Guild Wars 2

WARNING: LONG READ

With all of the complaint threads about thief, and screenshots of some insane amount of damage always saying it was done in 1 second etc, and never able to show any other circumstances (orb buffs, vulnerability stacks) then you add on to the fact A-nets horrible reputation (they are going to beat SWTOR devs at this rate) for nerfing the wrong ability (HS and PW). I think we might as well request a redesign. If their current “balance” adjustments continue in the same direction Thief players are not only going to have zero use in competitive play but even less use in wvwvw environments.

Personally I would have no problem if they redesigned the entire thief class’ damage to be based around condition damage instead of front loaded. Now this would probably require them to either A. improve condition damage scaling, or B. increase Vulnerability viability and have it effect conditions as well.

Lets start off with dual skills. I think dual skills should be the staple of each weapon combination. All the other abilities should have a way to streamline and create fluidity with said dual skill. Lets use death blossom as an example; It’s most upfront power is the ability to apply bleeds. Well all the other d/d abilities are really streamlined for a Burst damage build, save maybe the cripple on Dancing dagger (Im not going to count Lotus strike because lets face it it requires to hit 3 in a chain plus poison is lackluster as it is)

So with this redesign I could see D/D Each hit in the #1 chain does a specific condition,like double strike applies poison, wild strike applies bleeding, and lotus strike applies burning . Heartseeker could still do front loaded damage, and be a finisher, but all of it’s front loaded damage would be based around a bonus (like 5% for each stack of bleeding and 10% for all other conditions and requires target to be below 30% hp and obviously the base damage would have to be altered)… Also if the possible damage is made to be very very high, it could always consume the conditions after a successful hit, like a drawback. Of course there is always the way of changing it from a finisher to just a decent front loaded damage hit for the now condition thief while still having its damage based on number of conditions, (which makes even more sense in the initiative design), where you can apply your conditions and choose to spend init on an attack with front loaded burst depending on how many conditions/stacks you have on the target, with the counter being the target uses a condition remover and you just blew initiative and did tickle damage. Then we move on to backstab, keep the positional, just have it do a plethora of conditions if you hit from the front, and another front loaded hit based on how many conditions you have on the target when you strike from behind (this actually works really well on paper because it shuns away from 1 hit wonder and now requires actual out of stealth preparation like applying conditions or doing a front backstab before doing a back one)…. I am sure cloak and dagger could remain the same but if I were to change it in this redesign I would just have it not require a hit to stealth since it still takes initiative hit or miss.

Note: In my head, with the improvement to condition damage scaling, I am seeing something like 1k condition damage stat on a thief achieving maybe a 10% gain per tick of bleed damage for example over having 1400 condition damage currently.

Now you could say, “What would the use be for crit or crit damage now?”
Answer: Well with the attacks that still do front loaded damage with bonuses based on condition amount/stacks, those will still be able to crit. Also this change would require an obvious rework of a lot of talents, probably more talents in the critical strikes field that give things like “% to Bleed on crits”, " % to Chill on crits", “% to poison on crits” or “100% chance to cause Random condition on crit”

For other weapon choices, we could have Sword attacks be changed to heavily favor locking down an opponent but keeping mobility ; no more bugged self root on PW.. (thats just lol for a mobility based class). All #1 sword chain attacks could do conditions like daze, OR chill, and maybe an increased duration cripple. Pistol whip will no longer make the thief invulnerable during the duration, but will no longer self root, still stuns and only does 1 hit of a damaging attack (no longer a channel).

