Guild Wars 2

Haven’t made a forum presence in a while, but I just have a little question. It will actually be nice to hear from other old high skilled Thieves out there. I know since expansion there has been many new Thieves (Daredevils) on the come up, and I always love running into “new gens”when logged on roaming Sea of Sorrows EB. But anyways as I said before I would love to hear from some oldies, because I don’t want a bias from all the DD new gens that really haven’t delved into core Thief yet.

-How do you feel Thief matches up to Daredevil?

I must say I’ve run into some pretty nicely skilled DD’s while roaming. Though I don’t really particularly like Daredevil, I will forever be a Critical Strikes core Thief guy. For my oldies.

How do you like Daredevil, and do you play it often?

Although I’m still really rusty, and not really at my prime anymore due to my extensive break from this game, I don’t really face too many problems when fighting Daredevils.

Feel free to share your thoughts, New gens, and Vets.

I liked my build before HoT better, but that was before they nerfed condi clear, removed the precision to vitality trait, jumbled the rest of the traits into terrible places and finally removed guard stacks from wvw. After that pile of nerfs daredevil became the better option the second HoT hit stores. With all the new reveals dumped on top of the nerfs to baseline endurance, the added mobility of daredevil tops anything on base class now. But like I said, if I could choose between my build today and my build 8 months ago, my old build would win hands down.

I miss my 70/14 point 5 traitline choices. :C Who here remembers 25/30/0/0/15 or better yet who here remembers 30/30/0/10/0? I’m sure a lotta people remember 10/30/0/0/30, or the 10/0/0/30/30. :c rip…

Warhawk.7095:

I liked my build before HoT better, but that was before they nerfed condi clear, removed the precision to vitality trait, jumbled the rest of the traits into terrible places and finally removed guard stacks from wvw. After that pile of nerfs daredevil became the better option the second HoT hit stores. With all the new reveals dumped on top of the nerfs to baseline endurance, the added mobility of daredevil tops anything on base class now. But like I said, if I could choose between my build today and my build 8 months ago, my old build would win hands down.

Yes I must agree. Although it wasn’t a direct nerf to Thieves, Indirectly they nerfed our HP pool Gain, by removing Guard stacks. Which to this day still don’t really know why. Does anyone know why? I don’t really understand why the majority of all classes have a reveal debuff either. My build 2 years 8months to 2 years ago still works pretty well with no complaints from me. “lightning Blade”. But I guess i am just used to playing the High risk/Reward spec.

I still stick close to my Core Thief.

AikijinX.6258:

Warhawk.7095:

I liked my build before HoT better, but that was before they nerfed condi clear, removed the precision to vitality trait, jumbled the rest of the traits into terrible places and finally removed guard stacks from wvw. After that pile of nerfs daredevil became the better option the second HoT hit stores. With all the new reveals dumped on top of the nerfs to baseline endurance, the added mobility of daredevil tops anything on base class now. But like I said, if I could choose between my build today and my build 8 months ago, my old build would win hands down.

Yes I must agree. Although it wasn’t a direct nerf to Thieves, Indirectly they nerfed our HP pool Gain, by removing Guard stacks. Which to this day still don’t really know why. Does anyone know why? I don’t really understand why the majority of all classes have a reveal debuff either. My build 2 years 8months to 2 years ago still works pretty well with no complaints from me. “lightning Blade”. But I guess i am just used to playing the High risk/Reward spec.

I still stick close to my Core Thief.

This is the build I had ~8 months ago pre nerfs. Your standard 0/30/30/10/0 (but experimenting with exuberance runes and crafted furious maint. oils) Here is a screenshot of the stats with full stacks in wvw (those sigil stacks are power).

Just look at that power, the precision, and the crit without fury/might or anything. And my HP pool =[

I had developed a really successful “vitaility cannon” concept with reduced stealth CD’s, tons of damage, and staying power to chew up zerg back lines without having to retreat as much so the enemy would be more constantly pressured.

I don’t mind sharing the build now since it has been obliterated, and i run something entirely different now >.<

Die hard vanilla dp here:
- i don’t like daredevil at all, it is just acro remake, i am not fan of evade builds, i prefer versatile dp build
- ironically on dp i had easier times killing DD than on any other class

As a thief who has mained every set on thief (besides pd and sp) at one point or another and chose s/d as their favorite: I don’t like daredevil. Imo it became way too forgiving and created a ton of awful gimmicks that should never have been there. Plus they tore apart a perfectly good traitline just to resell it as an espec. I honestly would like to see them delete daredevil and work in some of it’s big defensive abilities (EA really is the only thing I want out of it) and give it to us on our old acro line.

Due to the modded dodges, those that use anything other than unhindered combatant basically just become mega spam builds that are neither fun to play nor to fight. So while it gave us some nice ideas it also gave us a ton of things that just created dumb gameplay.

Dash is a ton of fun.

but I recall being able to take both leeching venoms and regen on stealth (and venomous aura) for a gimmicky healing build. Now I can only take one of the two, and that’s sad.

but yeah, Dash. Should be baseline for thief. It makes thief feel so much…more…thiefy. So yes, I love Daredevil. but ONLY for Dash.

