Just wow, i don´t understand that change, especially if you look at skills like whirlwind or hundred blades. I´d like to know why Anet thought this skill is overpowered, it´s hard to land and takes some time to reach max damage. It also needs an enemy standing still.
The Iron Triangle – Desolation
Leina Shade | Svea Lightbringer | Maximus Ironhide | Mara Deathblossom
S/P will still be viable even with this. Spamming PW isn’t smart, never was.It’s a skill best used with a proper set up.
The major issue was never with the skill but it’s synergy with Quickness (but that’s not a problem limited to just thieves and no, the mechanics doesn’t need any changes besides maybe a skill speed reduction to 1.5x and a longer duration in exchange; remember that all Haste skills for all classes have penalties). The damage reduction stresses this and is intended to counter that.
No trolling, the fact is, 100B is easy to counter, and so is Whirlwind, whereas PW is instagib and takes no skill and is nearly impossible to counter when it lands. But like I have said elsewhere, haste is the issue, not PW.
Seriously though, it seems like Anet kind of missed the point here. It wasn’t Pistol Whip that was the problem. It’s the combination of skills that thieves have access to use in combination.
Small nerfs to quickness, and maybe initiative costs should be the first steps. NOT outright damage cuts.
Problem is the nerf was needed for spvp + wvwvw not really for pve, but should have solved the quickness problems. Because in pve I don’t even use the quickness incremental in my build so this nerf hurts me a lot.
This reduction is ridiculous. Pistol whip is a major tool for thief PvE, either soloing or dungeon run and it’s being struck down to oblivion without any counters to keep the thief viable in PvE.
Thieves already have a hard time being picked for dungeon runs and s/p was pretty much the only viable melee combo in dungeon situations where aoe is required. Bringing high damage output was one of our very few advandages and anet decided to throw it down the drain just because of a once every 50 seconds spvp imbalance.
It’s not the end of all thieves but it has reduced our viable weapon sets.
We have 6 weapon combinations… note I say combinations.
D/D, D/P, P/D, P/P
S/P, S/D
SB
That’s six weapon sets. Out of those six, the top four are virtually identical apart from the dual skill. They provide the same options in slots 1-2 and slot 4-5. So effectively we only really have 4 weapon options and 2 half options. You can remove S/D from those options because flanking strike is broken, and now you can remove S/P from those options because pistol whip is useless. So you now only have the option of going dagger/dagger, or shortbow.
I told you that the nerf will come… and I am sure this is not the end of all thief nerfs
It’s always amazing that some folks get so giddy when other classes are nerfed. The thing that I hate most about the current state of MMO’s is the never ending whine→nerf→whine cycle.
Quickness is a bit lame. Haste as a utility skill feels more to me like an elite ability. Why is one of the thief’s venoms an elite slot? Why is haste a regular utility? I like pistol whip but not for cheese burst, it is necessary to builds that want more versatility than cloak and dagger / shadow rejuvenation. The evasive attack is one of the best for well rounded playstyle
@obtuse Well that would be a better idea, but I think it would be way to short for an elite skill compare to the mesmers Time Warp elite: 10 freaken secs of quickness, I wouldn’t even need to use my own haste ability but could spam PW for 10secs straight. So if they remove haste(quickness) from thief they’ll have to remove it from EVERYONE and Anet isn’t going to do that.
I find it funny in MMO’s how people scream about this class or that one How they’re OP and need nerfed without thinking about the adverse way it could effect them and there classes (Happened in SWTOR with the Sage/Sorc). While it’s somewhat less of an issue in this game as everyone has the tools to take care of themselves, I still see a time in the near future where no one will want to run dungeons or whatever content with us because where’re not “strong enough”
Its always been like this. People whine about the thief/rogue/stealth class in every game. The nerf is Ok, but I hope they don’t continue doing this till the class is in stone age.
Smart Thieves will always find new ways to kill people..
Its always been like this. People whine about the thief/rogue/stealth class in every game. The nerf is Ok, but I hope they don’t continue doing this till the class is in stone age.
Smart Thieves will always find new ways to kill people..
Is S/P still a viable leveling build? That really depends on how you play it. If you are constantly spamming Black Powder and using the Sword #1 to mostly kill mobs, then nothing has really changed. (For that style, Pistol Whip is for anti-Blind mobs like the Dredge and for when you need a spike of damage.) Yet if you were planing on playing a crit focused glass cannon build that spams Pistol Whip in a race to kill the mobs before you implode, then this nerf could have a noticeable impact in your performance.
