Guild Wars 2

Alright so, it seems like jalis really isnt in a good state right now, 3 out of 5 of its abilities have cds and glint beats in every way. Here are just some suggestions to make it more viable

Soothing stone* Increase condis removed to 5 please, rev doesnt really have mich condi cleanse and if this removed 5 condis then that would be great

Inspiring Reinforcement Seriously just remove the cd, its way to weak for a 10 sec cd and rev has plenty of other ways to get stability and make weakness. Or if cd isnt gonna be removed please an immbolize or at least cripple

Forced engagement this ability is fine, no big changes needed

Vengeful hammers This ability is too weak and really useless, increase the dps done or at least healing done

Rite of The great dwarf Please lower the cast time, its way to high and this ability should either, remove 2 condis or grant some resistance, if this is done then the cast time can stay.

Well this is all i have for now, if you guys want to please add more suggestions so roy can hopefully see this and listen to us. Overall jallis was fun to play as, but really felt too weak

I agree with you that Soothing stone should remove more Condis

Inspiring Reinforcements needs a lot more done to it then removing it’s CD. It needs to be larger, build faster and tick longer Stabs.

Forced Engagement is currently one of the more underwhelming utilities we have. A lot more effort needs to go into this skill, which has an entire trait dedicated to it, to make it something worth the 30 energy it demands. Unfortunately, this starts to cause problems with PVP balancing and that is where the crux of our problem is.

Vengeful Hammers is not a DPS skill. It is a DR skill with mild sustain added in. This is in my humble opinion, the strongest skill in Jalis. Weak and Useless are two things this skill is not.

I concur that Rite needs a lower cast time. the DR that comes from this works on both direct and Condi damage. This is also a group wide skill.

While I agree that Jalis is in need of some help, the “Tanky” feeling of Jalis between Hammers and Rite is solid. We just need to get FE and IR built up to match them.

Well as i said feel free to correct me if i said anything wrong or not needed, but vengeful hammers should really have the extra healing added to it, it just feels to weak, though rite should add some condi removal, though.

I agree with most of what Sarif said. I have come to terms with the a fact that Forced Engagement probably isn’t going to get any other changes because of PvP balance. I still think the cost is high and it is very situational, but I can live with it.

The skill that I think needs the most help is inspiring reinforcement, which has been discussed at length by myself and others. The heal is fine and the elite is ok, though I still seems in a very strange spot as a stun break with a long cast time. Some have argued it should be longer, but I’d rather just ditch the cast time.

Forced could use it slow affect to be increased up to 4 seconds. Main thing it needs is the projectile speed increase tho. Imo if Jalis was build around retal and slow he would be quite solid. Espesially slow as it drastically kitten everyone over.

Healing on stone is far too low along with too high casttime btw.

Inspiring Reinforcement- Make it break stun and give stability immediately on use. While on road pulse retaliation. Keep the cooldown.

Forced engagement just needs projectile speed.

Vengeful hammers This ability is by far the best ability jalis has. The only downside is that it gets destroyed by walls/uneven ground. (to the point I would call it a bug but apparently its supposed to do that…..)

Rite of The great dwarf – Remove stunbreak (give to inspiring reinforcement). The case time feels fine, but I think the duration needs to be bumped up to 7-8 seconds instead of 5. (and no it wouldn’t be op because it’s not a group invul, its just a over-glorified group protection)

Coolguy.8702:

Alright so, it seems like jalis really isnt in a good state right now, 3 out of 5 of its abilities have cds and glint beats in every way. Here are just some suggestions to make it more viable

Soothing stone* Increase condis removed to 5 please, rev doesnt really have mich condi cleanse and if this removed 5 condis then that would be great

Inspiring Reinforcement Seriously just remove the cd, its way to weak for a 10 sec cd and rev has plenty of other ways to get stability and make weakness. Or if cd isnt gonna be removed please an immbolize or at least cripple

Forced engagement this ability is fine, no big changes needed

Vengeful hammers This ability is too weak and really useless, increase the dps done or at least healing done

Rite of The great dwarf Please lower the cast time, its way to high and this ability should either, remove 2 condis or grant some resistance, if this is done then the cast time can stay.