I think HoT kinda made it where you have to play DD, if you don’t have the new dodges you lack a lot of utility. Honestly feels a lot less skill based

I dislike the entire concept and hate its implementation even more.

Daredevil play is spammy and gimmicky, and took away a lot of the skill associated with playing an Acrobatics build while providing what are objectively sheer numbers bumps and peak-performing utility. When playing Daredevil, I feel like my choice of best-move is almost pre-defined more by what’s on cooldown rather than what’s actually going on, and I feel like my opponents cannot be rewarded for skillful play by baiting dodges and playing mind games against me; the sense of “out-smarting” my enemy is completely gone with gimmicky evasion-spam or simply straight up more powerful abilities and mechanics. The tempo of Acrobatics is gone, and the class has turned from quick-decision-making into what I feel is largely just APM/spam which a lot could just be macro’ed, really inhibiting my enjoyment of the specialization and seemingly a design counter-intuitive to the core thief entirely, and as such functioning as a straight upgrade in power at the detriment of making the class require more complex thought and resource management.

Daredevil in essence feels lower-risk : higher-reward than core thief.

That said, all of the elite specializations feel wildly overpowered at the moment and I believe are objectively superior versions of their corresponding core trait lines except for power-built reaper.

Warhawk.7095:

I liked my build before HoT better, but that was before they nerfed condi clear, removed the precision to vitality trait, jumbled the rest of the traits into terrible places and finally removed guard stacks from wvw. After that pile of nerfs daredevil became the better option the second HoT hit stores. With all the new reveals dumped on top of the nerfs to baseline endurance, the added mobility of daredevil tops anything on base class now. But like I said, if I could choose between my build today and my build 8 months ago, my old build would win hands down.

So much this. I hope things get better in 2016. No actions since the June 23rd patch last year have I felt this game going in the right direction. Plus the lack of developer communication is infuriating.

Nice thanks guys for the feedback!

There are still old names that I still hope to see in this feedback. But all of your points are on point and I agree with you all. I just feel as though DD needs a complete rework. The effort and time it takes to copy and brainstorm off an existing traitline (Acro) isn’t very thoughtful at all, and stripping our traits down so that our “might” gain, 1500 steal range, HP conversion (Practiced tolerance), Etc, isn’t very thoughtful at all either. I could go on and on, Thief is the only class I have and bothered to make, in my 3 years of playing this game for 5.5k hours alone. There are still core Thief issues that need to be addressed. The communication from Arena’s team has slowed down concerning Thief forums.

- Although I’ll still play this game regardless, I am very concerned about the future of our place in this game. We are slowly but surly losing our roles, because other classes can simply do it better than us:
-i.e: Scrappers stealth is pretty much a moving shadow refuge.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I actually prefer DD, gives the survivability to a full glass thief with dodges. Also pulmonary impact makes headshot even more important than before to master correctly.

Playing sword/dagger crit strikes thief for 2 years now(I remember you playing sword/dagger too). I dumped acro for DD since it is better at everything. You get more condi cleanse,more dodges, meaning more evade, a bit of dmg reduction. I was forced going into marauder gear since they removed guard stacks. and I still enjoy playing as sword/dagger crit strikes thief it owns man

DD is better than core Thief in almost every conceivable way.

rennlc.7346:

DD is better than core Thief in almost every conceivable way.

So a skilled DD and a Skilled Core Thief duel, Mirror builds. Who would win, and why?

AikijinX.6258:

rennlc.7346:

DD is better than core Thief in almost every conceivable way.

So a skilled DD and a Skilled Core Thief duel, Mirror builds. Who would win, and why?

I’m confused. If one Thief is DD and the other is using a core build, their builds would not be mirror. If you’re asking who generally wins in a 1v1 between a meta DD build and a pre-HoT meta Thief build, the DD would usually win because, among other reasons, the damage modifiers in DD are better than the ones in CS and Bound is just that good whether it’s used for its damage or for additional, uninterruptable stealth.

I believe the DD wins, all things being equal.

That said, I still think D/P is superior to any other option, thief vs thief, so if you’re coming up against staff, s/p, s/d who do not off-set D/P that’s a major factor in victory.

DD DP wins vs CS DP (assuming DA/Tr/X build) if equal skill, just due to the battle of cooldowns/resources and the edge DD gets by packing Pulmonary Impact, Bound, and Bandits Defense.

DD adds greatly to Thief builds. It is one of my favorite trait lines. It well designed offering valid options to every weaponset. Too many are fixated on their single favorite build from thepast which was leading to “Must play d/p and nothing else”.

In spite of some who do not think a thief should be able to defend themself or use the tools that are given to do so, it makes other condition builds other then p/d and its stealth and fire work. Unlike some who thing smoke field then a heartseeker through it to stealth as the height of “skilled gameplay” just because it takes a few buttons DD gives ways to play both with and without stealth.

DD in no way shape or form made the thief “worse”. The issue is with the nature of the enhancements made to other classes realtive to the thief. The measure of its success is not the few faces of people who refer to themselves as the old guard that hate it , but the number of thieves that are in game that use it and there a whole pile of those.

This hardly means “thief” in a great place but the issue not DD.

As example the fact Engineers have sneak Gyro has NOTHING to do with DD.

rennlc.7346:

AikijinX.6258:

rennlc.7346:

DD is better than core Thief in almost every conceivable way.

