conditions durability and cleanse
envoy of exuberance doesnt have to get nerfed in its healing. Its already low. Shield is mostly useless. Adding a cleansing is a needed thing to get it useable.
And Staff 2 needs faster casting.
Shield 4 could use faster cast time and cleanse 1 condi while sending it away and on return. Shield 5 could cleanse condition with each pulse and get cd reduced to 20sec.
Impossible odds could transfer condi back to opponent with 1sec interval etc.
They trying too hard to make rev feel unique when hes not and the class only pays heavy price for it.
I would honestly remove resistance and make rev immune to conditions under Mallyx elite+bring back condi copy. Atm its useless skill outside of dps boost in pve.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
(edited by Burtnik.5218)
the only problem with putting stuff on shield is that it won’t work with kalla
the only problem with putting stuff on shield is that it won’t work with kalla
Who care about useless elite anyway that doesnt even make any sense cus Kalla was using greatsword? Lets just pretend they didnt gave rev an elite spec this xpac. Shield is horrible and its needs buffs, just like core rev itself. Renejoke is a different subject
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
With all the boon strip/corruption coming, I’m becoming more and more convinced that Rev’s self resistance needs to become a unique effect rather than a boon. It would be much easier if we were given reliable cleansing, but Anet refuses to do this.
If Embrace the Darkness made you invulnerable to conditions, then I’d live without the condition copy, even though I think it needs to come back as well, rather than be used as a trait that can be suicide to try to make use of.
envoy of exuberance doesnt have to get nerfed in its healing. Its already low. Shield is mostly useless. Adding a cleansing is a needed thing to get it useable.
And Staff 2 needs faster casting.
Agreed. However if they want to reduce the healing on that, they can increase it on Shield 5, so that the rooting makes sense.
+1 for this thread however.
I think it’s fundamental to understand that the core issue here isn’t the Resistance Boon in Mallyx or the fact that said boon will have more counters in POF.
The most important thing we need understood is our cleanse/healing option of Ventari is so unwieldy in so many scenarios we don’t even see it as a viable option that we have come to rely on Mallyx/Resistance as our only viable option to manage conditions
What we should be pushing for is to make the Ventari legend actually usable. We need a way, be it by trait or base line build, for us as players to be counted as the tablet. Ventari already has a wide number of condition cleansing, healing and defensive capabilities that we simply can’t take advantage of because of having to micro manage the tablet in scenarios where micro management is punished and/or not rewarded. This effectively takes one of our most needed core sets (condi cleanse/management) and makes it useless in the areas where we need it the most (PvP and WvW).
The most sensible solution to this, to me, is to simply make it so you carry it on your back and if you want you can use the heal key to move the Tablet to somewhere else like you can currently, and pressing the heal button again will bring it back to you like a boomerang. I don’t care how this is accomplished, be it by a GM trait in the Salvation line or otherwise.
However, simply put, we have the solution to conditions and cleansing built into our character we just need it in a state that’s functionally usable for the game modes we need it in.
I think it’s fundamental to understand that the core issue here isn’t the Resistance Boon in Mallyx or the fact that said boon will have more counters in POF.
The most important thing we need understood is our cleanse/healing option of Ventari is so unwieldy in so many scenarios we don’t even see it as a viable option that we have come to rely on Mallyx/Resistance as our only viable option to manage conditions
What we should be pushing for is to make the Ventari legend actually usable. We need a way, be it by trait or base line build, for us as players to be counted as the tablet. Ventari already has a wide number of condition cleansing, healing and defensive capabilities that we simply can’t take advantage of because of having to micro manage the tablet in scenarios where micro management is punished and/or not rewarded. This effectively takes one of our most needed core sets (condi cleanse/management) and makes it useless in the areas where we need it the most (PvP and WvW).
The most sensible solution to this, to me, is to simply make it so you carry it on your back and if you want you can use the heal key to move the Tablet to somewhere else like you can currently, and pressing the heal button again will bring it back to you like a boomerang. I don’t care how this is accomplished, be it by a GM trait in the Salvation line or otherwise.
However, simply put, we have the solution to conditions and cleansing built into our character we just need it in a state that’s functionally usable for the game modes we need it in.
maybe for hot spec ventari can used with cleanse but even with hot when i see 16 stack of poison just from thief and necro with bleed and 7 cover conditions you cant do anything against it.
like almost every other class we need cleanse on weapon or with our mechanism.
i see anet push renegade to to bruiser role . think with jallis and kalla you can have 33%, 50%, 20% reduce dmg from conditions but not cleanse at all with any weapon but the staff.
in a game that 5 sec ticking is important we need to be able to cleanse more or gain more nrg faster
I think it’s fundamental to understand that the core issue here isn’t the Resistance Boon in Mallyx or the fact that said boon will have more counters in POF.
The most important thing we need understood is our cleanse/healing option of Ventari is so unwieldy in so many scenarios we don’t even see it as a viable option that we have come to rely on Mallyx/Resistance as our only viable option to manage conditions
What we should be pushing for is to make the Ventari legend actually usable. We need a way, be it by trait or base line build, for us as players to be counted as the tablet. Ventari already has a wide number of condition cleansing, healing and defensive capabilities that we simply can’t take advantage of because of having to micro manage the tablet in scenarios where micro management is punished and/or not rewarded. This effectively takes one of our most needed core sets (condi cleanse/management) and makes it useless in the areas where we need it the most (PvP and WvW).
The most sensible solution to this, to me, is to simply make it so you carry it on your back and if you want you can use the heal key to move the Tablet to somewhere else like you can currently, and pressing the heal button again will bring it back to you like a boomerang. I don’t care how this is accomplished, be it by a GM trait in the Salvation line or otherwise.
However, simply put, we have the solution to conditions and cleansing built into our character we just need it in a state that’s functionally usable for the game modes we need it in.
A lot of people suggested some time back that they would like to have the tablet tethered to you as the caster as well. Personally, I would rather have a different set of skills available when the tablet isn’t summoned.
