if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

If CoR gets nerfed shouldn’t the rest of the Hammer skills get a buff?

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Posted by: Infusion.7149

Infusion.7149

Have you see the damage with Cruel Repercussions +150 ferocity from Assassin’s Presence , Roiling Mists , among other damage modifiers?

I feel as though the Hammer Bolt damage could be toned down slightly actually ( ~ 5-10%).

Desolation (EU) → Yak’s Bend (US)
In your backline: Elementalist+Mesmer+Necromancer

(edited by Infusion.7149)

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

Have you see the damage with Cruel Repercussions +150 ferocity from Assassin’s Presence , Roiling Mists , among other damage modifiers?

I feel as though the Hammer Bolt damage could be toned down slightly actually ( ~ 5-10%).

You wot m8? Not with current 1sec casttime by any kitten means. Rev already lost ranged weapon.

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: XxsdgxX.8109

XxsdgxX.8109

Have you see the damage with Cruel Repercussions +150 ferocity from Assassin’s Presence , Roiling Mists , among other damage modifiers?

I feel as though the Hammer Bolt damage could be toned down slightly actually ( ~ 5-10%).

You wot m8? Not with current 1sec casttime by any kitten means. Rev already lost ranged weapon.

And hammer is not even viable in PvP, barely in PvE.

Stella Truth Seeker

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Posted by: killahmayne.9518

killahmayne.9518

no. I don’t think you get the concept of a NERF, CoR was too strong for its cooldown, so the cooldown was upped. What would be the point of the nerf if you are to buff everything else, which quite frankly doesn’t need any.

Mace/Greatsword Video (Sept Patch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoAjKtD6MLY

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

no. I don’t think you get the concept of a NERF, CoR was too strong for its cooldown, so the cooldown was upped. What would be the point of the nerf if you are to buff everything else, which quite frankly doesn’t need any.

Hammer 3-5 are pretty mediocre, so yea, I think it should get buffed somewhat because all hammer had was CoR spam.

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Posted by: Kalarchis.8635

Kalarchis.8635

And hammer is not even viable in PvP, barely in PvE.

Hammer 3-5 are pretty mediocre, so yea, I think it should get buffed somewhat because all hammer had was CoR spam.

Are we playing the same game?

3 is not only a blast finisher with AoE chill but also an evade. And it’s ground targeted at 1200 range, with good damage besides.

4 is one of the best skills in the game. A mobile dark field that destroys projectiles and turns all my AAs into lifesteal? And makes some of the more obnoxious areas and enemies a joke, esp. when timed properly with skills 3 and 5? Yes please!

5 is another blast finisher, also ground targeted at 1200 range, and also an AoE knockdown with good damage.

This weapon is amazing, and it’s amazing in PvE. It needs zero buff. Everyone was used to the overpowered damage on CoR and just needs time to adjust to the change. It’s like when you come off the highway and going 45mph feels really slow for a few miles b/c you got used to going 80.

(edited by Kalarchis.8635)

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Posted by: TheBravery.9615

TheBravery.9615

And hammer is not even viable in PvP, barely in PvE.

Hammer 3-5 are pretty mediocre, so yea, I think it should get buffed somewhat because all hammer had was CoR spam.

Are we playing the same game?

3 is not only a blast finisher with AoE chill but also an evade. And it’s ground targeted at 1200 range, with good damage besides.

4 is one of the best skills in the game. A mobile dark field that destroys projectiles and turns all my AAs into lifesteal? And makes some of the more obnoxious areas and enemies a joke, esp. when timed properly with skills 3 and 5? Yes please!

5 is another blast finisher, also ground targeted at 1200 range, and also an AoE knockdown with good damage.

This weapon is amazing, and it’s amazing in PvE. It needs zero buff. Everyone was used to the overpowered damage on CoR and just needs time to adjust to the change. It’s like when you come off the highway and going 45mph feels really slow for a few miles b/c you got used to going 80.

+1

15 characters

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Posted by: killahmayne.9518

killahmayne.9518

And hammer is not even viable in PvP, barely in PvE.

Hammer 3-5 are pretty mediocre, so yea, I think it should get buffed somewhat because all hammer had was CoR spam.

Are we playing the same game?

3 is not only a blast finisher with AoE chill but also an evade. And it’s ground targeted at 1200 range, with good damage besides.

4 is one of the best skills in the game. A mobile dark field that destroys projectiles and turns all my AAs into lifesteal? And makes some of the more obnoxious areas and enemies a joke, esp. when timed properly with skills 3 and 5? Yes please!

5 is another blast finisher, also ground targeted at 1200 range, and also an AoE knockdown with good damage.

This weapon is amazing, and it’s amazing in PvE. It needs zero buff. Everyone was used to the overpowered damage on CoR and just needs time to adjust to the change. It’s like when you come off the highway and going 45mph feels really slow for a few miles b/c you got used to going 80.

I need not say anything else, he explained it perfectly.

Mace/Greatsword Video (Sept Patch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoAjKtD6MLY

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Posted by: XxsdgxX.8109

XxsdgxX.8109

And hammer is not even viable in PvP, barely in PvE.

Hammer 3-5 are pretty mediocre, so yea, I think it should get buffed somewhat because all hammer had was CoR spam.

Are we playing the same game?

3 is not only a blast finisher with AoE chill but also an evade. And it’s ground targeted at 1200 range, with good damage besides.

4 is one of the best skills in the game. A mobile dark field that destroys projectiles and turns all my AAs into lifesteal? And makes some of the more obnoxious areas and enemies a joke, esp. when timed properly with skills 3 and 5? Yes please!

5 is another blast finisher, also ground targeted at 1200 range, and also an AoE knockdown with good damage.