Then you could ask" With the sword set now based on lock down conditions and not damage, how do you kill the target?"
Answer: They will still do naturally more on hit damage then dagger, have the sweeping aoe function, and Pistol whip would have a bonus of it’s own and its only real source of damage. I was thinking something like: If the target has 1 condition the target gains 1 stack of burning. If the target has 2 conditions the target gains 1 stack of burning (at longer duration) and 10 stacks of bleeding . If the target has 3 conditions the target gains 1 stack of burning (at even longer duration) and 10 stacks of bleeding (at longer duration) and the target is knocked down for 1 second. The burning duration will also probably be around 5-8 seconds base. See Pistol/Pistol to see the offhand changes

Now we move on to Pistol/Pistol.
This will now be our staple mobility set and group function set to compete with shortbow. Pistol ranges increased to 1200 via a new talent
Pistol #1 Vital shot attack now applies 1 random condition on the target and a very short duration swiftness on the thief. Body shot will no longer have an after cast, and will cause the same vulnerability and now drain 25% of the target’s endurance but still do very little damage. Unload will still do it’s front loaded damage BUT each shot will bounce a number of times depending on the number of conditions the target has. Headshot will still daze, but the daze duration is now increased based on the number of conditions the target has (Ex: from a base 1/4s duration. duration is doubled for each condition on the target)
Black Powder will now place the standard smoke radius around the thief but will also place a connecting smoke line all the way to the target blinding it as well. EX: (o)====x where o= thief and x=target. This is a small change that now makes it a viable use of initiative for Pistol/Pistol builds keeping at range without really breaking it (the target will still have to be in the smoke line similar to the width of smoke screen to be pulsed with the blind).

Now onto Sword/Dagger’s Flanking strike. Due to main hand swords new natural lockdown and shadow step+return, and off hand daggers remaining stealth and cripple feel this will still remain the most tanky spec for thief. Flanking strike will have it’s pathing to no longer move the thief around the target. It will now have the thief jump up, over to right behind the target facing it as well in one quick motion. It will dodge during the entire animation, and when the thief lands he will stab the target in the back twice (this is all if the target doesn’t dodge ofc), each hit now turns the boons into conditions and grants the thief 5s of regen and vigor if the target has no boons.

I am sorry if this is a long read, but I think this will make not only make thief a much more interesting class with a higher skill cap, but quiet the complainers as well. Obviously all of these changes are with the expectation the rendering is fixed first.
The class will now be more comparable to a necro then a warrior. Instead of all of that boom headshot gib damage everyone complains about, it will draw out the fights a little longer, but give thief more control of situations with more condition options, while still keeping the mobility and stealth flavor.

Thanks for those who read, and you have to read it all to understand my vision.

Redesign the class to only do condition damage? no, stopped reading there.

And that is your problem, if you read on it is redesigning it to shift condition damage to be more of it’s main focus rather then front loaded damage, by reading on you will see it is not taking it all away, but conditions and condition damage would now be more of the building blocks for any burst. At the same time streamlining the weapon sets for more fluidity (also so the dual skills make sense in the set).
All of the high burst damage/ heavy function weapon abilities will have their damage/function based on how many conditions or stacks the opponent has with all or most of the other weapon abilities applying conditions

I don’t need to read further, the Thief is fine as it is. It has options for both crit/power and condition builds which are both viable paths to take. That is good design.

did you write a similar thread in spvp forum?

btw no. every class, as anet stated should be cannonglass/dps, tanky, support, condition.
fix the builds thief is bad.
even necro, the king of condition spamming, can be built power.

Anything that streamlines a class into. Single play style e.g. Conditions reduces player choice, class complexity, and ultimately, the fun of the game.

@Blazer It doesn’t have those options because the weapon sets do not make sense with the dual skills, they are mixed in sets where they shouldn’t be. This is why we have weapon sets, and they should be choices for specific builds. Saying thief is fine as it is just sounds like a HS/PW spammer that builds on relying on haste…

@Shukran I did because I also wanted to see what non-thief players thought, because it is also directed at them partially to stop the complaining, the complaining that however incorrect, A-net is listening to and nerfing based off of.