If we were given 4 new skills while the tablet is gone, then it would not only solve the issue if being helpless without the tablet, although we would still be out of energy, but it could open up the possibility of having a stun break on the legend, among other things.
I suggested a while back to have a potential damage increase skill for your group while the tablet is gone, but someone mentioned it goes against ventari’s them as a pacifist. Fair enough, but I see no reason not to have a stun break, an upkeep group pulsing condi cleanse, a cripple or immobilizing skill etc, you get the idea.
While the tablet is stowed, the skills are centered around the revenant, and at the tablet while out. None of this would require being hampered by micromanaging or such strict placement, and hopefully it could be versatile enough to find a place in builds where you need cleanse and other support without being such a pain to use.
also a small fix to ventari like the druid have each fragment cleanse 1 condition
also a small fix to ventari like the druid have each fragment cleanse 1 condition
Problem with this is that it will just encourage more tablet shatter spam.
Cleansing Channel: increased from 1 to 2 conditions cleansed on legend swap.
Renewing Wave: Cast time reduced to 1/2 seconds.
Two small changes that would really help.
Lupi solos on 9/9 professions
Wost Engi NA
Cleansing Channel: increased from 1 to 2 conditions cleansed on legend swap.
I second this.
This and condi cleanse on shield would really help survive the PoF condi madness.
Also let me address that “condi damage reduction” while being usually very costly (both in Energy and CD), doesn’t do anything against things like Vulnerability, Chill, Crippl, Weakness and so on.
Condi damage reduction, even when at 100%, is nothing compared to condi cleanse
(edited by Kidel.2057)
maybe for hot spec ventari can used with cleanse but even with hot when i see 16 stack of poison just from thief and necro with bleed and 7 cover conditions you cant do anything against it.
like almost every other class we need cleanse on weapon or with our mechanism.
i see anet push renegade to to bruiser role . think with jallis and kalla you can have 33%, 50%, 20% reduce dmg from conditions but not cleanse at all with any weapon but the staff.
in a game that 5 sec ticking is important we need to be able to cleanse more or gain more nrg faster
I mean if you can show me the class/abilities that can deal with 16 stack of poison/bleed with 7 cover conditions by all means go ahead. There are very, very few classes who have that level of condition management and none via weapon. In most cases in order to manage conditions classes are forced to spec into specific lines (water ele, alchemy engineer, ranger wilderness survival, etc) or use very specific utilities to manage them (elixirs on Engie, shouts on Guardian, etc etc etc) for the level of repetition they get applied.
When you compare every other class weapon selections you’ll actually see we have roughly the same condi cleanse as most other classes and almost none as fast as cool down as we get with Staff 4. I mean Ele’s Cleansing Wave is twice the cool down and isn’t even a blast finisher.
What you will see when you compare our class to others however is that our entire Condition cleansing line is tied to a rediculous tablet mechanic that requires additional micro management just to get a basic class function. In that line we can cleanse 3 conditions every 5 seconds, on top of staff every 15 seconds, which is some of the highest condition cleansing in the game available…if you’re next to the tablet. If we address the tablet issue, we make our whole cleansing line and abilities available which would literally fix everything and put us on the same ground as everyone else.
Most classes can casually cleanse even on offensive builds. No need to even mention Druid and its 10 conditions cleanse. I get that Druid is a healing spec of course. However you can go conditions DPS on Druid and still get all the conditions cleanse you want, while Revenant is more limited by design. Given that it’s more limited, it should get some benefits
Most classes can casually cleanse even on offensive builds. No need to even mention Druid and its 10 conditions cleanse. I get that Druid is a healing spec of course. However you can go conditions DPS on Druid and still get all the conditions cleanse you want, while Revenant is more limited by design. Given that it’s more limited, it should get some benefits
Again, if you actually take the time to go out and look at the other classes you’ll see that the “casual cleanse” that other classes get generally speaking is little different to what the Revenant can already do with Cleansing Channel.
The main two differences remain here between Revenants and other classes:
1. They have the ability to mix in their condi cleanses into their builds because of utility choice where as we have to take an entire set of utilities for condi/cleanse/healing that are tied to a clunky mechanic that is ill fitted for SPvP and WvW where those abilities are crucial.
2. More of an aside, we lack a “freedom” style trait/setup where we can reduce the effects of immobilize/cripple/chill that many other classes seem to have under specific conditions.
I was hoping someone was going to bring Druids up. Druids, in normal form, have the same Condi cleanse as most other classes and zero weapon condi cleanse just immobilize/cripple/chill removal but that doesn’t do anything against the stated case of “16 points stacked up” on us. They also have 2 more condi cleanses on Glyphs but only in Celestial Avatar form. Now they also get this form, but I think taking a class’ elite specialization and using it as a baseline comparison for every other class is faulty.
The argument that we’re not equal to the best healing mode class in the game (and even then in Ventari, with the tablet, and staff, and Salvation it’s pretty debateable…) therefore we’re garbage is just not going to work. When you present problems you want fixes to you have to present realistic problems and realistic solutions. If we present false exaggerations and don’t give credit where credit is actually due they’ll see us as lying and simply ignore us.
Therefore by acknowledging they already gave us tools to deal with conditions (Ventari) we admit we have the tools but that tool is poorly suited for the game modes where we need them the most (SPvP and WvW) so we need the tools changed to better represent the needs of those modes to stay competitive (tablet centered on us). This also gives us the trade off of making us have to use a defensive legend (ventari) if we want the benefit’s of it’s defenses (condi cleanse/heals) without keeping us in power through multiple offensive legends. If that is not enough of a trade off, by making us take a trait line that in turn works removes another part of our offense (and is on par with other classes) in favor of having those kinds of defenses. We give up something, we gain something. That’s the essence of balance.
As you said we have no means of mixing our condi cleanse with any build, with the exception of Cleansing Channel that is a bit luckluster, not only because it’s just 1 condition, but also because that cooldown is shared with energy management and, usually, stun break.
Also agt the beginning Revenant traded the “weakness to condi” with a very good spot as burst dps, condi dps and a very strong position in the pvp meta. Now Revenant is basically “balanced” in positive feats, but still weak to conditions.
