Guild Wars 2

achensherd.2735:

Kaos.9162:

The ranger community generally likes him, but having him around doesn’t really help us much. He’s on dungeon design, not balance, so the most he can do it bring up our problems to the balance team. It seems to me (and a fair number of other people, I think) that the devs responsible for balance don’t really play rangers.

Ranger player here, and I for one almost cried man tears when he started posting in our forums (“A dev! A dev! Someone at ANet cares! He plays a Ranger, too?! I can’t breathe!”). However, like Kaos mentioned, he’s not on balance, so whether or not we’ll actually see any changes/fixes/overhauls to our profession because of him is as of yet unknown, and is something he himself has constantly reminded us of (lest we jump him if nothing happens, I suppose). Still, having even a modicum of dev input/commentary is night and day compared to having none, especially for our profession and after the months of silence following the now-infamous “Ranger Update” thread.

This is what I was trying to get at. With someone like Robert at least we get some insight into ANet’s priorities in terms of balance and which issues they’re acknoledging and their rationale for dismissing others.

ANet is completely silent on all other forums.

Jinks.2057:

Epic Beast.5189:

Jinks.2057:

Adaneshade.2409:

Jinks.2057:

You haven’t answered the question….

Also what do call spamming stealth? CnD every 3 seconds after your sneak attack or CnD chaining?

Im sorry but you’re still a lil unclear with your posts

I’m referring to use of stealth as your ONLY defensive technique. Obvioulsy chaining C&D would be the absolute worst offender of that. But making a build that requires you to re-enter stealth every 3 seconds on the dot isn’t much better. Why not make a build that has some other defensive measures? Shadowstepping, access to tons of evasion abilities. People who only use stealth are only playing half the class. It shows very linear thinking and a lack of really understanding the class.

As I said before, stealth is a great tool. I use it, it’s the people who don’t even use anything else that fall short of the mark for truly high end PvP.

Ok so basically you consider evade builds to take more skill than stealth builds…..or a combination of the two to fully play the class at a certain level.

It also seems you have certain builds in mind for “skilled” thief play. For some reason you won’t tell me what they are, nor link them….I don’t understand why you would do this so I’ma throw a few things out there:

1. S/X takes LESS skill than D/D to succeed at a high level
2. Running GC requires MORE skill than running non GC
3. D/P is the true stealth problem not X/D
4. sPvP takes LESS skill than solo roaming WvW

These may be the main points we will disagree about, and since you were kinda beating around the bush i just threw em out. We can debate these or you can come up with what you truly think is a “skilled” build, but I believe I pegged that one down.

You believe a non GC build utilizing shadow steps more so than stealth to achieve victory is the best way to go. The weapon sets you feel take the most skill are S/D or S/P….and I hope to the good lord you don’t think D/P requires special amounts of skill either.

I honestly don’t agree with you.

4. sPvP takes LESS skill than solo roaming WvW….. Not sure if ure serious… Can u explain this point?

In sPvP

Is there less build diversity
Is there a damage cap
Is the game set ib a very controlled environment
Is there a chance to face 10-1 odds

Im sorry but sPvP takes less skill.

and ure that gud in wvw m8? go prove yourself in the mists… maybe ure the next top thief and we dont know… im sorry… but we have diferent opinions

Jinks.2057:

Im sorry but sPvP takes less skill.

While I agree with just about everything else in your posts I don’t really agree with this one.

I define skill as your ability to play your class. It matters how well a person play his or her class.

You can zerg in wvw or in spvp. You also “solo” in both.

I like that everyone is equally geared in spvp. I don’t like fighting some under leveled noob in wvw that dies to just one cnd. I think the differences between an 80 using exotics and non-80 is huge. It requires a lot less skill to kill those players than some random noob who just bought the game 15m ago and tried spvp. At least that guy has decent gear on and he’s a bit tougher to kill.

Adaneshade.2409:

The stealth nerfs will be GOOD for our profession as a whole as it will drive out some of the bads … we now get a patch that will “separate the men form the boys”. It’s high time for the class to be respectable.

…

Any build that relies totally on stealth openers would fall into this category. [Only a noob would use high damage/utility attacks that cost zero initiative.]

…

The GC builds that don’t rely on distraction and evasion instead of stealth require tons of skill to play for sure.

…

Why would anyone run from a fight?

…

Only a good thief would stand there and take it like a man instead of using evasion and stealth to avoid damage.

Where do the builds that don’t have any defense fall into according to adaneshade schema of noob/non-noob builds for thief?

For instance, jinzu build, is that a noob or non-noob build?

Epic Beast.5189:

Jinks.2057:

Epic Beast.5189:

Jinks.2057:

Adaneshade.2409:

Jinks.2057:

You haven’t answered the question….

Also what do call spamming stealth? CnD every 3 seconds after your sneak attack or CnD chaining?