So a skilled DD and a Skilled Core Thief duel, Mirror builds. Who would win, and why?

I’m confused. If one Thief is DD and the other is using a core build, their builds would not be mirror. If you’re asking who generally wins in a 1v1 between a meta DD build and a pre-HoT meta Thief build, the DD would usually win because, among other reasons, the damage modifiers in DD are better than the ones in CS and Bound is just that good whether it’s used for its damage or for additional, uninterruptable stealth.

Apologies, Mirror in the sense armor, weapon, sigils, trinkets were all the same. But yes of course one would be DD and other would be Core Thief.

Woaden.9425:

I believe the DD wins, all things being equal.

That said, I still think D/P is superior to any other option, thief vs thief, so if you’re coming up against staff, s/p, s/d who do not off-set D/P that’s a major factor in victory.

DD DP wins vs CS DP (assuming DA/Tr/X build) if equal skill, just due to the battle of cooldowns/resources and the edge DD gets by packing Pulmonary Impact, Bound, and Bandits Defense.

And where would S/D lye? Nice hearing from you Kole. Been a while.

AikijinX.6258:

-How do you feel Thief matches up to Daredevil?

Daredevil is a testament to ArenaNet’s hypocrisy. They first gutted Acrobatics based on the reason that Thief evades too much only to give us Staff Daredevil who can dodge/evade 24/7. The extra dodge bar beats Core Thief hands down. I can’t even see myself playing my Thief without the extra bar…that’s how inferior the Core currently is to me.

I’ve seen many Core D/P in unranked who tries to make it work only to be outplayed by a DD because they can break from BV and counter attack with Bandit’s Defense, which is at a lower CD than BV. DD has better mobility than Core since DD can have swiftness 24/7 (Dash+Acro) while Core lost the pre-HoT Feline Grace. Staff skill #5, Vault, deals more damage than Backstab which is both an evade and an AoE without the stealth requirement. Some evidence also shows that Staff’s AA is better than Dagger AA…and the list goes on.

How do you like Daredevil, and do you play it often?

I play DD for the reasons I said above, but I don’t like it one bit only because now there are two mandatory trait lines (DD, Trick) and only leaves one line for something else. The choice between DA, CS, and Acro has not been easy since I personally need both CS and Acro so my choice becomes between DD and Trick and obviously DD wins because of the extra dodge. But it’s not a choice without regret since Trick increases initiative pool, initiative on steal and lowers steal CD that my build also benefits from.

I don’t play Core build anymore and I worry of what kind of future Elite spec can come after DD seeing that the extra dodge is something that the Thief needs regardless of the Elite spec. I think that if ArenaNet make the extra dodge a Thief’s innate ability that players will never play DD unless they want to use Staff and I would be one of those players who won’t be playing DD.

babazhook.6805:

DD adds greatly to Thief builds. It is one of my favorite trait lines. It well designed offering valid options to every weaponset. Too many are fixated on their single favorite build from thepast which was leading to “Must play d/p and nothing else”.

In spite of some who do not think a thief should be able to defend themself or use the tools that are given to do so, it makes other condition builds other then p/d and its stealth and fire work. Unlike some who thing smoke field then a heartseeker through it to stealth as the height of “skilled gameplay” just because it takes a few buttons DD gives ways to play both with and without stealth.

DD in no way shape or form made the thief “worse”. The issue is with the nature of the enhancements made to other classes realtive to the thief. The measure of its success is not the few faces of people who refer to themselves as the old guard that hate it , but the number of thieves that are in game that use it and there a whole pile of those.

This hardly means “thief” in a great place but the issue not DD.

As example the fact Engineers have sneak Gyro has NOTHING to do with DD.

Thank you for your excellent feedback nice hearing from you again after a while.

I agree Thief is still not in a great place, and thats due to unfixed core issues. Now as DD comes along the developers sweep all those issues under the rug and hope DD blankets and dazes everyone’s eyes from the “slightly” wider range of Thief mechanics and builds. And in time hopefully everyone will forget and will be so content with DD that there will be little to no complaints about Core Thief.

As I can agree that DD relative to other class specializations is at the bottom of the barrel, with probably the least amount of time put in trying to develop “New Mechanics” (Recycled Acro-like traits), I still wont shy away from the fact that core Thief had and still have unaddressed issues.

And for the scrappers, with their sneak gyro, No that in no way effects a DD in the slightest, but line them up now to a Core Thief in which we specialize in Stealth, Agility, Shadowstepping, “Evasion”. You’ll be pretty uphappy about the scrapper’s ability to practically walking mass invis indefinitely. (I know it’s not indefinitely, but just needed to emphasize the point.). EDIT: I mean for goodness sake we use Shadow refuge which leaves the biggest indication of where anyone is. It’s Aoe Food. But a scrapper can go invis with out any telegraph indication. Generally you know where a scrapper is because of the gyro, but the point is, (Sitting ducks, vs Flying Geese) -Stagnant Shadow refuge vs mobile Sneak gyro.

We Get Stealth Debuffed by almost everyclass
We can be outstealthed (When not using D/P)
Our shadowstep ability can be done better by a Rev
Our might gain was stripped
Traits were switched around which killed Dagger/Dagger builds.. The list goes on..