And that’s all pre-PoF, so even before the condi creep and boonrip extravaganza.
That’s only half of what I said. We also have the ability to choose to bring Condi Cleanse, but it’s tied to a clunky and generally ineffective legend for competitive game modes. The difference is that other classes aren’t tied to clunky mechanics. I don’t have to summon a water elemental or be near it to cleanse myself on an Ele. Druids don’t control a movable flower that all their cleanses are tied around.
Furthermore most other classes’ cleanse mechanics while remaining offensive typically are 1-2 condi cleanses and generally on swap timers or similarly time gated effects. For example Cleansing Wave on an Elementalist or Strength of the Fallen on Guardian both stuck on set interval times (attuning to water or a 10 second timer). Many other condition cleansing traits on other classes are tied to specific utilities (IE: Use this type of ability, remove X conditions) which force them to bring sets of utilities themselves for similar advantages. So there’s a parity there you’re not giving credit to.
You are 100% right that the weakness to conditions should be addressed, especially with them balancing towards such a condition heavy meta. As I originally pointed out we’ve largely coasted on the Resistance Boon to work as a serviceable option the boonhate we’re seeing with new POF specs is going to render that largely useless. This means we need them to look back into our original method they gave us to dealing with conditions, Ventari, and make it a battle ready option that isn’t so clunky in a variety of game modes.
I don’t agree on the fact that we should equip a healing oriented legend to be just functional. Sure that would be a good option for heavy cleanse, but for QoL improvements just having cleanse on Shield-4 and double effect on Cleansing Channel would be decent. Still subpar, but decent.
ele – has 12 abilities which cleanse 23 condition he can rotate between cd and diamond skin.
guard – has 5 abilities but block also remove them
druid – 1 amazing ability, signet, CA spamming seed of life
rev – staff – 2, ventari 3, and EE probably with 10 nrg or 20 so another 1-2.
this is why ele is meta. he is the best to counter condition dmg
the problem is not with condition rather the huge amount of spamming them.
i have many stack so i cleanse and boom i have them again so fast. so what the point?
also power rev cannot take ventari just to cleanse 3 condition
if rev had diamond skin trait it would allow it to build nrg. like if you above 75% nrg you cleanse 1 condition every sec. it will push the rev to play defense and save nrg so its trade off.
or give the ability to regen nrg some way
in 5 sec cd we can die from conditions dmg.
Kidel you dont even play in pvp and you are part of the reason why rev is in current state the way it is now. You been really loud about band aid fix in form of wep swap.
Its been 2 years since we talked and had “forum wars” between us yet you still dont understand that everything Anet did back then (dev on forum etc) was nothing but commercial move to get our $. Its time to stop asking for stuff that will never happen as long wep swap is in place. Rev will either get redesing or will remain in current broken state. Accept it or move on like i did.
You gonna disappear like you did last time anyway while rest of us will be frustrated.. again. Well maybe not considering that devs dont care.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
I don’t agree on the fact that we should equip a healing oriented legend to be just functional. Sure that would be a good option for heavy cleanse, but for QoL improvements just having cleanse on Shield-4 and double effect on Cleansing Channel would be decent. Still subpar, but decent.
Except literally every other class in the game has to equip a healing/condition cleansing oriented set of traits and/or utilities to be considered what we call functional. No one has shown a single class that can go full offense and get the same level of cleansing that you’re asking for. You can point out Druids (a healing trait line) or Elementalist Water or Earth lines but in every case they have to dedicate a significant portion of their character to defense in order to outlast their opponents. The only significant difference is ours is tied to a clunky Tablet that just isn’t realistic to micro in competitive environments where there’s high movement.
ele – has 12 abilities which cleanse 23 condition he can rotate between cd and diamond skin.
guard – has 5 abilities but block also remove them
druid – 1 amazing ability, signet, CA spamming seed of life
rev – staff – 2, ventari 3, and EE probably with 10 nrg or 20 so another 1-2.this is why ele is meta. he is the best to counter condition dmg
An Elementalist has to dedicate 3 lines (Earth, Water, and Tempest) to defense in order to manage conditions as much as you claim and is forced to take Shouts to generate regen (Auras) in order to condi cleanse on top of using a Cleansing Sigil (which we can match with weapon and legend swap every 8-10s). The shouts are also used with Soldier Runes to clear even more Conditions. The bulk of the cleansing comes from aura generation which has no ICD on it’s Regen as well as Cleansing Water which also has no ICD but only have 4 direct auras to call upon and 2 auto generated ones all of which have around a 20-40s CD.
The point being is you’re talking about a character who is 100% spec’d for defense and condition removal. Are you spec’d Retribution/Mallyx, Salvation and Herald? Are you using Sword/Shield and Staff with Ventari and Jalis/Mallyx? Are you using 2 Cleansing Runes? Are you using a rune set that clears Condis?
You can’t willy nilly throw things out. Take an effort to understand what’s being done before you talk about parity. More importantly, why would you expect every class to be equal? That’s not how most MMO games are balanced. Not everyone is going to have the same damage, the same survivability, the same condi cleanse, the same healing or the same condi damage as every other class.
The best chance you have at successfully getting something changed is to present the problem our class is having, in a vacuum without comparing our classes to XYZ. The second you say, “Well Revenant can’t clear condis like an Elementalist” any game Developer is going to ask, “Well why don’t you play an Elementalist then?” Oh wait, that’s right, it’s because Elementalist has the lowest HP, lowest armor and if they don’t 100% focus spec into defenses they get killed in less than a second and if you’re bad you’re going to die super fast regardless of spec! You can’t compare classes. There’s literally zero ground to start from because not all classes are created equal.
The thing is though… Taking Ventari to be able to cleanse conditions isn’t a real answer. Even if Ventari was great at cleansing condi’s in PvP (it isn’t), it’d still be an insulting option… No other class has to sacrifice 50% of their build/utilities in order to counter one of the most common things in the game.
