Fixing the forum bug.
Dug up from earlier:
The fault is at the design of the weapon skills leaving it without cooldown. A simple cooldown on Backstab (and all other Stealth attacks) would have solved the stealth problem without punishing the stealth mechanic
Seems like the developers agree with you for putting an ICD on the attacks. Granted, it seems most players don’t. They’re never removing Revealed, though. Not happening. If they do, so many people would leave in droves it’d be pretty bad, honestly.
That comment is quoted out of context. The idea behind that suggestion was in conjunction of removing the Revealed debuff or instead of adding the Revealed debuff. The context where that comment came from was — instead of adding Revealed debuff, they could have just added the ICD.
Adding the Revealed debuff is a lazy fix. Adding the ICD without removing Revealed debuff is just dumb.
I just loled on this post, thief got nerfed so much that theives asking for nerfs now, just wow….
Its like a fetish oh god nerf me pls, im so hard right now…………
I just loled on this post, thief got nerfed so much that theives asking for nerfs now, just wow….
Its like a fetish oh god nerf me pls, im so hard right now…………
The issue is that history has shown that the “fixes” to a given class in order to address what is perceived as a problem are more often then not “fixes” that wreak havoc on legitimate builds that are NOT part of that problem.
Most of this discussion arises due to the Ghost thief. Now i personally do not think it as big an issue as being claimed by others but am under no illusions as to what the reaction of ANET might be in a future patch. Identifying what has lead to the Ghost thief and how it works is to ensure some of the suggested fixes (such as adding damage to traps so they become unusable) are not implemented instead.
if i put a kickstarter fund together to go protest about changes to thief…
Who would join?
#justwantdeveloperinput
if i put a kickstarter fund together to go protest about changes to thief…
Who would join?#justwantdeveloperinput
I think only thing we could do is organize mass travel to Gamescon and boycott Anet there (if they do participate) xD because it would go in press and bad publicity like this is not wanted~
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
Bahaha apparently you don’t know how to read i main a Thief I know how to fight thieves thieves are very easy to kill……. bahahahha
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
You’re making it sound like D/P is difficult to use. It’s the easiest weapon set to use, compare to other Thief’s weapons set. It’s very effective even in the hands of noobs, no L2P required.
You want to play condition damage effectively, use D/P.
You want to use trapper rune effectively, use D/P.
Power base effectively, use D/P.
Venom condition? D/P.
Troll trapper rune? D/P.
D/P, D/P, D/P
You just can’t go wrong with it.
The real question is, is there an ineffective way to play D/P?
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
You’re making it sound like D/P is difficult to use. It’s the easiest weapon set to use, compare to other Thief’s weapons set. It’s very effective even in the hands of noobs, no L2P required.
You want to play condition damage effectively, use D/P.
You want to use trapper rune effectively, use D/P.
Power base effectively, use D/P.
Venom condition? D/P.
Troll trapper rune? D/P.
D/P, D/P, D/P
You just can’t go wrong with it.The real question is, is there an ineffective way to play D/P?
There is big difference between good dp and noob dp…. simply because dp has high skill ceiling. Jump in as dp – yeah np; be actually effective as dp, at least in high tier pvp, is different story.
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
You’re making it sound like D/P is difficult to use. It’s the easiest weapon set to use, compare to other Thief’s weapons set. It’s very effective even in the hands of noobs, no L2P required.
You want to play condition damage effectively, use D/P.
You want to use trapper rune effectively, use D/P.
Power base effectively, use D/P.
Venom condition? D/P.
Troll trapper rune? D/P.
D/P, D/P, D/P
You just can’t go wrong with it.The real question is, is there an ineffective way to play D/P?
The easiest to use are P/P, S/P, and P/D.
Out of the sets you aLloyd are talking about here D/D is by far the easiest of the bunch.
As condi, yes.
Power, no way. Easiest APM, maybe (and even still I’d pin this to P/P, personally), but that means literally nothing, and it’s only that way because the only skills that at one point weren’t total garbage were CnD and backstab. The rest- situational fluff.
Easiest set to use in general probably goes to P/P. It has an objectively easy kit to use and in almost every respect is more rewarding to play than D/D. D/P isn’t far behind imho, though. Sure it has a high skill ceiling, but it also absolutely has a high skill floor (especially with Daredevil), too. In most instances, when I swap to D/P, difficult encounters are trivialized, and I don’t even swap traits to make my build have any amount of cohesion, and still run core thief. The skill ceiling on most other kits is just nonexistant because the kits themselves are so limited in how they can perform to a point where player skill rarely matters past a certain point, because they just simply won’t be effective. That’s D/D power’s case currently; you can be an absolutely amazing thief but it’ll genuinely stop mattering past a certain point because you will not have the tools to deal with other builds as opposed to D/P, Staff, and in some respects, even S/x kits.
As condi, yes.
Power, no way. Easiest APM, maybe (and even still I’d pin this to P/P, personally), but that means literally nothing, and it’s only that way because the only skills that at one point weren’t total garbage were CnD and backstab. The rest- situational fluff.
