Guild Wars 2

With all the changes that have come to the Thief class, and some very valid complaints, I think it is warranted to take a look at Stealth, currently one of the biggest things that is hindering the balancing of Thief is it’s ability to endlessly stack Stealth even after you implemented the 5 stack limit of stealth a couple years ago.

Right now one very good way to bring the Thief inline with its Stealth Application without completely making the mechanic useless is the implementation Game wide for a 1 Second ICD per application of Stealth, this will stop D/P builds from endlessly stacking Stealth (Ghost Thief/TrapperThief build) and loosen the monopoly that D/P has on all competitive game modes.

I was not the one to first suggest the 1 second ICD that honor belongs to babazhook.

What this small change will do is allow for you to be able to easily balance Thief since they won’t be able to Camp Stealth permanently. And stop a lot of the stealth abuse that happens in game.

Maybe… But not without guarantees and specifics plus details on what improvements we get in return.
I just don’t trust Anet with nerfs that Thief mains themselves ask for, for the sake of ‘Balance further down the line’.

Also, I think there’s other ways to go about achieving the goal of Balance that doesn’t include a nerf with such big of an impact.

This is a change I can totally get behind in concept, though I think they would need to revisit Blinding Powder, since the blash finisher + Black Powder is what’s really responsible for the potency behind its use.

Removing the ICD from stealth attacks and placing one on stealth acquisition would be a pretty major start to say the least. I’m not sure if 1s would really change anything for the most part, though. Given SA, you still end up with the same problem as currently, and it really doesn’t change much all things considered.

In all seriousness in order to fix the problem as a whole, it’d probably have to go to 1.5/2s with changes made to SR’s pulse rate/durations/field duration to account for this adjustment.

Frankly, I think the bigger fish to fry for more diversity on the thief come down to nerfs to Shadow Shot (you saw what happened when I equipped D/P last time we fought, and that wasn’t even activating the signets) and reworks to OH dagger (particularly when looking at D/D as a whole).

Edit: Proven below, I’ve debunked the idea as being meaningful. Reading my initial post again, I’d like to mention/clarify that I speak only on the context of power builds and that nerfs and changes to D/P would be contingent on reworks to the profession as a whole to improve it game-wide. I do not want to nerf the thief, but increase its pool of viable builds while keeping those builds fair and fun to fight both as and against.

DeceiverX.8361:

This is a change I can totally get behind in concept, though I think they would need to revisit Blinding Powder, since the blash finisher + Black Powder is what’s really responsible for the potency behind its use.

Removing the ICD from stealth attacks and placing one on stealth acquisition would be a pretty major start to say the least. I’m not sure if 1s would really change anything for the most part, though. Given SA, you still end up with the same problem as currently, and it really doesn’t change much all things considered.

In all seriousness in order to fix the problem as a whole, it’d probably have to go to 1.5/2s with changes made to SR’s pulse rate/durations/field duration to account for this adjustment.

Frankly, I think the bigger fish to fry for more diversity on the thief come down to nerfs to Shadow Shot (you saw what happened when I equipped D/P last time we fought, and that wasn’t even activating the signets) and reworks to OH dagger (particularly when looking at D/D as a whole).

If you look at how D/P stack stealth even with SA you would be able to stack at most 5 Seconds off of one BP from 2 leaps.

When a player is already stealthed, subsequent stealth applications should be reduced by 1s. So a Blinding Powder is still usable while stealthed but will only apply 2s of additional stealth rather than 3s. ICDs are just a horrible mechanic for a thief.

And I agree they should remove the stealth attack ICD at the same time.

@OP
That would only be acceptable if Revealed is removed in the process since we don’t really need this ICD plus the Revealed — that’s just crippling.

BP 4 secs
First leap 3/4 second
1 second ICD
2.25 sec BP remaining
Second leap 3/4 second
1 second ICD
.5 second BP remaining
Possible Third Leap

So if it was 1.25 sec ICD it would limit to 2 Leaps

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@OP
That would only be acceptable if Revealed is removed in the process since we don’t really need this ICD plus the Revealed — that’s just crippling.

Yes they will need to remove Revwaled from the game or remove Aoe non targeted reveal at the very least.

I’m hesitant to assume that this kind of change wouldn’t have unintended side effects. I would like it tested, however, to see if it improved the imbalance between D/P and the other weapons.

saerni.2584:

I’m hesitant to assume that this kind of change wouldn’t have unintended side effects. I would like it tested, however, to see if it improved the imbalance between D/P and the other weapons.

They will have to rework some traits like Shadow Rejuvination and so on though I see being the most apparent issue when implementing this

Ssssure, if they remove reveal from other classes and make stealth reduce dmg w/o traiting into it. Knowing Anet however, they will just flat out nerf thief again w/o any compensation. I would refrain from nerf threads if i were you – nothing good ever came from those, only thief being garbage for seasons.

Shadowstep this isn’t a Nerf thread but a way to fix why we have always been nerfed.

True. Frankly the duration cap hasn’t crossed my mind in a very long time :P
This exposes an issue with the 1s ideology, though.

Even normal D/P isn’t affected given this behavior on a 1s ICD – because the ICD would start after the .75s on HS, anyways.