We’re already sort of in that boat by taking Mallyx for resistance… But AT LEAST Mallyx has offensive capabilities, boon striping, point control, and reasonable energy costs. So you’re not making yourself completely useless just to be able to deal with something that will face in 100% of the matches you play. But when Spellbreakers and Scourges enter the game, Mallyx isn’t going to be an option anymore.
It’s ridiculous… Just give Rev’s cleanse on their weapons, or make Cleansing Chanel remove more than one every ten seconds, or something. I know every class has their weaknesses, and that’s fine… But conditions don’t even make sense as Revenant’s weakness anymore since our amazing burst was nerfed away. Back when Rev’s could kill a squishy in a single combo, it was at least balanced to be weak to conditions, because if you failed to end the fight with your burst, you got punished by the growing condition stacks on you. But now, you open on somebody, get condi bombed, and they have ample opportunity to get away while you stop everything to deal with those condi’s, assuming you even kitten your build to bring them.
And finally, stop giving us traits and skills that reduce incoming condition damage for limited periods of time. These are completely ineffective compared to cleanse and they are locked behind GRANDMASTER traits and elite skills ta boot. (Not going to talk about the Kalla spirit, because spirits don’t even count in their current state.) The biggest problem with these traits is that A) they’re temporary, so when they end, you just die because B.) you kitten your build so much by taking them that you aren’t able to force an opponent into playing defensively so they just get to go hamm and stack more and more conditions on you.
Taking Ventari to cleanse conditions is literally the exact same answer that every other class has. Again, by all means show me a wholly offensive build with condition management but simply put you aren’t going to find it. Every single build that deals with conditions at what people consider a “reasonable rate” either gives us weapons, utilities, trait lines and usually multiples of those. To expect that we don’t need to do the same is absurd and going to be ignored by the Devs.
Yes, Mallyx was a decent work around to the issue and we had our fun with it. Good times. However since Boon Strip just became a fairly common thing with POF we’re going to need to find another way. The only other sensible way is to ask for the same parity as other classes and making our cleanse/heal utilities (Ventari) more functional in highly mobile and active PvP scenarios.
Asking for additional cleanse on weapons when we already have similar condition cleanse as every other class isn’t going to go anywhere. You might as well just ask to be immune to conditions at all times because it has literally the same chance of success: Zero. There’s absolutely no precedent in this game for the kinds of things you people are asking for. Everyone who can deal with conditions has to use the tools their class got to deal with them and what we need is our tools we did actually get to deal with them to be put into a more usable state for PvP and WvW scenarios.
Taking Ventari to cleanse conditions is literally the exact same answer that every other class has. Again, by all means show me a wholly offensive build with condition management but simply put you aren’t going to find it.
Both DP and Condi Thief, Power and Condi Zerker, Any Reaper build, Phantasmashatter Chrono, Any tempest build to varying degrees, Meditrapper, Scrapper… All of these meta builds have a way to deal with conditions without deliberately sacrificing loads of offense.
An Elementalist has to dedicate 3 lines (Earth, Water, and Tempest) to defense in order to manage conditions as much as you claim and is forced to take Shouts to generate regen (Auras) in order to condi cleanse on top of using a Cleansing Sigil (which we can match with weapon and legend swap every 8-10s). The shouts are also used with Soldier Runes to clear even more Conditions. The bulk of the cleansing comes from aura generation which has no ICD on it’s Regen as well as Cleansing Water which also has no ICD but only have 4 direct auras to call upon and 2 auto generated ones all of which have around a 20-40s CD.
The point being is you’re talking about a character who is 100% spec’d for defense and condition removal. Are you spec’d Retribution/Mallyx, Salvation and Herald? Are you using Sword/Shield and Staff with Ventari and Jalis/Mallyx? Are you using 2 Cleansing Runes? Are you using a rune set that clears Condis?
You can’t willy nilly throw things out. Take an effort to understand what’s being done before you talk about parity. More importantly, why would you expect every class to be equal? That’s not how most MMO games are balanced. Not everyone is going to have the same damage, the same survivability, the same condi cleanse, the same healing or the same condi damage as every other class.
The best chance you have at successfully getting something changed is to present the problem our class is having, in a vacuum without comparing our classes to XYZ. The second you say, “Well Revenant can’t clear condis like an Elementalist” any game Developer is going to ask, “Well why don’t you play an Elementalist then?” Oh wait, that’s right, it’s because Elementalist has the lowest HP, lowest armor and if they don’t 100% focus spec into defenses they get killed in less than a second and if you’re bad you’re going to die super fast regardless of spec! You can’t compare classes. There’s literally zero ground to start from because not all classes are created equal.
ventari takign salvation, jallis take retribution and herald. 3 trait line which offer support . same as ele. so what is your point exactly?
in this game ppl need more cleanse ability – its a fact. not to be same by other ele rather to be useful as anet state each class can play each role.
to build meta build you have to compare it to others – fact. if you do less good your build wont be either. thus you wont be able to play such role.
atm revenant suffer with each role with less to none condi cleanse
mallyx is not that good also as your boons easily rip, removed, stolen and nrg cost is too high to maintain it
cut
Personal attacks aside, weapon swap was the best thing that could happen to revenant. Being free to swap between hammer and sword without also swapping legend, or being free to swap legend for break stun or energy without swapping weapon is an upgrade, a straight upgrade with no counter effects, on what Revenant was before that suggestion. And was useful in many scenarios.
Without weaponswap Revenant would have had another free limitation with no actual benefit since we don’t have kits or conjured weapons.
But that’s an old argument and it’s useless to talk about it.
cut
Personal attacks aside, weapon swap was the best thing that could happen to revenant. Being free to swap between hammer and sword without also swapping legend, or being free to swap legend for break stun or energy without swapping weapon is an upgrade, a straight upgrade with no counter effects, on what Revenant was before that suggestion. And was useful in many scenarios.
Without weaponswap Revenant would have had another free limitation with no actual benefit since we don’t have kits or conjured weapons.But that’s an old argument and it’s useless to talk about it.