Easiest set to use in general probably goes to P/P. It has an objectively easy kit to use and in almost every respect is more rewarding to play than D/D. D/P isn’t far behind imho, though. Sure it has a high skill ceiling, but it also absolutely has a high skill floor (especially with Daredevil), too. In most instances, when I swap to D/P, difficult encounters are trivialized, and I don’t even swap traits to make my build have any amount of cohesion, and still run core thief. The skill ceiling on most other kits is just nonexistant because the kits themselves are so limited in how they can perform to a point where player skill rarely matters past a certain point, because they just simply won’t be effective. That’s D/D power’s case currently; you can be an absolutely amazing thief but it’ll genuinely stop mattering past a certain point because you will not have the tools to deal with other builds as opposed to D/P, Staff, and in some respects, even S/x kits.
Just because d/p has tools for certain situation it doesn’t mean it is easy set to play. Universal? Yes. Easy? Not really. You have to manage ini so you can use those tools on first place, the moment you use one of the tools you often give up others simply due to ini costs, you have to time your spells as well, you also have to decide which one will you use, d/p it is not just straight forward damage dealer like d/d for example.
The problem with d/d (power that is) is that is very very one dimensional (even more one dimensional than warrior GS) and it just doesn’t fit in thematic of HoT anymore which introduced myriad of passives/blocks/aoe etc. The set needs more utility however seeing as war GS didn’t get any updates either i suspect d/d will remain pure power murder them all or die set (or condi evade monkey).
Not sure how P/D is easy given that stealth access requires CnD to operate effectively.
I don’t give much credence to “skill” comparisons of weapon sets.
Any weapon set can be equally ineffective or effective depending on the match-up. A D/P new player will do ok against a new player. Against a more experienced player they will get destroyed. D/P has a high “skill ceiling” only in the sense that knowing your weapon set will produce better outcomes and let you fight against more experienced players.
P/P for example is considered a low skill set because of Unload. This doesn’t consider the prevalence of reflects that many classes can carry. Taken by itself a ranged damage skill can seem lower skill, to be sure, but actual fights will be harder if the opponent knows what they are doing. P/P is therefore easy to use against unprepared opponents and hard to use well against tougher opponents.
And you have to manage initiative with all thief builds. Miss a few critical abilities and you suffer for it.
Yet another “plz nerf stealth cuz reasons” topic from people getting killed over and over in WvW but refuse to learn game mechanics or at least try thief for a while to be on the other side of the coin, really, big L2P to you all complaining…
Edit: The same thing happened during the short S/D meta (and look what happened), where instead of stealth, ppl complained about infinite evades… srlsy, gitgud…
(edited by Pedroso.4603)
As condi, yes.
Power, no way. Easiest APM, maybe (and even still I’d pin this to P/P, personally), but that means literally nothing, and it’s only that way because the only skills that at one point weren’t total garbage were CnD and backstab. The rest- situational fluff.
Easiest set to use in general probably goes to P/P. It has an objectively easy kit to use and in almost every respect is more rewarding to play than D/D. D/P isn’t far behind imho, though. Sure it has a high skill ceiling, but it also absolutely has a high skill floor (especially with Daredevil), too. In most instances, when I swap to D/P, difficult encounters are trivialized, and I don’t even swap traits to make my build have any amount of cohesion, and still run core thief. The skill ceiling on most other kits is just nonexistant because the kits themselves are so limited in how they can perform to a point where player skill rarely matters past a certain point, because they just simply won’t be effective. That’s D/D power’s case currently; you can be an absolutely amazing thief but it’ll genuinely stop mattering past a certain point because you will not have the tools to deal with other builds as opposed to D/P, Staff, and in some respects, even S/x kits.
You are making the mistake of conflating a given weaponsets integral skills and their cost/effectiveness with skill itself.
Just as example. We have Signet of Shadows and Signet of agility. Just because a person uses signet of agility over shadows, it does not follow it “lower skill”. All it means is signet of shadows is not as good a signet.
In the Thief profession the single largest skill is managing ones ini and knowing what to do when. This applies across all weaponsets. With P/P as example one is not going to do well if they rely on unload. Unload to build might, headshot to interrupt critical enemy skills , black power with Dodging (if traited) for stealth AAs (which can hit now for close to unload damage)and the willingess to switch weaponsets once might built to get off yet larger attacks or avoid those reflects is much more effective.
With d/d , the HS cripple or DB are not particularly hard to pull off. The CND is and this should be reflected in a better benefit or lower cost but this does not equate to more skill. It just means the weaponset has not kept up with other sets , much like signet of shadows has not kept up with other signets.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Why D/P is the easiest? It’s simply because it has access to stealth and has one of the lowest total initiative cost. I can easily do combination attacks in D/P that I can never do in other sets due to high initiative cost. D/P is very efficient and effective on everything that a Thief needs to do. Nothing can compare to it.