Well this is all i have for now, if you guys want to please add more suggestions so roy can hopefully see this and listen to us. Overall jallis was fun to play as, but really felt too weak

Not the biggest fan of Jalis in it’s current iteration. Rev’s actually have little stability access. Dodge roll = one, the other is inspiring reinforcement. That’s it.

• Inspiring Reinforcement – increase stab to 3s per pulse. Increase weakness to 10s (one off, no pulse).

• Forced Engagement – Reduce energy cost to 30, add the stun break to this, instant cast

• Vengeful Hammers – easily the best ability on Jalis, happy with it as is for now. Fix break on walls bug.

• Rite of the Great Dwarf – At the very least, reduce it’s cast time or make it instant.

I like most of Jalis skills, the only problem is that we haven’t found any hard content that requires him. And he lacks mobility for WvW content.

Soothing Stone is ok, remove 3 conditions + 6 seconds of Retal is very strong.
Forced Engagement is fine with the reduced energy cost.
Vengeful Hammer does it’s job, but again, the lack of difficult content makes it uncecessary.

Inspiring Reinforcement, it was suggested before to make this skill a charge, and build the road behind your character. This would give Jalis some mobility, and increase the Stability duration to 3 sec with 1 sec interval. Give 1 stack of stab on cast as well.

Rite of the Great Dwarf doen’t need Resistance, that’s a Mallyx boon. I’d like if they round the cast time to 1 sec, the same as Jade Winds.

Kronos.2560:

Inspiring Reinforcement- Make it break stun and give stability immediately on use. While on road pulse retaliation. Keep the cooldown.

Forced engagement just needs projectile speed.

Vengeful hammers This ability is by far the best ability jalis has. The only downside is that it gets destroyed by walls/uneven ground. (to the point I would call it a bug but apparently its supposed to do that…..)

Rite of The great dwarf – Remove stunbreak (give to inspiring reinforcement). The case time feels fine, but I think the duration needs to be bumped up to 7-8 seconds instead of 5. (and no it wouldn’t be op because it’s not a group invul, its just a over-glorified group protection)

That is a very fine change list. If Roy had posted that I wouldn’t have a thing to quibble about.

I would like everyone to realise that on swapping to jalis and every 10s later you can get 5s of 82%(plus whatever toughness adds) or more damage reduction. Which with regeneration is essentially a free defy pain every 10s.

If you just came from malyx you potentially have close to a 100% immunity to everything on the first swap. If not you still are immune to physical damage 50% of the time.

As far as I can tell only the road and the taunt need changing.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I would like everyone to realise that on swapping to jalis and every 10s later you can get 5s of 82%(plus whatever toughness adds) or more damage reduction. Which with regeneration is essentially a free defy pain every 10s.

If you just came from malyx you potentially have close to a 100% immunity to everything on the first swap. If not you still are immune to physical damage 50% of the time.

As far as I can tell only the road and the taunt need changing.

And 0 energy to do anything else. Great energy management right there man

Daniel Handler.4816:

I would like everyone to realise that on swapping to jalis and every 10s later you can get 5s of 82%(plus whatever toughness adds) or more damage reduction. Which with regeneration is essentially a free defy pain every 10s.

If you just came from malyx you potentially have close to a 100% immunity to everything on the first swap. If not you still are immune to physical damage 50% of the time.

As far as I can tell only the road and the taunt need changing.

Where is the 82% figure from? I don’t think you are counting one with nature, since that plus Rite would only be 66% and F2 is on a 25 second cooldown.

If you cast Rite immediately, you would have no energy for hammers (IIRC the cost on Rite is 50, not 40 as the wiki states, so you would have to wait a bit before doing that. Even so, rite plus hammers is only 60% total (and far less vs conditions)

Soothing stone is a 30 second cooldown and the trained protection is only 2 seconds.

What are you referring to?

Misguided.5139:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I would like everyone to realise that on swapping to jalis and every 10s later you can get 5s of 82%(plus whatever toughness adds) or more damage reduction. Which with regeneration is essentially a free defy pain every 10s.

If you just came from malyx you potentially have close to a 100% immunity to everything on the first swap. If not you still are immune to physical damage 50% of the time.