Tell me how engi and ele are able to function without wep swap. Thats right, they were properly designed, rev is not. Its a core desing issue and till they dont fix it rev will continue to suffer. Wep swap was the worst solution possible, cheap temp fix which caused far more problems. What had to be done was a proper redesing to give us a mechanic to make up for the lack of wep swap. That didnt happen at all tho due to everyone screaming for wep swap.. now here we are, 2 years after nerfs with useless class and questionable desing choices.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
Both DP and Condi Thief, Power and Condi Zerker, Any Reaper build, Phantasmashatter Chrono, Any tempest build to varying degrees, Meditrapper, Scrapper… All of these meta builds have a way to deal with conditions without deliberately sacrificing loads of offense.
DP thief build has 2 condi cleanses and has to take 2/3 utilities to cleanse condis on a 30 and 50 second cool down and still ends up taking cleansing. Zero weapon cleanses. How is that different than having Staff’s 2 condi removes on a 15 second timer and taking Ventari to cleanse off tablet other than the tablet is bad and clunky to use? S/D seems to take the evasion removal one, but as this has a 1s ICD it’s not going to remove the kinds of persistant, stacked and covered conditions people are talking about.
Warrior/Zerkers literally rely on Resistance like people are complaining Mallyx currently does in this thread and will end up facing the same problem soon as well.
I mean if you’re going to bother stating classes and combinations, at least do your own leg work and recognize these classes have no more condition removal than our own base class. The tools are out there. Educate yourself. This is the #1 problem I keep talking about false claims and poor expectations. You don’t even know what other classes are capable of but have this mythical idea that everyone else but Rev has endless tools to deal with Conditions while remaining 100% offensive in their traits, weapons and utilities. It’s just factually wrong.
ventari takign salvation, jallis take retribution and herald. 3 trait line which offer support . same as ele. so what is your point exactly?
in this game ppl need more cleanse ability – its a fact. not to be same by other ele rather to be useful as anet state each class can play each role.
to build meta build you have to compare it to others – fact. if you do less good your build wont be either. thus you wont be able to play such role.atm revenant suffer with each role with less to none condi cleanse
mallyx is not that good also as your boons easily rip, removed, stolen and nrg cost is too high to maintain it
My point is that you can’t point to another class who is overstacking Condition Removal and playing 100% defensively then turn around and demand that we get similar tools in our offensive builds. That’s not how things work. I mean you can do it, but don’t be surprised when 1, 3 or 6 months down the line when they’ve completely ignored your unreasonable request.
What I’ve shown, repeatedly, in this topic with multiple facts and examples on classes that the Revenant has similar condition cleansing potential as other classes. The big difference being is that ours is locked behind a clunky tablet mechanic that is poor for PvP/WvW. It can be used there, it is used there, but it is still clunky for general use.
When you guys talk about other classes it becomes problematic because your arguments can be completely unfounded. Look at that last guy who rattled off all sorts of builds but when you actually go to those classes, look at their builds, and every single time you either see someone 100% dedicated to condi cleansing and defense/heal or you find someone who has just as limited tools as we do. You guys clearly don’t play enough of the other classes to understand them or their mechanics to do an objective or unbiased comparison.
Why is that bad? Because it means the arguments you make end up being non-fact based and when the Developer reads that feedback: “Revenant has no condition cleanse.” they’re going to pull up the skills and look at them and say, “Well no, that’s wrong, next topic.” You have to make compelling arguments that make the developers think about the scenario. If you misrepresent the facts of the scenario, they will think about it at all.
How is ventari considered a good way to cleanse conditions for anyone not running a healing build? The legends work by changing your role for at least ten seconds. Why in the middle of a fight when I’m using an offensive build would I want to switch to ventari to clear my conditions just to sit around doing nothing for the remaining time until I can get mallyx or shiro back. Maybe in low end pve this works, but for high end pve and pvp this is pointless and useless. Literally takes away so much from your damage. Putting ventari on a build other than healer makes the whole build pointless. The legends themselves are too one dimensional and literally let you only do one thing for ten seconds.
ventari takign salvation, jallis take retribution and herald. 3 trait line which offer support . same as ele. so what is your point exactly?
in this game ppl need more cleanse ability – its a fact. not to be same by other ele rather to be useful as anet state each class can play each role.
to build meta build you have to compare it to others – fact. if you do less good your build wont be either. thus you wont be able to play such role.atm revenant suffer with each role with less to none condi cleanse
mallyx is not that good also as your boons easily rip, removed, stolen and nrg cost is too high to maintain it
My point is that you can’t point to another class who is overstacking Condition Removal and playing 100% defensively then turn around and demand that we get similar tools in our offensive builds. That’s not how things work. I mean you can do it, but don’t be surprised when 1, 3 or 6 months down the line when they’ve completely ignored your unreasonable request.
What I’ve shown, repeatedly, in this topic with multiple facts and examples on classes that the Revenant has similar condition cleansing potential as other classes. The big difference being is that ours is locked behind a clunky tablet mechanic that is poor for PvP/WvW. It can be used there, it is used there, but it is still clunky for general use.
When you guys talk about other classes it becomes problematic because your arguments can be completely unfounded. Look at that last guy who rattled off all sorts of builds but when you actually go to those classes, look at their builds, and every single time you either see someone 100% dedicated to condi cleansing and defense/heal or you find someone who has just as limited tools as we do. You guys clearly don’t play enough of the other classes to understand them or their mechanics to do an objective or unbiased comparison.
Why is that bad? Because it means the arguments you make end up being non-fact based and when the Developer reads that feedback: “Revenant has no condition cleanse.” they’re going to pull up the skills and look at them and say, “Well no, that’s wrong, next topic.” You have to make compelling arguments that make the developers think about the scenario. If you misrepresent the facts of the scenario, they will think about it at all.
man you clearly dont know rev or ventari skills
support rev needs more cleanse, not to say rev needs more cleanse.
i show you a fact of support build with cleanse while rev is the lowest on that tier you insist on your way.
for the dev… revenant needs more cleanse to play the conditions stacking. thief – condi, necro – condi, mesmer condi. just 3 classes which if targeted you are down so fast no matter how cleanse you got.