At the very basic form — no armor, no traits, no other skills — D/P is noob friendly. At the highest skill level, D/P is still the easiest to use since other weapon sets are just clunky or buggy and unreliable. I find it surprising that someone will argue that P/P is easier to use — lol, it’s not. If one will think that pressing #3 is easy, just wait when you ran out of initiatives, let’s see if the set is still easy then. No one can even pull a decent skill combination using P/P since it’s neither easy nor effective. That weapon set has a lot of issues need to be addressed before it can qualify to be easy to use.
EDIT: typos
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
(Snipped for length)
And that’s kind of what I was getting at; D/D’s kit is simple and lacks effectiveness, but to play power D/D well simply takes so much more skill than any other set to get comparable performance. The only argument one can make is that because there are less useful skills at any given time, it’s easier. but that logic isn’t sound. Period. That same exact logic would strictly demand that D/D celestial ele from S1/S2 was the hardest profession to play in the game, or that DH and chronomancers are just as difficult these days because they require good APM.
We all know that’s totally bogus. Power chrono is more difficult than condi chrono, yet they also have less “ability use” with high-precedent skills to manage in most cases. Like I said, D/P as with most meta builds for most professions has a low skill floor, but because it’s a strong set, it has the highest skill ceiling because it’s actually able to perform at those highest levels of play, while others aren’t.
Nowhere will a D/D player argue that their button pressing requires more effort than another build. Quite frankly, no thief in general should be saying this, as we we have the fewest things to keep track of in terms of our own profession mechanics; even the Berserker has surpassed the thief in ability management requirements, and the Daredevil is just thief on roids/easy mode compared to core. As far as warrior GS goes, it’s still a very strong weapon, and one that is still used in competitive play. It’s a well-rounded kit with substantially better skills than what even D/D offers for power builds.
HS is a null argument since it’s also on D/P, and D/P has more benefit to using it than D/D.
DB doesn’t get a power D/D player anywhere. A few evades here and there to spam if you’re under heavy fire and immobilized or something, but otherwise, it’s pretty much just not worth using. If you need to be on the defensive, it’s better to swap to an alternate set and ride out the reset or just try and right-flank CnD stealth dodge because it’ll typically have a higher impact for baiting out durations per unit of tim over using DB. The only thing DB is good for is condi builds. Otherwise it’s straight horrible on power, and imho, worse than Dancing Dagger by a large margin.
I also do not think D/P is difficult – at least I do not think it is in the sense that I can take an OH pistol against literally anything and do objectively better than an OH dagger, despite having put thousands of hours into playing solely D/D, and maybe a few hundred into OH pistol. It’s easier on initiative overall for what you get out of the skills, and quite frankly things like timing interrupts and managing cooldowns/skills are a fundamental part of skilled play in general that’s required on every profession, so it’s not like this skill doesn’t translate between either set. I play interruption on S/D and on my reaper (why I run GS) with those crazy long casts and 30s+ cooldowns; acting like “timing” with Headshot only costing four initiative with next to no cast is cakewalk.
SoS has kept up with other signets. SoS hasn’t kept up with game-wide mobility power creep. A long time ago, Thief had the hands-down best mobility and warrior with Sword/WH + GS back when movespeed affected gap closers wasn’t far off. At launch, it was the only permanent 25%+ movespeed effect in the entire game – no traveler runes, no other bonus move speed effects anywhere. The best swiftness came from Guard’s staff or blasting Static fields. 1200 range instant-cast AoE blind was just a little extra to try and let people running it have some sort of trick up their sleeve if they got in trouble. And imho, the movespeed and blind are still extremely good, which is why I choose to run it over SoA on my core thief signet build. The cooldown for it and the movespeed aspect of it are actually the weak parts when considering the fact that the the rest of the game is nullifying the point of it. Yea, on Daredevil it’s worse than SoA for a plethora of reasons, but given swiftness there’s no reason to run SoS at all, which was the whole point.
Further, I will say to make use of SoS properly, it takes more skill than using SoA properly. It has common use cases which can be just as effective as SoA on core thief. It’s just not as easy as it is to drop a refill on endurance and get much better negation while not needing to evaluate the costs of losing the movespeed in the period of time necessary while making the decision to negate an incoming attack.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Why D/P is the easiest? It’s simply because it has access to stealth and has one of the lowest total initiative cost. I can easily do combination attacks in D/P that I can never do in other sets due to high initiative cost. D/P is very efficient and effective on everything that a Thief needs to do. Nothing can compare to it.
At the very basic form — no armor, no traits, no other skills — D/P is noob friendly. At the highest skill level, D/P is still the easiest to use since other weapon sets are just clunky or buggy and unreliable. I find it surprising that someone will argue that P/P is easier to use — lol, it’s not. If one will think that pressing #3 is easy, just wait when you ran out of initiatives, let’s see if the set is still easy then. No one can even pull a decent skill combination using P/P since it’s neither easy nor effective. That weapon set has a lot of issues need to be addressed before it can qualify to be easy to use.
EDIT: typos
So much stroking of own ego. D/D also has access to stealth, actually at lower ini costs than d/p.