@Narlok It is not streamlining the class into a certain playstyle… It is streamlining weapon sets..again not the class. The redesign is to add more fluidity and base-line setup for the either burst/tank (like vigor for our mobility class) and control.
Conditions is the general term it is not reducing choice. There is still the choice of control..tank…or damage with small mixtures of both with differences by risk and reward. There is no mechanic in the game that fits for setup other then conditions. Now if we had combo points like other MMOs, or the chain setup like GW1 for assassin that is how you reduce complexity and choice. Having our abilities more reflect and compare to as an example the necro’s Sceptor ability “Feast of corruption” rather then say Warrior’s ability “Hundred Blades” or “Eviscerate” makes the class not only MORE complex but more fluid and my changes are still keeping the MOBILITY that the class is supposed to be structured around, it is not supposed to be structured around pop a cooldown burst damage

Knyx.5926:

@Blazer It doesn’t have those options because the weapon sets do not make sense with the dual skills, they are mixed in sets where they shouldn’t be. This is why we have weapon sets, and they should be choices for specific builds. Saying thief is fine as it is just sounds like a HS/PW spammer that builds on relying on haste…

Dude? Seriously? Why do you accuse me of playing a HS/PW build? I don’t play that. You don’t comprehend what good design is, I will explain. Good design is that 1 single weapon set, D/D has different play styles, crit/power and condition. This is the same for Short bow, these weapons are the best designed weapons for the Thief.

Just a small note, but I do think that dual weapon sets have some garbage synergy
Thief has seen nothing but nerfs also, whilst nothing has been given back and now it’s starting to show heavily with the usual guardian and warrior domination vs us if we build condition or anything but heavy burst they do as much damage as we do but are afforded better armor and recovery, they took from one hand and never gave back in the other.

Right now, they need to fix the 3 skill on S/D, the 2 skill on pistol is woeful, the 3 skill on D/P despite hitting hard is buggy, our shadowstep skill which is supposed to afford extra mobility paths horribly too, and stealth remains our number 1 advantage yet is hard countered hard by a lot of fail machanics. I hate being “that guy” I can’t say for definite if the nerfs aren’t well deserved or not this is just my subjective experience, but right now I feel that if I see just one more flat nerf to the thief class I’ll just not pvp with it at all and instead roll a warrior/guardian and roflulz tank my way through spvp like many of the horribly “kitten” driven players I’ve come across

“If you can’t beat em, join em”

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Knyx.5926:

@Blazer It doesn’t have those options because the weapon sets do not make sense with the dual skills, they are mixed in sets where they shouldn’t be. This is why we have weapon sets, and they should be choices for specific builds. Saying thief is fine as it is just sounds like a HS/PW spammer that builds on relying on haste…

Dude? Seriously? Why do you accuse me of playing a HS/PW build? I don’t play that. You don’t comprehend what good design is, I will explain. Good design is that 1 single weapon set, D/D has different play styles, crit/power and condition. This is the same for Short bow, these weapons are the best designed weapons for the Thief.

I made the accusation based on your thinking that is 99.999% shared by the spammers building around 1 trick ponies.
If you think that is good design and shares those playstyles, please enlighten me and the community on how D/D shares equal focus with crit+power AND condition.
Also please enlighten us on how shortbow can be good for condition….

Maybe you meant the poison on lotus strike? The one with low duration and horrible damage due to non stacking even with high condition damage stat?
Or maybe the cripple on dancing dagger? That is about the only other one aside from deathblossom, our dual skill which is supposed to be the staple the other weapon abilities should have a focus around….
Sure CnD applies vulnerability, but vulnerability doesnt effect condition damage….and CND misses alot unless u shadowstep to the target before/while using it.

Shortbow? I mean common even more off base. couple stacks of bleeding from a very slow projectile speed aoe? Or again a pitiful poison, Hint: The main benefit from that ability is the combo field not the poison, not by a long shot.