DP thief build has 2 condi cleanses and has to take 2/3 utilities to cleanse condis on a 30 and 50 second cool down and still ends up taking cleansing. Zero weapon cleanses. How is that different than having Staff’s 2 condi removes on a 15 second timer and taking Ventari to cleanse off tablet other than the tablet is bad and clunky to use? S/D seems to take the evasion removal one, but as this has a 1s ICD it’s not going to remove the kinds of persistant, stacked and covered conditions people are talking about.
Warrior/Zerkers literally rely on Resistance like people are complaining Mallyx currently does in this thread and will end up facing the same problem soon as well.
I mean if you’re going to bother stating classes and combinations, at least do your own leg work and recognize these classes have no more condition removal than our own base class. The tools are out there. Educate yourself. This is the #1 problem I keep talking about false claims and poor expectations. You don’t even know what other classes are capable of but have this mythical idea that everyone else but Rev has endless tools to deal with Conditions while remaining 100% offensive in their traits, weapons and utilities. It’s just factually wrong.
The difference between DP thief’s utility cleanse and staff 4 on revenant are three-fold…
1) Staff 4 can and WILL be interrupted by anyone who has played the game for more than a day. SS and Signet are both instacast and serve other functions as well, which brings us to…
2) Having a utility skill, as opposed to a skill on a purely defensive weapon, that does the same thing is waaaaaaay better (as I said in my original post), because it does not completely negate your ability to apply pressure to an enemy the way switching to staff does. A thief can cleanse those 5 conditions and still be cranking out the damage to force their opponent to play defensively. When a revenant swaps to staff, their dps is insanely nerfed for the next 10 seconds, which just leaves your enemies free to continue pelting you with more and more condis since SotM isn’t even close to scary anymore. Even if all SS and SoA did was cleanse, the fact that you didn’t have to stop dealing damage for those 10 seconds alone would make them better, but a thief will bring Shadowstep and SoA in every game for their other functions—not just their cleanse. So they are sacrificing zero percent of their build to be able to counter conditions.
3) A DP thief has spammable interrupts and endless disengaging tools in their kit, so the same amount of cleanses goes a LOT further on them then it does a rev—especially given how much condition application is unblockable.
As for their traited cleanse on evade, the 1 second ICD is fine… It’s not about cleansing yourself entirely, it’s about resetting the stacks. A few stacks on you is no big deal, it’s when you start getting large stacks where you find yourself in trouble. That’s exactly why Rite of the Great Dwarf, Kalla’s Heal, and the Kalla GM trait are so useless… They don’t prevent your opponents from getting those 10-20 stacks of bleed/torment/confusion on you that a cleanse would have reset.
As I ALREADY said, Mr. Do Your Leg Work, the problem with Ventari is not a clunky tablet, it’s the fact that you have to invest over half your build into it to get the ability to cleanse. It FORCES you to either play a healing/support spec or play as a DPS spec, but without access to enough of your kit to actually kill anyone with.
But yeah, warriors are going to be in the same boat as Mallyx revs after PoF… I guess the devs are hoping their crazy bonus burst and off hand dagger life steal will sustain them through it? I’m sort of thinking that’s what they had in mind for Kalla as well, they’re hoping all the bonus ferocity can carry your dps through being stuck in Ventari.
How is ventari considered a good way to cleanse conditions for anyone not running a healing build?
I said it was the way that Revenants were given to cleanse conditions, especially when directly compared to full on healing builds like the Elementalist. I’m not sure why you expect to have condition cleanse on our offense. Other classes either have to bring a healer line and somehow manage to keep damage going I’m sure you’ll figure it out.
man you clearly dont know rev or ventari skills
support rev needs more cleanse, not to say rev needs more cleanse.
i show you a fact of support build with cleanse while rev is the lowest on that tier you insist on your way.
for the dev… revenant needs more cleanse to play the conditions stacking. thief – condi, necro – condi, mesmer condi. just 3 classes which if targeted you are down so fast no matter how cleanse you got.
I do know the skills quite well.
What I insist on is trying to get something actually accomplished. You can literally go to any class forum and read threads for every single class asking for more power. More condi cleanse. More damage. More survivability. More something. If we start from a flawed or broken misconception about the Revenant then when the Devs do read it they will ignore it with the rest. But if we acknowledge the truth, we do have tools to deal with conditions like Ventari, and state a problem like it’s not very good/handy/wieldy/whatever at dealing with conditions and we need that fixed it’s a much higher likelihood chance of success we’ll actually see something get done.
The difference between DP thief’s utility cleanse and staff 4 on revenant are three-fold…
As for their traited cleanse on evade, the 1 second ICD is fine… It’s not about cleansing yourself entirely, it’s about resetting the stacks. A few stacks on you is no big deal, it’s when you start getting large stacks where you find yourself in trouble. That’s exactly why Rite of the Great Dwarf, Kalla’s Heal, and the Kalla GM trait are so useless… They don’t prevent your opponents from getting those 10-20 stacks of bleed/torment/confusion on you that a cleanse would have reset.
As I ALREADY said, Mr. Do Your Leg Work, the problem with Ventari is not a clunky tablet, it’s the fact that you have to invest over half your build into it to get the ability to cleanse. It FORCES you to either play a healing/support spec or play as a DPS spec, but without access to enough of your kit to actually kill anyone with.
But yeah, warriors are going to be in the same boat as Mallyx revs after PoF… I guess the devs are hoping their crazy bonus burst and off hand dagger life steal will sustain them through it? I’m sort of thinking that’s what they had in mind for Kalla as well, they’re hoping all the bonus ferocity can carry your dps through being stuck in Ventari.
As you quoted, however, I said Ventari Tablet. If you’re going to compare utilities you should do so properly.
So if you’re facing a heavy interrupt opponent switching to Staff wouldn’t be smart like you point out and simply rely on our Condi cleanse utility of Purifying Essence (instant cast, 5 second cool down, 25 energy). Now I’d point out that Ventari removes your point on weapon swapping to staff, but the essence of it is still there. That’s kinda part of playing a swap class like that. We see this with other timed swap classes like Ele when they swap to certain attunements classes dump damage since they know they’re locked out for a bit. Think that will always be there as part of the class design. Finally any Thief just straight up will never have as much condi cleanse as Ventari. 3 conditions every 5 seconds is insane. While their disengagement is superior, that’s thief in a nutshell. Again, why do you expect us to be equal to another class when we all have different setups?