It still leaves SA easily close to being capped with only two casts or easily capped with 3 while core D/P needs 3 but is otherwise unaffected, assuming a margin of error of .25s on the mis-timing the ICD timer slightly (nobody’s truly perfect) and for aftercast delays on HS.

Edit: Had to replace plus signs with & since the forums underlined everything >.>

Normal D/P:
T0: BP
T0.50: HS; Stealth(3s) – no margin for error on first cast with BP/no ICD.
T1.25 – T2.25: Stealth(3s -> 2s) / ICD / Mid-ICD HS;
T2.25 (&0.25): Stealth(2s -> 1.75s) & Stealth(3s)
T2.50 – T3.5: Wait; Stealth(1.75s -> .75s) & Stealth (3s) / Mid-ICD HS;
T3.5(&0.25) – T4.25: Stealth(.75s -> Expired) + Stealth (3s -> 2.75s) + Stealth(3s) = Capped & .75s on 3 casts

SA:
T0: T0: BP
T0.5: HS
T1.25 – T2.25: Stealth(4s -> 3s) / ICD
T2.25 – T3.25: Stealth(3s -> 2s) / HS
T3.25(&0.25) – T4.25: HS; Stealth (2s -> 1s) + Stealth (4s) = Capped at 5.0s on 2 casts

This indicates even on a 2s ICD, nothing would change except removing the ability for non-SA builds to keep stealth up in this way (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing), but does not impact SA-based builds.

Thus, to actually make an effective change, OOC stealth would need to be eliminated entirely/relegated to just SR/BliP or long-cooldown abilities/specific ones like MI /Veil (something I see as favorable for the whole game) or made close to a one-time deal on D/P (I.E, BP costs 10 initiative, HS increased to 4 initiative and returns 1 on target hit when not gaining stealth or something), which is pretty unreasonable and probably not happening, since this doesn’t fix the case with Daredevil using Bound, either.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shadowstep this isn’t a Nerf thread but a way to fix why we have always been nerfed.

Except they won’t fix anything – they will just flat out nerf stealth and will continue to do so. 4 years should have taught you something. They can add CD on stealth – there will be still QQ. They can remove stealth which they basically did in HoT – there is still QQ and nerfs.

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

Thief isn’t the only profession that abuses stealth mechanics. I think a much better solution would be to lower the stealth stack cap to 2. Then adjust outlier skills based off of that.

Like Shadow refuge-

Make it pulse 1 sec of stealth per second, then grant the rest of its current total duration on the final pulse as a single stack. Then remove the (stupid) revealed for leaving it early.

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

Nah, it is all WvW heroes thinking that other modes should suffer for the sake of their beloved duels. Thief will always be nerfed, people always will cry about class because it relies on mechanics that your average Joe doesn’t like to deal with – evades and stealth. I have seen people asking to delete the class because they don’t fight “honorably”.

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

First off let’s see what classes D/P hard counters, Non Mm Reapers, Thieves other than D/D DB spammers, even your amazing Staff thief will die to D/p, Revs get eaten alive by it especially now, Staff is highly telegraphed and a very clunky weapon leaving the thief open to a lot of punishment on most skills. And staff doesn’t directly counter any build it only directly counters bad players.

Again I am not a D/D enthusiast not in the slightest.

Shadow Refuge was killed a while ago I also proposed changes to SR a few days ago to combat this. and I said game wide so every form of stealth not Just Thief Stealth

Ps Stealth stacking is useless and highly underused in Pvp.

Shadowstep.6049:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

Nah, it is all WvW heroes thinking that other modes should suffer for the sake of their beloved duels. Thief will always be nerfed, people always will cry about class because it relies on mechanics that your average Joe doesn’t like to deal with – evades and stealth. I have seen people asking to delete the class because they don’t fight “honorably”.

The design of Stealth access D/P has access to has always been one of the main reasons for all the Nerfs and hardcounters being implemented.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shadowstep.6049:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

Nah, it is all WvW heroes thinking that other modes should suffer for the sake of their beloved duels. Thief will always be nerfed, people always will cry about class because it relies on mechanics that your average Joe doesn’t like to deal with – evades and stealth. I have seen people asking to delete the class because they don’t fight “honorably”.

The design of Stealth access D/P has access to has always been one of the main reasons for all the Nerfs and hardcounters being implemented.

Keep telling yourself that. Clearly acro also got nerfed because of dp lel.

Shadowstep.6049:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shadowstep.6049:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

Nah, it is all WvW heroes thinking that other modes should suffer for the sake of their beloved duels. Thief will always be nerfed, people always will cry about class because it relies on mechanics that your average Joe doesn’t like to deal with – evades and stealth. I have seen people asking to delete the class because they don’t fight “honorably”.

The design of Stealth access D/P has access to has always been one of the main reasons for all the Nerfs and hardcounters being implemented.

Keep telling yourself that. Clearly acro also got nerfed because of dp lel.

I’m talking recently, all the big Acro Nerfs happened years ago and was due to the actual perma evade S/D builds and to make room for an Elite Spec.

let’s look at all the Nerfs implemented for D/P stealth stacking the first and foremost Culling was abolished because of Thief, 5 stack Stealth limit, revealed being introduced, Black Powder Nerf, revealed being introduced on class skills, 2/3 of classes having reveal skills e of which are AoE reveals not needing a target, the gutting of a lot of Stealth traits from SA, ICD on Stealth attacks, Self Reveal on SR.