This weapon is amazing, and it’s amazing in PvE. It needs zero buff. Everyone was used to the overpowered damage on CoR and just needs time to adjust to the change. It’s like when you come off the highway and going 45mph feels really slow for a few miles b/c you got used to going 80.

Yeah are we? Are you not using your facets to support your team? Or instead using that energy for sword Precision Strike + Impossible Odds/More Facets?
Yep, Raider build right here with Hammer skills. And if you also meant that from a PvP point of view then I can’t take any of what you say serious. lolhammerpvp

Stella Truth Seeker

(edited by XxsdgxX.8109)

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Posted by: Norjena.5172

Norjena.5172

DPS was nerfed, not utility.

Hammer 3 and 5 are big dps loses.

Hammer dps was already far behind other range classes like staffele, and now its broken. Especialy with anets easystyle fix “can only be hit once per 0,5sec” Nerfhammer.

The dps more crap then before, it needs a buff.

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

DPS was nerfed, not utility.

Hammer 3 and 5 are big dps loses.

Hammer dps was already far behind other range classes like staffele, and now its broken. Especialy with anets easystyle fix “can only be hit once per 0,5sec” Nerfhammer.

The dps more crap then before, it needs a buff.

What ? Revenant hammer is best ranged weapon in this game. This weapons has 100% projectile finisher (other class has 20%) it is madness,Coalescence of Ruin is best 1200 range AOE DMG spell in game with really low CD, Phase Smash has evade/chill/blast finisher and good DMG. Field of the Mists is best ranged defences spell 6 sec duration and only 12 sec CD with 100% projectile finisher on your AA makes this spell awesome.
Only Drop the Hammer is controversial skill on this weapon.

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

Uh, guys, Hammer 3 is alright, but it’s just a stalling tool at best. It’s a DPS loss, it’s easy to see coming, animation is very long and also doesn’t work properly on certain terrain.
Hammer 4 is cool, but I think it’s a tad too slow.
Hammer 5 is awful.

Overall, it’s not a great weapon outside of CoR spam, it’s TERRIBLE at kiting, and has basically 0 tools for opening the gap.
It’s far from being the best ranged weapon.

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Uh, guys, Hammer 3 is alright, but it’s just a stalling tool at best. It’s a DPS loss, it’s easy to see coming, animation is very long and also doesn’t work properly on certain terrain.
Hammer 4 is cool, but I think it’s a tad too slow.
Hammer 5 is awful.

Overall, it’s not a great weapon outside of CoR spam, it’s TERRIBLE at kiting, and has basically 0 tools for opening the gap.
It’s far from being the best ranged weapon.

You are Revenant with 10 utility skills lol, you dont need more.

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

Uh, guys, Hammer 3 is alright, but it’s just a stalling tool at best. It’s a DPS loss, it’s easy to see coming, animation is very long and also doesn’t work properly on certain terrain.
Hammer 4 is cool, but I think it’s a tad too slow.
Hammer 5 is awful.

Overall, it’s not a great weapon outside of CoR spam, it’s TERRIBLE at kiting, and has basically 0 tools for opening the gap.
It’s far from being the best ranged weapon.

You are Revenant with 10 utility skills lol, you dont need more.

What that lol is supposed to mean? Do you even have a idea what utility and weapons skills are? Do you know that they have completely different purposes? Are you trying to tell us that we are supposed to kill ppl with utility skills? Now thats lol worthy.

Hammer was terrible outside of CoR spam and everyone knows it. And when the gap was closed rev had to fight with one weapon set as hammer unlike dh lb loses all it damage and it doesnt have anything else going for like passive knock and stab just bc dh used his auto in close range.

Also funny thread when it comes to true shot, we can see how some objective people are in reality!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/True-shot-BS

Oh and while were at it, dh has 8 utilities. 5 from right bar with ability to mix them and 3 from class mechanic – virtues.

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

(edited by Burtnik.5218)

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Uh, guys, Hammer 3 is alright, but it’s just a stalling tool at best. It’s a DPS loss, it’s easy to see coming, animation is very long and also doesn’t work properly on certain terrain.
Hammer 4 is cool, but I think it’s a tad too slow.
Hammer 5 is awful.

Overall, it’s not a great weapon outside of CoR spam, it’s TERRIBLE at kiting, and has basically 0 tools for opening the gap.
It’s far from being the best ranged weapon.

You are Revenant with 10 utility skills lol, you dont need more.

What that lol is supposed to mean? Do you even have a idea what utility and weapons skills are? Do you know that they have completely different purposes? Are you trying to tell us that we are supposed to kill ppl with utility skills? Now thats lol worthy.

Hammer was terrible outside of CoR spam and everyone knows it. And when the gap was closed rev had to fight with one weapon set as hammer unlike dh lb loses all it damage and it doesnt have anything else going for like passive knock and stab just bc dh used his auto in close range.

Also funny thread when it comes to true shot, we can see how some objective people are in reality!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/True-shot-BS

Sorry i has only 550 hours play time on my Revenant over the past 100 day (it is 5.5 hours every day for your information), really am not objective hehe.
Maybe first time start play all class in this game and don’t stunck on one single class and write every time " buuuu my class is so bad" I really like this forum warriors with zero skill in game.

Attachments:

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

(edited by Evilek.5690)

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Posted by: Kalarchis.8635

Kalarchis.8635

I think in threads like this everyone should note what mode of play they’re talking about. Seems like a lot of the negative opinions about hammer are coming from the PvP side, and I can see why it might be kinda cumbersome there.

But my experience has been great results and tons of fun in PvE and in WvW zergs. Some weapons are just better suited for certain game types, and rev hammer might just not be a great PvP weapon.

….Also think people should include a “I only care about raw DPS and nothing else about the weapon matters to me.” disclaimer.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

Uh, guys, Hammer 3 is alright, but it’s just a stalling tool at best. It’s a DPS loss, it’s easy to see coming, animation is very long and also doesn’t work properly on certain terrain.
Hammer 4 is cool, but I think it’s a tad too slow.
Hammer 5 is awful.