I 100% agree that reduced condition damage is spinning in the mud. I would never argue for more of it. What I do argue for is making our Ventari legend less clunky in high mobility scenarios such as PvP and WvW. If that isn’t enough, we can show examples trying to use the tools they designed for us to deal with conditions and show, factually, it’s not enough.
Most classes end up giving up something to pick particular abilities. Sometimes that’s their trait lines/choices. Sometimes that’s their utility slots. Sometimes that’s their weapon choice. In WvW on my Revenant I have to take a Staff and Mallyx because those are what’s required to function there on the front line. The only point you could really make here is that because most of Revenant abilities are “Legends” they have poor Superior Rune set synergy (IE: You can’t get any Soldier Runes because no line is “Shouts” utilities).
I really have no idea what they were thinking with Kalla. Like I can’t even guess, the whole thing is just…yikes
man you clearly dont know rev or ventari skills
support rev needs more cleanse, not to say rev needs more cleanse.
i show you a fact of support build with cleanse while rev is the lowest on that tier you insist on your way.
for the dev… revenant needs more cleanse to play the conditions stacking. thief – condi, necro – condi, mesmer condi. just 3 classes which if targeted you are down so fast no matter how cleanse you got.
I do know the skills quite well.
What I insist on is trying to get something actually accomplished. You can literally go to any class forum and read threads for every single class asking for more power. More condi cleanse. More damage. More survivability. More something. If we start from a flawed or broken misconception about the Revenant then when the Devs do read it they will ignore it with the rest. But if we acknowledge the truth, we do have tools to deal with conditions like Ventari, and state a problem like it’s not very good/handy/wieldy/whatever at dealing with conditions and we need that fixed it’s a much higher likelihood chance of success we’ll actually see something get done.
so your suggestion is to take ventari with power build?
lets check the nrg cost – 3 cleanse cost 25 nrg – 5 sec cd. you lose ability to disengage like shiro, or use heal as the heal skill with no healing power is useless. so you taking 5 skills just for 1 skills which cleanse…..
so now you will tell me use healing power amulet like mender but than i lose so much direct dmg….
now you get the point?
every other class dont have to sacrifice their whole 5 utilities just for 3-5 condition cleanse even with low cd, as you lose your heal skill, and 4 more utilities.
on thief, warrior,guard, ranger, engi, necro forum they dont ask for more dmg
necro want more stability, ele wants more build to play and not just support
gaurd wants more cover condi the burn.
only revs wants more dmg, more cleanse and some more healing and all better nrg management.
The difference between DP thief’s utility cleanse and staff 4 on revenant are three-fold…
As for their traited cleanse on evade, the 1 second ICD is fine… It’s not about cleansing yourself entirely, it’s about resetting the stacks. A few stacks on you is no big deal, it’s when you start getting large stacks where you find yourself in trouble. That’s exactly why Rite of the Great Dwarf, Kalla’s Heal, and the Kalla GM trait are so useless… They don’t prevent your opponents from getting those 10-20 stacks of bleed/torment/confusion on you that a cleanse would have reset.
As I ALREADY said, Mr. Do Your Leg Work, the problem with Ventari is not a clunky tablet, it’s the fact that you have to invest over half your build into it to get the ability to cleanse. It FORCES you to either play a healing/support spec or play as a DPS spec, but without access to enough of your kit to actually kill anyone with.
But yeah, warriors are going to be in the same boat as Mallyx revs after PoF… I guess the devs are hoping their crazy bonus burst and off hand dagger life steal will sustain them through it? I’m sort of thinking that’s what they had in mind for Kalla as well, they’re hoping all the bonus ferocity can carry your dps through being stuck in Ventari.
As you quoted, however, I said Ventari Tablet. If you’re going to compare utilities you should do so properly.
So if you’re facing a heavy interrupt opponent switching to Staff wouldn’t be smart like you point out and simply rely on our Condi cleanse utility of Purifying Essence (instant cast, 5 second cool down, 25 energy). Now I’d point out that Ventari removes your point on weapon swapping to staff, but the essence of it is still there. That’s kinda part of playing a swap class like that. We see this with other timed swap classes like Ele when they swap to certain attunements classes dump damage since they know they’re locked out for a bit. Think that will always be there as part of the class design. Finally any Thief just straight up will never have as much condi cleanse as Ventari. 3 conditions every 5 seconds is insane. While their disengagement is superior, that’s thief in a nutshell. Again, why do you expect us to be equal to another class when we all have different setups?
I 100% agree that reduced condition damage is spinning in the mud. I would never argue for more of it. What I do argue for is making our Ventari legend less clunky in high mobility scenarios such as PvP and WvW. If that isn’t enough, we can show examples trying to use the tools they designed for us to deal with conditions and show, factually, it’s not enough.
Most classes end up giving up something to pick particular abilities. Sometimes that’s their trait lines/choices. Sometimes that’s their utility slots. Sometimes that’s their weapon choice. In WvW on my Revenant I have to take a Staff and Mallyx because those are what’s required to function there on the front line. The only point you could really make here is that because most of Revenant abilities are “Legends” they have poor Superior Rune set synergy (IE: You can’t get any Soldier Runes because no line is “Shouts” utilities).
