Guild Wars 2

Forum bug.

Just wanted to put an idea forward. Since they’re changing this trait (maybe), perhaps they could move some utility /defense into a more active role with the CS traitline. While Acro will become reactive/passive with stuff like “don’t stop,” “HtC,” “pain response,” etc., why not put more active versions of these into the CS line. Something like “gain 5 endurance on crit, 1 sec icd” so it ensures that you stay aggressive in combat, and the more aggressive, the more you benefit. This would pair well with IP for instance. Maybe instead of asking for them to not make the changes in acro, we should ask them to make the inverse of this style play also available so builds become more distinct.

Ritt.3069:

kaikalii.4198:

2. You forgot that we also get a new grandmaster that gives a chance to evade projectiles while we have swiftness, and we still get swiftness on dodge.

So, we’re to swap a trait that promotes active defenses to mitigate pretty much anything for a passive random proc against projectiles? Hooray for passive play, the forte of GW2!

What’s the point of nerfing the trait anyways? The only popular build that uses it is the S/D and that’s in name only, since we get outnumbered by the D/P thieves in every game mode as is. I guess the nerfs are being made to feed the vanity of bad players seeing all their key skills miss and go nuts about “infinite evades omg ezmud plux nerfz”. I really hope they rethink this; even if it was 1 sec cd, as pointed out, it will hardly ever proc and will be weaker by default (get the evade immediatly vs. accumulate the same amount in 2s). I’ve been playing S/D for more than a year and a half and would hate to be forced to completely swap into D/P and/or elite spec just because of some nerf that has no basis or reason to even happen at all.

I agree with this entire post +1

Maugetarr.6823:

Just wanted to put an idea forward. Since they’re changing this trait (maybe), perhaps they could move some utility /defense into a more active role with the CS traitline. While Acro will become reactive/passive with stuff like “don’t stop,” “HtC,” “pain response,” etc., why not put more active versions of these into the CS line. Something like “gain 5 endurance on crit, 1 sec icd” so it ensures that you stay aggressive in combat, and the more aggressive, the more you benefit. This would pair well with IP for instance. Maybe instead of asking for them to not make the changes in acro, we should ask them to make the inverse of this style play also available so builds become more distinct.

Not that this is a bad idea, but if they did that, Accro would be so useless as a spec, that no one would pick it up unless they’re masochist or something. I really do enjoy our current Accro and there’s no reason for it to change. If making petitions we’re possible I’d make one for stopping the accro changes xD

Why do you bother thinking about s/d?! Developers want all thiefs run d/p in stronghold so other specs are nerfed. kitten sd, Even now i gave up on s/d in roder to play d/p

Phantom Master.9582:

MatthiasL.5346:

It’s fine because it will proc with fs/ls , sb#3, pw…( that’s what they said in stream). If you think about it, it’s more like a buff.

Its not a buff, if you do the math, we still don’t get the same amount of endurance back.

2seconds of vigor (with the +20% vigor buff) = ~ 15 extra endurance(Same from current)

But we only get a proc with a cooldown of 3 seconds, since this depends on if the opponent throws out a dodge worthy skill, lets make it ~3.5seconds.

How many times do you have to roll within the first 3.5seconds? If its an* aggresive necro or warrior that answer should be around 3. Which means we get 45 endurance back, but with our ’’buff’’ we get… 15… and wont get another 15 for more than 3seconds.

Your math is still wrong because current s/d thief has a 6s downtime on vigor every 21s meaning we are losing 15 per dodge ( lets assume your only dodging 8 times in 21s ) and 120 endurance ( 4 dodges ) for 6s of vigor ( less than one dodge and 20% faster endurance regen = only roughly 2 dodges every 21s) = bad tradeoff especially if vigor does not stack with the 40% faster endurance regen food ( fortunately I believe it does but I haven’t tested it and if it does they might nerf it :C ). So this is a trade off of roughly 4 dodge roles for 2 dodge rolls. Meaning this is a net loss even if you obtain perma vigor, therefore is a direct nerf. Anet should consider wether or not this is a good nerf or if a simple change in mechanics is what they really wanted.