When i started to play this game, i used d/d because it was most straight forward set and easiest set to learn. You don’t need to worry about timing interrupts or decide whether you should spend ini on stealth, interrupts or gap closers. You don’t need to save teammates (interrupt stomps, peel off teammates etc.) because the set is stupidly selfish. The weaponsets are simply completely different. One is straight forward one dimensional damage dealer (aka warrior GS) other is all about utility.
Being effective as d/d is hard, i agree, but so is as d/p if you face non-braindead enemies.
If you actually think d/p is that easy, you are welcome to play core dp in legend – let’s see how far you get with it. Please record it so we can all see how easy dp is.
~snip~
If you actually think d/p is that easy, you are welcome to play core dp in legend – let’s see how far you get with it. Please record it so we can all see how easy dp is.
What a useless waste of response. If you think that D/D is easier than D/P, then where is your recorded game play in Legend using that weapon set if that is your way of proving something to be easy or difficult?
I know D/P is easy because I’ve used it in many different builds. Other weapon set just don’t work with certain builds, but D/P fits right in.
As condi, yes.
Power, no way. Easiest APM, maybe (and even still I’d pin this to P/P, personally), but that means literally nothing, and it’s only that way because the only skills that at one point weren’t total garbage were CnD and backstab. The rest- situational fluff.
Easiest set to use in general probably goes to P/P. It has an objectively easy kit to use and in almost every respect is more rewarding to play than D/D. D/P isn’t far behind imho, though. Sure it has a high skill ceiling, but it also absolutely has a high skill floor (especially with Daredevil), too. In most instances, when I swap to D/P, difficult encounters are trivialized, and I don’t even swap traits to make my build have any amount of cohesion, and still run core thief. The skill ceiling on most other kits is just nonexistant because the kits themselves are so limited in how they can perform to a point where player skill rarely matters past a certain point, because they just simply won’t be effective. That’s D/D power’s case currently; you can be an absolutely amazing thief but it’ll genuinely stop mattering past a certain point because you will not have the tools to deal with other builds as opposed to D/P, Staff, and in some respects, even S/x kits.
How many times do I have to tell you.
Acro
Trickery
DD
Use the lotus dodge or dash depending on what you are doing. Learn to abuse 3 and lotus. You will destroy D/P thieves using that as a power set up. You can easily hit 1k damage per dodge before the condo damage is taken into account. You mix in a nice Steal CnD BS for a fast burst. You’ll also be immune to the blinds from D/P.
You’re welcome
You mix in a nice Steal CnD BS for a fast burst.
With Lotus Dodge, I don’t go with BS after Steal-CnD, instead I go with DB capitalizing on the damage boost plus the vulnerability stacks.
D/D power with lotus not condi
It is actually a very very deadly set up using both power and condi
Lol.
I’m sorry but if D/P loses to that they’re just straight terrible.
Lol.
I’m sorry but if D/P loses to that they’re just straight terrible.
well to be blunt there ARE a lot of terrible d/p players. In fact while likely true that d/p players are the majority of thieves in any case , my own impression is that even with that larger population in mind I meet more bad d/p players than any other type of thief. (and I hardly consider myself as top tier, I just play a lot)
This not to say there are not good ones or very good ones.
One of the reasons i think there so much QQ by thieves about condition builds is so many of these use that meta build where the only condition cleanse is shadowstep which is very weak as far as cleanses go and if they DO trait EA in addition , it rather easy just to sit back and watch them try to evade and cleanse.
The good ones avoid getting conditions applied and the bad ones die to them because they can not cleanse.
Lol.
I’m sorry but if D/P loses to that they’re just straight terrible.
Lotus hits players in stealth. So even if they are stealthed which this entire thread is about your dodge will hit them for 1k damage and tell you where they are.
Since HoT thief has been not about stealth but about evades and not getting hit. D/D trumps the d/p advantage of blinds b/c DB and Lotus are multi hit moves that remove blindness but still hit the target for damage. You are also free to take the remove condi on evade which d/p cannot. So between multi hit moves and removing condis on evade you are pretty much blind immune. You can literally win the fight with just dodge and Death Blossom, but you also have the luxury of Steal CnD BS for a quick 10,000 burst damage to really seal the deal.
The problem with you is you want to play Core thief signet full YOLO build and have that completely viable. You are the most selfish person on this sub-forum, and you are literally stopping all proper conversation on how to successfully get this class to where it needs to be with your selfish bias. Please do the rest of the players who call this class their main a favor, and stop sabotaging this forum with your selfish bias.
Thank you
Lol, 1k’s every few seconds. CV and even Withdraw with mug and DF will out-heal that. I’m sorry but if players aren’t running at least 15k health on a thief these days such that 1k’s (which given DF proccing at an equal rate become roughly 400’s) become substantial, they’re doing something wrong entirely.