Overall, it’s not a great weapon outside of CoR spam, it’s TERRIBLE at kiting, and has basically 0 tools for opening the gap.
It’s far from being the best ranged weapon.

You are Revenant with 10 utility skills lol, you dont need more.

What that lol is supposed to mean? Do you even have a idea what utility and weapons skills are? Do you know that they have completely different purposes? Are you trying to tell us that we are supposed to kill ppl with utility skills? Now thats lol worthy.

Hammer was terrible outside of CoR spam and everyone knows it. And when the gap was closed rev had to fight with one weapon set as hammer unlike dh lb loses all it damage and it doesnt have anything else going for like passive knock and stab just bc dh used his auto in close range.

Also funny thread when it comes to true shot, we can see how some objective people are in reality!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/True-shot-BS

Sorry i has only 550 hours play time on my Revenant over the past 100 day (it is 5.5 hours every day for your information), really am not objective hehe.
Maybe first time start play all class in this game and don’t stunck on one single class and write every time " buuuu my class is so bad" I really like this forum warriors with zero skill in game.

Yea, you’re not objective at all lol

@ above poster: I would say that Hammer, outside of cleaving with CoR in open world, is complete trash for PvE as well (I.e. instanced content). If it wasn’t our only ranged option, I wouldn’t touch it and even then, I prefer Staff for the utility.
It seems like people who think Hammer is fine, and I’m obviously just making a generalization, just think of the damage CoR can do and don’t consider that the weapon is flawed as a ranged option.

Any good weapon should:
1. Be good at some range.
2. Try to keep the target at that range.

Most good weapons follow those, but Hammer fails hard at #2 which makes it bad at anything other than open world PvE (and it lacks the DPS or utility for raids) or WvW where you can hide behind a zerg and spam.

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

The only thing i see from this ss is that you like to click skills. I doubt you ever made it above ruby division to talk about someone skill level or what they played. Hours in game means nothing btw, i have more on my rev and most of them are by afking in spvp lobby shrug.

Hammer bolt is not the only projectile finisher with 100% chance in the game as also staff ele 1 is. Not that it matters much in the end as projectile finishers sux in general. Leeching bolts..like anyone gives a kitten about them.

Both 3 and 5 are easy to avoid without even spending a dodge on them, 4 is useless vs non projectile classes and that leaves me with CoR that scales with damage based on range on a weapon that lack any tools to actually kite. For me ranger lb is godlike compared to the trash hammer rev has and i would trade it anyday anytime as it offers me 600 range knockback and 33% uptime on stealth with quite decent and reliable damage. Meanwhile if CoR is on cd hammer rev is useless. If terrain is uneven you might as well swap hammer for something else too.

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: Sourde Noire.5286

Sourde Noire.5286

….Also think people should include a “I only care about raw DPS and nothing else about the weapon matters to me.” disclaimer.

But that’s what mostly counts in PvE. And that’s why nerfs to damage in PvE are always annoying. And that’s why we neeed S-P-L-I-T B-A-L-A-N-C-I-N-G of game modes already.

It’s true, hammer does have utilities. But in PvE that’s not all too important, less so the more other classes are there that can do those things better.
Hammer auto is okay in terms of damage for how slow it is. Hammer 3 is a free evade for meh damage with a rather long animation, which is good for evading but bad for damage. Hammer 4 is pretty decent, yes, but attributing the life steal from the combo as something amazing for actual healing is laughable at best. It’s useful for the block, again at the cost of a lot of damage (because you play ranged instead of melee; or you switch back to melee right away but then how good does that make the hammer except for that one skill?). Hammer 5 is a knockdown with a huge cast time, albeit AoE, and also okay for trash mobs or to help with boss Defiance but overall nothing to write home about.
The blast finishers are useful for pre-stacking might and similar stuff, but afterwards you can swap the Hammer with something else.

Hammer was useful/used in PvE because with CoR and aligning your target you could hit it twice for pretty good ranged damage. Not only is that impossible now, the cooldown was also upped and on top of that the skill still suffers from the problem of hitting random things in the ground and whatnot (for example it’s pretty much impossible to hit the Molten Boss duo with it because the platform absorbs all the hits).
And again, PvE is all about the damage. In a group people won’t take the Revenant with his Hammer because of the amazing utility that brings or the awesome damage (it was good for ranged but that’s still worse than melee unless you’re playing staff ele). People took the Hammer so they could still somewhat pull their weight at range. We used it to clear the Orbs at Gorseval past P1. That was only possible because CoR did decent damage for a ranged skill.
The nerf to Hammer 2, which is obviously because of the Rev Hammer Trains in WvW, did nothing but remove Hammer as a viable choice from other game modes.

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Posted by: Fade to Black.7042

Fade to Black.7042

Revenants only use hammer in PvE for bosses that is needed ranged weapons and for WvW.

Unless you’re not in those situations hammer is useless.

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Posted by: Kalarchis.8635

Kalarchis.8635

I only use hammer in PvE for bosses that is needed ranged weapons and for WvW.

Unless you’re not in those situations hammer is useless to me.

Fixed that for you. I play a mixed/support style and I use hammer everywhere in PvE. It’s amazing in Orr, not b/c of CoR. It’s amazing in HoT, not b/c of CoR. It’s amazing in Dry Top and Silverwastes. All of the skills are incredibly useful.

….Also think people should include a “I only care about raw DPS and nothing else about the weapon matters to me.” disclaimer.

But that’s what mostly counts in PvE.

To you. I would rather have an interesting fight where I use all my cool skills than one where I spam CoR and it’s over five seconds faster. Not everyone enjoys or plays the zerker style (esp. not now that support gives event/tagging credit!)