Knyx.5926:

@Blazer It doesn’t have those options because the weapon sets do not make sense with the dual skills, they are mixed in sets where they shouldn’t be. This is why we have weapon sets, and they should be choices for specific builds. Saying thief is fine as it is just sounds like a HS/PW spammer that builds on relying on haste…

Look, I get it. Not all the weapon skills in any particular weapon set follow a specific theme and it means you can’t get a 100 % streamlined min/max setup. Here’s the problem with your logic following that-

All of the thief weapon setups are currently at least somewhat viable despite that, and most of them are quite powerful.

It might look like poor design to you, coming from most games where each skill option is unique and steamlined towards a certain playstyle, but it works well the way it is.

The thief is not a weak profession, nor does it lack for playstyle options. There’s enough condition damage options and power options to play either way effectively, not just as a gimmick. There are viable ranged and melee options, slow and mobile options, glassy and survivable options. When I encounter a thief in the wild I cannot immediately counter them, even if I know what weapons they’re using, until I ascertain exactly what kind of playstyle they’ve chosen to pursue. This creates depth, something that game developers struggle oh so very hard to create.

What you’re asking for in the OP may seem a logical focusing of the profession, but the end result will be severely diminishing the many viable options already available and making the thief into a shallow profession that is easily countered before any move is made. I get asking for a major profession revamp when what is currently in place just doesn’t work, but thieves are already effective in every area of the game and not just with a few specific builds, but dozens of unique and effective setups running along several combat doctrines.

As for the whole “their balance decisions in reducing thief burst will render thieves inevitably useless”, stop buying into the nerftrain hype. Even _if_high-damage <3 second burst setups get weakened there will still be many other ways to viably play a thief and win in all parts of GW2 because the class isn’t shallow and streamlined towards a single playstyle. Personally, my playstyle has been unaffected by any of the changes so far.

tl;dr – GW2 gets away with not having extremely focused and exclusive build types and it works, where is the real need to change it?

Doubtful. You probably made the accusation to belittle or besmirch your ‘opponent’.
I find little merit in your idea, but your attacks against the person of those that disagree with you only robs you of your credibility. Of course, that could probably be said about most of us. Oh, why do discussions so frequently devolve into barbarism! Woe is me, etc, etc.

Inscribed.1609:

Doubtful. You probably made the accusation to belittle or besmirch your ‘opponent’.
I find little merit in your idea, but your attacks against the person of those that disagree with you only robs you of your credibility. Of course, that could probably be said about most of us. Oh, why do discussions so frequently devolve into barbarism! Woe is me, etc, etc.

This is just a drawn out version of the same as saying “QQ”. There was no attack or belittling, people just have attitudes and there are observations of those attitudes.
If anything thinking it is an attack makes you lose credibility.
But as you seem to get infractions on these forums just for proving someone of a younger generation incorrect and attempting to have a civil conversation with them, I will just hit the ignore button for you both, bid you good day, and focus my conversation with the intellectuals that care to add to the thread.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I don’t need to read further, the Thief is fine as it is. It has options for both crit/power and condition builds which are both viable paths to take. That is good design.

Same goes for me.

Besides that, Necromancer is the condition master, while Thief is the master of direct dmg (with both classes still having options for the other way).

Changing a whole class around your playstyle seems to be rather ridiculous.

If you want to manage conditions, i suggest running a necro, instead of asking for a remake of a perfectly fine class.

/E:

I agree with the point regarding the mixed skill sets though, for example the Leaping Death Blossom in the Dagger/Dagger set up is out of place (so far out of place that i haven’t even a Key binding for it, i like diversity, but having this one con skill just doesn’t makes sense on a melee burst weapon set).
My suggestion would be to take the condition dmg out of it, replacing it with something else, instead of changing the heart of the class (fast movement, stealth, hard hitting crits).

BTW, no good power Thief would ever spam HS or PW, none.

Asum.4960:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I don’t need to read further, the Thief is fine as it is. It has options for both crit/power and condition builds which are both viable paths to take. That is good design.

Same goes for me.

Besides that, Necromancer is the condition master, while Thief is the master of direct dmg (with both classes still having options for the other way).