The problem with landing CnD against another Daredevil, particularly D/P, isn’t just the blinds. You clearly do not play much OH dagger, particularly D/D power, to recognize this. And there is no reason at all why the D/P player should be taking both a CnD and backstab. Period. Again, these are symptoms of just bad/slow play in general. If you win with DB, especially when running Lotus, the enemy is bad. There’s next to no reason why the D/D player should ever be allowed to even get that close for a sustained fight or have the tracking to get repeated casts to hit entirely if the opponent runs Bound. Your entire argument seems to be based on the assumption that the enemy thief just mashes Shadow Shot as quickly as he possibly can and does nothing else – no dodging, remote timing, any sort of initiative management whatsoever, no reflexive or active playmaking decisions running through his head.. nothing. This is a bad thief no matter how you spin it and no matter how much I argue Shadow Shot’s damage for its initiative cost is overtuned.
I’m going to be blunt and say every D/D power main I knew rerolled with the ICD to stealth attacks, and there were very few to begin with. Not just signet players – I’m the only one I know left playing(I guess having played, since I’m on reaper now?) that build. The weapon set is objectively bad at the moment, and pretending like Lotus is going to do anything is simply untrue except when against bad players. What you’re saying is genuinely not an answer, and to retort by calling me selfish is just silly when you’re providing what is a nonsensical argument that begs the question of whether or not you actually even play the kit.
And knowing where a Daredevil may be in stealth when playing D/D with the stealth attack ICD doesn’t really do much considering the mobility gains on Dash which will cure the cripple, anyways. I consider myself kitten ed good at predicting stealthed targets, but no self-respecting player running Dash is going to let someone with Lotus keep up, especially if it landed the CnD just prior. The D/D player is back to playing then on the defensive with DB, which if the enemy is half-competent will either bait initiative by forcing random dodges or simply just use Headshot.
D/P has hard-countered D/D since release. No build is going to change that. The only thing that should let a D/D player win is a massive out-play and mistakes by the D/P player. In which case, your build suggestion is meaningless, because if the D/P guy gets out-played, he’d have lost when up against… you guessed it, D/P.
Pretty much what your entire post comes down to is suggesting that P/P hard-counters D/P and is an easy fight. Every argument you used can be applied to P/P with objectively more success (multi-hits, high damage, running EA), and it doesn’t “need” to run Lotus and can thus instantly be better off. We all know this matchup still favors D/P.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
I know I’ve made quite a few 3-spammers upset in the past by asking to nerf SS and by claiming Daredevil is the ultimate thief buff that makes it extremely easy to play at the competency of core relative to other professions, but at the end of the day, what I play is irrelevant when I’m not even asking for buffs to my specific build. What I find even funnier is that by simply disagreeing with you with what kit requires more skill to play, you’re personally attacking me for bias towards… signets. Do realize when I play D/P I also run signets. And there’s plenty of utility in the kit itself to do so. Playing without utilities becomes much easier when the weapon kit provides half of what you’d otherwise run for utility skills on a “good” D/D build.
The requests for nerfs to D/P to buff the rest of the thief have been said for years, and most prominent thieves follow the mentality that they genuinely do not care what happens so long as the profession ends up in a roughly identical position as currently, or will continue to play it as they feel otherwise. Quite frankly, four years of not touching D/P has still led the profession to be extremely gimmicky and in many cases ineffective in general.
Honestly, the few people I’ve seen carrying on about protecting D/P as though the fate of the world hinges on it are typically terrible players that get carried by its low skill floor and fairly low positional and strategic requirements to play semi-effectively. The best of the best require D/P because their decisions (such as Sindrender’s) require that cohesiveness of its diversity and overall strength in its kit to succeed with. Real talk, you don’t need half the skills on D/P to do generally (for the average player) “well” with it in most cases outside of near-professional play, but almost all of them are good options at any given time if you have half a second of patience and understand how to time skill use. But I’ve already discussed why skill use timing is a universally-important ability, and why D/D doesn’t actually really get to benefit that much from it.
I have a genuine interest in making the thief fun to play as and against when it comes to its vulnerabilities. Fact is, permanent stealth and being unhittable are not “fun” mechanics, which is why people complain. It’s not me saying stealth is OP and evades are OP, but the design is terrible and the concept of the Daredevil is flawed and a bad one. I’m passed the point of honestly caring what happens to D/D in upcoming notes. If they make power usable, great, if not, I’m still playing reaper, mostly. I stick around mostly from boredom and the discussion. Personal insults, though? Ridiculous. D/D is a dead kit for power except for giggles and diving blobs who don’t expect it. To do remotely well, you need to punish your opponent on all levels to get past its weaknesses. If you do that, you’ve already won playing another kit or profession in most cases.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
~snip~
If you actually think d/p is that easy, you are welcome to play core dp in legend – let’s see how far you get with it. Please record it so we can all see how easy dp is.What a useless waste of response. If you think that D/D is easier than D/P, then where is your recorded game play in Legend using that weapon set if that is your way of proving something to be easy or difficult?
I know D/P is easy because I’ve used it in many different builds. Other weapon set just don’t work with certain builds, but D/P fits right in.
What a useless waste of response.
I haven’t said d/d is easy (power that is; condi one is different story). It is simply easier to start with as a new player because it is very one dimensional (aka do dmg only). Just because d/p can fit in different builds, doesn’t make it easy. It makes it universal. Being effective on d/p is everything but easy.