I already stopped using S/D months ago so don’t really care anymore. Just throw it in the junk pile next to P/P and be done with it.

Been playing S/D since launch, no complaints here. Swindler’s Equilibrium is the best buff we’ve gotten since Larcenous Strike rework. I’m glad to see this change is weeding out the bads and the casuals though, go switch over to D/P, just makes me feel more special and unique.

Hey its getting buffs outside of feline grace nerf so its not like this is the end of the world lol, It just might be subject to the power creep problem.

Sadrien.3470:

Hey its getting buffs outside of feline grace nerf so its not like this is the end of the world lol, It just might be subject to the power creep problem.

I’m surprised none of you are considering the fact that all classes are getting these additional traits buffs, its expected of thief to also get them get them, balance is relative to the other classes. We’re still getting very nerfed in the big picture.

Donut.6914:

Been playing S/D since launch, no complaints here. Swindler’s Equilibrium is the best buff we’ve gotten since Larcenous Strike rework. I’m glad to see this change is weeding out the bads and the casuals though, go switch over to D/P, just makes me feel more special and unique.

Being honest here… you sound like a pretty mean dude. What’s the point of this post?

Phantom Master.9582:

Donut.6914:

snip

Being honest here… you sound like a pretty mean dude. What’s the point of this post?

Just let it go man. Personal merits and skill aside, this guy is obviously a super strong contender and the rest of us bads just don’t compare.

Ritt.3069:

Phantom Master.9582:

Donut.6914:

snip

Being honest here… you sound like a pretty mean dude. What’s the point of this post?

Just let it go man. Personal merits and skill aside, this guy is obviously a super strong contender and the rest of us bads just don’t compare.

With a name like Donut, you know he is the voice of reason.

I am just wondering one thing:

- The Base Endurance Regen is 50 endurance per 10 seconds right? (So that means 5 per second) With normal vigor this is another 5 endurance right?

- But I take the 20% increase of vigor to make vigor 120% effective, which means it regens 6 endurance right?

- Does that mean we only get 1 endurance extra per second for the grandmaster minor? Which means we would have to wait 50 seconds under vigor to get an extra dodge?

Or am I wrong at this? Of course they are still tweaking the numbers, but I hope they would buff the vigor rate to around 150? Or do you guys think that is too much?

I also believe something like this would be cool:

Something like “gain 5 endurance on crit, 1 sec icd” so it ensures that you stay aggressive in combat, and the more aggressive, the more you benefit.

Some active behaviour needed to get some extra endurance! It would also be nice if the vigor cooldown would be lowered to 2 so we could at least have semi-permantent vigor if we would play perfectly. (Which is not the case since we’re human:P)

But just some suggestions, I bet they are working kitten it too. So let’s be patient guys and not rage about things that aren’t even confirmed yet. Though it’s good to point out what the player base things about some changes.

EDIT: That possible trait I mentioned above might be a bit too OP on the auto attack of D/P though or S/P. (Image how much endurance you could get from a basic pistol whip) But the general idea is nice.

Strategist.6132:

Or am I wrong at this? Of course they are still tweaking the numbers, but I hope they would buff the vigor rate to around 150? Or do you guys think that is too much?

This has been mentioned before when the changes were first announced. If they changed the vigor trait to a 50% increase it would still be a nerf but closer to what we are used to with the current FG trait.

