Guild Wars 2

Hello All!

I’ve been curious about how the forum community views the Revenant in WvW.

What position in a zerg would suit this class the most? Why?
How does it fit into the current GWENN meta? How does it fit into the pirate ship meta? Is there a place for it at all within these paradigms?

This is my answer to these questions just to kick off discussion:
The position I see the revenant as having the most strengths within this game type would be a midline/ganking class to backline support/heavy damage class. Why? Playing into the class’ strengths, Hammer is good (really good) in zerg vs. zerg open field engagements. Coalescence of Ruin is terrifying when used in a way that is not encumbered by the toughness gear most frontline classes need. This means that you could run zerk in a backline setting and just destroy, also you can use the same setup and armor for roaming and ganking on the sidelines. Another reason that I believe Revenant is not comparable to the “more traditional” frontline classes is it’s access to stability. The main access being the trait Unwavering Avoidance paired with Enhanced Bulwark. I’m not saying these traits are bad, it’s just that pairing this at the end of a dodge roll means that you have to waste a dodge roll before the actual engagement before you can reaper any benefit from the dodger roll itself. You cannot dodge through a Static Field, Unsteady Ground, or Line of Warding which are the most common interrupts in a zerg vs. zerg setting. By dodging away from these puts you further away from the melee train.This means that you have to depend on the guardians for reliable pre-engagement stability pushing one of the meta classes out of the line-up (I say you push out ele, but the better option would be to replace the ele with another guard, making a GGWNN set-up because Rev is just not as good as guard for giving stab).
While there are more reasons I really want to hear what the general consensus is, maybe someone could change my mind. Just curious!

Revenant is capable of filling both backline and frontline roles fairly seamlessly.

Base Revenant is mostly only good for back line duty. It offers very little to groups outside of damage and should focus primarily on damage in a Deva/Invo/Retri Shiro/Jalis Hammer/Staff build (so many slashes).

However Herald is more than capable of holding it’s own on the front line. The staff offers a large number of front line viable tools with block, aoe heal/cleanse/blast, and the ability to use it’s surge as an evade/leap to keep up. Boons are able to fill anything missing but really the prime boost is the 50% boon duration for your party which greatly helps any part you’re plugged into. For example in a front line party those Might stacks from Empower last even longer as well as the ability to provide infinite Fury for your team as well. The most noticeable difference is the increased duration to Stability which lasts a lot longer during an engagement with the boon duration increase. In addition Hammer loses no advantages when put in melee range and in fact only does better as CORuin often times acts like a Shot Gun blast capable of hitting many more targets when up front and things like Projectile Absorb are also more useful when at the front. Also when paired up with Jalis, you also have access to an AOE -50% damage taken for all party members which is pretty kitten powerful when you get into it.

Your stability argument is flawed because really no class in this game gets enough Stability on their own. Even Warriors only get Balanced Stance (self only). Generally speaking every front line group is going to need 2 Guardians to function properly in heavy CC because Arena Net refuses to see the problem (CC’s with unlimited ability to do CC) or do anything about it (give them limited charges or more classes with more Stability). With Warrior in the party, for banners, that leaves 2 open slots. Traditionally you put your Necromancers in these 2 slots because they’re the only class (in GWEN) that, by itself, gets zero stability (Elementalists can run triple cantrip and be 100% fine in their own party).

Really the problem is going to be is that ANet introduced all these new front line classes. Reaper. Scrapper. Herald. The reality comes back to that limited sources of Stability with Guardians being the only class in the game capable of delivering it so ultimately everything is bottlenecked by them. This puts those “2 slots” I talked about heavily contested by other classes between Necros, Reapers, Scrappers, Warriors, Heralds, etc. However as far as group contribution goes, to my knowledge, Herald is the only one that actually contributes back to the group and isn’t just riding along leeching stability due to access to any number of permanent duration boons but also by massively boosting boon duration for everyone in that party.

Kodiak.3281:

Your stability argument is flawed because really no class in this game gets enough Stability on their own. Even Warriors only get Balanced Stance (self only). Generally speaking every front line group is going to need 2 Guardians to function properly in heavy CC because Arena Net refuses to see the problem (CC’s with unlimited ability to do CC) or do anything about it (give them limited charges or more classes with more Stability). With Warrior in the party, for banners, that leaves 2 open slots. Traditionally you put your Necromancers in these 2 slots because they’re the only class (in GWEN) that, by itself, gets zero stability (Elementalists can run triple cantrip and be 100% fine in their own party).

Fair points, but please look at the facts before you claim my argument is flawed. to say Balanced Stance from warrior is comparable to the level of stability application that a rev can get is a bit mis-leading, Balanced stance is a reactive stun break with swiftenss and 5 stability stacks for 8 seconds. If the devs made your dodge roll on rev a stun break then yes we can have this conversation but as it is, it doesn’t change my argument or point to a flaw in my dialogue. It’s not “The limited acess to stab” it’s “How the stab is applied”

You make very valid points but I have to ask would taking rev frontline just to be a boon extender really make it viable as compared to midline or backline? why? where, in your opinion, which you did not answer from what I read, does the rev fall into being the most useful? Still a very thoughtful response, thanks!

