Guild Wars 2

timmyf.1490:

Mmm. So if none of that is support, what is support? Just healing? Ventari tablet woosh woosh and PvE is magically fixed?

I didn’t say it wasn’t support, I said that in the current state of PvE anything outside of more DPS, wall, and occasional stability isn’t needed or isn’t meaningful and the I hope things will change with HoT and builds other than pure DPS will have more importance.

Julie Yann.5379:

timmyf.1490:

Mmm. So if none of that is support, what is support? Just healing? Ventari tablet woosh woosh and PvE is magically fixed?

I didn’t say it wasn’t support, I said that in the current state of PvE anything outside of more DPS, wall, and occasional stability isn’t needed or isn’t meaningful and the I hope things will change with HoT and builds other than pure DPS will have more importance.

Oh, sorry. I was just ignoring the part where you incorrectly asserted that none of that was used.

Also, I forgot vuln, weakness, and occasional poison.

Julie Yann.5379:

timmyf.1490:

Mmm. So if none of that is support, what is support? Just healing? Ventari tablet woosh woosh and PvE is magically fixed?

I didn’t say it wasn’t support, I said that in the current state of PvE anything outside of more DPS, wall, and occasional stability isn’t needed or isn’t meaningful and the I hope things will change with HoT and builds other than pure DPS will have more importance.

Soooo….the condi clear in some dungeons isn’t meaningful?

So the aegis that just saved you from being downed by Archdiviner isn’t meaningful?

The protection that was the sole reason you wasn’t killed by Ginva auto attack isn’t meaningful?

The vigor you have that enabled you to dodge a Mossman axe isn’t meaningful?

Chaining blinds on dangerous trash isn’t meaningful?

Clearing defiance stacks on some dangerous bosses isn’t meaningful?
You get my point, right?

Khenzo.2465:

Julie Yann.5379:

timmyf.1490:

Mmm. So if none of that is support, what is support? Just healing? Ventari tablet woosh woosh and PvE is magically fixed?

I didn’t say it wasn’t support, I said that in the current state of PvE anything outside of more DPS, wall, and occasional stability isn’t needed or isn’t meaningful and the I hope things will change with HoT and builds other than pure DPS will have more importance.

Soooo….the condi clear in some dungeons isn’t meaningful?

So the aegis that just saved you from being downed by Archdiviner isn’t meaningful?

The protection that was the sole reason you wasn’t killed by Ginva auto attack isn’t meaningful?

The vigor you have that enabled you to dodge a Mossman axe isn’t meaningful?

You get my point, right?

Condi clear? Every class has enough condi clear to cover handle those without losing much DPS. Having a support build on you team to do it for you isn’t needed.

People complete dungeon runs without guardians or access to aegis all the time so it is irrelevant.

Protection, if you get kill by AA you need to l2p.

Vigor, if you know what to dodge and not randomly spam it, you’ll have plenty of endurance to dodge the axe.

You get my point?

Currently, support roles have no real importance.

Julie Yann.5379:

Khenzo.2465:

Julie Yann.5379:

timmyf.1490:

Mmm. So if none of that is support, what is support? Just healing? Ventari tablet woosh woosh and PvE is magically fixed?

I didn’t say it wasn’t support, I said that in the current state of PvE anything outside of more DPS, wall, and occasional stability isn’t needed or isn’t meaningful and the I hope things will change with HoT and builds other than pure DPS will have more importance.

Soooo….the condi clear in some dungeons isn’t meaningful?

So the aegis that just saved you from being downed by Archdiviner isn’t meaningful?

The protection that was the sole reason you wasn’t killed by Ginva auto attack isn’t meaningful?

The vigor you have that enabled you to dodge a Mossman axe isn’t meaningful?

You get my point, right?

Condi clear? Every class has enough condi clear to cover handle those without losing much DPS. Having a support build on you team to do it for you isn’t needed.

People complete dungeon runs without guardians or access to aegis all the time so it is irrelevant.

Protection, if you get kill be AA you need to l2p.

Vigor, if you know what to dodge and not randomly spam it, you’ll have plenty of endurance you dodge the axe.

You get my point?

Currently, support roles have no real importance.

I’m not argueing for a direct full support role (as in going balls deep support or what ever)

I’m just saying, if you think protection really has no use, or doesn’t help you, or if vigor doesn’t help you, aegis doesn’t ever save you etc then you must be playing on god tier level.

Please, don’t act like you’ve never been helped by any of this.

Just stop.

Edit: Just because a certain type of defense isn’t 100% needed doesn’t make it bad, or not meaningful. Just….sigh.

Khenzo.2465:

I’m not argueing for a direct full support role (as in going balls deep support or what ever)

I’m just saying, if you think protection really has no use, or doesn’t help you, or if vigor doesn’t help you, aegis doesn’t ever save you etc then you must be playing on god tier level.

