Whats Wrong with Renegade

Whats Wrong with Renegade

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

Nothing works together. Not the traits, the utility skills, the weapon nor the profession mechanic work in tandem. This alone is bad but it’s not why Renegade is bad, it’s a symptom of the bigger problem.

Renegade doesn’t have a design philosophy. There isn’t a core design philosophy to guide its development. The closest thing you can say is “Charr” and Charr isn’t a gameplay design, it’s a lore design.

With other elite specs you can see the gameplay design immediately. I can not think of another elite spec that has this problem. Even herald has boons. Scrapper is tanky. Spellbreaker is gw1 Mesmer.

If I were to design renegade I’d have started with the profession mechanic, which doesn’t exist. What is the profession mechanic? Kallas fervor is just a buff and could be replaced with a trait that lets rev have more might. The f abilities are just more skills and don’t change gameplay at all, especially since theyre basically just utility skills. The bow is just an underpowered condi weapon and the new utility skills are just underpowered summon skills.

If a single one of these ideas took precedence in the design section, then the Renegade wouldn’t be such a mess. I’ll theory craft each of the possible renegade depending on the design:

  • Kallas Fervor – the bow would benefit from flanking and make it easier. The utility abilities would be mobility based and help share Fervor to allied. The f abilities would scale with Fervor or cost fervor to use. Kallas Fervor would also be able to improve sustain.
  • Citadel Orders (f2-4) – the abilities would not cost conventional energy but instead have charges, like firebrand. The traits and Kallas Fervor would promote using the more often. The bow would be area control oriented and the utility abilities would be as well.
  • Bow – Kallas Fervor/traits would be more condition oriented, the orders would be more selfish and condi damage oriented, and the utility abilities would be focused on lock down and condition damage.
  • Summons -Kallas Fervor would be gained based off summoned allies and traits would make summons more powerful, the orders would be summons and the bow would be a control/defensive weapon.

Is renegade any of these? No it’s not. It’s none of these and yet it’s all of them. It’s a mess of an elite spec. Buffing any single aspect isn’t going to fix Renegade. At best it will make it Renegade broken but only because of <insert buffed thing here>. The only way to fix Renegade would be a rework unfortunately, otherwise you just end up taking renegade for one thing only, like the bow or the traits.

PvP
revenant – Hoogles Von Boogles
Mesmer – hoogelz

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Posted by: narcx.3570

narcx.3570

Well said…

I mean, it’s probably going to be worth taking for Kalla’s Fever and then just running Core Rev Legends/weapsets… But that will inevitably be nerfed to the point where it’ll not even worth bringing either.

Clearly the whole thing is just another giant stumble in revenant design/gameplay… So many things revs needed to compete in PoF and Kalla provided none of them.

I mean, at this point I’d of even been sort of happy if all we got was Legendary Komucha Master, who’s probiotic tea powers added cleanse to every single weapon skill and holistically fixed all of our skill pathing bugs.

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Posted by: ScottBroChill.3254

ScottBroChill.3254

agreed. the whole part of the design philosophy is on point, and you can definitely see that as well with the core revenant. Every class has options for power/condi/tank/and whatever else, but their different traits and skills and how each things operate are all along similar lines and the classes seem to know how they want to be played. With rev, everything is so disjointed and doesn’t have a play style or flavor for the class as a whole. Is it an in and out class like thief? a more sustain class? a class that AA’s with an upkeep skill like mundo in lol? I think kalla is just an extreme example of trying to make an elite spec too much, and ending up making it too little in everything to be fun. The shortbow doesn’t even have synergy with any of the utilities. You would think the legend and the legend’s weapon would have synergy. This also occurs with dwarf stance and hammer, but the utilities there are better designed there.

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Posted by: Street Peddler.2638

Street Peddler.2638

after playing it more during the stress test, this is correct. absolutely nothing synergizes. the whole elite just makes no sense, couldnt even tell you what the spec is supposed to accomplish.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

This was one of the last elite specs to be done (implied by leaks and confirmed by devs), it was rushed out, and it completely shows.

The Renegade is the result of when a designer is under pressure to create and implement a workable concept in such a tiny amount of time. The spec is full of generic, “safe” ideas thrown together into the same cooking pot.