Yes, it’s still a viable leveling build. Having said that, the glass cannon style of this build got noticeably hit with the patch. I’m honestly not sure just how dramatic of a change this is for PvE since I haven’t played my Thief lately.
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for solo no brain pve i suggest anything with pistol off hand and some ini regen.
in main hand: sword is slower but aoe, dagger is faster but single target.
No trolling, the fact is, 100B is easy to counter, and so is Whirlwind, whereas PW is instagib and takes no skill and is nearly impossible to counter when it lands. But like I have said elsewhere, haste is the issue, not PW.
If you aren’t able to avoid at least 80% of all PW made by thieves, the problem isn’t in the skill, it’s in you. Simple as that.
This nerf makes no sense, as the change to BV: it was almost useless before, now there’s no reason at all to choose it instead of TG or DS. Yay!
If a thief misses their Immobilize + haste + PW combo. They are down for. They have no dodge. No stealth (other than heal). Lay into them. That is their counter.
Thats so far off base i cant even imagine it. Unless the thief is terrible and continues to spam abilites and not hit somone there should be enough time to return after the root. After that swap to SB and have enough to get one SS off to get away.
If as a theif you run all utility in order to kill someone and cant get away thats not the fault of a skill.
First of all pistol whip was overpowered, no getting around that. It evades attacks, stuns, and does heavy damage 4 times in a row. FYI the 15% damage nerf wasnt gamebreaking, I constantly get 10k crits with PW, 15% of that is 1.5k, thats still 8.5k damage, more than enough.
My only issue with this change is that they did it before looking at Quickness. PW with quickness is a completely different animal compared to PW without.
Kintari | Rintaki | Rin Taki | Kian Tir | Zahinn | Lith <<< Blackgate >>>
My only issue with this change is that they did it before looking at Quickness. PW with quickness is a completely different animal compared to PW without.
The major problem with a lot of abilities is haste, not the ability itself. Let’s face it, if you sit through a full channel of unhasted PW you deserve to take the full damage.
I would rather they apply a 15% damage reduction to all quickness related skills in the game.
My only issue with this change is that they did it before looking at Quickness. PW with quickness is a completely different animal compared to PW without.
The major problem with a lot of abilities is haste, not the ability itself. Let’s face it, if you sit through a full channel of unhasted PW you deserve to take the full damage.
I would rather they apply a 15% damage reduction to all quickness related skills in the game.
Exactly. I think it’s obvious to anybody paying attention that they will have to tone down Quickness. Changing Quickness will impact a lot of things, but it will impact channeled abilities like Pistol Whip and Hundred Blades the most. So I don’t understand why they would nerf PW base damage first. It just seems … not the smart way to go about it.
Kintari | Rintaki | Rin Taki | Kian Tir | Zahinn | Lith <<< Blackgate >>>
IMO this nerf is good to cripple faceroll pistolwhip builds but quickness nerf would work way better. Actually the quickness mechanics are doing more wrong than good(talking about balance ofkz) in most cases in my opinion. Just look at pistolwhip/hundred blades or finishing the downed opponent.
Boo hoo. I find it highly amusing that Thieves of all classes are complaining. The Thief class has one of the easiest 100%-0% combo in the game (not the highest, just easier than most other classes) a 15% reduction on a spam able skill is nothing. Just look what Eles got hit with, THIRTY THREE PERCENT.
I’ll let that sink in a bit. THIRTY THREE PERCENT. On a skill that has like a two minute cooldown. Is it really so terrible that Arenanet is actually balancing the game and making it so to be good you have to, you know, use ALL of your skills instead of just 2?
Don’t get me wrong, I am by no means gloating about a Thief nerf. I do think it is justified though seeing as how they just have to spam 2 or 3 buttons to get the job done (similar to most other classes).
I will admit that I mainly play an Elementalist, but that is purely for the play style and not the damage. I tried a Thief in sPvP, the damage was sickening. I could be half as coherent and hit 1/4 the buttons as a Thief (and actually kill someone) than I can do on my Elementalist (which only makes them run away or just plain finish me).