So go on, I have been with Thief since launch only doing PvP and WvW this change wouldn’t affect any other build besides D/P builds that rely on stacking Stealth, then they can remove the stupid skills like revealed, revert the 1 sec ICD on stealth attacks and so on.

Or…. revealed aoe was added on mostly used builds when engis got sneak gyro….

Has it really come to this? Has it really come to the point where people are asking for nerfs on a viable build so they would feel like other builds are stronger and can keep up the pace with d/p?

The second they would implement this ICD thing there would be a huge outcry from the whole thief community, everyone in this thread included. But then it would be too late. Just like it’s too late for backstab. I know nobody asked for backstab, but people very fast accepted it and some even said it was a good thing. Just like in that story where fox couldn’t reach the grapes to quench the thirst, so it said they are probably sour.

Many other professions are catching up on stealth with us and now you wanna nerf our stealth even more?

Better ask for buffs on less used weapons/skills/traits rather than gutting one of the few relatively decent things we still have.

martin.1653:

Has it really come to this? Has it really come to the point where people are asking for nerfs on a viable build so they would feel like other builds are stronger and can keep up the pace with d/p?

The second they would implement this ICD thing there would be a huge outcry from the whole thief community, everyone in this thread included. But then it would be too late. Just like it’s too late for backstab. I know nobody asked for backstab, but people very fast accepted it and some even said it was a good thing. Just like in that story where fox couldn’t reach the grapes to quench the thirst, so it said they are probably sour.

Many other professions are catching up on stealth with us and now you wanna nerf our stealth even more?

Better ask for buffs on less used weapons/skills/traits rather than gutting one of the few relatively decent things we still have.

Don’t bother, Jana syndrome is contagious it seems. There is no cure.

Like martin, I am a little confused at this as well…

Thieves really only bring two things to the game. Damage and Stealth. Anything else they can do utility-wise is done through Stealth, aside from Venomshare I mean… So if you nerf Stealth you’ll nerf overall thief utility.

Thief is only masters of Stealth by a small margin to begin with, as other classes are catching up on that, so if you lower the amount of stealth we can provide we’ll be even less desirable for group play.

I would rather see a buff to other areas before I saw a nerf to Stealth, honestly.

Stealth is a bit overabundant though, I would rather see shorter durations of Stealth and then Revealed done away with.

Actually, on a second thought, give us 1 sec icd on stealth, sure why not… BUT then in return give easy access to 25 stacks of might, easy access to protection, aegis, perma resistance, and perma stability.
edit: throw in some AoE alacrity or quickness for good measure.
Oh and I forgot 19k HP, please.
Because if some classes can have that why shouldn’t thief have it a well, as thief will be pretty dead stealth-wise.

@martin you want easy 25 stacks of Might? Run P/P….

You two do realize why Thief doesn’t get any of those things is the mobility/stealth/damage and with all the people crying about perma stealth they will do something worse, this is a reasonable change that affects all classes that use/abuse stealth. But I guess you don’t think about things.

I want the powercreep reduced game wide, and for Thieves to actually get some decent stuff but because of what Thief has access to they will never give anything, all this ICD will do is stop Stealth stack for perma stealth but you dont seem to grasp that concept.

Will any of these suggestion be considered? No they don’t look in these forums, and they will most likely guy SA even more for the next ES, and people will most likely hate stealth even more.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

First off let’s see what classes D/P hard counters, Non Mm Reapers, Thieves other than D/D DB spammers, even your amazing Staff thief will die to D/p, Revs get eaten alive by it especially now, Staff is highly telegraphed and a very clunky weapon leaving the thief open to a lot of punishment on most skills. And staff doesn’t directly counter any build it only directly counters bad players.

Again I am not a D/D enthusiast not in the slightest.

Shadow Refuge was killed a while ago I also proposed changes to SR a few days ago to combat this. and I said game wide so every form of stealth not Just Thief Stealth

Ps Stealth stacking is useless and highly underused in Pvp.

Sorry to say but this is totally wrong. Staff is good in some ways and so is d/p. Staff is a better duelling weapon and d/p is better at +1ing and stealthing for a decap. D/p DOES NOT counter staff. Staff is only highly telegraphed and clunky when you dont know how to use it and if ur spamming the skills. Otherwise, I would say staff > D/P and requires more skill. The only better thing about D/p is probably the headshots with PI and access to stealth. I know thief isn’t the strongest but as a wvw and pvper, thief is fine. D/p is probably the most viable in PvP and if u nerf the stealth, you lose decaps and you would probably make thieves even less viable.

If you want to nerf ghost thieves or trapper thieves, then nerf those builds. Mayb reveal on condi, or nerf trap stealth. There are many options. This sounds a lot like ur looking for an excuse to weaken D/P and I think shadowstep is totally right. It doesn’t make much sense imo. They dont need to nerf D/P, it’s not super op. Other weapon sets are weak and they should bring those in line.