Please, don’t act like you’ve never been helped by any of this.

Just stop.

Do they help? yes
Is that help really need? Not so much. How else do you explain people soloing or 2 manning dungeons?

All this started when I said the looking at the revenant and other professions masteries that it seems like PvE was going to shift away from the current DPS meta and that support roles, whether it be healing, CC, or agro management might get a little more spotlight. As it is now they are overshadowed by DPS. I hope it does change.

Rym.1469:

lighter.2708:

Rym.1469:

Purple Miku.7032:

I couldn’t even tell which specialization was supposed to be more healing/defensive related, because all 4 specializations were filled with traits that had nothing pertaining to anything relevant in PvE. There were so few of decent traits that this class is really looking like it’s going to be weaker than necro, which says a lot.

I understand there will be 2 more, but just… how could these last two specializations make up for how absolutely terrible the current specializations are?

Thinking realistically it doesn’t look like this is going to be a good class at all. I don’t understand why there’s so much emphasis on healing allies and so little options for people who just want to focus on more offensive builds.

Eh, PvE peasants…

Because Revenant lacks all those damage modifiers, it’s actually amazing. Most traits (apart from Ventari ones) have some thought besides “20% more dmg when X”, they actually feel like traits or talents, not kittening level upgrade.

Before you say something:

1. I don’t and won’t care about PvE at it’s current rotten state. You have your DPS speedruning, I have my fun.

2. Neither you or me know anything about HoT PvE.

are you trying to say that rev is amazing in pvp? because it’s obviously not..

Numbers, cast times etc. are not here yet.
But I love the gameplay and the flow of it. It’s engaging, demanding and currently has best profession mechanic imo.

It requires work. But I already like it.

As for your wondering why do people want to play something that isn’t just DPS, I’d ask you why the hell people don’t use just one, “meta” position while having sex.

Because if your goal is to finish that as quickly as possible, you’re doing it wrong.

The whole class is a utility galore. The traits are all over the place and more than half of them are just boring passives. Not to mention how none of the trailine seems to be build defining except maybe invocation which kind of accents the energy management gameplay. The rest is, again, just utility galore.

Let’s say I want to believe that it’s a mess because anet is copping out stronger elements from rev in this version.

Rym.1469:

Eh, PvE peasants…

Because Revenant lacks all those damage modifiers, it’s actually amazing. Most traits (apart from Ventari ones) have some thought besides “20% more dmg when X”, they actually feel like traits or talents, not kittening level upgrade.

Before you say something:

1. I don’t and won’t care about PvE at it’s current rotten state. You have your DPS speedruning, I have my fun.

2. Neither you or me know anything about HoT PvE.

Wow condescending much?

What an incredibly myopic viewpoint to have. You don’t care about anybody else’s opinions as far as balance is concerned and only care about whether or not you have fun with roleplay healing builds. Well, that’s your problem.

Also why are some of you ganging up on Julie Yann?

She exaggerated a little in some comments but technically everything she said is true. You really don’t need to have things like vigour/protection/aegis and whatnot provided you know when to evade/block yourself.

I just find it kind of peculiar to read her type a comment like that which is technically true, then see someone reply to her and claim it to be the stupidest thing they’ve ever read. Excuse me?

-shrugs-

It’s a not uncommon game design philosophy to err on the side of underpowered and intentionally release something weak.

The idea is that players respond better when you buff things (in general), and the consequences of an overpowered new addition are far more damaging to the game than something that is lackluster.

So by releasing something that’s effectively a steaming pile you haven’t really made the game worse and you can get feedback and there’s no rush in buffing it up to competitive. Alternatively, releasing something too powerful quickly causes a lot of issues and there’s great pressure to fix it as soon as possible.

So they may be simply erring on the side of too-weak and being very conservative in releasing this new class. It’s not a bad approach to take, unless you go over the top and really release something lackluster.

But I don’t think the problems with the revenant are tuning issues…they’re more fundamental problems with the design of the class. In its current state it has those problems + conservative tuning so it is especially crappy.

Purple Miku.7032:

Also why are some of you ganging up on Julie Yann?

She exaggerated a little in some comments but technically everything she said is true. You really don’t need to have things like vigour/protection/aegis and whatnot provided you know when to evade/block yourself.

I just find it kind of peculiar to read her type a comment like that which is technically true, then see someone reply to her and claim it to be the stupidest thing they’ve ever read. Excuse me?

-shrugs-

Well, it was kind of a silly thing to say when you’re down to comparing the haves to the have-nots. If we were balancing Revenant toward itself, they’d might have a point, but that point is quickly lost when you’re without and someone else has a plethora of said effects.