Im sorry but you’re still a lil unclear with your posts

I’m referring to use of stealth as your ONLY defensive technique. Obvioulsy chaining C&D would be the absolute worst offender of that. But making a build that requires you to re-enter stealth every 3 seconds on the dot isn’t much better. Why not make a build that has some other defensive measures? Shadowstepping, access to tons of evasion abilities. People who only use stealth are only playing half the class. It shows very linear thinking and a lack of really understanding the class.

As I said before, stealth is a great tool. I use it, it’s the people who don’t even use anything else that fall short of the mark for truly high end PvP.

Ok so basically you consider evade builds to take more skill than stealth builds…..or a combination of the two to fully play the class at a certain level.

It also seems you have certain builds in mind for “skilled” thief play. For some reason you won’t tell me what they are, nor link them….I don’t understand why you would do this so I’ma throw a few things out there:

1. S/X takes LESS skill than D/D to succeed at a high level
2. Running GC requires MORE skill than running non GC
3. D/P is the true stealth problem not X/D
4. sPvP takes LESS skill than solo roaming WvW

These may be the main points we will disagree about, and since you were kinda beating around the bush i just threw em out. We can debate these or you can come up with what you truly think is a “skilled” build, but I believe I pegged that one down.

You believe a non GC build utilizing shadow steps more so than stealth to achieve victory is the best way to go. The weapon sets you feel take the most skill are S/D or S/P….and I hope to the good lord you don’t think D/P requires special amounts of skill either.

I honestly don’t agree with you.

4. sPvP takes LESS skill than solo roaming WvW….. Not sure if ure serious… Can u explain this point?

In sPvP

Is there less build diversity
Is there a damage cap
Is the game set ib a very controlled environment
Is there a chance to face 10-1 odds

Im sorry but sPvP takes less skill.

and ure that gud in wvw m8? go prove yourself in the mists… maybe ure the next top thief and we dont know… im sorry… but we have diferent opinions

How does one take on 10 ppl in the mists?

swinsk.6410:

Jinks.2057:

Im sorry but sPvP takes less skill.

While I agree with just about everything else in your posts I don’t really agree with this one.

I define skill as your ability to play your class. It matters how well a person play his or her class.

You can zerg in wvw or in spvp. You also “solo” in both.

I like that everyone is equally geared in spvp. I don’t like fighting some under leveled noob in wvw that dies to just one cnd. I think the differences between an 80 using exotics and non-80 is huge. It requires a lot less skill to kill those players than some random noob who just bought the game 15m ago and tried spvp. At least that guy has decent gear on and he’s a bit tougher to kill.

Fighting noobs isn’t something I base my statements on. It never will be.

swinsk.6410:

Where do the builds that don’t have any defense fall into according to adaneshade schema of noob/non-noob builds for thief?

For instance, jinzu build, is that a noob or non-noob build?

It’s poorly built. Is it difficult to play other than 1v1? Sure….. However, I’d never let someone running a build like that on my tPvP team, it’s simply a gimmick build that has no real sustainability. Downing someone but being too squishy to actually finish them is of no real use in this PvP meta.

Daeqar.8965:

Adaneshade.2409:

The stealth nerfs will be GOOD for our profession as a whole as it will drive out some of the bads … we now get a patch that will “separate the men form the boys”. It’s high time for the class to be respectable.

…

Any build that relies totally on stealth openers would fall into this category. [Only a noob would use high damage/utility attacks that cost zero initiative.]

…

The GC builds that don’t rely on distraction and evasion instead of stealth require tons of skill to play for sure.

…

Why would anyone run from a fight?

…

Only a good thief would stand there and take it like a man instead of using evasion and stealth to avoid damage.

Nice paraphrasing there, only a noob would use just one or the other rather than a good combination of the two or be foolish enough to run a build that dies should they get knocked down and hundred bladed or something like that. You have to design your build tough enough for the odd occasion that you can’t use an escape and have to eat someone’s burst in order to be at maximum usefulness in this meta. Killing isn’t what’s important in this game’s version of PvP, it’s surviving and controlling an area (applies both to PvP and to WvW).

Being forced to flee is the same as losing as you lose control of that territory.

Adaneshade.2409:

Nice paraphrasing there, only a noob would use just one or the other rather than a good combination of the two or be foolish enough to run a build that dies should they get knocked down and hundred bladed or something like that. You have to design your build tough enough for the odd occasion that you can’t use an escape and have to eat someone’s burst in order to be at maximum usefulness in this meta. Killing isn’t what’s important in this game’s version of PvP, it’s surviving and controlling an area (applies both to PvP and to WvW).

Being forced to flee is the same as losing as you lose control of that territory.

I’m not a proponent of glass cannon builds, even for thieves. And I actually agree with a number of the things you say, but I was just using a little sarcasm to point out that a lot of them are also ludicrous. You take things to such an extreme that your reasonable points are weakened because they are frequently paired with statements that are obviously wrong at face value.