Copy pasting the math from another thread, provided by Maugetarr.6823

Math for FG and the change:
Baseline Endurance: 50(endurance)/5(endurance per second)=10 seconds per dodge
Baseline FG Endurance: 35(endurance)/(5 endurance per second)=7 seconds per dodge
Vigor Endurance: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2)(endurance per second)=5 seconds per dodge
New trait: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2.2) (endurance per second)=4.5454 seconds per dodge
Suggested trait (50% increase): 50 (endurance)/(5*2.5)(endurance per second)=4 seconds per dodge.
Current Vigor+FG: 35(endurance)/(5*2)(endurance per second=3.5 seconds per dodge

I am not totally 100% up to date on the thief changes haven’t played for a while ….

but my one question is how will this affect our access to swiftness

before we could keep almost 100% swiftness up time with gain swiftness on dodge because our endurance always recharged mixed with bountiful theft

now that we are required to dodge an attack to gain vigor how is this going to affect our swiftness up time ?

anotherduck.8730:

Strategist.6132:

Or am I wrong at this? Of course they are still tweaking the numbers, but I hope they would buff the vigor rate to around 150? Or do you guys think that is too much?

This has been mentioned before when the changes were first announced. If they changed the vigor trait to a 50% increase it would still be a nerf but closer to what we are used to with the current FG trait.

Copy pasting the math from another thread, provided by Maugetarr.6823

Math for FG and the change:
Baseline Endurance: 50(endurance)/5(endurance per second)=10 seconds per dodge
Baseline FG Endurance: 35(endurance)/(5 endurance per second)=7 seconds per dodge
Vigor Endurance: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2)(endurance per second)=5 seconds per dodge
New trait: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2.2) (endurance per second)=4.5454 seconds per dodge
Suggested trait (50% increase): 50 (endurance)/(5*2.5)(endurance per second)=4 seconds per dodge.
Current Vigor+FG: 35(endurance)/(5*2)(endurance per second=3.5 seconds per dodge

Just wanted to add the math for the change to 5 endurance on crit proposal.
(Assuming a crit exactly when it comes off CD)

EoC: 5*5(EoC)=25 endurance+5seconds endurance regen= 5 seconds per dodge
EoC + Vigor: 3*5(EoC)+3.5 seconds*(5*2 endurance per second)=50 endurance= 3.5 seconds per dodge.

Assuming you crit exactly when the EoC comes off CD, this change would equal the current FG, but require much more aggressive play. In practice, it would probably be something more like 4-4.5 seconds per dodge while playing aggressively (with vigor), and no benefit while spamming dodges.

Maugetarr.6823:

anotherduck.8730:

Strategist.6132:

Or am I wrong at this? Of course they are still tweaking the numbers, but I hope they would buff the vigor rate to around 150? Or do you guys think that is too much?

This has been mentioned before when the changes were first announced. If they changed the vigor trait to a 50% increase it would still be a nerf but closer to what we are used to with the current FG trait.

Copy pasting the math from another thread, provided by Maugetarr.6823

Math for FG and the change:
Baseline Endurance: 50(endurance)/5(endurance per second)=10 seconds per dodge
Baseline FG Endurance: 35(endurance)/(5 endurance per second)=7 seconds per dodge
Vigor Endurance: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2)(endurance per second)=5 seconds per dodge
New trait: 50 (endurance)/ (5*2.2) (endurance per second)=4.5454 seconds per dodge
Suggested trait (50% increase): 50 (endurance)/(5*2.5)(endurance per second)=4 seconds per dodge.
Current Vigor+FG: 35(endurance)/(5*2)(endurance per second=3.5 seconds per dodge

Just wanted to add the math for the change to 5 endurance on crit proposal.
(Assuming a crit exactly when it comes off CD)

EoC: 5*5(EoC)=25 endurance+5seconds endurance regen= 5 seconds per dodge
EoC + Vigor: 3*5(EoC)+3.5 seconds*(5*2 endurance per second)=50 endurance= 3.5 seconds per dodge.

Assuming you crit exactly when the EoC comes off CD, this change would equal the current FG, but require much more aggressive play. In practice, it would probably be something more like 4-4.5 seconds per dodge while playing aggressively (with vigor), and no benefit while spamming dodges.