Ideally, more classes would be slow and thoughtful like the Revenant, but that just isn’t close to the case. And making 1 more class spammy to fit in with the only 7 (8 if you wish to include Necromancer), unfortunately makes more sense than fixing the whole game in one fair swoop (already proven that they wouldn’t do). And leaving them without, well that’s not a great option either…

ronpierce.2760:

Purple Miku.7032:

Also why are some of you ganging up on Julie Yann?

She exaggerated a little in some comments but technically everything she said is true. You really don’t need to have things like vigour/protection/aegis and whatnot provided you know when to evade/block yourself.

I just find it kind of peculiar to read her type a comment like that which is technically true, then see someone reply to her and claim it to be the stupidest thing they’ve ever read. Excuse me?

-shrugs-

Well, it was kind of a silly thing to say when you’re down to comparing the haves to the have-nots. If we were balancing Revenant toward itself, they’d might have a point, but that point is quickly lost when you’re without and someone else has a plethora of said effects.

Ideally, more classes would be slow and thoughtful like the Revenant, but that just isn’t close to the case. And making 1 more class spammy to fit in with the only 7 (8 if you wish to include Necromancer), unfortunately makes more sense than fixing the whole game in one fair swoop (already proven that they wouldn’t do). And leaving them without, well that’s not a great option either…

I’m all for having a slow and thoughtful class. But that is kind of irrelevant in terms of DPS (the main complaint) and Miku’s OP (bad traits).

Malvir.1975:

So by releasing something that’s effectively a steaming pile you haven’t really made the game worse and you can get feedback and there’s no rush in buffing it up to competitive. Alternatively, releasing something too powerful quickly causes a lot of issues and there’s great pressure to fix it as soon as possible.

That logic doesn’t follow exactly since if you releasing things that are a “steaming pile” in betas you will get a lot of bad PR and people will probably not be as likely to buy your game. Alternatively you would get more anticipation and hype for something more powerful that you can always nerf later after the players have bought your game.

For example for players that haven’t pre-ordered this game yet that are reading the forums they will get the idea that the new class is really bad or have severe design flaws from all the negative feedback and might as a result not buy the game or wait until much later.

So in fact the consequences of what you are saying is almost exactly opposite. Since ANET is going to be now under extra pressure to make fixes or improvements due to the flood of negative forum reviews of the new class so that it doesn’t hurt their profits on release.

DeathPanel.8362:

That logic doesn’t follow exactly since if you releasing things that are a “steaming pile” in betas you will get a lot of bad PR and people will probably not be as likely to buy your game. Alternatively you would get more anticipation and hype for something more powerful that you can always nerf later after the players have bought your game.

For example for players that haven’t pre-ordered this game yet that are reading the forums they will get the idea that the new class is really bad or have severe design flaws from all the negative feedback and might as a result not buy the game or wait until much later.

So in fact the consequences of what you are saying is almost exactly opposite. Since ANET is going to be now under extra pressure to make fixes or improvements due to the flood of negative forum reviews of the new class so that it doesn’t hurt their profits on release.

I’m not even sure if that’s what’s going on here. It’s just how some designers think. Game designers often think very differently about a problem than gamers do.

To the issue of balance impacting perception/profits – if the balance isn’t right they get negative views either way. If it destabilizes the game it’s a bigger problem than if it doesn’t. So the general idea of “err on the side of underpowered” is not a bad idea. It’s generally a smart idea, as long as it’s not overboard. That isn’t to be confused with intentionally making something terrible. I don’t think they’re doing that.

But my point is that it’s easy to go overboard with that conservative approach and end up there, especially if you aren’t sure exactly how it will all gel together. The revenant is a significant departure from how most of the classes are so I can see how overly conservative turns into really bad.

Julie Yann.5379:

All this started when I said the looking at the revenant and other professions masteries that it seems like PvE was going to shift away from the current DPS meta and that support roles, whether it be healing, CC, or agro management might get a little more spotlight. As it is now they are overshadowed by DPS. I hope it does change.

Personally when i think about support builds that rely on aggro/healing i either think about those super tanky guardian builds that some people use that absolutely neuters content like mossman, or i think of content that cheesily requires a certain build in order to complete, yet requires little skill.

I feel like PvE shouldn’t shift away from dps rather that content should require more support. By this I don’t mean support builds but rather support skills. Besides fractals i rarely find it a requirement to use the support skills that classes have. I don’t mean that there is no use for them but rather, a pug ele that only presses 2 and 1 on staff can do most content in this game, even when using proper rotations using blinds reflects ccs are useful.

Idk that much about the traits but i feel like revenant doesn’t have much of a place in the game. It seems to be an amalgamation of other classes that just doesn’t bring much to the table. I personally wish it would be a class focussed on changing group’s damage and support output, kind of like channeling a certain hero would affect your whole group. For example if a certain boss is weak to condition damage, the rev could channel that hero and the whole groups condi damage would be increased, same with other heros and physical damage, and support boons and skills. Ofc sounds kind of OP but imagine how interesting group interplay could be.

