should have energy costs removed with such long cooldowns.

The only time I felt frustrated when I died on my Rev (besides an unexpected sniper spawn or when I failed at gliding) was when I didn’t have the 5 energy to heal when I wanted to and all my endurance was gone (no energy means no blocking either). The block energy cost is fine because of the low cooldowns right now.

Honestly, I’d like an option 5 where you can trade your energy for cooldown reduction to use the ability again in a shorter time frame otherwise, the ability has a “standard” cooldown timeframe. This then balances spamming one ability over and over by increasing energy costs but then it opens up the use of all of the Revenant abilities overall.

Yeah, I agree with healing skills consuming no energy. Healing is a panic button.
That’s way more wise then removing cost on ws.

I suggested this some where else but thought it could go here too. What if when you swap legends and have more than 50% energy, you have cool downs decrease by a certain percentage? Like, 1% for every 1 energy"lost" (or if that’s OP, then 3% for every 5% “lost”) when legend swapping. That way you could generate energy for that one big skill, or use it to make some of the other skill available quicker.

For what it’s worth, I think ‘weak’ revenant skills should be cooldowns while others could be buffed up and then with an energy attachment. For example, sword 3 doesn’t have an evade-it makes sense mechanically (you don’t want them to be unkillable with it) but logically it’s a bit weird-they’re teleporting around, they should be a total nightmare to hit with anything outside aoe.
If the cost was bumped up and it had evade, that could give revenant players something interesting to work with.

However, you could easily argue that would make what is already a potentially complicated class (weapon swap gives the class essentially as many skills as the elementalist) already that much more tricky.

I prefer a mixture of options (3) and (4). I don’t like (1) because if weapons skills are balanced by energy only, they can be spammed and may be nerfed. Also they could compete even more with utilities for our precious energy. I don’t like (2) because the energy cost really separates Revenant from the non-interactive “use all weapon cooldowns and then weapon swap” method that works well for other professions.

I propose a mixture of (3) and (4) because I think that some, but not all weapon skills may be too expensive. For example, the triggered skills (e.g. staff#2 and sword#4) cost 10 or 15 energy for each activation respectively, totalling 20 or 30 energy. This is too much. Many weapon skills cost only 5 or 10 energy and I think this is reasonable. Even 15 energy is fine, IMO, for some skills. Regardless of which method is used, energy costs on all weapon skills and utility skills should be balanced.

I do agree, however, that heal skills do not necessarily need an energy cost. Their use is not regulated by cooldown but by need, so the energy cost is unnecessary with them.

2 would be very beneficial given each legend are very niche in offense, condi, heal/cleanse or stun break, but probably so good that players will stop swapping legends unless they’re forced to.

In this case best one is 3, reduce energy cost for weapon by 10% (mainly affect high energy cost ones) and, importantly, utility skills by around 20%. Most utilities have 35 or more energy, making it difficult to chain weapon skills and utility skills without hoarding energy beforehand. You also won’t have much chance to hoard those energy when you’re relying on energy to survive or push people to defensive in PvP.

The high demand in utilities energy means majority of scenarios you’ll use 1 utility with 2-3 weapon skills then you’re left with no energy for utility in the next >5s (depending on your energy) or swap legend, but press F1 early can can mean death if your alternative legend has no stun break or condi removal/resistance etc. This makes revenant both very vulnerable and offensive-less against opponent who can sustain well, which just so happen to be majority of PvP metas.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

The high demand in utilities energy means majority of scenarios you’ll use 1 utility with 2-3 weapon skills then you’re left with no energy for utility in the next >5s (depending on your energy) or swap legend, but press F1 early can can mean death if your alternative legend has no stun break or condi removal/resistance etc. This makes revenant both very vulnerable and offensive-less against opponent who can sustain well, which just so happen to be majority of PvP metas.

This right here!!! I don’t get how people don’t understand this. Just swapping to another Legend when you need energy is no solution if you need that energy for abilities provided by the Legend you just switched from how many times do I have to say it. I love all the people that speak for the devs like they know their exact design behind Legend Swapping. "Oh they totally wanted us to have to Legend Swap on cooldown guys. " how the hell do you know what they wanted? It is just as possible that they just wanted our class to be versatile and not switch at all unless circumstances arose during a fight that caused us to need a skill set focused on something else ex. I’m doing a 1v1 with Shiro and opponents teammate shows up guess I should switch to Jalis and bunker up a bit. Some of you people just straight make stuff up and its clear you want a class catered to you and not what would actually improve the class.