NOTE: I’m talking about open world PvE only! Your examples of why DPS matters in PvE were all dungeon/fractal/raid examples. Dungeons/fractals/raids != PvE. They’re located in PvE, but honestly they’re their own little ecosystem, especially raids and fractals. This is why I’m advocating people being specific about what game type they’re talking about. There are so many modes to the game, and so many different play environments nestled within each other.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

The problem is that everything works fine in open world PvE. It’s not convincing if you or someone says that something is strong enough there.

Hammer is CLEARLY struggling in instanced content and PvP, both modes that require more fine-tuning than open world PvE or WvW.

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Posted by: Sourde Noire.5286

Sourde Noire.5286

To you. I would rather have an interesting fight where I use all my cool skills than one where I spam CoR and it’s over five seconds faster. Not everyone enjoys or plays the zerker style (esp. not now that support gives event/tagging credit!)

Well, yes. And for many other people, too, I wager. Fun is surely subjective but the reason why damage is the be-all-end-it-all in PvE is that most fights (open world even moreso) don’t require anything else.
Can you use all your (cool) skills? Yes, sure. But why would you do that when the result is the same but takes longer? And after killing the same type of mob for the umptienth time I think many people rather be done with it quickly.

Point here is, most PvE content does not require you to use anything but superior damage. You can see that as a flaw, but that’s how it is at the moment. Which is why the nerf to damage output is actually detrimental. Which brings us back to the original point and away from ‘yes but in open world PvE that’s fine’, because in open world PvE everything works.

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Posted by: XxsdgxX.8109

XxsdgxX.8109

The problem is that everything works fine in open world PvE. It’s not convincing if you or someone says that something is strong enough there.

Hammer is CLEARLY struggling in instanced content and PvP, both modes that require more fine-tuning than open world PvE or WvW.

Exactly, everything is viable in PvE.

Stella Truth Seeker

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Posted by: Kalarchis.8635

Kalarchis.8635

Completely agree that everything is viable in open-world. However that doesn’t mean that the effectiveness of weapons in open-world is not important, if only because the devs continue to refuse to split skills along PvE/PvP.

“Hammer works fantastically in open-world” is relevant to discussion of hammer game-wide because the devs are balancing for all game types here. They probably aren’t going to buff hammer in general because it would be too strong in open-world. Because it’s very strong in open-world. So PvP hammer suffers to keep PvE hammer balanced, and it’s “tough luck” for the PvP players.

I wish the higher-ups would just allocate the resources for splitting the skills between modes, but honestly I don’t ever see that happening.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

Completely agree that everything is viable in open-world. However that doesn’t mean that the effectiveness of weapons in open-world is not important, if only because the devs continue to refuse to split skills along PvE/PvP.

“Hammer works fantastically in open-world” is relevant to discussion of hammer game-wide because the devs are balancing for all game types here. They probably aren’t going to buff hammer in general because it would be too strong in open-world. Because it’s very strong in open-world. So PvP hammer suffers to keep PvE hammer balanced, and it’s “tough luck” for the PvP players.

I wish the higher-ups would just allocate the resources for splitting the skills between modes, but honestly I don’t ever see that happening.

Uh, Hammer is crap in both PvP AND instanced content (aka PvE).
You literally only take it because it’s ranged cleave and does good spike damage with CoR (but TERRIBLE DPS), which is good for Pocket Raptors and other trash.

I wouldn’t really say open world needs to be balanced. Literally anything is viable.

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Posted by: Kalarchis.8635

Kalarchis.8635

1) This entire thread I’ve been noting that PvE = open-world for my purposes and when I say PvE I don’t mean instanced content. How you think I said hammer is strong in instanced content I have no idea.

2) It’s true that most of the balance happens around PvP, but saying that open-world doesn’t need to be balanced is nonsense. It does need it, and it gets it all the time. It shouldn’t be the focus of balance, but neither should it (or will it) be ignored or allowed to become unbalanced. The fact that all weapons are viable there has zero bearing on that.

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

1) This entire thread I’ve been noting that PvE = open-world for my purposes and when I say PvE I don’t mean instanced content. How you think I said hammer is strong in instanced content I have no idea.

2) It’s true that most of the balance happens around PvP, but saying that open-world doesn’t need to be balanced is nonsense. It does need it, and it gets it all the time. It shouldn’t be the focus of balance, but neither should it (or will it) be ignored or allowed to become unbalanced. The fact that all weapons are viable there has zero bearing on that.

Let’s be honest the relevance of game-modes in balancing decisions is pretty much:
SPvP
Raids/Fractals

WvW

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Open-world PvE

Considering how much the imbalance affects fun.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

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Posted by: Sourde Noire.5286

Sourde Noire.5286

1) This entire thread I’ve been noting that PvE = open-world for my purposes and when I say PvE I don’t mean instanced content. How you think I said hammer is strong in instanced content I have no idea.

2) It’s true that most of the balance happens around PvP, but saying that open-world doesn’t need to be balanced is nonsense. It does need it, and it gets it all the time. It shouldn’t be the focus of balance, but neither should it (or will it) be ignored or allowed to become unbalanced. The fact that all weapons are viable there has zero bearing on that.

1) Just because your definition drastically differs from pretty much everybody else’s (because open world PvE is laughably easy and thus when people refer to PvE balancing they obviously mean instanced content; also ignoring the fact that they are still PvE simply because they fit the vs. environment aspect as opposed to vs. player like PvP and WvW) doesn’t make your point any more valid.

2) Open World PvE needs ‘balancing’ in the sense that skills aren’t gamebreaking, like the Symbolic Avenger trait bug that made any content trivial by Guardian stacking. Other than that, ‘balancing’ isn’t really required in PvE other than your skills doing something when you use them and not crashing your game. And here’s why:
If your skills/build is ‘too strong’ in open world PvE, you hurt nobody. You kill trashmobs fast (oh wow, gratz) and maybe complete things a bit faster. It’s not even useful in terms of farming because of DR kicking in.