F skills? Generic utilities not unlike what you’d expect from skills in the utility bar.
Shorbow? Generic skill effects (condi AA, rapid fire v2, inverted cone arrows, barrage with fire field, and mesmer’s gs 5 skill with a knockdown instead of a knockback).
Summons? A somewhat interesting/ somewhat problematic mechanic that was copy-pasted five times with different passives tacked on it.

There’s almost nothing interesting going on about it. The summon mechanic is interesting, but you only needed 1-2 skills devoted to it, not your entire utility bar. The shortbow has some unique ideas, like the inverted cone or portal arrows, but there’s no specific playstyle to it. F3 is good looking, but it could very well have been a shortbow skill. F2 and F4 are generic AoE support effects.

What is this elite spec about? Is it a condition spec? Is it a support spec? What is this elite spec’s playstyle? Summoning Ai buff bots while you shoot arrows at range? That’s it?

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Posted by: ScottBroChill.3254

ScottBroChill.3254

yeah dude. The utilities are support, the bow is supposed to be damage, and the traits are generic. Honestly if they wanted the whole “ritualist” thing and to make it actually special and work they should have made razah the legend (or make up a new ritualist or some kitten like they did with kalla), and make spirits as the utilities like they did but long lasting and possibly more self dps oriented, give revs scepter and focus and they would use skills influenced from channeling magic on scepter, restoration magic on focus, and basically make us a heavy caster. new F skills could include someting that teleports your spirits to somewhere around you, one that consumes spirits for health, and maybe that’s it.

tl;dr spec is unfocused and has no direction. If they are giving us ritualist inspired skills make the spec act like an actual ritualist with gosh darn cyan skill effects. not a worse ranger with even worse spirits.

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

This was one of the last elite specs to be done (implied by leaks and confirmed by devs), it was rushed out, and it completely shows.

Oh? Where’s the source? I’m not in anyway doubting it. It looks like the whole thing was thrown together during a coffee break.

PvP
revenant – Hoogles Von Boogles
Mesmer – hoogelz

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Agreed, it is a bit of a mess. I just want to be able to shoot flaming ponies at people in peace.

I’d like to see them make the summons more functional, either more mobile, or with longer effective range, so that you can reasonably apply your effects to an entire battlefield, rather than just one small corner of it. I actually like the idea that Kalla is a general, so her Noble Phantasm is to summon an “army” to command, but hers is one of the least “army-like” summon sets in the whole game. She should have an actual army, you bring these guys out and they swarm the enemies or bounce from teammate to teammate doing their role like an active participant. In the meantime I’ll be using Thieves’ Guild, thank you.

I’d like SB3 to have a tighter grouping so that it’s less likely to get caught on terrain.

I’d like them to sort the energy management issues, so that you can reasonably fight without running out.

I’d like to be able to be Kalla/Glint spec, because the Revenant requires Glint to be playable.

I’d like to be able to use traits to make either a solid Power spec with negligible condi impact, OR a full Condi spec out of it, depending on my choices.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

(edited by Ohoni.6057)

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Posted by: Vyrulisse.1246

Vyrulisse.1246

yeah dude. The utilities are support, the bow is supposed to be damage, and the traits are generic. Honestly if they wanted the whole “ritualist” thing and to make it actually special and work they should have made razah the legend (or make up a new ritualist or some kitten like they did with kalla), and make spirits as the utilities like they did but long lasting and possibly more self dps oriented, give revs scepter and focus and they would use skills influenced from channeling magic on scepter, restoration magic on focus, and basically make us a heavy caster. new F skills could include someting that teleports your spirits to somewhere around you, one that consumes spirits for health, and maybe that’s it.

tl;dr spec is unfocused and has no direction. If they are giving us ritualist inspired skills make the spec act like an actual ritualist with gosh darn cyan skill effects. not a worse ranger with even worse spirits.

Scourge feels more like a Ritualist than Renegade by far.

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Posted by: Absconditus.6804

Absconditus.6804

I’d like to be able to be Kalla/Glint spec, because the Revenant requires Glint to be playable.