Anyways, I dont agree, just my opinion.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

First off let’s see what classes D/P hard counters, Non Mm Reapers, Thieves other than D/D DB spammers, even your amazing Staff thief will die to D/p, Revs get eaten alive by it especially now, Staff is highly telegraphed and a very clunky weapon leaving the thief open to a lot of punishment on most skills. And staff doesn’t directly counter any build it only directly counters bad players.

Again I am not a D/D enthusiast not in the slightest.

Shadow Refuge was killed a while ago I also proposed changes to SR a few days ago to combat this. and I said game wide so every form of stealth not Just Thief Stealth

Ps Stealth stacking is useless and highly underused in Pvp.

Sorry to say but this is totally wrong. Staff is good in some ways and so is d/p. Staff is a better duelling weapon and d/p is better at +1ing and stealthing for a decap. D/p DOES NOT counter staff. Staff is only highly telegraphed and clunky when you dont know how to use it and if ur spamming the skills. Otherwise, I would say staff > D/P and requires more skill. The only better thing about D/p is probably the headshots with PI and access to stealth. I know thief isn’t the strongest but as a wvw and pvper, thief is fine. D/p is probably the most viable in PvP and if u nerf the stealth, you lose decaps and you would probably make thieves even less viable.

If you want to nerf ghost thieves or trapper thieves, then nerf those builds. Mayb reveal on condi, or nerf trap stealth. There are many options. This sounds a lot like ur looking for an excuse to weaken D/P and I think shadowstep is totally right. It doesn’t make much sense imo. They dont need to nerf D/P, it’s not super op. Other weapon sets are weak and they should bring those in line.

Anyways, I dont agree, just my opinion.

The fact that all I have to do to kill a Staff thief is press 3 and 1 tells me that D/P counters Staff pretty hard it doesn’t take any other skills or trying to even kite it the happens in high tier pvp as well as in WvW.

Nerfing stealth just Nerf the Decaps you don’t have to Stack stealth to be good at decapping the most you need is two Stacks and to use your mobility. I’m not wanting this Nerf in a vacuum I am asking for this change so they can revert some of the needless Nerfs/hardcounters they have introduced to Thief because people cry Stealth too Op!!

If they applied Reveal on Condi then D/P would be nerfed even harder than my suggestion because of Dagger AA, traps aren’t what keep ghost thief in perma stealth it is just D/P BP HS.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

VciouSidewinder.4029:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

First off let’s see what classes D/P hard counters, Non Mm Reapers, Thieves other than D/D DB spammers, even your amazing Staff thief will die to D/p, Revs get eaten alive by it especially now, Staff is highly telegraphed and a very clunky weapon leaving the thief open to a lot of punishment on most skills. And staff doesn’t directly counter any build it only directly counters bad players.

Again I am not a D/D enthusiast not in the slightest.

Shadow Refuge was killed a while ago I also proposed changes to SR a few days ago to combat this. and I said game wide so every form of stealth not Just Thief Stealth

Ps Stealth stacking is useless and highly underused in Pvp.

Sorry to say but this is totally wrong. Staff is good in some ways and so is d/p. Staff is a better duelling weapon and d/p is better at +1ing and stealthing for a decap. D/p DOES NOT counter staff. Staff is only highly telegraphed and clunky when you dont know how to use it and if ur spamming the skills. Otherwise, I would say staff > D/P and requires more skill. The only better thing about D/p is probably the headshots with PI and access to stealth. I know thief isn’t the strongest but as a wvw and pvper, thief is fine. D/p is probably the most viable in PvP and if u nerf the stealth, you lose decaps and you would probably make thieves even less viable.

If you want to nerf ghost thieves or trapper thieves, then nerf those builds. Mayb reveal on condi, or nerf trap stealth. There are many options. This sounds a lot like ur looking for an excuse to weaken D/P and I think shadowstep is totally right. It doesn’t make much sense imo. They dont need to nerf D/P, it’s not super op. Other weapon sets are weak and they should bring those in line.

Anyways, I dont agree, just my opinion.

The fact that all I have to do to kill a Staff thief is press 3 and 1 tells me that D/P counters Staff pretty hard it doesn’t take any other skills or trying to even kite it the happens in high tier pvp as well as in WvW.

Nerfing stealth just Nerf the Decaps you don’t have to Stack stealth to be good at decapping the most you need is two Stacks and to use your mobility. I’m not wanting this Nerf in a vacuum I am asking for this change so they can revert some of the needless Nerfs/hardcounters they have introduced to Thief because people cry Stealth too Op!!

If they applied Reveal on Condi then D/P would be nerfed even harder than my suggestion because of Dagger AA, traps aren’t what keep ghost thief in perma stealth it is just D/P BP HS.

Honestly, if u can hit a thief with 3, then its a bad thief. 3 is so ez to avoid on any thief build that it sounds like ur talking about some really crappy players. I generally use staff/dp when duelling tbh but I probably stick to staff more than D/P. Staff isnt very viable im pvp though since u cant +1 as well since they see you coming and u cant decap as well either which brings me to my other point.

If your fighting a druid lets say on legacy. If ur playing on legend, he will guard home. What generally happens is u +1 mid and ur looking to decap far. The druid will be staff or bow spamming on the platform towards their home and and use their staff 3 to go back home when they see u running towards home. Only way would be to have enough stealth to make it or take the long way in which case he might have noticed u missing anyways.