And it can also be stolen, nullifed, removed, corrupted, or mimic’d, All of which are effects that cannot be easily avoided.

just noting. c:

It’s fine feline grace is broken they needed to nerf it, I was hoping a new whole trait tho.

Btw you got FS now as an evade, also signet of agility + sigil of energy thats a lot of evades.

We’ve got some nice buffs so it’s a fair trade imo.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ritt.3069:

Phantom Master.9582:

Donut.6914:

snip

Being honest here… you sound like a pretty mean dude. What’s the point of this post?

Just let it go man. Personal merits and skill aside, this guy is obviously a super strong contender and the rest of us bads just don’t compare.

With a name like Donut, you know he is the voice of reason.

if you’re crying on the forums about a slight nerf to a trait that was too strong (while also getting plenty of buffs) then you’re bad, plain and simple

just git gud

Donut.6914:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ritt.3069:

Phantom Master.9582:

Donut.6914:

snip

Being honest here… you sound like a pretty mean dude. What’s the point of this post?

Just let it go man. Personal merits and skill aside, this guy is obviously a super strong contender and the rest of us bads just don’t compare.

With a name like Donut, you know he is the voice of reason.

if you’re crying on the forums about a slight nerf to a trait that was too strong (while also getting plenty of buffs) then you’re bad, plain and simple

just git gud

It’s not about the fact that it was (slightly) too good, but the combination of 2 of the minor traits wont be as good as 1 of the ones they are replacing, and eliminating the 10% damage trait. Sure, FG could be changed, but the possible change shown is not a good one.

Maugetarr.6823:

It’s not about the fact that it was (slightly) too good, but the combination of 2 of the minor traits wont be as good as 1 of the ones they are replacing, and eliminating the 10% damage trait. Sure, FG could be changed, but the possible change shown is not a good one.

Couldn’t have said it better imo, as a lot of people keep focusing on the buffs we get from being able to go full on the Deadly Arts trait line. Thing is they obviously omit the fact that every single other spec in the game, is also getting access to two additional major traits. The Acrobatics trait line that Anet showed us is arguably the second worst of all the lines they previewed( Yeah, i’m looking at you Critical Strikes)

Personally I’m still holding off from raising my pitchforks just because they said that numbers are subject to change and nothing is set in stone. There are already a lot of ways and great suggestions here in the forums that could promote skillful play for the S/D thief. Hopefully the devs will find the right path and won’t pigeonhole the class to one spec.

I guess I’m among the few that are looking forward to s/d when specs come out. Trickster looks so yummy. Guarded initiation with assassins reward also seems fun. I’m just worried about PvE, as it seems like all classes are getting super buffed. In fact, giving thief access to Mug, panic strike, and executioner in one line makes me excited by itself. Even after reading this, I honestly see no problems with the coming s/d thief, bunch of people overreacting and whining is pretty much what I see.

Klowde.9876:

I guess I’m among the few that are looking forward to s/d when specs come out. Trickster looks so yummy. Guarded initiation with assassins reward also seems fun. I’m just worried about PvE, as it seems like all classes are getting super buffed. In fact, giving thief access to Mug, panic strike, and executioner in one line makes me excited by itself. Even after reading this, I honestly see no problems with the coming s/d thief, bunch of people overreacting and whining is pretty much what I see.

Some people over reacted , other explained through math that this was a nerf, people stated their belief it was unnecessary, and done.

Donut.6914:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ritt.3069:

Phantom Master.9582:

Donut.6914:

snip

Being honest here… you sound like a pretty mean dude. What’s the point of this post?

Just let it go man. Personal merits and skill aside, this guy is obviously a super strong contender and the rest of us bads just don’t compare.

With a name like Donut, you know he is the voice of reason.

if you’re crying on the forums about a slight nerf to a trait that was too strong (while also getting plenty of buffs) then you’re bad, plain and simple

just git gud

Hmm about 30% is a slight nerf ??