As far as I can tell only the road and the taunt need changing.

Where is the 82% figure from? I don’t think you are counting one with nature, since that plus Rite would only be 66% and F2 is on a 25 second cooldown.

If you cast Rite immediately, you would have no energy for hammers (the cost on Rite is 50, not 40 as the wiki states, so you would have to wait a bit before doing that. Even so, rite plus hammers is only 60% total (and far less vs conditions)

Soothing stone is a 30 second cooldown and the trained protection is only 2 seconds.

What are you referring to?

Traits in retribution, invocation added give 30%
You have enough for hammers because of the energy gain during the cast time of rite and the inherent delays of aftercasts and human finger speed. 20%
You have the 50% of the rite of the great dwarf
We are now at 70%ish damage reduction, add protection we jump to 82%ish

When you add in the damage reduction that comes from armor it means that permanent protection is not even a requirement. When a thief’s backstab will hit you for between 1000 or 500 (Dwarven battle training) and you have regeneration and retaliation, it’s basically a defy pain.

So basically what you’re saying is that if you use rite and vengeful hammers at same time, while using f2 active this can be achieved. Which is probably possible assuming you use all of them simultaneously.

Please tell me where all this energy is coming from? You do realize you get 50 energy on legend swap not 100 right? Just rite takes all of it… done, no more energy, now the waiting game, sit back and auto attack…. you realize this right?

Kronos.2560:

So basically what you’re saying is that if you use rite and vengeful hammers at same time, while using f2 active this can be achieved. Which is probably possible assuming you use all of them simultaneously.

Please tell me where all this energy is coming from? You do realize you get 50 energy on legend swap not 100 right? Just rite takes all of it… done, no more energy, now the waiting game, sit back and auto attack…. you realize this right?

You do realize that rite has a channel time right and an aftercast? Whether you use the 50 energy at the start or end of channeling won’t even matter.

Swap spam f2 into exploding, . 25 of a second, .75 energy gained.
Rite of great dwarf, 1.25 seconds channel, 6.25 energy gained.

That is 7 seconds of energy and you only need . 6 of a second in aftercasts to reach the 10 seconds requirement for a five seconds hammer use.

Energy gain is constant and ticks in millisecond.

This is pretty interesting, actually. I’ve been so focused on making a more aggressive build for once, I hadn’t spent a ton of time contemplating what a tank/bunker build might look like.

Retribution minor GM, plus shrouding mists, plus vengeful hammers activated on swap would give you the equivalent of protection for a good chunk of time, not counting actual Protection. add in Herald for Hardening Persistence, bolster fortifications, and bulwark/bastion and you could have a pretty darn tanky build if you want. I don’t think Rite is a good use of energy on any sort of routine basis, though.

This is a Hell of a post, A lot of great Ideas here on how to fix most of his skills…

I love the Idea of dropping Taunt from FE and just making it a brutal Slow.

And I also love the Idea of IR being a Change that builds the road behind you along with fitting the mental image and skill name into it perfectly.

Wish I had read this post before I posted mine… XD

Misguided.5139:

This is pretty interesting, actually. I’ve been so focused on making a more aggressive build for once, I hadn’t spent a ton of time contemplating what a tank/bunker build might look like.

Retribution minor GM, plus shrouding mists, plus vengeful hammers activated on swap would give you the equivalent of protection for a good chunk of time, not counting actual Protection. add in Herald for Hardening Persistence, bolster fortifications, and bulwark/bastion and you could have a pretty darn tanky build if you want. I don’t think Rite is a good use of energy on any sort of routine basis, though.

I’m gonna blow your mind.

Retribution: close quarters, Dwarven battle training, rejuvenating steadfast
Invocation: cleansing channel, invigorating howl, shrouding mist
Herald: Hardening Persistence, bolster fortifications, enhanced bulwark

Use a staff and a sword/shield for max block+evade

1. 5 second of the rite of the defy pain
2. 5 seconds of shield block plus UA
3. Swap legends and set
4. 3 second of warding rift into surge of the mist
5. 3 second of being hit like a normal person except you have traits and protection and they have weakness
6. 4 seconds of infuse light to full heath
7. repeat all of these steps using infuse light every other rotation, the cycles it’s off cooldown just dodge more (which you should be doing because of stability) and use your heal in jalis when you go for step one, making up for the five energy loss by waiting one second before you activate the rite of the great dwarf) the 3 or 7 second period will not be challenging given all your buffs.