This gets worse with revs and guards cuz then they can JI and phase traversal if ur not stealth. Those extra bits of stealth really make a difference here. On top of that, ur usually alrdy low on initiative from either stealth or bow 5 and this would only make that worse.

I still dont understand whats so scary about perma stealth from D/P. If they perma stealthing, they either have no initiative or they’re using everything for stealth and thus lacking utility which usually puts u on top if u know what ur doing.

Again, there are many other alternatives than this…

I dont play mes but wouldnt they and engis be able to stealth better than us if this did happen?

VciouSidewinder.4029:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

VciouSidewinder.4029:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

Sorry to say but this is totally wrong. Staff is good in some ways and so is d/p. Staff is a better duelling weapon and d/p is better at +1ing and stealthing for a decap. D/p DOES NOT counter staff. Staff is only highly telegraphed and clunky when you dont know how to use it and if ur spamming the skills. Otherwise, I would say staff > D/P and requires more skill. The only better thing about D/p is probably the headshots with PI and access to stealth. I know thief isn’t the strongest but as a wvw and pvper, thief is fine. D/p is probably the most viable in PvP and if u nerf the stealth, you lose decaps and you would probably make thieves even less viable.

If you want to nerf ghost thieves or trapper thieves, then nerf those builds. Mayb reveal on condi, or nerf trap stealth. There are many options. This sounds a lot like ur looking for an excuse to weaken D/P and I think shadowstep is totally right. It doesn’t make much sense imo. They dont need to nerf D/P, it’s not super op. Other weapon sets are weak and they should bring those in line.

Anyways, I dont agree, just my opinion.

The fact that all I have to do to kill a Staff thief is press 3 and 1 tells me that D/P counters Staff pretty hard it doesn’t take any other skills or trying to even kite it the happens in high tier pvp as well as in WvW.

Nerfing stealth just Nerf the Decaps you don’t have to Stack stealth to be good at decapping the most you need is two Stacks and to use your mobility. I’m not wanting this Nerf in a vacuum I am asking for this change so they can revert some of the needless Nerfs/hardcounters they have introduced to Thief because people cry Stealth too Op!!

If they applied Reveal on Condi then D/P would be nerfed even harder than my suggestion because of Dagger AA, traps aren’t what keep ghost thief in perma stealth it is just D/P BP HS.

Honestly, if u can hit a thief with 3, then its a bad thief. 3 is so ez to avoid on any thief build that it sounds like ur talking about some really crappy players. I generally use staff/dp when duelling tbh but I probably stick to staff more than D/P. Staff isnt very viable im pvp though since u cant +1 as well since they see you coming and u cant decap as well either which brings me to my other point.

If your fighting a druid lets say on legacy. If ur playing on legend, he will guard home. What generally happens is u +1 mid and ur looking to decap far. The druid will be staff or bow spamming on the platform towards their home and and use their staff 3 to go back home when they see u running towards home. Only way would be to have enough stealth to make it or take the long way in which case he might have noticed u missing anyways.

This gets worse with revs and guards cuz then they can JI and phase traversal if ur not stealth. Those extra bits of stealth really make a difference here. On top of that, ur usually alrdy low on initiative from either stealth or bow 5 and this would only make that worse.

I still dont understand whats so scary about perma stealth from D/P. If they perma stealthing, they either have no initiative or they’re using everything for stealth and thus lacking utility which usually puts u on top if u know what ur doing.

Again, there are many other alternatives than this…

Whenever I have faced a Staff Thief no matter where all it really takes is AA and SS, very rarely do I actually have to work for the kills, they are too predicatable and the aftercast are real on that weapon which opens them up so much.

Permastealthing is not scary, especially in Pvp but I have noticed I don’t need To stack stealth ever in Pvp unless I am running an SA build for kittens and giggles. What is scary is that I see it going to cause issues due to all the QQ about it in WvW, since very bad players are dying to Ghost Thieves.

If they buff Thief without touching Stealth it will get a lot of backlash from the other professions, it’s happened whenever thieves did get a decent buff, if they can do a buff to other sets or traits without having to touch stealth good for them but stacking stealth will always be one of the reasons Thieves miss out on certain aspects of the game.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

I dont play mes but wouldnt they and engis be able to stealth better than us if this did happen?

No, they are subject to CDs if they are in stealth and tried to use another stealth skill it would have the ICD as well so say a Mesmer tried to spam Prestige and Decoy while in CS, they would only get one of the stealths not both, Engies would get less stealth from Stealth Gyro due to this as well. It’s only one sec on stealth application so unless you are trying to spam stealth stacking it won’t have any real affect in Combat

Dont take this the wrong way but I dont really think you know anything about staff. It was obvious from when u initially started to bash it. I didnt get staff hype initially either, I initially dropped it and restarted using it once I learned about its potential. If ur up for some duels after my exams, i can show u (although im not the greatest duelist). Its a defensive weapon. I know u will steal on me, I know you will 3 me, which makes it very ez to counter attack. Not with vault, very few people know how to use vault, but just the staff weapon in general counters the thieves that 3,4,1 on d/p.

Just out of curiosity, how far did u get in pvp? I noticed in lower tiers u dont even need to stealth but in higher tiers, u gotta do some awsome kiting and juking to get a proper decap because if their home guarder is competent, they will make it hell. I sometimes reroll to guard just to troll enemy thieves on their decaps.