There are lots of different roles and functions in WvW – it’s actually the most nuanced game mode we have available. One niche function in team based play in WvW is scouting and providing immediate information in voice chat – enemy movements, disposition of forces, siege locations, portals and veils, and other things like just being a distraction, murdering dolyaks, or just killing/delaying enemy scouts before they get useful info. A disciplined group with a good leader can do powerful things when they have eyes and ears. Thieves are far and away the best class for this and a skilled player can provide a lot of value with a coordinated team/guild. And, it’s usually best served with durable builds with lots of stealth – not glass cannon griefer builds. This function runs away, a lot, and is very successful because it can. The revealed buff change will very much affect good thief players providing this function.

Even without providing that role, general purpose players frequently have good reason to run away in WvW. Why? Because the WvW setting rarely presents a fair fight. It’s not a turnstile of players waiting their turn for a 1v1, or even 5v5 or 10v10 in open field. Running away is strategically more valuable than dying in most cases. You maintain your position in the map, which may take minutes of running to reach, and may continue to harrass objectives and occupy enemy players. Is it still losing? Absolutely, but letting overwhelming numbers kill you with no chance of winning is rarely better.

To put it bluntly, if a player is running thief and not using a considerable amount of stealth in their build, they probably rolled the wrong class. As it is now, stealth mechanics are very nearly the only thing that objectively (quantifiable contribution towards winning) makes a thief worth playing over other classes. Sure, a skilled player can make a low/no stealth thief build and have fun and success with it, but in every case I can point out at least one (often multiple) different class that can provide a very similar or essentially the same basic gameplay at a higher/better level. Stealth is the ingredient that makes an objective person admit, “Yeah, no other class can do ‘that’ or do it that well.” A thief player pretty much has no choice but to use lots of stealth if they intend to play this game at a high level. Of course it’s not the only tool in their bag, but it is a primary one.

I made a point in every post to point out that stealth is a great tool. Can anyone honestly sit there and tell me that people who only use stealth and have no idea how to use a shadowstep in combat for repositioning are “skilled” though. This is the issue i see with 90% of the thieves I kill while roaming in wvw. They rely too heavily on that one mechanic, rather than a healthy mix of our 4 defensive options (armor, hp, shadowstepping/evasion, stealth).

I guess my overall point is that creating a build that tries to stand on a single leg rather than all 4 is not very indicative of an experienced PvP’er. This applies to every PvP MMO.

Adaneshade.2409:

It’s poorly built. Is it difficult to play other than 1v1? Sure….. However, I’d never let someone running a build like that on my tPvP team, it’s simply a gimmick build that has no real sustainability. Downing someone but being too squishy to actually finish them is of no real use in this PvP meta.

Well, I haven’t really played on a team before. Just in a pug with some people in TS once and I was playing my more balanced thief.

I played some free tourny’s this morning and came in first or second each time. Even the 2 times our random pug team lost. The only 2 times I lost is when we played against a team of 5 all from same guild, presumably in TS/vent. Symh or something…

I still managed to insta gib a ton of thier players and we only lost by 1 cap. Sure, if I am running at a warrior and he sees me and he knows I am insta gib he is going to be prepared for it, but if I use SB or simply wait for someone else to engage him and then insta gib him, chances are he will die from mug+cnd.

Not saying you should have a full team of insta gib thieves, but having 1 roaming and dropping people in the middle of skirmishes can be very useful. It’s easy to finish someone off with haste.

Adaneshade.2409:

I made a point in every post to point out that stealth is a great tool. Can anyone honestly sit there and tell me that people who only use stealth and have no idea how to use a shadowstep in combat for repositioning are “skilled” though. This is the issue i see with 90% of the thieves I kill while roaming in wvw. They rely too heavily on that one mechanic, rather than a healthy mix of our 4 defensive options (armor, hp, shadowstepping/evasion, stealth).

I guess my overall point is that creating a build that tries to stand on a single leg rather than all 4 is not very indicative of an experienced PvP’er. This applies to every PvP MMO.

I understand what your trying to say here but I don’t understand why you are saying it.

People will play the way want too. I’ve always used my shadowstep and blinding powder or whatever else to distract and move. After fights usually all my CDs are down and sure I use CND a lot too.

Some people use it, some don’t.

swinsk.6410:

Adaneshade.2409:

I made a point in every post to point out that stealth is a great tool. Can anyone honestly sit there and tell me that people who only use stealth and have no idea how to use a shadowstep in combat for repositioning are “skilled” though. This is the issue i see with 90% of the thieves I kill while roaming in wvw. They rely too heavily on that one mechanic, rather than a healthy mix of our 4 defensive options (armor, hp, shadowstepping/evasion, stealth).

I guess my overall point is that creating a build that tries to stand on a single leg rather than all 4 is not very indicative of an experienced PvP’er. This applies to every PvP MMO.

I understand what your trying to say here but I don’t understand why you are saying it.

People will play the way want too. I’ve always used my shadowstep and blinding powder or whatever else to distract and move. After fights usually all my CDs are down and sure I use CND a lot too.

Some people use it, some don’t.

Hence, the proposed nerf not affecting well built thieves, only the poorly built ones that rely solely on stealth…..I claimed the nerf would have minimal effect on a good thief’s gameplay. You made it sound as if it would break every build that used stealth at all.

Either way, the point is now moot, since that change is not even in patch notes.