Changing a whole class around your playstyle seems to be rather ridiculous.

If you want to manage conditions, i suggest running a necro, instead of asking for a remake of a perfectly fine class.

/E:

I agree with the point regarding the mixed skill sets though, for example the Leaping Death Blossom in the Dagger/Dagger set up is out of place.
My suggestion would be to take the condition dmg out of it, replacing it with something else, instead of changing the heart of the class (fast movement, stealth, hard hitting crits).

Not trying to change it to my playstyle. I am trying to move it away from the WoW rogue mindless class, and more to a unique and creative way and at the SAME time removing any need for the current complaints that A-net is clearly balancing based off of. I see a lot like you didn’t read it, because reading it you would realize however complex and long the changes are (do you not agree balance is indeed complex?) the changes themselves are mostly fairly small additions and tweaks.
To make it easier on readers I will show a common rotation in comparison;

A current live Backstab build will most likely cloak and dagger->Steal->Assassin signet+Backstab (after moving around the target if he has to).

With my changes instead the thief will have to make a choice to get the same backstab damage. They can either (usng the same rotation mindset) Cloak and dagger-> Steal->front backstab do a #1 chain/etc till revealed is gone then stealth again and backstab the target on the back for the same damage as live since with my changes the back positional damage on it is based on how many conditions/stacks the target has, heartseeker would be the same way in my changes. Whilst hitting the target in the front positional with backstab will just apply a bunch of long duration conditions.

Knyx.5926:

I think dual skills should be the staple of each weapon combination. All the other abilities should have a way to streamline and create fluidity with said dual skill.

Thereby diminishing the options available to thieves, since thieves can currently choose to do anything from building heavily into their dual skill to completely ignoring it and everything in-between. The way things are set up now seems chaotic and unorganized, but all that really matters is that it is effective despite that. I’m all for Flanking Strike tweaks, for instance, but there doesn’t need to be a push to make dual skills the heart of thief effectiveness.

And still, burst Thief is not broken, so why “fix” (or break) it?

Dagger/Dagger is the Assassin archetype, bursting enemies down out of the shadows.
Why would anyone like to see conditions added everywhere into the set?

Again, if you have great ideas for conditions, and how to make a super nasty condition master, you probably should check the Necromancer.
While the Thief can be played as conditioner, just like every other class, he isn’t focused around it (like most other classes).

Warrior: Brawler/weapon master archetype
Necromancer: Conditionier/Curse/undead archetype
Mesmer: Illusion/mind tricker archetype
Elementalist: Ranged/AoE dmg archetype
Guardian: Support/Tank archetype
Ranger: companion/ranged dmg archetype
Thief: Burst/Assassin archetype

And while all classes can do everything to a certain extend, thats where their focus lies.
As i see it, you want to mess with the core of a class, and the archetype it’s representing.

Do i think the Thief should be able to do condition dmg? Hell yeah, and he’s just fine.
Do i think the Thief should be heavily focused on condition dmg? No, absolutely not. Also the Necromancer already pleases people who love that archetype.

BTW, i play Thief AND Necro for that very reason.
Thief for my bursting assassin, and Necro for my nasty conditions.

I neither think the Necro should be changed to be all about burst, nor the Thief to be all about conditions.
Otherwise ArenaNet wouldn’t have designed them in the way they are.

Asum.4960:

Otherwise ArenaNet wouldn’t have designed them in the way they are.

They aren’t designed the way you think they are, and your “class archetypes” are gross oversimplifications. You’re taking the same stance as OP, only in the conservative sense of “I want thieves to be a shallow and focused profession, just in my way and not yours”. You’ve found a playstyle you enjoy with your necro and a playstyle you enjoy with your thief, and that is great, but they aren’t the only viable playstyles for each profession.