What does d/d teach you as anew player? How to land backstab. Oh yeah, when to use HS.
What does d/p teach you as new player? How to land backstab, when to use HS, what to interrupt and when, how to use combos, how not to get interrupted while doing that combo, when to use gap closers and which, fact that blind goes through block etc.
The sets have different dimensions, simple as it is. Saying one is easier than other is stupid. D/D suffers so to say from lack of utility, d/p suffers from management of that very utility.
@Deceiver: it is 2016, check forums, people cry about thieves evades and dodges nowadays not stealth….. and as far as stealth spam goes we might as well mention how our d/d brothers were stealthing off everything hitable including walls and critters for years, i think they contributed plenty to the mass QQ (at least i have seen way too many threads complaining how thief perma stealth off walls in wvw).
(edited by Shadowstep.6049)
And I don’t think anyone disagrees with the fact that D/D is a conceptually simpler kit when it comes to using the skills themselves. I said that exact thing above all the way in my first response. That said, to be effective with D/D outside of PvE, even something button-wise simple as F1 -> 5 -> 1 is so much more difficult than 5 -> 2 -> 1 -> F1 when the reliability and risk of the former is so much worse and higher, respectively. The fact of the matter is that a new player who doesn’t understand the game isn’t and shouldn’t be the sole basis for balancing a kit, and ease-of-skill-use in the case of D/D is based solely on the fact that OH dagger’s performance is so poor that its “other” skills typically aren’t worth using in most cases. D/D is far from being all about 5 -> 1 -> 2. The more practice you put into the kit to make it work, the more you realize this. Because I swap weapons constantly in and out of combat on my build, heat-mapping D/D performance isn’t really possible for accurate results, but I’d wager my skill distribution is relatively even across skills when I play D/D, likely favoring Dancing Dagger and Death Blossom, with heartseeker definitely in the least-used spot.
Against a DH, for example, I need to engage with BV’ed Dancing Dagger to proc passive aegis and FoF, have mug pop the FoF Aegis for the CnD to land, and then in the next half second period either need to evade out of traps, use another Dancing Dagger to negate another Aegis if they use Wings through FoF if they’re quick, DB through trap entrances if I see them get deployed, followed by a disengage and re-position at the trailing end of stealth to Dancing Dagger from behind to negate SoC’s aegis while not staying in traps, then dodge and DB into proximity trying to bait and negate spear, and then finally try to get the CnD and repeat the aegis-shredding (depending on utilities and traits) before committing to the backstab or baiting other potential Aegis sources while avoiding the longbow follow-through, to then ultimately crippling them using Dancing Dagger or if you’re in range, HS, since you need a movespeed advantage to finally land CnD and backstab.
Over the entire course of the fight, one or at most two HS casts, several Dancing Dagger casts, several DB casts, two CnD’s, one backstab. The whole kit was used and needed to be used well. Any misplay in that fight is a dead thief. If a D/D player just tried to 5 -> 1 -> 2 his way to victory, of course he’d lose. And I think that’s what so many inexperienced and novice D/D players do not understand: the kit is more than three skills. The problem is the other two are very difficult and under-rewarding to use, and HS and CnD are both not very good in the context of what D/D needs and under-perform, respectively, since the damage and overall success of the kit is coupled so massively to Backstab.
That of course is only one of the two branches of possibilities I even mentioned against a fairly passive DH. We won’t even talk about the aggressive-DH matchup which involves way more difficult evasion timing and initiative management since CnD can still not be landed.
Again, the argument about skill complexity being treated as what defines good play just circles back to the argument on how the old D/D celestial ele in its complex rotations would then be similarly-arguable as the most difficult profession to play in the game. There’s so much more to player skill than pressing the right button at the right time. When you don’t have the “right button” to press, it warrants a deeper understanding of your kit and your enemy before such judgments can be made. Problems start arising when you reach top-tier play, however, when having that “right button” is essential because timing is so much more difficult to nail down and the workarounds just prove to be ineffective half the time. That’s why D/D ele was overpowered: it always had the right button at the right time to press, and not much thought was necessary in regards to what the opponent was doing to make it work.
Like I said, though, landing interrupts/skill timing is a basic part of the game/thief. Before PI and the buffs to DB, Headshot was used as an interrupt to an incoming skill just as how DB had to be used for an evade to an incoming skill while recognizing the penalties of the precast and aftercast at the time. Both had their shining moments and associated risks/costs (initiative use while not dealing damage as the main one).
And never once did I vouch for using CnD on walls/objects/etc. to gain permanent stealth as being good design. I still think it’s stupid, and the mentality of “you can’t kill me” via stealth and evades is why for years I argued for nerfs to the previously-broken SA and vouched for the changes made to Flanking/Larcenous Strikes while more recently hating on Daredevil. The QQ isn’t warranted necessarily out of balance (depending on format, though), but rather, general frustration with those mechanics. Stealthing off structures wasn’t making the thief OP. It was causing permanent contesting of keeps with WP’s that players couldn’t do much to shut down which is just generally annoying. The same is said about PI having no ICD, Daredevil having mobility-effect negation and a leap field on a no-cooldown smoke field with plenty of endurance regen. These aren’t strictly overpowered. But they’re dumb and not fun to play against. I speak solely from a game design perspective to make the game and profession more enjoyable, not solely what I think would make the profession a competitive killer.