If you feel a skill or weapon is too strong in open world PvE, you can simply not use it. Out of curiosity I looked at your post history and apparently you run a full Celestial build on your Herald. How running such a build and still feeling you kill stuff too quickly is beyond me, but more power to you. You stated you rather ‘use all your cool skills than use a strong kill and be done with it 5s faster’. Well, then simply don’t use the strong skill.
You said Rev Hammer is an amazing weapon because of everything it does; I listed all the skills and why they are – in my opinion but so are your statements simply your opinion – suboptimal. If you feel they are useful then that’s because you drag out the fights artificially by using gear that isn’t focused on damage which makes the skills useful in the first place. But all of that is void once you spec for damage and then those skills become redundant or of little use in instanced PvE. Moreso in the open world.
It also disregards that pretty much all weapon skills in the game are designed with a purpose. They are usually either for straight damage, soft/hard control, evasion/kiting/blocking. I’d argue you don’t have to nor is it intended to use all your skills in every encounter. You use something when the situation requires it. For trashmobs Hammer may be fine because CoR still does decent AoE damage and trashmobs melt anyway. That doesn’t even remotely make it sufficient or even useful against elite mobs or bosses.

Which brings me to the point that we are discussing the viability of the Revenant Hammer in instanced PvE/PvP/WvW. And in that regard, your argument that ’it’s really strong in open world PvE’ is not adding anything and misses the point completely, since, as you yourself even stated, everything is viable in PvE.

Balancing becomes an issue when something isn’t used because it’s too weak / offers too little benefit (which is the case of the Hammer in instanced PvE and PvP at the moment) OR when something is too good that using anything else is an effective loss compared to that. If your argument is that you want to play how you like it and have fights that last long, none of those points apply to you anyway.

Now, when something is too strong in instanced content it’s actually having an impact. It affects the meta, whether you agree with it or not, makes certain classes favourable over others and creates a desire and neglect of certain classes which does affect people trying to participate in the content. It also affects balance of content like Raids, because the difficulty has to be measured against something and when you can easily nullify that by stacking a certain class, then something is off too. That doesn’t mean that stacking certain classes doesn’t happen anyway, simply because all your important roles are already filled.

When something is too strong in PvP, then obviously it needs to be fixed because it affects the matches, team building and offers a direct advantage over other things.
When something is too strong in WvW, the same applies. And for the Hammer, this is actually the reason it was nerfed.

Which brings me to the last point, the only one I can actually agree with you on. That we need split balancing in this game. I’ve been saying this for years and in my opinion it’s one of the worst mistakes this game is doing because of things like the Hammer now. It was too strong in one game mode, and I agree, it certainly was in WvW, and got nerfed to accomodate that mode. But since in the other modes it wasn’t as strong but just so ‘viable’, the nerf made it a lot less useful / useless.

So, to go back on topic: instanced PvE is ultimately focused on damage. Raids specifically because they actually run on time limits. So if you nerf the damage potential of a weapon, that takes away reason to take it. And as I’ve stated, the utility of the hammer is okay-ish but if you actually rely on it in combat you sacrifice 10 seconds of damage for limited utility, which means another class will probably do that using a utility skill.

As it stands, Hammer is the only option when you absolutely need a ranged weapon. And that is only because it’s literally our only ranged option. That doesn’t make it a good weapon. And for it to have any real use now they’d need to shorten some cast times or up the damage of skills. On that note, I’m pretty sure Hammer 1 does more DPS than Hammer 2 now. And Sword was nerfed for that reason. But hey.

Bottomline is, Hammer was nerfed solely because of WvW and that left it undesirable in the other game modes and that is something that warrants addressing.

if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

Tbh i wonder now if hammer should get a buff by reducing casttime on 1 to 3/4 to compensate for dmg loss..

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Already has substantially better damage than even ranger’s LRS. Don’t really see a reason why it’d need it.

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

Already has substantially better damage than even ranger’s LRS. Don’t really see a reason why it’d need it.

It’s about 10% higher than LRS but 11% lower than puncture shot. Reducing cast time to 3/4 would increase AA DPS by 25%.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

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Posted by: LucianDK.8615

LucianDK.8615

Hammer is too slow to be kitteneful main weapon in pve.

if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Except for you know, the damage modifiers, quickness, and might that the revenant has, pushing the weapon to be one of the hardest-hitters of the 1200+ range category.

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

Except for you know, the damage modifiers, quickness, and might that the revenant has, pushing the weapon to be one of the hardest-hitters of the 1200+ range category.

Have you looked at dh damage modifiers? Should i also mention that rev has basically 0 access to might as thats herald thing and might is not rev exclusive as well? Closest comprasion to hammer is dh lb where as the both fill the same role – 1, 2 for dps, rest utility with some damage.

Puncture shot has Damage: 226 (0.85), attack once a 1sec
Hammer bolt has Damage: 209 (0.95) attack once a 1.25s

True Shot Damage: 665 (2.5). 4cd, 0 energy cost
CoR First Impact: 246 (1.25). Damage Second Impact: 369 (1.75). Damage Final Impact: 492 (2.25). 4cd, 5 energy cost.

Affected hard by terrain to the point where i fails to hit often on flat ground. Cannot be used against targets above me and often under me as well.

Damage modifiers (not all viable for pvp, but all viable for pve);

Rev/herald;

targeted desctruction – 7%
assassin presence (aoe buff) 10% crit dmg
swift termination 20% under 50% hp
ferocious aggression – 7%
elder force – 2% per boon (lets average it to 10%?)