@ Tulisin, it looks like a diminishes the options available if you never read the OP…..
All the changes are really going is adding a few more requirements to hit the same burst if they want to build around it, whilst also adding the applications the requirements are based off of into the abilities in the same set. This is not diminishing anything, a thief can still build for crit+crit damage and power, a thief can still build for crit+condition damage, a thief can still build for power+condition damage, etc etc etc etc any combination. This just makes it so EVERY ability in the set is valid for the builds the weapon set is built around and at the same time adding a little requirement for the burst that makes the setup less of popping a cooldown and more of hitting a few weapon attacks or a frontal backstab before you do the burst damage (just using d/x as an example)

@ Asum…. yet another who did not read the OP except maybe the first paragraph…. this is getting pretty old and only looks like trolling. You just saw the word necro posted a few times there and condition damage and everyone is freaking out. If you actually read the whole thing you will realize I said changing the class to be better compared to a necro, not become a necro copy, and less comparable to a warrior.

What YOU think is the focus of a class does not mean it actually is or rather does not mean it makes sense. I am sorry but id rather have thief be more complex then be wow rogue like it is currently

“The builds the weapon set is built around” is the flaw in your logic here. Weapon sets aren’t created around playstyles, playstyles are created with what weapon sets offer. Streamline weapon sets towards specific playstyles and you’ve reduced the malleability of the class.

Well we have to agree to disagree there then. There is no viability in building around tank stats and going dagger/dagger. So that nullifies your logic and that is only one example

Tulisin.6945:

Asum.4960:

Otherwise ArenaNet wouldn’t have designed them in the way they are.

They aren’t designed the way you think they are, and your “class archetypes” are gross oversimplifications. You’re taking the same stance as OP, only in the conservative sense of “I want thieves to be a shallow and focused profession, just in my way and not yours”.

Actually they are not. I have fallowed GW 2 since it was announced 5 years ago (since i played GW since the day it was released), and they first of designed the classes based on archetypes (just the way i wrote them down), and diversified them from there on.
But still, thats the design core of the classes, before they went on the “every class can do everything” route.

It wasn’t me who came up with the archetypes for the classes of GW 2, it was ArenaNet.

And i actually like the diversity of the classes. But i also like that they put nearly every archetype into the game they could come up with, and that made sense to.
I don’t want one archetype to be deleted, to have 2 of another.

The condition master already exists, it’s the Necro, even if the Necro doesn’t have to go for conditions, and every other class can.

Asum.4960:

Tulisin.6945:

Asum.4960:

Otherwise ArenaNet wouldn’t have designed them in the way they are.

They aren’t designed the way you think they are, and your “class archetypes” are gross oversimplifications. You’re taking the same stance as OP, only in the conservative sense of “I want thieves to be a shallow and focused profession, just in my way and not yours”.

Actually they are not. I have fallowed GW 2 since it was announced 5 years ago (since i played GW since the day it was released), and they first of designed the classes based on archetypes (just the way i wrote them down), and diversified them from there on.
But still, thats the design core of the classes, before they went on the “every class can do everything” route.

It wasn’t me who came up with the archetypes for the classes of GW 2, it was ArenaNet.

And i actually like the diversity of the classes. But i also like that they put nearly every archetype into the game they could come up with, and that made sense to.
I don’t want one archetype to be deleted, to have 2 of another.

The condition master already exists, it’s the Necro (even if the Necro doesn’t have to go for conditions, and every other class can).

Again still haven’t read the OP past the first paragraph, I can tell because you are still stuck on thinking my changes have anything to do with making the thief a condition master or necro copy. ….

Knyx.5926:

Well we have to agree to disagree there then. There is no viability in building around tank stats and going dagger/dagger. So that nullifies your logic and that is only one example

If you take signet of malice and acrobatics, tank stats + d/d actually offers the highest dodge rate in the game, allowing you to produce more caltrops (thereby bleed, healing, and cripple either highly focused or in a large area). You’ll also be invulnerable for long periods of time due to chained dodges/evades and constant malice heals. This is, by far, the best way to cripple an entire zerg that exists in GW2. A defensive D/D thief is a large-scale battlefield control asset. Fun side-fact is that being able to maintain >8 stacks of might and permaswiftness (thereby allowing you to drop SoS for something useful) means your damage is solid, even without stacking heavy power, which combined with dancing dagger means you can chase and burst down stragglers. Add daggerstorm and you can pretty easily push entire zergs off of gates as you 25-stack bleed the area while invincible.