Now I never had a problem with trapper thieves or ghost thieves although i’ve seen qq on the forums. From my experience, you do not want to balance a game on the bad players. You want to balance them on good players. Balancing on crapper players is what brought thieves here in the first place with all this power creep. Look at top tier players and no one complains about ghost thieves. Balance should be around good to top tier players, not players who installed the game last week.

And finally, they don’t know how to balance thieves. Nerfing us more wont teach them that. Your expecting too much from anet’s balance team. There is no promise here. All we know is it will hurt thieves only set that is viable in PvP and nothing else. Maybe the will buff thief, maybe they will buff d/p even more, who know, it’s anet. If it were up to me to choose whether or not my main class might get a buff, I wouldn’t take it because its too much of a gamble even though i really want more builds and weapons that work.

VciouSidewinder.4029:

Dont take this the wrong way but I dont really think you know anything about staff. It was obvious from when u initially started to bash it. I didnt get staff hype initially either, I initially dropped it and restarted using it once I learned about its potential. If ur up for some duels after my exams, i can show u (although im not the greatest duelist). Its a defensive weapon. I know u will steal on me, I know you will 3 me, which makes it very ez to counter attack. Not with vault, very few people know how to use vault, but just the staff weapon in general counters the thieves that 3,4,1 on d/p.

Just out of curiosity, how far did u get in pvp? I noticed in lower tiers u dont even need to stealth but in higher tiers, u gotta do some awsome kiting and juking to get a proper decap because if their home guarder is competent, they will make it hell. I sometimes reroll to guard just to troll enemy thieves on their decaps.

Now I never had a problem with trapper thieves or ghost thieves although i’ve seen qq on the forums. From my experience, you do not want to balance a game on the bad players. You want to balance them on good players. Balancing on crapper players is what brought thieves here in the first place with all this power creep. Look at top tier players and no one complains about ghost thieves. Balance should be around good to top tier players, not players who installed the game last week.

And finally, they don’t know how to balance thieves. Nerfing us more wont teach them that. Your expecting too much from anet’s balance team. There is no promise here. All we know is it will hurt thieves only set that is viable in PvP and nothing else. Maybe the will buff thief, maybe they will buff d/p even more, who know, it’s anet. If it were up to me to choose whether or not my main class might get a buff, I wouldn’t take it because its too much of a gamble even though i really want more builds and weapons that work.

I always reached the last Tier of Diamond each season (except S1 I didn’t play in the bunker Meta after the first few days) , I Also roam all the time in WvW again no issues there . I have played with Staff quite a bit but never liked the playstyle it was very clunky even after quiet a few weeks using it, even with out using Vault it is too predictable, the only thing it has of value is Staff 2 and Steal.

If you want we can duel I am always game for that just let me know. I am not saying I am the greatest player but I have never had an issue against many Staff Thief players normally what kills me is I make a mistake.

I have lost almost all hope in the balance team when it comes to this class as well as a few others, but sometimes I feel like if we can give them decent options they won’t make uncalled for or knee jerk reaction Nerfs.

What’s sad is I think this game will just keep implementing powercreep instead of keeping it in check. But hey hopefully they apply the power creep to underused Weapons like S/D I would love more than anything to see that more viable for the pvp wise in WvW it does ok but still al little lackluster

They just buffed the /D

What anet needs: A clue about their own game – as long as they lack that nothing will really change (for the better).
The near perfect balance we’ve had ~2 year ago was coincidence.

Jana.6831:

They just buffed the /D

This made me laugh so hard…..

Well harder than it should have.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jana.6831:

They just buffed the /D

This made me laugh so hard…..

Well harder than it should have.

It’s still a buff and I actually use dancing dagger now.
The problem still is that at least D/D is a pure melee set and can’t survive melee.
But that’s stuff we’ve went through for ages and anet still thinks that MOAR DAMAGE is the answer.
In the end: Nothing will change, neither in wvw nor for thief. So either live with it or leave the game – they won’t listen and actually they shouldn’t it’s them who should set the rules, not the players.

Jana.6831:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jana.6831:

They just buffed the /D

This made me laugh so hard…..

Well harder than it should have.

It’s still a buff and I actually use dancing dagger now.
The problem still is that at least D/D is a pure melee set and can’t survive melee.
But that’s stuff we’ve went through for ages and anet still thinks that MOAR DAMAGE is the answer.

Wasn’t talking about the buff, mind defaulted to gutter……

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

First off let’s see what classes D/P hard counters, Non Mm Reapers, Thieves other than D/D DB spammers, even your amazing Staff thief will die to D/p, Revs get eaten alive by it especially now, Staff is highly telegraphed and a very clunky weapon leaving the thief open to a lot of punishment on most skills. And staff doesn’t directly counter any build it only directly counters bad players.

Again I am not a D/D enthusiast not in the slightest.

Shadow Refuge was killed a while ago I also proposed changes to SR a few days ago to combat this. and I said game wide so every form of stealth not Just Thief Stealth

Ps Stealth stacking is useless and highly underused in Pvp.

Thief counters non MMO necro not D/P. Revs die to all thieves.