Legendswap is not meant as a solution (my god, that’s dense), it’s the main class mechanic. They made legendswap the only fast source of energy so that you use it when you can’t use weaponskills anymore (and that’s why weaponskills have energy cost).
Having you unable to use weaponskill is a punishment policy for having used too many skills and/or no legendswap.

I agree that skills need a reduced cost, but if you’re unable to use the class mechanic then it’s your fault.

If energy is so easy to manage that you can camp a legend without legendswapping then it means that you have 10 utility skills (double compared to other classes) and you’re NOT paying any drawback for tham.

The mechanic is fine, maybe some skills need a cost reduction.
People just want an easy skillspam class, I hope they don’t get it.

Kidel.2057:

Legendswap is not meant as a solution (my god, that’s dense), it’s the main class mechanic. They made legendswap the only fast source of energy so that you use it when you can’t use weaponskills anymore (and that’s why weaponskills have energy cost).
Having you unable to use weaponskill is a punishment policy for having used too many skills and/or no legendswap.

I agree that skills need a reduced cost, but if you’re unable to use the class mechanic then it’s your fault.

If energy is so easy to manage that you can camp a legend without legendswapping then it means that you have 10 utility skills (double compared to other classes) and you’re NOT paying any drawback for tham.

If they intended for Legend Swapping to be the main source of energy regen then why did they make every Legend act as a stand alone and cater to completely different playstyles? You really think people doing speed clears in dungeons are going to be Legend Swapping? No they aren’t. They are simply going to combine the highest DPS weapon with the highest DPS Legend and sit in it. Why switch to Jalis, Mallyx, or Ventari when it would be a DPS loss? 50 Energy for a Legend that you lose DPS on for 5 sec. Most of your damage comes from WS anyway which do cost energy ,but generally such a small amount that they don’t do much more then pause your current regeneration so you won’t need to swap to use them.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/revenant-the-master-of-the-mists/

Let’s start with the basics. A revenant can select from a pool of legends—epic characters from the past that you can invoke power from—and slot two different legends at a time. With this constant connection to the Mists, you’ll always have one active legend and one inactive legend. The current active legend will determine the skills on the right half of your skill bar. It’s similar to weapon swapping, but instead it affects your healing, utility, and elite skills. Not only will the legend you select determine your skills, but you’ll have an energy bar tied to your currently invoked legend.
This energy bar is a new resource that the revenant relies on in order to use skills. Some skills will have a low energy cost, allowing you to use them more often, while others have a large cost with a very large payoff. When you invoke a new legend, you’ll begin at half energy and generate more energy over time. This creates a push-and-pull feel with the energy that you manage as you use your skills.

by Roy Cronacher on February 18, 2015

Is that enough to convince you Griffith?

It should be viable to sit in a single Legend most of the time, with the right build. It should also be viable to swap Legends frequently (e.g. for increased energy and for Invocation traitline on-swap effects). I think it is too limiting to claim that Revenant is only meant to be played one way.

This means that it should be possible to use a single Legend and not be energy-starved all the time. At the same time, builds that swap Legends frequently should also be rewarded for it since they are giving up reliable access to the utility skills they want when they want them.

Revenant right now is lacking in build diversity IMO, so it is very important that both playstyles are viable and balanced.

If you want a class that is able to spam 10 diluted skills go ahead. I prefer a class that is a little bit hard to use, that forces you to make choice, but those choices are meaningful.

Kidel.2057:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/revenant-the-master-of-the-mists/

Let’s start with the basics. A revenant can select from a pool of legends—epic characters from the past that you can invoke power from—and slot two different legends at a time. With this constant connection to the Mists, you’ll always have one active legend and one inactive legend. The current active legend will determine the skills on the right half of your skill bar. It’s similar to weapon swapping, but instead it affects your healing, utility, and elite skills. Not only will the legend you select determine your skills, but you’ll have an energy bar tied to your currently invoked legend.
This energy bar is a new resource that the revenant relies on in order to use skills. Some skills will have a low energy cost, allowing you to use them more often, while others have a large cost with a very large payoff. When you invoke a new legend, you’ll begin at half energy and generate more energy over time. This creates a push-and-pull feel with the energy that you manage as you use your skills.

by Roy Cronacher on February 18, 2015

Is that enough to convince you Griffith?