Boo hoo. I find it highly amusing that Thieves of all classes are complaining. The Thief class has one of the easiest 100%-0% combo in the game (not the highest, just easier than most other classes) a 15% reduction on a spam able skill is nothing. Just look what Eles got hit with, THIRTY THREE PERCENT.
I’ll let that sink in a bit. THIRTY THREE PERCENT. On a skill that has like a two minute cooldown. Is it really so terrible that Arenanet is actually balancing the game and making it so to be good you have to, you know, use ALL of your skills instead of just 2?
Don’t get me wrong, I am by no means gloating about a Thief nerf. I do think it is justified though seeing as how they just have to spam 2 or 3 buttons to get the job done (similar to most other classes).
I will admit that I mainly play an Elementalist, but that is purely for the play style and not the damage. I tried a Thief in sPvP, the damage was sickening. I could be half as coherent and hit 1/4 the buttons as a Thief (and actually kill someone) than I can do on my Elementalist (which only makes them run away or just plain finish me).
What I find ‘highly amusing’ is how you seem unable to find the elementalist forum. That, and the QQing about a nerf to an underwater elite. I play an Ele alt, and certainly didn’t think they needed a nerf, but you’re just asking to be trolled with this. Take it somewhere else.
Kintari | Rintaki | Rin Taki | Kian Tir | Zahinn | Lith <<< Blackgate >>>
Thieves have only got one elite that is usable underwater as well, and it’s not very useful, does no damage, and it also just got a nerf on the pvp side of it that can be a 100% decrease in effectiveness.
Anyway, most thieves aren’t complaining that the class was nerfed, we’re complaining that it was done wrong. Pistol Whip was never an issue, it was only problematic when combined with Quickness. And it still is problematic when combined with quickness, as are several other abilities.
Don’t get me wrong, I am by no means gloating about a Thief nerf. I do think it is justified though seeing as how they just have to spam 2 or 3 buttons to get the job done (similar to most other classes).
On a thief skillset you usualy have 1/2 damaging skills and 3/4 defense and/or support skills. Since this nerf affacts burst builds mostly i will focus on them. A burst build is suppose to take down an enemy ASAP so they use damaging skills only. if they would use any other they would ruin their initiative (a gift and a curse). You say that other classes have to use more skills to perform a burst. Agreed they use more skills but they still have a few abilities left to do anything else then just burst. If a thief could use different skills to burst down an enemy sure he would. But using Black Powder to nuke an enemy just wont work.
I play a thief and i am definatly for nerfing the PS build only i do not think this is the right way to go. Ahh well at least we get some variation in thief pvp now:)
Don’t get me wrong, I am by no means gloating about a Thief nerf. I do think it is justified though seeing as how they just have to spam 2 or 3 buttons to get the job done (similar to most other classes).
On a thief skillset you usualy have 1/2 damaging skills and 3/4 defense and/or support skills. Since this nerf affacts burst builds mostly i will focus on them. A burst build is suppose to take down an enemy ASAP so they use damaging skills only. if they would use any other they would ruin their initiative (a gift and a curse). You say that other classes have to use more skills to perform a burst. Agreed they use more skills but they still have a few abilities left to do anything else then just burst. If a thief could use different skills to burst down an enemy sure he would. But using Black Powder to nuke an enemy just wont work.
I play a thief and i am definatly for nerfing the PS build only i do not think this is the right way to go. Ahh well at least we get some variation in thief pvp now:)
I doubt you’ll get more variation. In fact, I’d say there’s less variation now. It’s dual dagger backstab build or… dual dagger backstab build. Or pistol whip, since they didn’t really address the real issue with pistol whip builds.
@CptCosmic: All this nerf did is make more people take up daggers. Swords are now useless on both builds OUTSIDE of using quickness with pistol whip in PVP.
It was already niche in PVP, and it remains niche in PVP just less effective.
it was good in PVE, now it’s awful in PVE.
We went from Shortbow, Sword/Pistol, Dagger/Pistol, Dagger/Dagger, and Pistol/Dagger as having niches to work in (P/D only being useful in niche condition builds for PVP), and now we only have Shortbow, Dagger builds, and Pistol/Dagger if you’re condition spec.
@bwillb I believe the interaction with Quickness and any other haste skill can’t really be fixed all that easily. It is how the game is designed and it interacts the same across all classes.