I personally disagree with this. In no way does Revenant require Glint to be playable. I like the upkeeps, but I can create perma-Swiftness that spans minutes by running Jalis and using Inspiring Reinforcement followed by Echoing Eruption. I can create 25 stacks of Might (over a couple repeated cycles) from Searing Fissure followed by, again, Echoing Eruption. What Glint is, is a fun Elite Specialization that creates lazy Revenants that just want to run around with a switch to turn on and off for boon sharing and permanent Swiftness requiring no input. You won’t even need that much Swiftness come PoF, since mounts will move you about faster when outside of dungeons and such where I will assume they are disabled.

Vella Absconditus | Human Mesmer
Seafarer’s Rest

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I like the upkeeps, but I can create perma-Swiftness that spans minutes by running Jalis and using Inspiring Reinforcement followed by Echoing Eruption. I can create 25 stacks of Might (over a couple repeated cycles) from Searing Fissure followed by, again, Echoing Eruption.

That seems complicated. I’d prefer to just click on the toggles and play the game instead.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: narcx.3570

narcx.3570

I’d like to be able to be Kalla/Glint spec, because the Revenant requires Glint to be playable.

I personally disagree with this. In no way does Revenant require Glint to be playable. I like the upkeeps, but I can create perma-Swiftness that spans minutes by running Jalis and using Inspiring Reinforcement followed by Echoing Eruption. I can create 25 stacks of Might (over a couple repeated cycles) from Searing Fissure followed by, again, Echoing Eruption. What Glint is, is a fun Elite Specialization that creates lazy Revenants that just want to run around with a switch to turn on and off for boon sharing and permanent Swiftness requiring no input. You won’t even need that much Swiftness come PoF, since mounts will move you about faster when outside of dungeons and such where I will assume they are disabled.

It’s fun to bash Herald as a lazy spec by only focusing on the upkeep boons, but it’s easy to forget how many useful tools are in it. Play a few games without Facet of Light and see how even more unforgiving Rev is since you won’t be able to eat a single condi bomb. And you especially won’t be able to rez anyone.

Even something as simple as trying to stomp somebody without Gaze of Darkness is a freakin’ nightmare. And don’t say just use Jalis’s stability, because by picking Jalis there will be nobody to stomp in the first place. :P Without GoD, you will literally have to Impossible Odds cleave every single downed (or i guess searing fissure spam them if you’re condi)… I mean, you should probably still be doing this anyways, but sometimes it just feels great to troll someone with your finisher.

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

I’d like to be able to be Kalla/Glint spec, because the Revenant requires Glint to be playable.

I personally disagree with this. In no way does Revenant require Glint to be playable. I like the upkeeps, but I can create perma-Swiftness that spans minutes by running Jalis and using Inspiring Reinforcement followed by Echoing Eruption. I can create 25 stacks of Might (over a couple repeated cycles) from Searing Fissure followed by, again, Echoing Eruption. What Glint is, is a fun Elite Specialization that creates lazy Revenants that just want to run around with a switch to turn on and off for boon sharing and permanent Swiftness requiring no input. You won’t even need that much Swiftness come PoF, since mounts will move you about faster when outside of dungeons and such where I will assume they are disabled.

It’s fun to bash Herald as a lazy spec by only focusing on the upkeep boons, but it’s easy to forget how many useful tools are in it. Play a few games without Facet of Light and see how even more unforgiving Rev is since you won’t be able to eat a single condi bomb. And you especially won’t be able to rez anyone.

Even something as simple as trying to stomp somebody without Gaze of Darkness is a freakin’ nightmare. And don’t say just use Jalis’s stability, because by picking Jalis there will be nobody to stomp in the first place. :P Without GoD, you will literally have to Impossible Odds cleave every single downed (or i guess searing fissure spam them if you’re condi)… I mean, you should probably still be doing this anyways, but sometimes it just feels great to troll someone with your finisher.

Idk you can play with out glint. Herald is iffy but glint isn’t. If you run a condi build it’s not hard to bait stability out for the stomp and resistance stops condi bombs better than facet of light. That said I can’t see running Revenant without the revive trait in PvP because you won’t revive anyone ever.

PvP
revenant – Hoogles Von Boogles
Mesmer – hoogelz