Where does he say that Legend Swapping is the primary source of energy regen? Don’t see it…

it’s the only mentioned source of energy aside from the slow pips.
Again, if you want a skill spammer where energy management is trivial, go ahead.

Kidel.2057:

If you want a class that is able to spam 10 diluted skills go ahead. I prefer a class that is a little bit hard to use, that forces you to make choice, but those choices are meaningful.

Yeah you know what else needs to happen in that scenario said high skill cap class actually needs to be rewarding. Why play a class that’s hard to play when played at its highest tier it only achieves mediocrity? Oh wait not even mediocrity the worst DPS out of every class.

Griffith.7238:

Kidel.2057:

If you want a class that is able to spam 10 diluted skills go ahead. I prefer a class that is a little bit hard to use, that forces you to make choice, but those choices are meaningful.

Yeah you know what else needs to happen in that scenario said high skill cap class actually needs to be rewarding. Why play a class that’s hard to play when played at its highest tier it only achieves mediocrity? Oh wait not even mediocrity the worst DPS out of every class.

Sure, and as I said before, if you want an easy class, maybe you shouldn’t bother with Revenant.
Revenant is supposed to be a nostalgia class for GW1 players. Sorry if it doesn’t suit you, and please avoid postspamming.

Kidel.2057:

Griffith.7238:

Kidel.2057:

If you want a class that is able to spam 10 diluted skills go ahead. I prefer a class that is a little bit hard to use, that forces you to make choice, but those choices are meaningful.

Yeah you know what else needs to happen in that scenario said high skill cap class actually needs to be rewarding. Why play a class that’s hard to play when played at its highest tier it only achieves mediocrity? Oh wait not even mediocrity the worst DPS out of every class.

Sure, and as I said before, if you want an easy class, maybe you shouldn’t bother with Revenant.
Revenant is supposed to be a nostalgia class for GW1 players. Sorry if it doesn’t suit you, and please avoid postspamming.

Oh I guess seeing my name as much as your own means you aren’t doing the same? That hypocrisy though. You must be amazing at w/e class it is you play since they are all spam heavy face rolls.

I’m not the one doing 2-3 posts in a row everytime. Use the edit button.

Kidel.2057:

Legendswap is not meant as a solution (my god, that’s dense), it’s the main class mechanic. They made legendswap the only fast source of energy so that you use it when you can’t use weaponskills anymore (and that’s why weaponskills have energy cost).
Having you unable to use weaponskill is a punishment policy for having used too many skills and/or no legendswap.

I agree that skills need a reduced cost, but if you’re unable to use the class mechanic then it’s your fault.

If energy is so easy to manage that you can camp a legend without legendswapping then it means that you have 10 utility skills (double compared to other classes) and you’re NOT paying any drawback for tham.

I do not agree with your vision of legend swap as a mecanic.
Utilites are here to adapt to situations, that’s the point of utility skill. The legend swapping was at first a way to switch from, for exemple, full offense to full defense, be it dps offense, condi offense, tanky defense, or support defense DURING the fight, not ooc.
Any gardian would be glad to have a full self defense build + a full burst build during a fight, that’s the point of Revenant.

Strangely, you find it unfair to have 10 ws +10 utilities (20), when :
Elementalist has 20 + 5 skills (25),
Engineer has 5 ws + 5 utilities + 5 beltskills (15~20~25 with kits depending on how much are used.)

Weapons are a different part of the equation, don’t forget at first we had no weapon swapping, that was our main drawback. The added weapon swap made more mess than people seem to think.
Plus you are considering that weapon skills and utilities share the same goal when it’s certainly not the case.
They added weapon swap because they did a mistake making weapons double the role legends have. Weapons should have been swiss knives because of the no weapon swap, but they designed it differently, because it was more fun and created the lack of versatility problem.

it’s not “my” vision.
and please, don’t compare it to ele, nobody wants revenant to be a skillspammer with plain cooldown on skills.

Kidel.2057:

it’s not “my” vision.

Oh but it is.