The ONLY reason you have to nerf D/P is because it counters over thief weapon sets……

WTF

So you want to nerf your own class only because you refuse to use a,specific weapon set

ROFLMAO

I cant even….

Azukas.1426:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Azukas.1426:

This again….lol

OK let’s debunk this again. D/P is not the best weapon set for thieves. That title belongs to staff. In fact I don’t think D/P directly counters ANY class in this in the entire game.

Now I’m assuming we got your typical D/D enthusiasts once again making the push to nerf D/P, but D/D is performing perfectly fine and needs no buffs period.

Now the rest of the people prolly play Sword….sorry but nuking D/P ain’t going on help ya. The devs needed to kill your favorite play style to make room for daredevil.

Also your supposed change would kill Shadow Refuse. An entire skill destroyed for no reason. I don’t even play this class but why am I the one identifying this?

Its time to embrace change and move along with the game.

p.s. stealth is hardly a problem in pvp from thieves.

First off let’s see what classes D/P hard counters, Non Mm Reapers, Thieves other than D/D DB spammers, even your amazing Staff thief will die to D/p, Revs get eaten alive by it especially now, Staff is highly telegraphed and a very clunky weapon leaving the thief open to a lot of punishment on most skills. And staff doesn’t directly counter any build it only directly counters bad players.

Again I am not a D/D enthusiast not in the slightest.

Shadow Refuge was killed a while ago I also proposed changes to SR a few days ago to combat this. and I said game wide so every form of stealth not Just Thief Stealth

Ps Stealth stacking is useless and highly underused in Pvp.

Thief counters non MMO necro not D/P. Revs die to all thieves.

The ONLY reason you have to nerf D/P is because it counters over thief weapon sets……

WTF

So you want to nerf your own class only because you refuse to use a,specific weapon set

ROFLMAO

I cant even….

Did I ever say what weaponset I use? No? Interesting….

Azukas is a professional troll and resistent to all explanations. Just saying.

I am not a pro or something (although I have got quite many hours on my back playing thief ), but to be honest I never had difficulties to counter d/p thief with my sword/pistol or even sword/dagger (note that this is true before and after HoT (even now)) thief of similar level with me (I have fought and won people with 2-3k hours on thief). That said, I understand and support some minor nerfs to the d/p set to reduce how hard it counters other classes like warriors or how confusing can it be to play against. For example, I would like to see shadow shot getting nerfed on its initiative consumption (maybe increase the init by one or two and to compensate maybe increase a bit its dmg or increase the duration of blind) so bad thieves stop spamming it and still managing to steal the win against some players who struggle against it. Especially, in situations where 2-3 people chase one poor guy the thief can just catch up with every fleeing target with just a steal, evade(usually dash) and shadow shot. I would also like to see some buffs to the poor cnd. Regarding stealth mechanic, I think Anet should just set a maximum of 6 secs (8s with SA) so it requires more effort to perma stealth while preventing the thief (or even mesmer with pu) to get his time and still closes the distance with a fleeing victim. To accept a more serious nerf on stealth I would like to see a lot of thinks fixed or changed, such as scorpion wire’s clunkiness or some improvements on long animations on AAs for sword or staff or increase the velocity of the AA of short bow. In general, the way I see it good thieves have survived throughout the nerfs but that makes no space for newcomers, since they are punished for trying the class in every mode. I feel so sad seeing people trying thief and getting obliterated in fractals every 10 secs or in wvw trying hard and getting rekt by everyone ,because you know how squishy we are (warriors hitting f1 on berskerk mode and killing randomly new thieves in less than a sec). Even in pvp, where tbh I dont have great experience in, new thieves do not know what their role is and the only thing they are trying to do is to brawl (because they think its PvP) and die from scrappers, dh or necros like nothing. This does not happen for other classes (maybe noob eles but still they have skills to keep them somewhat safe even if they play cannon glass builds). Anyway, I don’t say that every class should be easy nor that thief needs great defensive tools to help newbies, but they should at least stop nerfing the offensive tools (with ICD on stealth attacks, less stacks on basilisk venom etc). The only good thing we got after HoT was some increase in dmg on our AA for dagger and sword and I see people crying in mesmer forums because they got 6% and we got 30%+ etc and noone says that their role is different, the dmg they offer to the team is suberb and the utility is great. What did we get for pve content (I am talking mainly for bosses)? We got some extra dazes to break bars, but our blinds are useless anymore and our stealth is irrelevant since you can skip content in dungeon much more safely now by just running… If we get more group utility/support (which ofc benefits us in solo situations) or an increase in dmg potential to really be on top without spending thousands of hours on thief, then yes I am all in for stealth nerfs.

p.s: Sorry for potential mistakes, I was in rush.

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

The easier it is to track a thief, the easier it is to rotate doesn’t matter what kind of mobility you have when they know where you are or when you are coming. hence stealth stacking is a must in spvp. Or big compensations to make thief some god 1v1er/sustain in smaller fights.

If you feel its mostly in wvw or whatever then i hope for your sake anet splits the stealthing mechanics so the nerfs applies in wvw and not in spvp

bluri.2653:

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

That is our point. That’s why we “demand our own profession to be nerfed”. While thief suffered as a whole in June last year the only set that has been indirectly buffed was D/P. The current stealth cap is at 18s if I’m not mistaken (didn’t try it for a while) – and it shouldn’t be too hard to equip SR and/or smokescreen for the extra stealth that would be needed for pvp.