Sir Vincent III.1286:

AikijinX.6258:

-How do you feel Thief matches up to Daredevil?

Daredevil is a testament to ArenaNet’s hypocrisy. They first gutted Acrobatics based on the reason that Thief evades too much only to give us Staff Daredevil who can dodge/evade 24/7. The extra dodge bar beats Core Thief hands down. I can’t even see myself playing my Thief without the extra bar…that’s how inferior the Core currently is to me.

I’ve seen many Core D/P in unranked who tries to make it work only to be outplayed by a DD because they can break from BV and counter attack with Bandit’s Defense, which is at a lower CD than BV. DD has better mobility than Core since DD can have swiftness 24/7 (Dash+Acro) while Core lost the pre-HoT Feline Grace. Staff skill #5, Vault, deals more damage than Backstab which is both an evade and an AoE without the stealth requirement. Some evidence also shows that Staff’s AA is better than Dagger AA…and the list goes on.

How do you like Daredevil, and do you play it often?

I play DD for the reasons I said above, but I don’t like it one bit only because now there are two mandatory trait lines (DD, Trick) and only leaves one line for something else. The choice between DA, CS, and Acro has not been easy since I personally need both CS and Acro so my choice becomes between DD and Trick and obviously DD wins because of the extra dodge. But it’s not a choice without regret since Trick increases initiative pool, initiative on steal and lowers steal CD that my build also benefits from.

I don’t play Core build anymore and I worry of what kind of future Elite spec can come after DD seeing that the extra dodge is something that the Thief needs regardless of the Elite spec. I think that if ArenaNet make the extra dodge a Thief’s innate ability that players will never play DD unless they want to use Staff and I would be one of those players who won’t be playing DD.

So thieves are forced into a mandatory Trickery, and Daredevil right off the bat. I agree with you, I feel as though 3 evasion bars should be innate, but I also believe if we wanted to increase abit more build variety, shy down on the mandatory trait lines like trickery. We should have the extra 3 or 5 initiative that trickery offers innately. That way we actually can choose freely with out having to worry about the small initiative pool.

I also feel as though the the trait rework has to revert back to how it was before. A player shouldn’t be locked to just 1 trait tree each. Where’s the diversity in that?

Edit: It copied the whole page o.O
Thief

In the recent history of thieves, their damage roles have been largely burst-based due to initiative, while their autoattacks do little to sustain their DPS. In addition, initiative often needs to be used defensively, which can take a toll on overall damage output. Our design for this profession tends to lean toward damage, mobility, and evasiveness. In the first quarter of this year, we’ll be looking to drastically improve thief melee autoattacks until their overall sustained damage when coupled with initiative use is extremely dangerous. In addition to the damage improvements, we’ve done a bit of reworking and improvements to the Acrobatics specialization line.

Time to quote this til kingdom come…

I’m just gonna state a bunch of stuff it won’t be grammatically correct.

I like daredevil, but only because it fixes some of the core issues thiefs had before HOT. of course that is one of the problems with DD, it’s not accounting for the power creep the other professions received from HOT.

the only thing required to kill dare devils is timing. and since your using a full yolo build it wont take long before you get that back. the whole spec was “Cheaply done” though, pretty much every dd trait would fit into the acro line. and the ones remaining are just underwhelming copies of other traits.

s/d is pretty much dead honestly. your better of using it as a ultility set then anything else. If your still using s/d (I won’t give in!) you have to give up some ultilies to try and make up for the lack of damage and Slow IAS which is the only reason why i’m using impairing daggers.

The trait change hurt thieves, i don’t know to many thieves that went 3 lines, the majority always seemed to go 4.

The Majority of thieves (In PVP) are running DD/Trick and DA i prefer CS over DA but again i was running sword so i needed more damage over time instead of burst at 50%.

I don’t play this game as much as i used to. ill play a few games then take a break for a couple of days. the problem is other classes (besides thiefs) are boring to fight. and the majority of the fights they are being carried by passives.

Welcome back though!

AikijinX.6258:

Woaden.9425:

I believe the DD wins, all things being equal.

That said, I still think D/P is superior to any other option, thief vs thief, so if you’re coming up against staff, s/p, s/d who do not off-set D/P that’s a major factor in victory.

DD DP wins vs CS DP (assuming DA/Tr/X build) if equal skill, just due to the battle of cooldowns/resources and the edge DD gets by packing Pulmonary Impact, Bound, and Bandits Defense.

And where would S/D lye? Nice hearing from you Kole. Been a while.

Hi! Good to see you back, I’m dipping my toe in the waters as well. This recent balance patch announcement has me fairly excited.

To answer your question: I think, since S/D depends so much on landing high crit damage from Flanking Strike a CS/DA/Tr build could complete with a DD/DA/Tr build head to head. Sure you’re losing out on straight damage modifiers (so many staff DD love to go Havok Master/Staff Master/Bound, for 27% flat damage increase), but with CS, Flawless Strike is giving you 7% crit damage, practice tolerance is probably giving you ~13% crit damage, and No Quarter is probably adding ~15%, so that actually edges out the modifiers from DD, but it has a lot of caveats attached.