Mournilg.4870:

Kidel.2057:

Legendswap is not meant as a solution (my god, that’s dense), it’s the main class mechanic. They made legendswap the only fast source of energy so that you use it when you can’t use weaponskills anymore (and that’s why weaponskills have energy cost).
Having you unable to use weaponskill is a punishment policy for having used too many skills and/or no legendswap.

I agree that skills need a reduced cost, but if you’re unable to use the class mechanic then it’s your fault.

If energy is so easy to manage that you can camp a legend without legendswapping then it means that you have 10 utility skills (double compared to other classes) and you’re NOT paying any drawback for tham.

I do not agree with your vision of legend swap as a mecanic.
Utilites are here to adapt to situations, that’s the point of utility skill. The legend swapping was at first a way to switch from, for exemple, full offense to full defense, be it dps offense, condi offense, tanky defense, or support defense DURING the fight, not ooc.
Any gardian would be glad to have a full self defense build + a full burst build during a fight, that’s the point of Revenant.

Strangely, you find it unfair to have 10 ws +10 utilities (20), when :
Elementalist has 20 + 5 skills (25),
Engineer has 5 ws + 5 utilities + 5 beltskills (15~20~25 with kits depending on how much are used.)

Weapons are a different part of the equation, don’t forget at first we had no weapon swapping, that was our main drawback. The added weapon swap made more mess than people seem to think.
Plus you are considering that weapon skills and utilities share the same goal when it’s certainly not the case.
They added weapon swap because they did a mistake making weapons double the role legends have. Weapons should have been swiss knives because of the no weapon swap, but they designed it differently, because it was more fun and created the lack of versatility problem.

This is honestly what I think when I think of the way the current Legends are. They are all for different things. If I’m doing power based damage ,but need energy to continue to do power based damage I really have to Legend Swap to a Legend geared for condi based damage just to get that energy back. Seems quite counter intuitive to me.

Seems to be they wanted to make Rev’s one of if not the most versatile classes in the game ,but in their attempt to keep us from being overpowered they couldn’t even make us viable.

Griffith.7238:

Kidel.2057:

it’s not “my” vision.

Oh but it is.

Sure, I decided to add 50% energy on legendswap. It was all my idea

Honestly I dont think removing the energy cost is a good idea. Having an energy cost means they can have impactful skills on shorter CDs (or they said something of the like in the first revenant reveal back when). I dont wanna be that guy but I think people are just plain outright playing Revenant wrong. I never had an issue with being out of energy for my weapon or heal skills. The ONLY time this has happened was right after using an upkeep skill (usually shiro’s, and honestly that skill’s energy drain needs to be toned down for what it does)

It was just an idea, not a good one sure, but an idea (No offense Griffith ^^)

If you used half the energy you spend criticising each other trying to propose different things we could give Roy even more possibilities.
Right now, it’s just i agree/i don’t and it’s not constructive or productive.

Let’s make it this way :
Tell wich case you want to explore and add suggestions. Keep your personnal taste aside and rise only real game breaking problems.

Case 1 : keep energy on weapons + CDs
Case 2 : CD’s only on weapons

In both cases, tell us how you would balance things, energy costs, cds and all. That would be interesting.

Revenant is a mix bag of problems right now. I normally wouldn’t complain about “energy are so high that you can only use one utility each time” if you can swap legend and maintain the momentum or survival. But each legend are so specialised in what they do they sometimes lack certain essentials for survival. Just some examples, you have Mallyx and Ventari that lack stun breaks at all, you have Shiro that lacks DoT clears and 35 energy for stun break and you have Jalis with alright 3 condi clear on long 30s CD heal and 40 energy for stun break.

Having only enough energy to use only 1 utility from each legend each time is definitely not enough for revenant to cope with condi and stun pressure from current PvP. And its very naive to think 10s CD legend swap and “perfect rotation of legends” can justify its energy cost, when PvP is all about unpredictability from you and opponent.

No one is stupid and demanding a spammable class, but currently a single use of stun break or condi clear will drain that legend of any offensive and defensive drive. What if you just used a legend swap when you’re stunned? What if your next legend has no condi clear? Which legend can reliably handle engi and necromancer, who have both CC and condition pressure at the same time?

https://youtu.be/MfYvmHyqumA?t=20m29s
20:29 is what I was looking for, but they mention it also earlier if you care.