JKlol, daggers are only good for stacking power and stack-babbin’ people to death.

To get signet of malice to heal well outside of spvp and on things other then just dagger storm you have to stack some healing power not just acro. For the d/d build you are suggesting to work your main stats would be condition damage (and duration) not tanking stats…. so again… lol
It is also not the highest battlefield control asset nor does it offer the most dodge, the evade on DB is shorter then the animation itself and short then an actual dodge roll…. again…lol
25 stacks of bleeding from dagger storm? What are you smoking?
Building for perma swiftness?

lol you got like the focuses of 7 completely different builds rolled into some super saiyan build that can stack every stat to the max… Sorry we are playing different games

>To get signet of malice to heal well outside of spvp and on things other then just dagger storm you have to stack some healing power not just acro.

Healing power doesn’t do much for Signet of Malice, so I wouldn’t recommend it. The power of Signet of Malice is getting >20 ticks of 110 hp/s, not sacrificing all of your gear to push it to 150 hp/s. You don’t need to push condition damage to get 25 stacks of bleed, most of them are coming from caltrops, not daggerstorm. While stacking heavy condition damage would make the setup more deadly, stacking tank stats supplements your dodge/evasion to ensure you can get back out after pushing everyone back. Permaswiftness is a doubly useful asset simply because so many thieves are used to SoS that they’ll lose the combat effectiveness conferred by a more useful utility skill in favor of it.

You can be effective and useful in combat without being focused on on single-target damage, even with daggers. The perceived lack of playstyle options for thieves is borne of the thief playerbase only really wanting to focus on one or two roles. That is fine, some roles are more popular than others, but it isn’t a reason to realign the profession based on one or two preferred playstyles.

Still you are rolling multiple builds into 1 impossible one. You can’t build for all that at once, much less be viable.

To get that healing per second, is only obtainable through dagger storm. So again….

Since when does dagger/dagger have caltrops? Since when does dagger/dagger have dagger storm? last i checked those were utility and elite slots. Not dependent on weapon choice. Neither is signet of malice.
25 stacks of bleeding without condition damage is a joke, unviable damage. 25 stacks of bleeding without some Con-duration is also dumb. Stacking all those tank stats on dagger/dagger still is not viable. You have Sword/Dagger which is the most viable for that, with Sword/pistol second to S/d
So you are still posting claim to an unviable, impossible build, that does neither good AOE damage or single target much less tank for crap

Still thinking it is realigning toward a playstyle is still not reading the OP past the first paragraph, this is becoming very troll like.

That healing per second is not only attainable through daggerstorm, since you can easily have >4 caltrops fields up at once in the same location. What dagger/dagger provides in this particular setup is endurance regen on mainhand attack and LDB for additional evasion on demand. 25 stacks of bleeding even without heavy condition damage is 1500-1800/second, more than enough to force people to retreat or attempt to drop conditions, which is why this is battlefield control instead of an attempt to kill massive groups of people. Furthermore, even with zero +condition damage on your gear itself, you’re getting +100 for grabbing dodgetrops as a trait, 200 – 300 from might, and possibly 60 from divinity runes (I favor those even for defensive stats).

There’s nothing wrong with ignoring the viability of thief setups that aren’t simple engage-and-destroy solutions up to the point where you request the profession be realigned to those specific doctrines. Liking a specific playstyle over another doesn’t make you a bad thief, or even an immalleable one, but that doesn’t mean only your playstyle should continue to exist.