In such a match-up, I still think you’d have to outplay the opponent just because they have more endurance and an extra dodge, all else being equal, and their damage isn’t all that far off.

That said, I think the ‘vault burst’ has so many counters, especially the fact that the second half of the animation isn’t an evade (allowing you to just land a free FS) that Staff is at a major disadvantage vs any thief that can burst.

AikijinX.6258:

So thieves are forced into a mandatory Trickery, and Daredevil right off the bat. I agree with you, I feel as though 3 evasion bars should be innate, but I also believe if we wanted to increase abit more build variety, shy down on the mandatory trait lines like trickery. We should have the extra 3 or 5 initiative that trickery offers innately. That way we actually can choose freely with out having to worry about the small initiative pool.

There were plenty of discussion about these issues where a lot of things should be base line or innate to Thief. We’re still not sure if the Dev is on the same page seeing that they all went radio silent on us.

I also feel as though the the trait rework has to revert back to how it was before. A player shouldn’t be locked to just 1 trait tree each. Where’s the diversity in that?

The initial idea was that the Elite trait is not something mandatory and can be interchanged with other future Elite traits. However, that goal was lost when they factored in revenues that if the Elite trait is not enough to attract current players, they may not see a huge expansion sale. So in order to make DD more attractive to Thieves is to gut the Core traits and put it into DD.

With the original Feline Grace, Thief practically already have 3 dodges but now Thief can only get it back when the player purchase HoT and use DD. Rather than giving the extra dodge bar to the Thief as a way to improve its survivability in the Core level, they instead gated that survivability behind kitten paywall. Others may argue that this is not the case but it’s plainly obvious to those who enjoyed the original Feline Grace that the Acro was gutted in favor of DD. This, I believe, is where things gets messy.

Now they face a challenge on what would be the next Elite trait for Thief without actually breaking the profession beyond recognition. There is no Thief in DD – what I see is an agile Warrior. DD has no connection to shadowstep, steal (ex. Endurance Thief), and stealth which are the core abilities of Thief which effectively narrowed the options on what build to use. You can practically put DD in Warrior and it will still work.

Many traits in DD should have been in Acro, but ArenaNet has to change the “rule” so there are only 3 choices per tier just so they can justify why these traits were moved into DD. Driven Fortitude, Escapist Absolution and Endurance Thief have Acrobatics written all over them. Havok Mastery and Impacting Disruption could have gone to DA. Weakening Strike could have gone to CS and the extra dodge as innate to Thief. If that would have been the case, Thief would have been a great profession with a lot of build diversity.

Dash should have been baseline.

Other than that, I consider it a bandaid fix for acrobatics disguised as an upgrade.

That, however, doesn’t mean it isnt good. you can do without it, is all.

AikijinX.6258:

Warhawk.7095:

I liked my build before HoT better, but that was before they nerfed condi clear, removed the precision to vitality trait, jumbled the rest of the traits into terrible places and finally removed guard stacks from wvw. After that pile of nerfs daredevil became the better option the second HoT hit stores. With all the new reveals dumped on top of the nerfs to baseline endurance, the added mobility of daredevil tops anything on base class now. But like I said, if I could choose between my build today and my build 8 months ago, my old build would win hands down.

Yes I must agree. Although it wasn’t a direct nerf to Thieves, Indirectly they nerfed our HP pool Gain, by removing Guard stacks. Which to this day still don’t really know why. Does anyone know why? I don’t really understand why the majority of all classes have a reveal debuff either. My build 2 years 8months to 2 years ago still works pretty well with no complaints from me. “lightning Blade”. But I guess i am just used to playing the High risk/Reward spec.

I still stick close to my Core Thief.

I believe the reason for removing guard stacks was that it gave quite an advantage vs those with no stacks due to the time investment required to obtain the ranks.

Cynz.9437:

Die hard vanilla dp here:
- i don’t like daredevil at all, it is just acro remake, i am not fan of evade builds, i prefer versatile dp build
- ironically on dp i had easier times killing DD than on any other class

I don’t have problems with DDs but with vault. Mostly I play squishies, ele or thief sometimes, 1 vault that hits me is enough to down me from full HP. At least with ele I can put up some aoe pressure on the thief but when I play thief, it’s pretty bad (I admit I am really rusty with thief these days). So I evade (S/D) or dodge vaults, then I am out of dodges and ini, and eat one vault.

To the OP, I dislike DD is basically acro 2.0 and the class haven’t really get anything new. The traits itself don’t add much to my gameplay. Dashes are great when moving around the map, running away and sometime during combat, but often in combat I need to dodge and not dash away.

I miss quaggan tonics.

-Babylon

Ismael.6074:

I miss quaggan tonics.

-Babylon

Nice to see you again Babylonian ^^. Yeah you and that Overpowered exploited condi build of yours haha. 1 of a kind.

To All: I was actually unaware that there was going to be a balance patch preview. So i guess i made this thread in good timing. In terms of what the profession balance specifies for Thief. It seems like some good will come out of it. There will be classes that get tuned down, and others that will get slight tune ups. I really don’t like to say the word Buff’s anymore, because Buffs given to a Thief means every other class is unhappy, and a Nerf will be up and coming afterwards. It said Thief will get an enhancement in their Autoattack damage. All I can think about really is for PvP meta if not already (Since I’ve been away for so long): S/D or D/P : Pack Runes, and Flanking strikes for quickness proc instead of Thrill of the crime. If AA will be getting such a “drastic” improvement to it’s damage for Thief, then I can understand why one would go for DD/Trick/DA. Burn their HP down quick, with fast AA, on top of lightning or flame blasts(or both), on top of the havok master trait, and pulmonary impact interrupt trait.