I really have no idea what they were thinking with Kalla. Like I can’t even guess, the whole thing is just…yikes
I don’t think the point of it was to compare rev to thief in how they operate, but to compare rev to any class (in this case thief) to show how every class can deal with conditions without having to sacrifice damage. Even with ele having to change to water attunement, those skills do damage, there is a blast/interrupt with focus, and by the time the skills recharge from your damage elements you can usually switch back. So in reality ele isn’y missing out on much damage since the skills are on cooldowns and that the elements flow together creating fields, finishers, and other damage and cc options. Rev simply gives up more for cleansing, utilities, and generally any escape they use. There switches don’t give them the fluidity and ease of use as ele, engi, or any other class. It wouldn’t be a problem if the game wasn’t designed the way it is, but in this game you need access to your reaction skills in order to play on the same level as everyone else. Rev doesn’t have the access that other classes due to energy and legend swap times.
so your suggestion is to take ventari with power build?
lets check the nrg cost – 3 cleanse cost 25 nrg – 5 sec cd. you lose ability to disengage like shiro, or use heal as the heal skill with no healing power is useless. so you taking 5 skills just for 1 skills which cleanse…..
so now you will tell me use healing power amulet like mender but than i lose so much direct dmg….
now you get the point?every other class dont have to sacrifice their whole 5 utilities just for 3-5 condition cleanse even with low cd, as you lose your heal skill, and 4 more utilities.
on thief, warrior,guard, ranger, engi, necro forum they dont ask for more dmg
necro want more stability, ele wants more build to play and not just support
gaurd wants more cover condi the burn.only revs wants more dmg, more cleanse and some more healing and all better nrg management.
25 energy is 5 seconds of regen with zero upkeep against you. Since we aren’t taking healing power it’s unlikely spamming Natural Harmony would be a good idea. This leaves energy regen for weapon skills, but even if you are spamming Purifying Essence on cool down it should maintain regen to 50 depending how many weapon skills you use during the 10 seconds until next swap (it’s enough energy you should be able to spam 2, 3, 4, 5 on cool down and still be fine). At end before swap back blow it up (more condi cleanse), now got shards on ground for more tiny heals after back. However you could also go another route, such as if you have projectile hate and use the bubble if you wanted but that’s going to be rough on energy.
Yes, you have to give something up. But everyone has to give something up which was one of my original points. You don’t think an Ele would like to run full glass? Why do you think they complain about only having 1 viable build (cause it’s full of things they don’t want to take but have to take!). Revenant has two sets of utilities. So saying a class who has to run 2 condi cleanse slots but we have to run 5 is misleading because we have double the utilities. 2/5 or 5/10 is pretty equal ratios.
They’ve systematically dismantled our damage over the last year or two. Why do you think they would give it back? Requests like this make no sense.
so your suggestion is to take ventari with power build?
lets check the nrg cost – 3 cleanse cost 25 nrg – 5 sec cd. you lose ability to disengage like shiro, or use heal as the heal skill with no healing power is useless. so you taking 5 skills just for 1 skills which cleanse…..
so now you will tell me use healing power amulet like mender but than i lose so much direct dmg….
now you get the point?every other class dont have to sacrifice their whole 5 utilities just for 3-5 condition cleanse even with low cd, as you lose your heal skill, and 4 more utilities.
on thief, warrior,guard, ranger, engi, necro forum they dont ask for more dmg
necro want more stability, ele wants more build to play and not just support
gaurd wants more cover condi the burn.only revs wants more dmg, more cleanse and some more healing and all better nrg management.
25 energy is 5 seconds of regen with zero upkeep against you. Since we aren’t taking healing power it’s unlikely spamming Natural Harmony would be a good idea. This leaves energy regen for weapon skills, but even if you are spamming Purifying Essence on cool down it should maintain regen to 50 depending how many weapon skills you use during the 10 seconds until next swap (it’s enough energy you should be able to spam 2, 3, 4, 5 on cool down and still be fine). At end before swap back blow it up (more condi cleanse), now got shards on ground for more tiny heals after back. However you could also go another route, such as if you have projectile hate and use the bubble if you wanted but that’s going to be rough on energy.
Yes, you have to give something up. But everyone has to give something up which was one of my original points. You don’t think an Ele would like to run full glass? Why do you think they complain about only having 1 viable build (cause it’s full of things they don’t want to take but have to take!). Revenant has two sets of utilities. So saying a class who has to run 2 condi cleanse slots but we have to run 5 is misleading because we have double the utilities. 2/5 or 5/10 is pretty equal ratios.
They’ve systematically dismantled our damage over the last year or two. Why do you think they would give it back? Requests like this make no sense.
you just dont get it
in 5 sec you can be bomb again and take just from condition dmg about 10k dmg. so you cleanse 3 conditions and you bomb again. your heal skill is very low you cant switch back as you have to wait 10 sec. you have to disengage but you cant only with staff 5 which cost 25 nrg and you use 25 more with PE. you might be able to use PE again but that’s it. after 10 sec you bombed again and you dead.
try it versus burning guard and you will see.
you scarify just too much
cut
As Roy said, Elementalist and Engineers have conjured weapons, kits and a huge amount of extra skills to make up for the loss of the utility slot. Almost every Ele uses Ice Bow even on melee oriented builds, so you always have an option to go ranged if needed. Are you a PvP only player? In WvW and PvE there are many scenarios where switching weapon is needed. Elementalist have learned to swap weapons before a fight while ooc and always carry at least 1 conjured weapon skill.
Weapon swap has nothing to do with the nerfs, that were done because of the giant damage spikes in PvP and mostly because skills like Unrelenting Assault were difficult to counter for some people, apparently. I remember many threads in this subforum of people asking for a nerf on Revenant. But you probably never read the logs or the nerf motivations, or you were there saying that removing weapon swap would have solved the damage spike issue.
But please stop talking about this already. It’s like your life revolves around this argument you lost 2 years ago. And I seriously don’t remember you at all while you even went personal on me.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
And yes Kodiak, I will never go 10 seconds into Ventari to heal 3 conditions while losing tons of utility and DPS. May as well change rune or sigil, heal more conditions together with Jalis and loose a ton of DPS but still less than what you’re proposing.
The solution is far more simple than a full rework on Ventari. Just add cleanse on Shield (a defensive weapon that makes you sacrifica anche offensive weapon) and buff the cleanses on Invocation and maybe Jalis.
Most classes just need 1 trait or 1 utility slot to become conditions cleanse gods. Some other classes like Ele or Druid (even DPS ones) don’t even need a trait, just go into water or Druid stance for half a second.
(edited by Kidel.2057)