At high level MMR, S/D was the de facto duelist. Every team comp had a S/D because it gave you near infinite dodges while still letting you go full glass damage.

It was really OP. On S/D you could dance circles around a melee warrior with blinds/dodges, effectively eliminating every warrior melee spec out of the meta.

This build was good, but it did need to die. Glad they saw this.

lordhelmos.7623:

At high level MMR, S/D was the de facto duelist. Every team comp had a S/D because it gave you near infinite dodges while still letting you go full glass damage.

It was really OP. On S/D you could dance circles around a melee warrior with blinds/dodges, effectively eliminating every warrior melee spec out of the meta.

This build was good, but it did need to die. Glad they saw this.

Because S/D has so many blinds available to it.

If you’re going to claim a build was OP, you should probably know how it actually worked. When you don’t know how it worked, you just end up looking silly.

Phantom Master.9582:

Fellow S/D Thieves, we’ve been nerfed over and over again and we’ve finally achieved a state of balance and we’re still kinda viable(for the most part).

We’re not too dangerous but we can still hold our own, however Hearth of Thorns might be our end. With the upcoming changes to Feline Grace, our main defensive trait is being reworked into a vigor trait.

At first I wasn’t too worried, 2 seconds of vigor is about the same amount of endurance we got back from dodging with the current version of this trait, and in fact it encourages us to always carefully time our dodges, or else we loose our biggest defence tool.

But then I noticed the 3 second cooldown, having a 1 second cooldown would be plenty to avoid this trait from activating more than once per evasion and still keep the build fine, however a 3 second cooldown is a cruel nerf, especially to a build that now barely holds itself viable.

I know this decision isn’t set in stone, but this change will most likely force all other good thieves to go D/P along with possibly the new elite specialisation. Please don’t limit our build diversity like this.

TL;DR: We’re getting nerfed to the ground.

Update: (To those saying this is a buff)
2seconds of vigor (with the +20% vigor buff) = ~ 15 extra endurance(Same from current)
But we only get a proc with a cooldown of 3 seconds, since this depends on if the opponent throws out a dodge worthy skill, lets make it ~3.5seconds.
How many times do you have to roll within the first 3.5seconds? If its a aggresive necro or warrior that answer should be around 3. Which means we get 45 endurance back, but with our ’’buff’’ we get… 15… and wont get another 15 for more than 3seconds.

Ensign.2189 Has a valid point here

I’ve spent a good amount of time watching replays of duels and small scale fights from a thief’s perspective to understand just how often this will actually proc; the best estimate seems to be about once every 10 seconds.

Yes, you dodge or FS important attacks more often than that, but because both of those involve a lot of movement they frequently take you out of range of the attack before it would land – which means they see a miss, you never see an evade, and FG would never trigger.

I’d been thinking this since first it was revealed. I hope ANet doesn’t keep it this way, or IN THE VERY LEAST changes it to be a “this effect cannot occur more than once per dodge,” similar to life steal on venom activations.

Same effect without the ridiculous overhead of multiple dodge sources being rendered moot and it prevents being “OP” because you cannot receive more than the approximate 15 endurance regen from any single dodge.

Doing that would — if points in prior posts about all evasions including dodge activating the Vigor effect are correct — in fact give acrobatic thieves a much-needed edge.

And speaking of changes:

What happened to Assassin’s Retreat?

Where is my ability to rack up 4 minutes of Swiftness and cruise through maps while I have a lovely time feeling awesome and can get rid of Signet of Shadows always being on my skill bar?

(Or, you know, the 45gp I dumped into Pack runes to make that happen and worthwhile)

(I think someone already mentionned it above)
Since Devs seem to expect more active/ reactive gameplay around evade with this new FG trait, i hope they will also tweak the skill queue for “evade skills”, and at least let thoses overwrite the Auto Attack so you can really hit the evade skill button and get your evade on reaction…
(Not sure i’m clear enough, am i?)