Fast hard hitting attacks was my “lightning blade” build back in the day, all i can think of is that now.

Any thoughts?

And I really enjoyed reading everyone’s feedback and their opinions. I appreciate the discussion.

AikijinX.6258:

Ismael.6074:

I miss quaggan tonics.

-Babylon

Nice to see you again Babylonian ^^. Yeah you and that Overpowered exploited condi build of yours haha. 1 of a kind.

To All: I was actually unaware that there was going to be a balance patch preview. So i guess i made this thread in good timing. In terms of what the profession balance specifies for Thief. It seems like some good will come out of it. There will be classes that get tuned down, and others that will get slight tune ups. I really don’t like to say the word Buff’s anymore, because Buffs given to a Thief means every other class is unhappy, and a Nerf will be up and coming afterwards. It said Thief will get an enhancement in their Autoattack damage. All I can think about really is for PvP meta if not already (Since I’ve been away for so long): S/D or D/P : Pack Runes, and Flanking strikes for quickness proc instead of Thrill of the crime. If AA will be getting such a “drastic” improvement to it’s damage for Thief, then I can understand why one would go for DD/Trick/DA. Burn their HP down quick, with fast AA, on top of lightning or flame blasts(or both), on top of the havok master trait, and pulmonary impact interrupt trait.

Fast hard hitting attacks was my “lightning blade” build back in the day, all i can think of is that now.

Any thoughts?

And I really enjoyed reading everyone’s feedback and their opinions. I appreciate the discussion.

Consider Runes of evasion. With a higher number of dodges you get can on demand swiftness and fury in your build which is more reliable then Pack (where you have to be hit to trigger the same) and if you have bounding dodger in the build will apply some small bit of damage (which can crit) along with a cripple.

There is an ICD but if you are in and out a lot with your combat style the shorter durations of fury/swiftness as compared to that from pack might be more suitable.

For your sigils. I currently tinker with an S/d build that has a pile of interrupts via SOH and distracting daggers along with the impact strike elite. I much prefer sigil of draining to air/fire. I am not sure if you speak to PvP and if it available there but It has no ICD and is one hundred percent reliable on an interrupt stealing life and doing 1k+ damage.

If you are using Mug and SOH and get that interrupt you can burst the mug , the pi and the sigil draining damage all at once and add about 1k to the Mug heal. You can get over 7k damage this way without a crit.

babazhook.6805:

AikijinX.6258:

Ismael.6074:

I miss quaggan tonics.

-Babylon

Nice to see you again Babylonian ^^. Yeah you and that Overpowered exploited condi build of yours haha. 1 of a kind.

To All: I was actually unaware that there was going to be a balance patch preview. So i guess i made this thread in good timing. In terms of what the profession balance specifies for Thief. It seems like some good will come out of it. There will be classes that get tuned down, and others that will get slight tune ups. I really don’t like to say the word Buff’s anymore, because Buffs given to a Thief means every other class is unhappy, and a Nerf will be up and coming afterwards. It said Thief will get an enhancement in their Autoattack damage. All I can think about really is for PvP meta if not already (Since I’ve been away for so long): S/D or D/P : Pack Runes, and Flanking strikes for quickness proc instead of Thrill of the crime. If AA will be getting such a “drastic” improvement to it’s damage for Thief, then I can understand why one would go for DD/Trick/DA. Burn their HP down quick, with fast AA, on top of lightning or flame blasts(or both), on top of the havok master trait, and pulmonary impact interrupt trait.

Fast hard hitting attacks was my “lightning blade” build back in the day, all i can think of is that now.

Any thoughts?

And I really enjoyed reading everyone’s feedback and their opinions. I appreciate the discussion.

Consider Runes of evasion. With a higher number of dodges you get can on demand swiftness and fury in your build which is more reliable then Pack (where you have to be hit to trigger the same) and if you have bounding dodger in the build will apply some small bit of damage (which can crit) along with a cripple.

There is an ICD but if you are in and out a lot with your combat style the shorter durations of fury/swiftness as compared to that from pack might be more suitable.

For your sigils. I currently tinker with an S/d build that has a pile of interrupts via SOH and distracting daggers along with the impact strike elite. I much prefer sigil of draining to air/fire. I am not sure if you speak to PvP and if it available there but It has no ICD and is one hundred percent reliable on an interrupt stealing life and doing 1k+ damage.

If you are using Mug and SOH and get that interrupt you can burst the mug , the pi and the sigil draining damage all at once and add about 1k to the Mug heal. You can get over 7k damage this way without a crit.

Unfortunately i’m not that into pve at ALL. I’m still mastery level 2. Only for the glider accessibility. But I guess it’s a PvE world now a days. Can’t get anything (New sigils runes, etc) with out participating. Which is kind of disheartening.