Dh;

fiery wrath – 7% to burning foes
symbolic avenger – 10% under symbol
unscathed contender – 20%
power of the virtuous – 1% per boon (average 5%?)
zealot aggression – 10%
pure of sight – 6% under 600 range, 13% at 600+
big game hunter – 10%, 50% uptime so lets halve it to 5%.

Overall i think dh leads here? Damage in beta was buffed on hammer as it was taking years to kill anything in pve and had little damage in pvp and were back to this situation, unless range wep is needed badly theres no reason to equip hammer as it stands now. Due to nerf for wvw it was killed in spvp and pve, if you want to leave yourself playing with one weapon set only (start with hammer, swap to sword and dont look back), hammer is the way to go right now.

With CoR being buthered by cd nerf (100% increase) it has to lose it range penalty and hammer 1 should be buffed imo as well. 2 weapons which does the same thing, one being superior to the other one.

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

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Posted by: Infusion.7149

Infusion.7149

DH doesn’t have all the damage modifiers loaded in one trait line. The Devastation line has Targeted Destruction (+ 7% vs vulnerable , MINOR trait), Swift Termination (+ 20% against < 50% HP) , Assassin’s Presence. Invocation has ferocious aggression ( + 7% under fury), roiling mists ( + 100% fury effectiveness).

You’re also forgetting about Cruel Repercussions, which is 50% after a block (the main problem with revenant in WvW); Roiling Mists (+100% Fury effectiveness) ; Shared Empowerment.

for example: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQFAin3guNSuQ7JRboVlsP0rS4IaWJ4EdskFNFiNMppNtFIANwugJshA-TVROwAE1BAY/hRK/kpEEs6PAA-w

The Herald can run Valkyrie armor pieces instead of Berserker and be okay, since Roiling Mists gives you an added 40% critical chance even 15-20% base critical chance would be fine. Also due to Hardening Persistence , you won’t be as fragile as an equivalent DH in terms of armor AND health. I would say the build I linked above is a fairly standard glass rev.

For DH: Unscathed Contender (a major trait) is notoriously unreliable since Aegis procs on auto attacks , not just big hits. The only other source of aegis besides your virtue of courage, is offhand shield, Retreat!, Fragments of Faith, a few Valor traits.

Retribution’s +10% damage is far more reliable since retaliation is harder to achieve, especially with the amount of light fields you can put out.

Empowering Might is in the Guardian’s Honor line so you cannot stack might as easily.

Zealot aggression is only going to work with Longbow + Dulled Senses + Heavy Light (which precludes using Big Game Hunter). It doesn’t affect other weapons really, because Guardian doesn’t have many sources of cripple. Given that there is a cooldown of 10 seconds on the knockback, it is not going to be that amazing.

As far as Symbolic Avenger , unless you’re running melee hammer you will likely not see 100% uptime on symbols. Plus if you use symbols you will blast them as light fields.

Fiery Wrath is a major trait in the Zeal line , a line that is niche unlike Virtues.

As far as Big Game Hunter: you will get this off on one target and unless you don’t use the pull you’re not going to meet the condition.

In your hypothetical DH Longbow berserker gear build with Zeal you’d have DH + Virtue + Zeal and have ridiculously low 11K HP. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAT8ensABNDhddCWkittendil4BLLF1imRyFw+XCsKAslqXA-TFBXgAh6GeUCCs/o8rX9HA-w

So from your list a longbow will only see power of the virtuous, zealot aggression , pure of sight most of the time with Fiery Wrath procing when your virtue of justice hits / symbol or purging flames is used.

Keep in mind the innate damage modifiers on the DH longbow (not traits) are still lower than that of Revenant hammer. I don’t disagree that True shot damage could be toned down (i.e. 10% damage decrease or adding a charge time akin to rapid fire but slightly shorter); Pure of sight could be reevaluated.

You’re forgetting that DH’s LB is still projectile. What you’re highlighting with DH’s LB is just how Heart of Thorns introduced stuff that is broken.

TL;DR: The CoR nerf didn’t address Cruel Repercussions ( + 50% damage after a block), Roiling Mists ( + 40% perma critical chance on Heralds), or Shared Empowerment.

Desolation (EU) → Yak’s Bend (US)
In your backline: Elementalist+Mesmer+Necromancer

(edited by Infusion.7149)

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

^ Pretty much what I was going to respond with; DH’s can’t feasibly stack those modifiers as the dispersion is vast and quite self-destructive. I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.

It doesn’t justify True Shot, either, but emphasizes that the hammer seriously does not need any buffs.

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

In actual, real pvp build you wont pick up all of these traits on rev either. One line goes to retribution, one most likely to deva leaving with a choice of invo (good joke) or herald.

Balancing hammer for wvw is absurd as it hurts spvp and pve in which case yes..in both of them hammer do need a buff due to CoR nerf. And the most funny thing about the CoR crying is actually the fact these same people run full glass and literally anything will explode them. CoR just have easier time doing that as you dont rally need a target to cast it nor put reflect and call it a day nor you dont need them to cc them as the damage is insta. Also i actually want CoR to become projectile based without range penalty.

If hammer is fine as you say, why we dont see hammer revs in spvp btw? Or in instanced contest? Trying to balance a weapon around wvw.. a dead mode which had pirate meta for a long time already.. is laughable at best really. Going by that logic we should remove all aoe and cc skills from wvw. We might as well just fight with wooden sticks.

td;dr hammer was nerfed too hard and need compensation for how terrible this weapon is in current state.

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.

I ran Invocation/Devastation/Herald with full Zojja’s. My Hammer autos definitely weren’t hitting for True Shot damage.
I think I was averaging more around 2k-3k and more rarely I’d hit 4k.

if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

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Posted by: Sourde Noire.5286

Sourde Noire.5286

Looks like it’s time for my regular reminder that this game needs split balancing!