I understand the action/reaction goal with evasion skills they have in mind. But do they forget that this is an MMO? Most of us players have 100ping(some of us 200) and can’t do anything about it because we’re poor college kids.

S/D is not an easy build, its mechanically easy to use but requires knowledge of all the other classes’s offensive options to use efficiently (you can’t attack while dodging, beating a dodgespamming noob is easy).

If you know what ability is coming based on the situation and want to dodge it early, you shouldn’t have to specifically time your dodge to that ability, that just means the opponent was too predictable and wasted a cooldown skill because he didn’t feel like using his brain.

Does their new philosophy about evasion mean that lots of players will no longer be able to play these fun and thrilling builds, simply because they’re pings don’t allow them to do tight dodges?

I’ve played this game for 3k hours, have done about 5k games, and have played since the beginning of this games SPvP (when no effort was put into it), and it took all this time for PvP to become balanced-ish despite having static stats in SPvP aswell as balanced patches mostly focused on it. And now they actually think changing traits that don’t need to be changed is a good idea, hopefully that vicious cycle won’t restart.

Phantom Master.9582:

I understand the action/reaction goal with evasion skills they have in mind. But do they forget that this is an MMO? Most of us players have 100ping(some of us 200) and can’t do anything about it because we’re poor college kids.

No Dev in their right mind will ever balance a game based on some “poor college kids” slow connection and high pings.

If that is the case, change your profession.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Phantom Master.9582:

I understand the action/reaction goal with evasion skills they have in mind. But do they forget that this is an MMO? Most of us players have 100ping(some of us 200) and can’t do anything about it because we’re poor college kids.

No Dev in their right mind will ever balance a game based on some “poor college kids” slow connection and high pings.

If that is the case, change your profession.

Per 10 people I meet, 8 have a ping of ~100. (Lets not forget that most MMO players are young adults, mostly college kids)

Phantom Master.9582:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Phantom Master.9582:

I understand the action/reaction goal with evasion skills they have in mind. But do they forget that this is an MMO? Most of us players have 100ping(some of us 200) and can’t do anything about it because we’re poor college kids.

No Dev in their right mind will ever balance a game based on some “poor college kids” slow connection and high pings.

If that is the case, change your profession.

Per 10 people I meet, 8 have a ping of ~100. (Lets not forget that most MMO players are young adults, mostly college kids)

That’s irrelevant though because GW2 has other professions that can cater to those who have bad connections — like Warrior for instance.

fluffdragon.1523:

I’d been thinking this since first it was revealed. I hope ANet doesn’t keep it this way, or IN THE VERY LEAST changes it to be a “this effect cannot occur more than once per dodge,” similar to life steal on venom activations.

I’m with you there. What I think isn’t coming across with these ‘S/D is dead’ posts is that the new trait designs are way better, it’s just that the power is very low. The current Acrobatics is basically a grossly OP Feline Grace and several traits that depend upon Feline Grace and the boon duration to be effective. Killing Feline Grace is a good thing, that power just needs to be distributed elsewhere.

New Feline Grace is obviously weak at 2s duration / 3s recharge. It’s also pretty clearly strong at 4s duration / 1s recharge. Maybe it’s good at 2/1, maybe it needs to be 3/1; point being that the design is pretty good, and it’s just a matter of getting the numbers right. Same with Endless Stamina – at 20% it’s crap, at 100% it’s too good, at 50% it’s probably about right. 2s of swiftness on dodge is weak without Feline Grace and built in boon duration; 4s is probably right with the above changes. Assassin’s Equilibrium is a joke at 69 health per initiative, but would be sick at 200 health per initiative – something in the 100-150 range makes it solid but not oppressive. Etc, etc, etc.

There’s plenty to be excited about in the line, it just needs tuning.