I’ve never played a bunker build before (I primarily PvE). My main concern at the moment is finishing up my main gear set, but I’m definitely going to keep this in mind. It might be really useful for tanking in raids moving forward. Might have to start putting some soldier gear together.

I know I’m in the minority while I post this comment but I hate, HATE, Jalis. Not from a “roles” standpoint, it just feels clunky to me. Too much CC in WvW making rev not a great frontline class.

If RotGD worked more like an ele’s Armor of Earth and Vengeful Hammers was lowered to -6 degen instead of -7, I would like it much more.
Also Inspiring Reinforcement needs help (longer stab or faster application)… just something.

I say these things knowing my bias against Dwarf Stance #JalisMakinMeHateDoorfs

Manarain.7940:

I know I’m in the minority while I post this comment but I hate, HATE, Jalis. Not from a “roles” standpoint, it just feels clunky to me. Too much CC in WvW making rev not a great frontline class.

If RotGD worked more like an ele’s Armor of Earth and Vengeful Hammers was lowered to -6 degen instead of -7, I would like it much more.
Also Inspiring Reinforcement needs help (longer stab or faster application)… just something.

I say these things knowing my bias against Dwarf Stance #JalisMakinMeHateDoorfs

I personally enjoy Jalis, at least I will once it gets some fixes. But I highly doubt you are the minority. I would bet that most people feel that way and the minority actually use jalis. I also agree if nothing changes it still is clunky. Road doesn’t really work (not enough or long enough stabil) vengeful hammers disappear on terrain, taunt is just meh…, elite is ok (still feel needs more duration) but looking at it that way. If all the legend has going for it that works is an elite something is wrong…

Manarain.7940:

I know I’m in the minority while I post this comment but I hate, HATE, Jalis. Not from a “roles” standpoint, it just feels clunky to me. Too much CC in WvW making rev not a great frontline class.

If RotGD worked more like an ele’s Armor of Earth and Vengeful Hammers was lowered to -6 degen instead of -7, I would like it much more.
Also Inspiring Reinforcement needs help (longer stab or faster application)… just something.

I say these things knowing my bias against Dwarf Stance #JalisMakinMeHateDoorfs

…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unwavering_Avoidance
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enhanced_Bulwark

Jalis stance could have zero stability and I wouldn’t care .

I also ran rev in the front lines.

The thing is I didn’t run jalis stance, just the retribution line. Each stance is the extreme expression of a role, the traitlines also express that role but enhance commonly desirable aspects of roles .

So don’t you dont need the stance unless you absolutely must tank, same as ventari and healing . They are more PvE specs .

And then there’s this:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Yup, that’s a thing. Rite of the Great Dwarf procs when hit at or below 50% HP and makes Rite of the Great Dwarf provide 50% condition damage reduction as well.

I did NOT want to take the retribution line, but Roy is making it difficult.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The thing is I didn’t run jalis stance

Best response in a thread about Jalis.

But about the stability information, I liken the revenant’s access to stability a bit on par with mesmer’s access to stability,
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Break
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Disillusionment,
and an example of running mesmer as frontline in WvW. Instead of being a frontline class, mesmer is absolutely amazing at mid to backline roles. I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m just saying it’s not great. The same can be said about revenant, frontline rev is fun but hammer mid to backline pressure/support is so much better than running it as a frontline brawler.

But this thread is about Jalis and this kind of comment should be put into new thread if you want to talk about WvW role definition.

Manarain.7940:

Daniel Handler.4816:

The thing is I didn’t run jalis stance

Best response in a thread about Jalis.

But about the stability information, I liken the revenant’s access to stability a bit on par with mesmer’s access to stability,
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Break
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Disillusionment,
and an example of running mesmer as frontline in WvW. Instead of being a frontline class, mesmer is absolutely amazing at mid to backline roles. I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m just saying it’s not great. The same can be said about revenant, frontline rev is fun but hammer mid to backline pressure/support is so much better than running it as a frontline brawler.