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
You’re making it sound like D/P is difficult to use. It’s the easiest weapon set to use, compare to other Thief’s weapons set. It’s very effective even in the hands of noobs, no L2P required.
You want to play condition damage effectively, use D/P.
You want to use trapper rune effectively, use D/P.
Power base effectively, use D/P.
Venom condition? D/P.
Troll trapper rune? D/P.
D/P, D/P, D/P
You just can’t go wrong with it.The real question is, is there an ineffective way to play D/P?
That’s the whole point…I was making fun of you. It’s an easy set and the only set that is promoted by ANet (cause the balance team is clueless), yet you seem to have trouble playing it judging by your cry for a removal or nerfing of the revealed debuff.
Lol, 1k’s every few seconds. CV and even Withdraw with mug and DF will out-heal that. I’m sorry but if players aren’t running at least 15k health on a thief these days such that 1k’s (which given DF proccing at an equal rate become roughly 400’s) become substantial, they’re doing something wrong entirely.
The problem with landing CnD against another Daredevil, particularly D/P, isn’t just the blinds. You clearly do not play much OH dagger, particularly D/D power, to recognize this. And there is no reason at all why the D/P player should be taking both a CnD and backstab. Period. Again, these are symptoms of just bad/slow play in general. If you win with DB, especially when running Lotus, the enemy is bad. There’s next to no reason why the D/D player should ever be allowed to even get that close for a sustained fight or have the tracking to get repeated casts to hit entirely if the opponent runs Bound. Your entire argument seems to be based on the assumption that the enemy thief just mashes Shadow Shot as quickly as he possibly can and does nothing else – no dodging, remote timing, any sort of initiative management whatsoever, no reflexive or active playmaking decisions running through his head.. nothing. This is a bad thief no matter how you spin it and no matter how much I argue Shadow Shot’s damage for its initiative cost is overtuned.
I’m going to be blunt and say every D/D power main I knew rerolled with the ICD to stealth attacks, and there were very few to begin with. Not just signet players – I’m the only one I know left playing(I guess having played, since I’m on reaper now?) that build. The weapon set is objectively bad at the moment, and pretending like Lotus is going to do anything is simply untrue except when against bad players. What you’re saying is genuinely not an answer, and to retort by calling me selfish is just silly when you’re providing what is a nonsensical argument that begs the question of whether or not you actually even play the kit.
And knowing where a Daredevil may be in stealth when playing D/D with the stealth attack ICD doesn’t really do much considering the mobility gains on Dash which will cure the cripple, anyways. I consider myself kitten ed good at predicting stealthed targets, but no self-respecting player running Dash is going to let someone with Lotus keep up, especially if it landed the CnD just prior. The D/D player is back to playing then on the defensive with DB, which if the enemy is half-competent will either bait initiative by forcing random dodges or simply just use Headshot.
D/P has hard-countered D/D since release. No build is going to change that. The only thing that should let a D/D player win is a massive out-play and mistakes by the D/P player. In which case, your build suggestion is meaningless, because if the D/P guy gets out-played, he’d have lost when up against… you guessed it, D/P.
Pretty much what your entire post comes down to is suggesting that P/P hard-counters D/P and is an easy fight. Every argument you used can be applied to P/P with objectively more success (multi-hits, high damage, running EA), and it doesn’t “need” to run Lotus and can thus instantly be better off. We all know this matchup still favors D/P.
I think there comes a point in time you just need to realize maybe it’s you yourself that is holding you back in this game.
Think outside the box.
@Deceiver: you really don’t understand what i write, do you?
@Deceiver: you really don’t understand what i write, do you?
Apparently not. Care to elaborate so I do, or are we just going to leave it there?
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
You’re making it sound like D/P is difficult to use. It’s the easiest weapon set to use, compare to other Thief’s weapons set. It’s very effective even in the hands of noobs, no L2P required.
You want to play condition damage effectively, use D/P.
You want to use trapper rune effectively, use D/P.
Power base effectively, use D/P.
Venom condition? D/P.
Troll trapper rune? D/P.
D/P, D/P, D/P
You just can’t go wrong with it.The real question is, is there an ineffective way to play D/P?
That’s the whole point…I was making fun of you. It’s an easy set and the only set that is promoted by ANet (cause the balance team is clueless), yet you seem to have trouble playing it judging by your cry for a removal or nerfing of the revealed debuff.
Riiiight, that’s why I’ve ran so many effective builds using D/P that I’m really having a hard time using it. You lived in a Bizzaro World if that’s what you think.
I haven’t said d/d is easy (power that is; condi one is different story). It is simply easier to start with as a new player because it is very one dimensional (aka do dmg only). Just because d/p can fit in different builds, doesn’t make it easy. It makes it universal. Being effective on d/p is everything but easy.