ETA: I’m actually in favour of nerfing the duration of pistol 5. Only real downside would be no safe stomps.

ETA²: My idea wouldn’t work as the thief would have enough initative left to stealth right afterwards.
Thinking some more about it.

bluri.2653:

Reducing the amount of stealth u can stack would hurt a lot in pvp, and that would require anet to buff thieves into the amount where they can take equal or 1v1 fights.

The easier it is to track a thief, the easier it is to rotate doesn’t matter what kind of mobility you have when they know where you are or when you are coming. hence stealth stacking is a must in spvp. Or big compensations to make thief some god 1v1er/sustain in smaller fights.

If you feel its mostly in wvw or whatever then i hope for your sake anet splits the stealthing mechanics so the nerfs applies in wvw and not in spvp

My request is in good faith that they would actually try to fix some of what they broke with Thief, do we have any reason to expect they would? No, hell they may just Nerf it even more, but when they relegate a class to doing +1/decap when any class can do that almost as easily with the amount of mobility and stealth that has been handed out to other classes, something has got to give.

Ever since HoT you haven’t seen Thief in any competititve sense in any of the Tournaments(there were a couple but those teams never went very far), yes Thief can do decent in Ranked the last few seasons but that’s easy enough in a gamemode where almost everyone was artificially boosted to tiers they shouldn’t have been in and with no organization.

Really the only thing that is being asked for is a relatively minor adjustment to stealth stacking on Black Powder. All of you acting like this would destroy D/P…really?

The point is functionally limiting stealth stacking to ideally three stacks assuming you are just using weapon skills.

On reflection, an ICD would break the blast finisher of Blinding Powder (because the blast combo with black powder could not apply both the finisher stealth and the stealth from the utility itself).

The reasons I would support some change, in general, is that I feel more and more classes are getting reveal skills in response to a few builds that stack stealth for long durations. We need to be cognizant that in order to avoid buffs to other classes or reverse those reveal buffs we need to give up some of our stealth stacking potential.

Anet has applied a “buff damage” model to compensate us for losing some protection that stealth affords us. Unfortunately, simply buffing damage is a poor exchange for survivability in a meta where many classes have the ability to block or invuln bursts of damage. Stealth effects may eventually need a buff if more and more reveal gets added to the game. To avoid this reveal-buff damage-buff stealth cycle of powercreep we have to suggest an alternative mode of adjustment. Lowering stealth access only enough to prevent permanent stealth is not a huge change, but it might be enough to stave off a round of buffs for other classes, followed by buffs to us to “keep up.”

thaniretouni.4762:

Alright I picked out a couple of things:

I understand and support some minor nerfs to the d/p set to reduce how hard it counters other classes like warriors or how confusing can it be to play against.

D/P is not confusing, I think you’re revealing why you need more experience to be offering an educated opinion. Most stealth during a duel (D/P 5+2) will last 3s, so you know when the Backstab is coming. Shadow Shot is highly telegraphed. Heartseeker, when it’s used offensively, is also telegraphed. Headshot and Steal are probably the only unpredictable parts of the build. As for D/P hard countering, or even countering Warr at all, idk about that. I’d be happy to duel you on my Warr gimmick build, I beat End Orphan yesterday in a 1v1 with the same build. Dueling thieves is difficult but they have a very limited number of skills, especially considering that they’ll rarely switch weapon sets, unlike every other profession with weapon swap. So you should be able to predict what they’re gonna do, the issue is whether your reflexes are fast enough.

To accept a more serious nerf on stealth I would like to see a lot of thinks fixed or changed, such as scorpion wire’s clunkiness or some improvements on long animations on AAs for sword or staff or increase the velocity of the AA of short bow.

These need to happen anyways, aside from SB velocity buff. Idk why you tie buffing Scorpion Wire to nerfing Stealth, Scorpion Wire is not useful rn and should be buffed regardless. And not that I wouldn’t like a SB buff, but SB is useful without it. People that can’t use it offensively are either fatfingering or don’t have good enough timing.

Even in pvp, where tbh I dont have great experience in, new thieves do not know what their role is and the only thing they are trying to do is to brawl (because they think its PvP) and die from scrappers, dh or necros like nothing

This is what should happen. I don’t mean that from a morality standpoint, just that if there’s no skill floor then why will people keep coming back to the game? New players should die easily, if they don’t that means the game is laughably uncomplicated and easy. Rather, I think that Anet should make an incentives-based mentoring system for new players. I do it for free whenever I come across a thief that clearly needs help, teaching combos and directing them to Sindrener vids, but this would be more commonplace if people had an incentive to help others. I strongly resist making the class easier for noobs, they need to L2P, and they should get help in doing so.

What did we get for pve content (I am talking mainly for bosses)? We got some extra dazes to break bars, but our blinds are useless anymore and our stealth is irrelevant

Completely agree. Vault is useful for PvE mobs, but we didn’t get much. Thieves are too squishy to fight champs, but that’s where the rewards are at. Anet is not fair to thieves when it comes to PvE.