Yeah i always liked Pack runes, due to the fact that it’s my own personal “thrill of the crime”, This way i am able to use Flanking strikes, and make use of the 7s quickness proc. I’ve always been the fast and hard damage while remaining untouchable due to the evasions and CnD’s. Pack runes just fit my style (For PvP), for WvW I just use Travelers.

Vanilla P/D D/P hybrid here.

I’ve dueled a lot of daredevil thieves since the release of HoT and it really depends on the skill level of the player and the player’s set up if I lose 1v1 to them or not.

Since alittle more than half my DPS comes from condition damage, a good daredevil thief with escapist’s absolution is rather difficult to fight. Also, I do have some difficulty fighting good staff power thieves running escapist’s absolution. My bursts just sort of either get evaded or cleanse very quickly once they land.

Other than that, unless they are a complete troll build like full trailblazer’s perplex DD SA ACRO, I do alright vs the majority of daredevil thieves.

I’ve been thiefing since game launch in all game modes and to be honest, daredevil feels underwhelming when compared to the buff some of the other professions got (chrono and reaper for example).

Speaking from mostly pvp/wvw experience:

Daredevil just feels a little clunky compared to the smooth as butter old school thief, and I don’t like that you need to take these fancy new dodges as grandmaster traits just to be able to have 3 dodge rolls (which is really nice).

The burst however is real. Especially with d/p, the bound grandmaster trait, and daredevil runes. You hit like a truck, bound alone can hit for 5k (and then stealth you out of a smoke field).

Honestly, when compared to standard thief, DD is “probably” better, but it is definitely not the same difference as comparing standard mesmer to chrono or necro to reaper…

the sober ninja.6539:

Daredevil just feels a little clunky compared to the smooth as butter old school thief, and I don’t like that you need to take these fancy new dodges as grandmaster traits just to be able to have 3 dodge rolls (which is really nice).

Funny you mention this. One of my guild members actually doesn’t slot the GM traits because he thinks the revealing nature of Bound and the over-shooting potential on Dash lead to excessive clunkiness in combat. I love Dash, but dislike overall the style of play DD brings with it, so I continue to run core thief.

DeceiverX.8361:

the sober ninja.6539:

Daredevil just feels a little clunky compared to the smooth as butter old school thief, and I don’t like that you need to take these fancy new dodges as grandmaster traits just to be able to have 3 dodge rolls (which is really nice).

Funny you mention this. One of my guild members actually doesn’t slot the GM traits because he thinks the revealing nature of Bound and the over-shooting potential on Dash lead to excessive clunkiness in combat. I love Dash, but dislike overall the style of play DD brings with it, so I continue to run core thief.

I just believe core Thief has alot more damage potential to offer.

AikijinX.6258:

DeceiverX.8361:

the sober ninja.6539:

Daredevil just feels a little clunky compared to the smooth as butter old school thief, and I don’t like that you need to take these fancy new dodges as grandmaster traits just to be able to have 3 dodge rolls (which is really nice).

Funny you mention this. One of my guild members actually doesn’t slot the GM traits because he thinks the revealing nature of Bound and the over-shooting potential on Dash lead to excessive clunkiness in combat. I love Dash, but dislike overall the style of play DD brings with it, so I continue to run core thief.

I just believe core Thief has alot more damage potential to offer.

Well, yes and no. If you’re not going to use Staff (and Staff Mastery) or Physical Skills, then yes, it would be better to take all Core traits.

So, here’s my 2 copper. I’ve played the game since beta and switched to thief after about a year. About 43% of my PvP games have been played on Thief and while I love PvP, I’m not much of a fan of WvW, so I’ve never messed with that much.

Once HoT came out, I stopped playing thief as much, largely because 1) Thief is in a bad spot for PvE and 2) I’m not a big fan of the Daredevil mechanics, so PvP hasn’t been as appealing either.

I really wanted to love Daredevil, but the staff animations just seem ridiculous and the dodges don’t feel right either. However, I did pick up my thief with the DD variant of D/P for some PvP the other night and found that it’s in a lot better place than a lot of people like to make it out to be.

In PvP, I’ve predominantly played D/P builds and the Daredevil variant seems to work just fine. I never liked Bound, but Dash fits in pretty well with the build. Pre-HoT, I ran DA/SA/TR, so I wasn’t generally a CS fan like the OP, but I found that DD is good enough to merit dropping SA.

It’s definitely a bit of a dps loss from CS, but I still think DD is worth taking over it. Havoc Mastery keeps the dps loss. Impacting Disruption is another good source of damage, particularly since Headshot seems to be more valuable in this meta than in the past. Considering also the gain of:

• Swiftness on dodge
• Longer range dodges
• Soft CC cleanse on dodge
• Sustain from extra dodge and dodge traits
• Access to Impact Strike

Does core thief have more damage potential? Sure…but extra damage isn’t always worth it. It’s the same reason why you take Marauder amulet over Berserker’s.

Anyways, the elite spec overall is too clunky for me and considering that choosing to run without DD just seems like a handicap, I don’t see myself returning to this class as my main. However, at least with dash and the current meta D/P build, it’s enjoyable enough to return to in PvP to some extent.

Dahkeus.8243:

So, here’s my 2 copper. I’ve played the game since beta and switched to thief after about a year. About 43% of my PvP games have been played on Thief and while I love PvP, I’m not much of a fan of WvW, so I’ve never messed with that much.