If they were to change it so that the Thief class doesn’t benefit from faster execution or ability speed would that not kind of kitten the class? If there is a problem with a global mechanic then you don’t nerf it for just one class. If there is an issue you fix the skills that are benefiting too heavily from it, not nerf the entire global mechanic.
The entire global mechanic is what’s OP though. Some skills benefit from it more than others, but the whole thing is OP. Pistol Whip without haste was not OP; fairly weak, in fact. They didn’t “fix” anything, they just gave a flat damage nerf to an already subpar skill because of how it could interact with another skill, and that’s just not the right way of doing things. That’s the LAZY way of doing things. That’s the unbalanced way of doing things.
The issue is quickness. Quickness is too powerful across the board. They have known this since BWE1, that’s why they first reduced the duration of quickness, and then added penalties to quickness on demand skills.
What has to be nerfed is the magnitude of the attack speed increase. +100% is too high. In GW1 +33% was the highest, maybe they should look into that, give PW back its base damage so that it’s actually useful, and make quickness not such a god mode proc/utility.
Any multi hit combo benefits too much from Quickness but the multi hit combos are fine without quickness (though 100B is a bit too much IMO, how pistol whip doing half of its damage gets nerfed but 100b being left alone is okay is beyond me, I can only blame an incompetent warrior biased Developer for that)
The entire global mechanic is what’s OP though. Some skills benefit from it more than others, but the whole thing is OP. Pistol Whip without haste was not OP; fairly weak, in fact. They didn’t “fix” anything, they just gave a flat damage nerf to an already subpar skill because of how it could interact with another skill, and that’s just not the right way of doing things. That’s the LAZY way of doing things. That’s the unbalanced way of doing things.
Right. And it isn’t a question of “do we nerf PW or do we nerf Quickness”. Quickness WILL get nerfed sooner or later, you can take that to the bank, because 100% increase is just too good. So why not do it first, and then bring abilities like PW and/or HB into line after?
Kintari | Rintaki | Rin Taki | Kian Tir | Zahinn | Lith <<< Blackgate >>>
The issue is quickness. Quickness is too powerful across the board. They have known this since BWE1, that’s why they first reduced the duration of quickness, and then added penalties to quickness on demand skills.
What has to be nerfed is the magnitude of the attack speed increase. +100% is too high. In GW1 +33% was the highest, maybe they should look into that, give PW back its base damage so that it’s actually useful, and make quickness not such a god mode proc/utility.
Any multi hit combo benefits too much from Quickness but the multi hit combos are fine without quickness (though 100B is a bit too much IMO, how pistol whip doing half of its damage gets nerfed but 100b being left alone is okay is beyond me, I can only blame an incompetent warrior biased Developer for that)
Yeah that sounds about right. Bit off on the numbers (GW1 was max 33% IAS, yes, but that was actually a 33% reduction in the swing timer, which results in 50% more hits), but you’ve got the idea. Actually, BUFF pistol whip because it was already kind of weak without haste before the nerf. Then reduce quickness effectiveness (it’s currently 50% reduced activation time, which means 100% faster attack speed. change that to 33% reduced activation time, which is 50% faster attack speed) and then make it longer duration or shorter cooldown to give it more uptime. Maybe even classify it as a boon so it can be ripped like pretty much any other buff.
Pistol Whip had a high damage output and was also a stun. When combined with an initiative regen build, it allowed far more stuns then classes have counters. Add to that the great ability of theives to close gaps and it made for a very frustrating opponent who may have only been spamming 2 or 3 abilities.
15% may have been harsh or may have been too little. Time will tell, and I am sure ANET has its ever present eye still focused on theives.
Pistol Whip had a high damage output and was also a stun. When combined with an initiative regen build, it allowed far more stuns then classes have counters. Add to that the great ability of theives to close gaps and it made for a very frustrating opponent who may have only been spamming 2 or 3 abilities.
15% may have been harsh or may have been too little. Time will tell, and I am sure ANET has its ever present eye still focused on theives.
It was a .5 second stun. Even with quickness, you could not perma-stun someone. You always had time to dodge roll.
Common bud, all of us have played thieves (whether by design choice or frustration alt). A .5 second stun does not sound like much, but add to that the fact that you can do it 6 times in a row (dodge = 2 times in a row), and it is debilitating.
You cannot Pistol Whip six times in a row. With haste, it’s only three times before Haste wears off. If you’re still standing in the incredibly slow move, you’re just bad.