Manarain.7940:

Fair points, but please look at the facts before you claim my argument is flawed. to say Balanced Stance from warrior is comparable to the level of stability application that a rev can get is a bit mis-leading, Balanced stance is a reactive stun break with swiftenss and 5 stability stacks for 8 seconds. If the devs made your dodge roll on rev a stun break then yes we can have this conversation but as it is, it doesn’t change my argument or point to a flaw in my dialogue. It’s not “The limited acess to stab” it’s “How the stab is applied”

Speaking of looking at the facts, I never at any point claim that Warrior’s Balanced Stance is comparable to the level of stability application that a Revenant can get. What I said was that Warriors “only” get Balanced Stance, which even despite everything you list is not enough by itself to be functional in WvW and still ultimately requires a Guardian. Unless you are filling the group with 4 Warriors and 1 Guardian, that means you will still need a second Guardian for Stability to cover Stability for everyone because Guardians are the only class that are capable of generating two AOE Stabilities at this time on reasonable cool downs (which removes Tempest Armor of Earth + Heat Sync) and a useful form of Stability (which removes Revenant Jalis Inspiring Reinforcements).

Manarain.7940:

You make very valid points but I have to ask would taking rev frontline just to be a boon extender really make it viable as compared to midline or backline? why? where, in your opinion, which you did not answer from what I read, does the rev fall into being the most useful? Still a very thoughtful response, thanks!

I really only try to discuss the facts of the matter and let people form their own opinions.

Back line Revenant largely plays like a janky Necromancer at this time. The only reliable stun break is in Shiro with Riposting Shadows. So when you get caught by Static, and you will, the only option is to retreat backwards usually which puts you into an odd position at times depending on how WvW is going. Going Shiro means you have a weaker heal which if paired with Glint means no Retribution and/or Invocation as well as not having access to a strong flat heal. Glint’s heal can be unreliable if you don’t have it up and prepped especially in 3 way battles when the server lags, it never will prep/activate and you’ll die. This largely leaves Jalis as your alternative which is largely useless for back line but will give you more access to stun break with Rite and minor Condi management with Soothing Stone.

The biggest issue is the Hammer itself. There are a large number of bugs for Hammer that when in bad scenarios can basically leave you without DPS. Roy is aware of these but I am not 100% hopeful for a fix by live. Issues like damage not going to the full display area (or 1200 range) for CORuin as well as Phase Smash not working at all on the Z axis leaves you with some very limited options. I’ve seen some defense fights where you hold the top of the stairs and you simply can’t fire down because CORuin actually stops after the first effect due to the incline (you must be on an incline/stairs for it to go all the way down which puts you into haze range). Now when the damage is there, it’s totally there and it’s rocking. I’ve done up to 14k hits on people cause it got timed perfectly and they got hit twice with CORuin and instantly downed.

Kodiak.3281:

Manarain.7940:

Fair points, but please look at the facts before you claim my argument is flawed. to say Balanced Stance from warrior is comparable to the level of stability application that a rev can get is a bit mis-leading, Balanced stance is a reactive stun break with swiftenss and 5 stability stacks for 8 seconds. If the devs made your dodge roll on rev a stun break then yes we can have this conversation but as it is, it doesn’t change my argument or point to a flaw in my dialogue. It’s not “The limited acess to stab” it’s “How the stab is applied”

Speaking of looking at the facts, I never at any point claim that Warrior’s Balanced Stance is comparable to the level of stability application that a Revenant can get. What I said was that Warriors “only” get Balanced Stance, which even despite everything you list is not enough by itself to be functional in WvW and still ultimately requires a Guardian. Unless you are filling the group with 4 Warriors and 1 Guardian, that means you will still need a second Guardian for Stability to cover Stability for everyone because Guardians are the only class that are capable of generating two AOE Stabilities at this time on reasonable cool downs (which removes Tempest Armor of Earth + Heat Sync) and a useful form of Stability (which removes Revenant Jalis Inspiring Reinforcements).

Manarain.7940:

You make very valid points but I have to ask would taking rev frontline just to be a boon extender really make it viable as compared to midline or backline? why? where, in your opinion, which you did not answer from what I read, does the rev fall into being the most useful? Still a very thoughtful response, thanks!

I really only try to discuss the facts of the matter and let people form their own opinions.

Back line Revenant largely plays like a janky Necromancer at this time. The only reliable stun break is in Shiro with Riposting Shadows. So when you get caught by Static, and you will, the only option is to retreat backwards usually which puts you into an odd position at times depending on how WvW is going. Going Shiro means you have a weaker heal which if paired with Glint means no Retribution and/or Invocation as well as not having access to a strong flat heal. Glint’s heal can be unreliable if you don’t have it up and prepped especially in 3 way battles when the server lags, it never will prep/activate and you’ll die. This largely leaves Jalis as your alternative which is largely useless for back line but will give you more access to stun break with Rite and minor Condi management with Soothing Stone.

The biggest issue is the Hammer itself. There are a large number of bugs for Hammer that when in bad scenarios can basically leave you without DPS. Roy is aware of these but I am not 100% hopeful for a fix by live. Issues like damage not going to the full display area (or 1200 range) for CORuin as well as Phase Smash not working at all on the Z axis leaves you with some very limited options. I’ve seen some defense fights where you hold the top of the stairs and you simply can’t fire down because CORuin actually stops after the first effect due to the incline (you must be on an incline/stairs for it to go all the way down which puts you into haze range). Now when the damage is there, it’s totally there and it’s rocking. I’ve done up to 14k hits on people cause it got timed perfectly and they got hit twice with CORuin and instantly downed.

So…. is your argument that it’s not a WvW class since it doesn’t fit into the current paradigm?

Manarain.7940:

So…. is your argument that it’s not a WvW class since it doesn’t fit into the current paradigm?

Again, I don’t have an argument. I have mechanical information of how it works based on around 60-80 hours across 4 Beta Weekends with Revenant (2 normal Rev, 2 Herald) in Tier 1 WvW. It’s up to you draw your own conclusions based on those mechanics of whether or not it will or won’t fit for your group and server Tier.

Aaaaaand with that we can conclude this discussion