ANet nerfed Pistolwhip to the point where there’s no sense using it for damage. You get a stun at the price of 5 initiative and being rooted in place, albeit we have an evade period during that root.
As a PvE thief, I find Pistol Whip to be alarmingly underwhelming right now.
What did I do? I pulled together the materials I had farmed up until that point and built a set of full carrion gear. Armor/jewelry/weapons. I devised a new build in Heart of the Mists to accompany this set. I am now back to creaming newbies in WvW and dealing great damage in dungeons. Learn to adapt.

That being said, I still agree with the notion that our class has been based primarily around complaints by the community which has a LOT of bads in it (Most good players are playing and not rolling around these forums ;P). I realize we’re going to see a major lack of balance overall as a class, however for the time being we still have avenues for success.
It’s just a shame that I don’t get to make my iconic sword/pistol combo my main weapon set anymore. I’m still keeping it to help tank in dungeons and increase my mobility in WvW (Rune of energy on sword for the lulz) but I’ve adapted my build.

Welcome to MMOs

Tulsin you are clearly trolling and now I have to report it as such. Caltrops healing from SoM?
1500-1800 dps from caltrops AND no condition damage? lol? did you even read what you wrote…

LDB for evade? the one that is shorter then the animation and a dodge roll?

Endurance gain from main hand? you mean the tiny amount?

Yea obviously a troll

You don’t know that caltrops heals via SoM? One of the thief’s most unique and powerful combinations.There’s a difference between “no condition damage” and no condition damage on your equipment. You need 10 points in Trickery for uncatchable, and should be running 175-350 condition damage from Might stacks for a total of 275-450 condition damage. Add in another 60 from divinity runes for 335-510 condition damage. If you decide you want to push it higher with accessories or something that is certainly viable while maintaining heavy defensive stats.

Endurance gain from mainhand attack is a small amount, but it has a multiplicative effect on the number of dodges you can do when combined with other bonuses. Remember that acrobatics refunds about a third of a dodge’s worth of endurance per dodge, meaning the more you dodge, the more bonus dodges you get. D/D might not be the best weapon setup for a build like this in every situation, but it is certainly viable.

Doesn’t heal for me.
That is no where enough condition damage to be viable, and that is not reaching anywhere that DPS unless you are talking total DPS with like 10 targets standing still in the caltrops field, in which case is still nothing for damage with that little condition damage and no duration additions. You also realize divinity does not add to condition damage right? lol…

You are still straying from dagger/dagger by focusing on utility and elite slots.
The only way your setup is viable is with full carion gear, 30 in trickery and like 20 in acro and SA. In which case condition damage is still your focus stat. I have tested the different sets that would matchup well and since we lack a Precision+Vitality+Condition damage gear combination, Carion is where it is at.
I use this in wvwvw as all other sets are really lackluster and even though you may feel good and contributing by taking out that solo lone ranger enemy with other builds that is not helping his side, doesn’t mean you are helping yours either.

Knyx.5926:

You also realize divinity does not add to condition damage right? lol…

And yet it both increases the condition damage in my stats window and makes my actual conditions do more damage in combat. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune_of_Divinity

I’m going to stop here, as I’m not really sure you play GW2 anymore. You’re free to use whatever build you find viable to accomplish whatever goal you’ve set for yourself, but trying to realign the profession as a whole and narrow its viable options to more closely match your own preferences is not going to be beneficial to the profession or the game in the long run.

You might want to try SoM healing on caltrops again though, very effective.

Tulisin.6945:

Knyx.5926:

You also realize divinity does not add to condition damage right? lol…

And yet it both increases the condition damage in my stats window and makes my actual conditions do more damage.

I’m going to stop here, as I’m not really sure you play GW2 anymore.

likewise lol. It increases Power not condition damage. it has 10 to Power, Precision, Toughness, and vitality. Im guessing you think the power increase from points in deadly arts also increase your condition damage? That would be duration sonny. With a total of 60 to each. It does not increase secondaries like Condition damage, healing power, etc.
and no SoM doesnt proc off caltrops. But keep trolling.