But this thread is about Jalis and this kind of comment should be put into new thread if you want to talk about WvW role definition.

They are incomparable because mesmer doesn’t have the number if blocks and immunes that Rev and other frontliners have.

And if you read the post you would see that I said it’s hard to balance based on how jalis performs in wvw because atm it isn’t necessary in wvw.

The road is more useful in PvE or PvP as tanks/bunkers/fractal utility where stationary play is more acceptable. Inspiring reinforcement can replace hallowed ground which isn’t needed in wvw but it can’t replace stand your group which is. The sole instance of use being giving stability to rammers and that is not enough to warrant use of the stance.

The taunt is useful in ganking low stability players which is limited to pvp because in wvw it is not as useful as removing stability with malyx as boon removal is in shorter supply than cc. The skill is useless in pve because the enemies that need to be tanked have breakbars. The skill would be only be truly useful for drawing aggro as a bunker in PvP.

Jalis’ seemingly only good use in wvw would be to pair it with Glint and act as a damage reduction and stability bot for people on siege. But again, that is not enough to warrant taking it, glints regeneration plus protection is usually more than enough.

The issue with jalis is that unlike all of the other stances it’s skills are not truly useful in all game modes.

“The issue with jalis is that unlike all of the other stances it’s skills are not truly useful in all game modes.”.

Yes but at the same time its not just game mode. Jalis skills are just a mess in any game mode. Road is restricted to a small stacked space. Vengeful hammers force you to be in the middle of a field/wide open area or they wont work. Taunt is very very situational. Elite is only one that kind of carries over. So yes its based on game mode but even then… it just lacks any semblance of synergy between skills. All of its skills basically counteract eachother.

-If I use any skill it leaves no energy for elite. (not dissing the elite, its good I’m just making synergy observation)
-If I use road, it wont really work unless I’m stacking so hammers would be pointless.
-If I use hammers, the opposite applies where stacking doesn’t work because terrain destroys them.
-I guess taunt can be used with other skills… but nonetheless it is probably one of the most situational skills in the game. Useless in pve, useless in wvw, and just meh in pvp.

Kronos.2560:

“The issue with jalis is that unlike all of the other stances it’s skills are not truly useful in all game modes.”.

Yes but at the same time its not just game mode. Jalis skills are just a mess in any game mode. Road is restricted to a small stacked space. Vengeful hammers force you to be in the middle of a field/wide open area or they wont work. Taunt is very very situational. Elite is only one that kind of carries over. So yes its based on game mode but even then… it just lacks any semblance of synergy between skills. All of its skills basically counteract eachother.

-If I use any skill it leaves no energy for elite. (not dissing the elite, its good I’m just making synergy observation)
-If I use road, it wont really work unless I’m stacking so hammers would be pointless.
-If I use hammers, the opposite applies where stacking doesn’t work because terrain destroys them.
-I guess taunt can be used with other skills… but nonetheless it is probably one of the most situational skills in the game. Useless in pve, useless in wvw, and just meh in pvp.

I second this

Tbh they should revert the change they did long time ago and gve Rite back 100% immunity to direct damage like endure pain. Imho i cannot imagine anyone playing with Jalis in current state outside of pve – healing from hammers at group of mobs is really good as it has no target limit, meanwhile it sux in pvp against retal.

I think Jalis is beyond fixing at this point and he needs total overhaul due to many issues mentioned in this thread.

• Soothing bastion

Increase hp by 20%
Decrease casttime to 3/4sec

• Inspiring Reinforcement – Grant stability to yourself and allies.

35 energy cost
3 stacks of stability for 5 seconds
Stunbreak
5cd

• Forced Engagement – Launch a chain at your target, taunting and weakening opponents on it path.

Faster chain speed.
Non reflectable/deflecable (unblockable?)
6second weakness
Pierces
30 Energy

• Vengeful Hammers – Summon and fire vengeful hammers in fan shape in front of you slowing down your opponents.