Once HoT came out, I stopped playing thief as much, largely because 1) Thief is in a bad spot for PvE and 2) I’m not a big fan of the Daredevil mechanics, so PvP hasn’t been as appealing either.

I really wanted to love Daredevil, but the staff animations just seem ridiculous and the dodges don’t feel right either. However, I did pick up my thief with the DD variant of D/P for some PvP the other night and found that it’s in a lot better place than a lot of people like to make it out to be.

In PvP, I’ve predominantly played D/P builds and the Daredevil variant seems to work just fine. I never liked Bound, but Dash fits in pretty well with the build. Pre-HoT, I ran DA/SA/TR, so I wasn’t generally a CS fan like the OP, but I found that DD is good enough to merit dropping SA.

It’s definitely a bit of a dps loss from CS, but I still think DD is worth taking over it. Havoc Mastery keeps the dps loss. Impacting Disruption is another good source of damage, particularly since Headshot seems to be more valuable in this meta than in the past. Considering also the gain of:

• Swiftness on dodge
• Longer range dodges
• Soft CC cleanse on dodge
• Sustain from extra dodge and dodge traits
• Access to Impact Strike

Does core thief have more damage potential? Sure…but extra damage isn’t always worth it. It’s the same reason why you take Marauder amulet over Berserker’s.

Anyways, the elite spec overall is too clunky for me and considering that choosing to run without DD just seems like a handicap, I don’t see myself returning to this class as my main. However, at least with dash and the current meta D/P build, it’s enjoyable enough to return to in PvP to some extent.

Thank you for your indepth feedback

Like many I have thousands of hours playing the thief pre-HoT. I loved D/D, P/P and S/P the best at various stages. I thought D/P while efficient was cheap as hell for the longest time. The Dare Devil variant now has a variety of non-stealth options available to them. Once upon a time Shadow Arts was near mandatory but now with the high evasion and speed up times stealth is very optional.

That said, I think the Dare Devil line is basically Acrobatics on steroids. I love the line and find the melee thief more fun to play. It has a ton of mobility, solid DPS traits and perma-speed or big bonuses to damage/condi.

I am not sure I will ever fully forgive ANet for killing off P/P when they nuked Ricochet since that was the funnest build I have played but my Staff Dare Devil is pretty close. I think Dare Devil actually made S/P more powerful. Had the other classes not gotten absurd sustain with medium to high AoE at the same time, the thief would be sitting in a decent place.

So, I think you bring up a good point about D/P, but I think that it’s been a while since it was a cheap, stealth-heavy weaponset and I think that was more of an issue in WvW. The SA traits in the past made this a set that could easily just abuse stealth so much that you didn’t have much reason to use it for anything else.

However, I think it’s evolved to be a more well-rounded weaponset. You can still play it to stealth for burst, escape, etc. However, you can also use it as a non-stealth dps weapon by relying on blinds for defense or you can use it as a shut down weapon in a 2 v 1 to keep an enemy locked down.

And totally agreed that P/P was mangled so hard. I mean, it was never a great weapon, but it was decent in the right area and it was at least viable enough to justify how fun it is to run around like a gunslinger, lol.

If you have not looked at the stream notes on Thief, have a look now. Our time has come to rise again. Do not fret. ANET is going in the right direction right now on the basis for thieves.

Yea, the next meta is definitely poised to be good for thieves. Hell, even if they did nothing beyond the sigil/amulet changes, we would be boosted to a top meta spot. =P

AikijinX.6258:

DeceiverX.8361:

the sober ninja.6539:

Daredevil just feels a little clunky compared to the smooth as butter old school thief, and I don’t like that you need to take these fancy new dodges as grandmaster traits just to be able to have 3 dodge rolls (which is really nice).

Funny you mention this. One of my guild members actually doesn’t slot the GM traits because he thinks the revealing nature of Bound and the over-shooting potential on Dash lead to excessive clunkiness in combat. I love Dash, but dislike overall the style of play DD brings with it, so I continue to run core thief.

I just believe core Thief has alot more damage potential to offer.

Only while not running staff. DD even out-damages Flawless + PT + NQ on crit strikes when staves are used, and if Flawless isn’t used, the margins are actually still quite small between Havoc Mastery and Bounding Dodge’s bonus damage, as Ferocity-based damage is less substantial than regular damage modifiers.

Dahkeus.8243:

Yea, the next meta is definitely poised to be good for thieves. Hell, even if they did nothing beyond the sigil/amulet changes, we would be boosted to a top meta spot. =P

I don’t really like to go to the forums to hate on other classes, or their builds…

But.

The celestial era has ceased, and I’m content. Cele Ele what? Cele Reve huh?

Daredevil is pretty much a must with current meta imo…

I do prefer the old thief to new thief but in todays meta you need that extra dodge and endurance to avoid damage…

Problem now is that we cant really kill things quickly and can still get bursted down in like 2 hits…

Auto immunities are #1 reason why old thief sucks now and why we need DD. Honestly, every other class just has a better risk/reward ratio than we do. Sure, we can kill noobs and people who have abilities on CD… We dont really compare to equally skilled players… Other classses offer so much more in a pvp match.