They want you to use the power of the legend until it’s over, so that when you legendswap you “feel” you are invoking the power of the legends to do stuff.

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Honestly I dont think removing the energy cost is a good idea. Having an energy cost means they can have impactful skills on shorter CDs (or they said something of the like in the first revenant reveal back when). I dont wanna be that guy but I think people are just plain outright playing Revenant wrong. I never had an issue with being out of energy for my weapon or heal skills. The ONLY time this has happened was right after using an upkeep skill (usually shiro’s, and honestly that skill’s energy drain needs to be toned down for what it does)

The problem is they said this yes ,but in reality our cds aren’t any lower then other classes when it comes to weapon skills and they still don’t do as much damage. Or have utility tied into them like Blinds, Evades, Etc.

Hmmm, some good points for all sides made in here.

Just wanted to point out one thing though, I’m seeing some posters worrying about spamming skills, but you can only spam so much before you run out of energy, and not only that, often doing that will leave your Revenant vulnerable. Do you burst all of your energy just to have what you did blocked or dodged and then bursted down yourself? Or do you leave some for your heal skill or another utility? There is a certain high risk, high reward in that type of system. Look at Thief weapon skills for example. You can certainly burst your initiative out but then you won’t have any left for the escape if you need it. In fact, it’s commonly known that if you spam 1 or 2 of your skills, you are actually going to end up nailing your own coffin lid. You have to know when a good time to burst that initative out and when to save it. Removing CDs on all skills will serve a similar gameplay, but certainly not the same. However, the gameplay will be very skillful in play.

Also noted, this topic is also touching on another very much related subject, which is energy cost/management. This is also probably an underlining problem.

Griffith.7238:

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Honestly I dont think removing the energy cost is a good idea. Having an energy cost means they can have impactful skills on shorter CDs (or they said something of the like in the first revenant reveal back when). I dont wanna be that guy but I think people are just plain outright playing Revenant wrong. I never had an issue with being out of energy for my weapon or heal skills. The ONLY time this has happened was right after using an upkeep skill (usually shiro’s, and honestly that skill’s energy drain needs to be toned down for what it does)

The problem is they said this yes ,but in reality our cds aren’t any lower then other classes when it comes to weapon skills and they still don’t do as much damage. Or have utility tied into them like Blinds, Evades, Etc.

Isn’t that resolved just by lowering energy cost on some skills and increasing the effectiveness of others? Why do you want to get rid of the class mechanic?
The only skill that should cost 0 energy is probably the healing one.

Kidel.2057:

Griffith.7238:

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Honestly I dont think removing the energy cost is a good idea. Having an energy cost means they can have impactful skills on shorter CDs (or they said something of the like in the first revenant reveal back when). I dont wanna be that guy but I think people are just plain outright playing Revenant wrong. I never had an issue with being out of energy for my weapon or heal skills. The ONLY time this has happened was right after using an upkeep skill (usually shiro’s, and honestly that skill’s energy drain needs to be toned down for what it does)

The problem is they said this yes ,but in reality our cds aren’t any lower then other classes when it comes to weapon skills and they still don’t do as much damage. Or have utility tied into them like Blinds, Evades, Etc.

Isn’t that resolved just by lowering energy cost on some skills and increasing the effectiveness of others? Why do you want to get rid of the class mechanic?
The only skill that should cost 0 energy is probably the healing one.

He doesn’t want to “get rid of it”. Only on weapon skills.

And i agree on heals with 0 energy. On the contrary of GW1 we can’t count on others for healing.

If they lowered energy costs on utilities, it would be fine too even with energy on ws.
As Kidel said, ws at worst delay you energy gain, they don’t really empty your bar.
Right now, too much skills be it weapon skills or utilities are too limited in what they do for the cost they have.

For exemple, Jalis Vengefull Hammers besides it’s buggy collisions, serves no purpose for defense, if they added some protection or retal on it, then i know why i would keep it’s upkeep cost, right now AoE damages is not something Revenant lacks.
Forced engagment cost as much as Jalis elite, i can’t see any justificaiton for it. Someone said it would be cool to divide the effect in Taunt first, then after taunt is over, the slow. That would be cool, but still doesn’t justify 50 energy.

We could detail every legends skills and see what everyone thinks of it’s effect/cost.