40 energy
3/4 sec casttime
900 range
100 damage/hit
1sec slow/hit
Number of hammers; 12

Cant lie..i stolen idea of this skill from Manus dark orb barrage in gift It is not supposed to hit more than 3 times single enemy unless they trying to strafe while being in center.

• Rite of the Great Dwarf -

Upkeep ability
-8 energy

I really like Jalis, in concept. There’s a lot of issues, very valid ones you guys brought up. Like Rite of the Great Dwarf isnt good enough for 50 energy and a 1.5s CD. It also should not be the stun breaker because that means your energy is soft capped at 50 and there’s no guarantee it will cast, especially if your using it as a stun break. If your going to try a brawler play style your going to need to have a readily accessible stunbreak.

I like the hammers but they need more love. -20% damage over all is sweet but I don’t notice it. The heal is negligible as well.

The heal is also the worst of all. For the tank class it needs to be better. The cast needs to be lower or the heal needs to be stronger, either more hp or more condition removal.

Over all Jalis sucks at condition removal/mitigation, which throws the defence theme out the window. All current bunker builds can manage conditions really well, but revenant can’t outside Mallyx and Glint can manage defence better so why would I ever use Jalis?

Hooglese.4860:

I really like Jalis, in concept. There’s a lot of issues, very valid ones you guys brought up. Like Rite of the Great Dwarf isnt good enough for 50 energy and a 1.5s CD. It also should not be the stun breaker because that means your energy is soft capped at 50 and there’s no guarantee it will cast, especially if your using it as a stun break. If your going to try a brawler play style your going to need to have a readily accessible stunbreak.

I like the hammers but they need more love. -20% damage over all is sweet but I don’t notice it. The heal is negligible as well.

The heal is also the worst of all. For the tank class it needs to be better. The cast needs to be lower or the heal needs to be stronger, either more hp or more condition removal.

Over all Jalis sucks at condition removal/mitigation, which throws the defence theme out the window. All current bunker builds can manage conditions really well, but revenant can’t outside Mallyx and Glint can manage defence better so why would I ever use Jalis?

Each stance is a role. Jalis role is tanking. There are two types of tanking in this game. Low health high healing and high heath high damage reduction. Technically three if you count necros extremely high health low damage reduction. Jalis is the second.

It had twice as much damage mitigation and twice as less healing and cleanse as a bunker guard. If you want healing and cleanse go ventari. Condi mitigation is health or resistance, both jalis will not give you.

With upcoming changes you will be able to get at 60% condi and 80% physical damage reduction up 50% of the time. The only thing that would bother you is burn and soothing stone deals with that.

I don’t think Jalis is meant for brawling, that would be Glint.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t think Jalis is meant for brawling, that would be Glint.

When a revenant calls on the power of Jalis, they’ll be transforming into what Cronacher calls a “dwarf brawler kind of playstyle.” They’ll be a tank in the massively multiplayer sense of being able to take a lot of damage, but they’ll also be incredibly aggressive.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2015/2/18/8061219/guild-wars-2-profession-reveal-revenant-pc-mmo-arenanet

It was stated in every article that Jalis would be a brawler. Right now its far from reality as Glint tanks much better while being also aggresive. Inst something wrong here?

I think the cast time for Rite is right where it should be now. You certainly can’t have that effect on a 1/4 or instant cast.

Burtnik.5218:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t think Jalis is meant for brawling, that would be Glint.

When a revenant calls on the power of Jalis, they’ll be transforming into what Cronacher calls a “dwarf brawler kind of playstyle.” They’ll be a tank in the massively multiplayer sense of being able to take a lot of damage, but they’ll also be incredibly aggressive.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2015/2/18/8061219/guild-wars-2-profession-reveal-revenant-pc-mmo-arenanet

It was stated in every article that Jalis would be a brawler. Right now its far from reality as Glint tanks much better while being also aggresive. Inst something wrong here?

Sorry I confused brawler and bruiser for a second. Bruiser, brawler, bunker.

Bruiser: damage primary, tanking secondary
Brawler: tanking primary, damage secondary
Bunker: tanking primary, support secondary

The same people who said jalis is a brawler also said that reaper and berserker spec are also brawlers. And none of those two specs have the condition removal capacity of a bunker.