Malvir.1975:

I’m not even sure if that’s what’s going on here. It’s just how some designers think. Game designers often think very differently about a problem than gamers do.

On what evidence can you claim you know how game designers think? Did they say this? Are you a game designer?

Also game designers don’t get to ultimately determine whether something gets implemented. It’s the business side that has to sign off depending on what type of effect it may have on the business.

champ.7021:

I pretty much agree, I don’t want the holy healer/tank/DPS either but I do want to see support and CC actually mean something in PvE. What is the point of cripple, chill, knock downs and knock backs, and immobilize when boss are pretty much immune to all of it? Now we have taunt/slow which could have some interesting applications if content is design properly.

When I spoke of aggro management I wasn’t really picturing a tanky meat shield I holds it for an entire fight soaking up all the damage. I was think of something more active like distracting they enemy for a few seconds at a time.

I think what we see here with the Revenant is only half the picture. I’m pretty sure it will have a DPS spec but Anet is focusing on showing us and testing out it’s support abilities. Like you said, it does feel like revenant hasn’t an actual place in the game st the moment and that could only mean 1 of 2 things. 1.The game is going to change 2. Revenant need to be reworked to fit within the current game.

Purple Miku.7032:

Rym.1469:

Eh, PvE peasants…

Because Revenant lacks all those damage modifiers, it’s actually amazing. Most traits (apart from Ventari ones) have some thought besides “20% more dmg when X”, they actually feel like traits or talents, not kittening level upgrade.

Before you say something:

1. I don’t and won’t care about PvE at it’s current rotten state. You have your DPS speedruning, I have my fun.

2. Neither you or me know anything about HoT PvE.

Wow condescending much?

What an incredibly myopic viewpoint to have. You don’t care about anybody else’s opinions as far as balance is concerned and only care about whether or not you have fun with roleplay healing builds. Well, that’s your problem.

Well said Miku. Honestly, with the amount of HoT headed teenagers frequenting these forums I expect such nonsense. With this mindset in place, i’m neither disappointed or frustrated.

I call it " The infinityandbeyond.9652’s school of numb"

There’s just that certain crowd of players who are bitter towards anyone that plays with berserker gear and look for any reason to trash talk them.

What people fail to understand is that on every game there will always be people that try to maximise their output on games.

Some people play to win, because that is how they have fun.

Purple Miku.7032:

There’s just that certain crowd of players who are bitter towards anyone that plays with berserker gear and look for any reason to trash talk them.

What people fail to understand is that on every game there will always be people that try to maximise their output on games.

Some people play to win, because that is how they have fun.

Somebody, maybe you Miku, used the phrase “roleplay builds” earlier. I think that’s a better phrase than even Play How I Want. Some folks just have this idea in their head that they want to X, even if X isn’t particularly effective.

I can understand that.

What I understand less are the people who refuse to play anything considered meta out of… spite? “This is popular, so I hate it!” Hipster builds?

DeathPanel.8362:

On what evidence can you claim you know how game designers think? Did they say this? Are you a game designer?

Also game designers don’t get to ultimately determine whether something gets implemented. It’s the business side that has to sign off depending on what type of effect it may have on the business.

Yes and yes, but not at Anet.

The “Business side” doesn’t signoff on everything. That requires way too much micromanagement. I’m sure every studio will be different, but business direction is usually very high level, not something that would reach down and muck with the implementation details of a class. I’d be really surprised if day-to-day designer work was being significantly impacted by “the business side.”

Isn’t it the same guy who does Elementalists is doing Revenants?

He’s a thematic designer. Everything must match a theme rather than be functional.

That’s why.

Purple Miku.7032:

Also why are some of you ganging up on Julie Yann?

She exaggerated a little in some comments but technically everything she said is true. You really don’t need to have things like vigour/protection/aegis and whatnot provided you know when to evade/block yourself.

I just find it kind of peculiar to read her type a comment like that which is technically true, then see someone reply to her and claim it to be the stupidest thing they’ve ever read. Excuse me?

-shrugs-

I guess you was talking about my comments.

When people say it’s not 100% needed, I said I agree it’s true. You absolutely don’t need it to complete anything. But it irks me horribly when people try to give off the vibe that they don’t ever get help from these defensives because l2p and DODGE! , or saying it isn’t meaningful (forgot the wording they used)

They would have been saved, hundreds, if not thousends of times during the course of the game by these things. But it’s not meaningful right?

Maybe I just missed the point they was making or something, I was tired during my comments.

If I missed any point that was being made forgive me.

But yeh, I don’t get why people act like these defenses are borderline useless when it’s the complete opposite.