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Posted by: Versuvious.2568

Versuvious.2568

Wow lots of QQ regarding Rev’s strong hammer skills. Have you seen Guardians Hammer skills? No nerf or buff and not that good. Only AA is good in PVE and with ugly light fields. Slow animations on #3 and #4. Long CD on #3 and #4. Only #2 is a blast finisher wih meh range and bad uphill/downhill slope use. Very slow AA chain, bad and mixed up hammer traits. Very outdated hammer skills this time of HoT.

I still us em. I still love it even its like that I still find ways.
We are not complaining tho, just wanted to show you that your Rev Hammer skills are still good even with the nerf.

SMH
/thread

Xeramphelinae – Legend S1 & S2, 6k sPvP games
6 legendaries, PvE & PvP’er. 3 yrs gw2’er, Raider
Hardcore but playing casually. Workaholic.

(edited by Versuvious.2568)

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

Wow lots of QQ regarding Rev’s strong hammer skills. Have you seen Guardians Hammer skills? No nerf or buff and not that good. Only AA is good in PVE. Slow animations on #3 and #4. Long CD on #3 and #4. Only #2 is a blast finisher wih meh range and bad uphill/downhill slope use. Very slow AA chain, bad and mixed up hammer traits. Very outdated hammer skills this time of HoT.

We are not complaining tho, just wanted to show you that your Rev Hammer skills are still good even with the nerf.

SMH
/thread

Your skills are functional for the most part and it does have some unique aspects that actually made it usable in PvP a while back before HoT (and Hammer Guard is good DPS in Raids).

However, I think comparing these two weapons isn’t a terribly great idea. One is meleeland the other is a ranged weapon. The latter is absolutely awful at kiting, has bad DPS, and has three skills that barely work on slopes or walls. The only reason to take Hammer is because it’s our only ranged option or because you want to spam CoR safely behind your zerg (aka your only ranged option).

if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

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Posted by: Sourde Noire.5286

Sourde Noire.5286

Wow lots of QQ regarding Rev’s strong hammer skills. Have you seen Guardians Hammer skills? No nerf or buff and not that good. Only AA is good in PVE and with ugly light fields. Slow animations on #3 and #4. Long CD on #3 and #4. Only #2 is a blast finisher wih meh range and bad uphill/downhill slope use. Very slow AA chain, bad and mixed up hammer traits. Very outdated hammer skills this time of HoT.

I still us em. I still love it even its like that I still find ways.
We are not complaining tho, just wanted to show you that your Rev Hammer skills are still good even with the nerf.

SMH
/thread

Friendly reminder that you cannot /thread your own posts, friend. :^)

But I’ll stay on topic:
Rev Hammer is still pretty meh outside of WvW due to the points that have been mentioned countless times in this thread.

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Posted by: Boreal.9826

Boreal.9826

I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.

I ran Invocation/Devastation/Herald with full Zojja’s. My Hammer autos definitely weren’t hitting for True Shot damage.
I think I was averaging more around 2k-3k and more rarely I’d hit 4k.

A bit of footage from the night I unlocked Herald. Full exotics aside from amulet and rings. Mix of Berserker, Valkyrie and Cavalier. Typical might stacks.

Hammer auto is VERY strong, as are Hammer 5 and 3. It’s just that everything, and I do mean everything, pales in comparison to the still broken CoR.

if CoR get nerf shouldnt hammer get buff?

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Posted by: Infusion.7149

Infusion.7149

This thread should be closed. CoR was patched today. If you have 2 revs they can both hit CoR on one enemy.

Desolation (EU) → Yak’s Bend (US)
In your backline: Elementalist+Mesmer+Necromancer

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.

I ran Invocation/Devastation/Herald with full Zojja’s. My Hammer autos definitely weren’t hitting for True Shot damage.
I think I was averaging more around 2k-3k and more rarely I’d hit 4k.

A bit of footage from the night I unlocked Herald. Full exotics aside from amulet and rings. Mix of Berserker, Valkyrie and Cavalier. Typical might stacks.

Hammer auto is VERY strong, as are Hammer 5 and 3. It’s just that everything, and I do mean everything, pales in comparison to the still broken CoR.

Thanks for proving my information then.
Literally, the only time your autos ever surpassed 4k (or 3k for that matter), you had Cruel Repercussions active, which is a strange, over-punishing trait that only seems good on Hammer.

For such a slow auto-attack and a weapon with 0 kiting, and the fact that we ran full damage traits, it seems fair. The issues with Hammer damage keep stemming back to Cruel Repercussions. If you think it’s too much, then let me point you to Ranger Longbow, which has about as much damage (or more) at 1000+ range, shoots faster, and has better range along with kiting abilities and stealth.

(edited by Malchior.5732)

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Posted by: cyst.3108

cyst.3108

Uh, guys, Hammer 3 is alright, but it’s just a stalling tool at best. It’s a DPS loss, it’s easy to see coming, animation is very long and also doesn’t work properly on certain terrain.
Hammer 4 is cool, but I think it’s a tad too slow.
Hammer 5 is awful.

Overall, it’s not a great weapon outside of CoR spam, it’s TERRIBLE at kiting, and has basically 0 tools for opening the gap.
It’s far from being the best ranged weapon.

You are Revenant with 10 utility skills lol, you dont need more.

What that lol is supposed to mean? Do you even have a idea what utility and weapons skills are? Do you know that they have completely different purposes? Are you trying to tell us that we are supposed to kill ppl with utility skills? Now thats lol worthy.

Hammer was terrible outside of CoR spam and everyone knows it. And when the gap was closed rev had to fight with one weapon set as hammer unlike dh lb loses all it damage and it doesnt have anything else going for like passive knock and stab just bc dh used his auto in close range.