All Thief weapons are one dimensional. All weapon set has one role — to do damage. So it’s lost to me on what the heck are you talking about as if you’re arguing in a Elementalist Forum and not in Thief Forum.
You don’t have to be an expert in Thief to be effective with D/P. Knowing the fundamentals on playing a Thief is enough — there’s nothing complex about the set. Compare that S/D, D/P is nothing special. SS (#3) → AA or BP (#5) → AA will win you a fight -- that’s how easy it is to use. If you do that with D/D, you’ll die due to higher risk and squishiness of the Thief.
What does d/d teach you as anew player? How to land backstab. Oh yeah, when to use HS.
No, what D/D teaches new player is how squishy Thieves are that going in melee range is a death sentence. D/P makes sure that going in melee is safe and easy using SS or BP. D/D is a bad weapon set to start new players — they should start with P/D imo.
What does d/p teach you as new player? How to land backstab, when to use HS, what to interrupt and when, how to use combos, how not to get interrupted while doing that combo, when to use gap closers and which, fact that blind goes through block etc.
New players could care less about combos and interrupt. That’s not even close to a realistic view of things. D/D is bad for new players since they have no idea how to manage initiatives and how and when to use evade. D/P is much easier because of blind — no need to manage initiatives because all the new player would do is use BP and stand in it and auto-attack until the target is dead.
The sets have different dimensions, simple as it is. Saying one is easier than other is stupid. D/D suffers so to say from lack of utility, d/p suffers from management of that very utility.
It is fairly obvious that D/P is far easier than D/D whether you’re a beginner or an expert, to say otherwise is asinine. D/P doesn’t suffers from managing utilities — you’re just creating some complication that was never there just to make your argument sound.
D/D has one big problem, that is survivability. The blind-on-stealth-trait in combination to regen-on-stealth-trait were very good for this weapon set. The fact that this weapon set relies on those traits is evidence that this weapon set is not an easy set.
I am not talking about wvw duels…… -_-
I am talking to a wall apparently, nvm.
I am not talking about wvw duels…… -_-
I am talking to a wall apparently, nvm.
Apparently — because that wall just put a full stop to your nonsense.
This idea is ridiculous. Why is guy getting so many replies?
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
You’re making it sound like D/P is difficult to use. It’s the easiest weapon set to use, compare to other Thief’s weapons set. It’s very effective even in the hands of noobs, no L2P required.
You want to play condition damage effectively, use D/P.
You want to use trapper rune effectively, use D/P.
Power base effectively, use D/P.
Venom condition? D/P.
Troll trapper rune? D/P.
D/P, D/P, D/P
You just can’t go wrong with it.The real question is, is there an ineffective way to play D/P?
That’s the whole point…I was making fun of you. It’s an easy set and the only set that is promoted by ANet (cause the balance team is clueless), yet you seem to have trouble playing it judging by your cry for a removal or nerfing of the revealed debuff.
Riiiight, that’s why I’ve ran so many effective builds using D/P that I’m really having a hard time using it. You lived in a Bizzaro World if that’s what you think.
No, I live “in a Bizzaro World” where you fail to use D/P so hard, that you think revealed needs to be removed or nerfed.
After reading countless QQ thief threads, this one takes the cake for me. After years and near constant nerfs, you want to take away one of the very FEW last things our class can do, because you have a hard time fighting them? LOL no.
You want to cripple Thieves ONLY real mechanic when EVERY CLASS BUT THIEF HAS A REVEAL, because you are angry that Thieves are using their ONLY ability to get close to you without you seeing. Please just learn to play. When a thief Stealth stacks, he loses the ability to use other abilities for a few seconds. That alone is enough.
If I were a dev I’d not only close this thread, but ban you from kitten posting on the Thief board.
The problem with your response is that, you didn’t read this thread. Because if you did, my suggestion, for instance, advocates in removing the one major thing that cripples the Thief, that is the Revealed debuff.
You sound like you really like D/P, but at the same time you don’t know how to play it effectively.
You’re making it sound like D/P is difficult to use. It’s the easiest weapon set to use, compare to other Thief’s weapons set. It’s very effective even in the hands of noobs, no L2P required.
You want to play condition damage effectively, use D/P.
You want to use trapper rune effectively, use D/P.
Power base effectively, use D/P.
Venom condition? D/P.
Troll trapper rune? D/P.
D/P, D/P, D/P
You just can’t go wrong with it.The real question is, is there an ineffective way to play D/P?
That’s the whole point…I was making fun of you. It’s an easy set and the only set that is promoted by ANet (cause the balance team is clueless), yet you seem to have trouble playing it judging by your cry for a removal or nerfing of the revealed debuff.
Riiiight, that’s why I’ve ran so many effective builds using D/P that I’m really having a hard time using it. You lived in a Bizzaro World if that’s what you think.
No, I live “in a Bizzaro World” where you fail to use D/P so hard, that you think revealed needs to be removed or nerfed.
So when you come back to the real world is when your statements will matter. I’ll wait.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.