Also funny thread when it comes to true shot, we can see how some objective people are in reality!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/True-shot-BS

Sorry i has only 550 hours play time on my Revenant over the past 100 day (it is 5.5 hours every day for your information), really am not objective hehe.
Maybe first time start play all class in this game and don’t stunck on one single class and write every time " buuuu my class is so bad" I really like this forum warriors with zero skill in game.

Sorry mate.. i wont respond to a PVE Revenant that uses Staff+Hammer in pve….

shame…. shame on u

After June 25 im like… 90% happier

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Posted by: Boreal.9826

Boreal.9826

I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.

I ran Invocation/Devastation/Herald with full Zojja’s. My Hammer autos definitely weren’t hitting for True Shot damage.
I think I was averaging more around 2k-3k and more rarely I’d hit 4k.

A bit of footage from the night I unlocked Herald. Full exotics aside from amulet and rings. Mix of Berserker, Valkyrie and Cavalier. Typical might stacks.

Hammer auto is VERY strong, as are Hammer 5 and 3. It’s just that everything, and I do mean everything, pales in comparison to the still broken CoR.

Thanks for proving my information then.
Literally, the only time your autos ever surpassed 4k (or 3k for that matter), you had Cruel Repercussions active, which is a strange, over-punishing trait that only seems good on Hammer.

For such a slow auto-attack and a weapon with 0 kiting, and the fact that we ran full damage traits, it seems fair. The issues with Hammer damage keep stemming back to Cruel Repercussions. If you think it’s too much, then let me point you to Ranger Longbow, which has about as much damage (or more) at 1000+ range, shoots faster, and has better range along with kiting abilities and stealth.

Granted it is hard to glean much from a short video, especially in WvW. There are just too many variables. But 3k+ autos were happening more often than Cruel Repercussions would allow for in this short, half speed video. Also, some targets were higher armor which scales down damage. I’m pretty sure any auto attacks over 4k were due to the proc.

I also have a Ranger and I’ll agree that Longbow seems most similar to Herald Hammer in WvW. Primary difference being that Ranger must go full Berserker to even approach similar damage output. Herald boons, traits and enhanced fury allow for more defensive stats, on top of inherently more survivability.

Simply put, in WvW, Hammer Herald is an offensive juggernaut. One of the biggest difference makers on the field. This is pretty well known, and many commanders are asking people to switch to Herald if they have one.

I think it’s silly to ask for Hammer buffs, if this thread was even serious to begin with.

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Posted by: Malchior.5732

Malchior.5732

I’ll also just point out it’s common to find Revs in WvW getting AA’s to hit for almost the same damage as most berserker DH’s True Shots due to their ample and substantive damage modifiers.

I ran Invocation/Devastation/Herald with full Zojja’s. My Hammer autos definitely weren’t hitting for True Shot damage.
I think I was averaging more around 2k-3k and more rarely I’d hit 4k.

A bit of footage from the night I unlocked Herald. Full exotics aside from amulet and rings. Mix of Berserker, Valkyrie and Cavalier. Typical might stacks.

Hammer auto is VERY strong, as are Hammer 5 and 3. It’s just that everything, and I do mean everything, pales in comparison to the still broken CoR.

Thanks for proving my information then.
Literally, the only time your autos ever surpassed 4k (or 3k for that matter), you had Cruel Repercussions active, which is a strange, over-punishing trait that only seems good on Hammer.

For such a slow auto-attack and a weapon with 0 kiting, and the fact that we ran full damage traits, it seems fair. The issues with Hammer damage keep stemming back to Cruel Repercussions. If you think it’s too much, then let me point you to Ranger Longbow, which has about as much damage (or more) at 1000+ range, shoots faster, and has better range along with kiting abilities and stealth.

Granted it is hard to glean much from a short video, especially in WvW. There are just too many variables. But 3k+ autos were happening more often than Cruel Repercussions would allow for in this short, half speed video. Also, some targets were higher armor which scales down damage. I’m pretty sure any auto attacks over 4k were due to the proc.

I also have a Ranger and I’ll agree that Longbow seems most similar to Herald Hammer in WvW. Primary difference being that Ranger must go full Berserker to even approach similar damage output. Herald boons, traits and enhanced fury allow for more defensive stats, on top of inherently more survivability.

Simply put, in WvW, Hammer Herald is an offensive juggernaut. One of the biggest difference makers on the field. This is pretty well known, and many commanders are asking people to switch to Herald if they have one.

I think it’s silly to ask for Hammer buffs, if this thread was even serious to begin with.

The biggest reason for that was/is CoR. Hammer really doesn’t have much else going for it, especially in the other modes.
Sure, the Revenant can take more of a beating than the Ranger, unless it has to do with Conditions and CC, then the Ranger has a much higher chance to survive. Not to mention that Ranger has longer range with LB and can kite/stealth much better (more utility/survivability and nearly the same damage, at least in autos).

It’s really just that CoR, within the safety of a zerg, lets you wreak havoc and you can auto-attack without worry. It’s just the nature of WvW: you can have a backline that can spam incredibly powerful skills.
The problem stems from a lack of counter-play of CoR in these spam-fests along with Cruel Repercussions. Yes, the auto-attacks are strong, but you have to take full damage traits and at the very least, almost full damage gear and even then, it’s so slow and the weapon overall is so lacking that it’s more than fair.

Now, to me, I don’t think asking for Hammer buffs is silly. You can’t ignore that Hammer is pretty bad in both sPvP and PvE. It’s really only used at all because it’s our only ranged option, but it has poor DPS, bad kiting skills, and very slow animations.
What I mean when I think hammer should get buffed is more that we should shift the power from CoR (while giving it better counterplay) into the other skills and give 3 and 5 more utility, because they’re pretty worthless as is. 4 could be faster as well.

Basically, Hammer is only used in WvW because it can safely spam, but it’s crap everywhere else. Anet should change it so it’s useful everywhere and not just a one-trick pony, because its only real use right now is still spam.