(edited by bhagwad.4281)
Allow Special Stealth Skills only in Combat?
Yes, several huge ones in fact. For example, when we do small scale GvGs or run dungeons if we have a thief he usually shadow refuges us before the fight begins to get the positional advantage or run past enemies we don’t want to fight, respectively (for dungeons this would for example be the huge room in CM right before the final boss with about 30 silver mob bandits).
This solution won’t work
Also thief vs thief duels would suck.
Yes, several huge ones in fact. For example, when we do small scale GvGs or run dungeons if we have a thief he usually shadow refuges us before the fight begins to get the positional advantage or run past enemies we don’t want to fight, respectively (for dungeons this would for example be the huge room in CM right before the final boss with about 30 silver mob bandits).
This solution won’t work
Also thief vs thief duels would suck.
No, when I say “stealth skills”, I don’t mean the ability to stealth, but rather the special skills that become available to a thief (the “1” ability) when he/she stealthed.
oh so you basically mean the thief can’t open with backstab or similar skills?
Cause it gimps a lot of thieves and still doesn’t solve the problem of instagibbing. Backstab is actually the third skill in the mug-cnd-bs-hs instagib combo…
oh so you basically mean the thief can’t open with backstab or similar skills?
Cause it gimps a lot of thieves and still doesn’t solve the problem of instagibbing. Backstab is actually the third skill in the mug-cnd-bs-hs instagib combo…
Good point. Nonetheless a regular BS out of combat can still take off 10k health (or more. I’ve seen 14k) essentially ending the fight right there if followed by a steal taking out another 7k. At least with the cnd+steal+bs combo the thief has to be visible at some point close in time so there’s a reasonable argument to be made that the person wasn’t keeping a close eye on things.
Attacking directly with a big hit out of stealth and out of combat doesn’t give you a chance to fight back. You’re essentially giving away a free 15k (BS+steal) hp before the fight even starts. You’re always on the defensive after that and all it takes will be one HS to land.
Like I said, most people don’t truly get irritated by stealth per se, but by the way large amounts of hp are given away before anything even happens.
(edited by bhagwad.4281)
Only if everyone elses attacks that have a damage coefficient of 2.4 or higher are also not allowed until people decide they are acceptable.
Not to mention it really wouldn’t change anything other than perhaps seeing more use of caltrops/choking gas from these mythical “perma-stealth” thieves that can start fights with out ever being seen.
A better suggestion would be to lower the percentage of power of said special stealth skills the more you use them in a single battle before you hit out of combat state. Meaning once = full power, 2nd time = 75% power, and 3rd time on is 50% power.
[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald
Only if everyone elses attacks that have a damage coefficient of 2.4 or higher are also not allowed until people decide they are acceptable.
Not to mention it really wouldn’t change anything other than perhaps seeing more use of caltrops/choking gas from these mythical “perma-stealth” thieves that can start fights with out ever being seen.
I don’t think anyone is grudging the thief a high burst. They just don’t like it when it happens for “free” out of initial stealth with no chance to react. Limiting stealth attack skills only when in combat will solve the problem without actually impacting any thief builds.
Maybe the only builds that will be affected will be those that rely on an “out of stealth initial burst” or instagib.
Do we want to cater to those people anyway?
Just one detail about the OP. if a thief is in stealth due to shadow refuge, If he steals he keeps his stealth but if he CnD it brakes stealth and triggers a 4 sec reveled so basically it is impossible to pull of a backstab after that CnD.
Nice try though it almost pased unnoticed.
Basically it comes down to people thinking thieves are able to realistically maintain stealth impermanently out of combat thus giving no possible way to allow people to know they are there, which is not true.
That thief shadow refuging is burning a 1 minute cooldown for 15 seconds of stealth at best with no guarantee they will meet anyone within those 15 seconds and no guarantee someone wont stroll past his little house and throw him out of it.
Any other time the thief is either burning up important cooldowns or is accepting they don’t have permanent stealth and thus engaging in fights with ways that allow people to potentially see them before hand.
Even if that thief gets lucky with the shadow refuge camping they’d only manage the 1 hit, backstab (not a full mug+cnd chain) which does very little damage by itself compared to other kill moves with the mug and cnd generally averaging more damage.
All the while all the other big single skill bursts hit far harder and can have the same situation by hiding in a corner somewhere that you won’t see them immediately or such rather than burning a utility and hoping you wander past.
Basically it comes down to people thinking thieves are able to realistically maintain stealth impermanently out of combat thus giving no possible way to allow people to know they are there, which is not true.
That thief shadow refuging is burning a 1 minute cooldown for 15 seconds of stealth at best with no guarantee they will meet anyone within those 15 seconds and no guarantee someone wont stroll past his little house and throw him out of it.
Any other time the thief is either burning up important cooldowns or is accepting they don’t have permanent stealth and thus engaging in fights with ways that allow people to potentially see them before hand.
Even if that thief gets lucky with the shadow refuge camping they’d only manage the 1 hit, backstab (not a full mug+cnd chain) which does very little damage by itself compared to other kill moves with the mug and cnd generally averaging more damage.
All the while all the other big single skill bursts hit far harder and can have the same situation by hiding in a corner somewhere that you won’t see them immediately or such rather than burning a utility and hoping you wander past.
I hear you. What I think you’re essentially saying is that a completely r1 noob thief player who is willing to waste his time can get a free 17k hit (BS + Steal) against even the most experienced player on the planet no matter how sharp his/her eyes are and who is constantly on the lookout.
The fight is basically over if that happens.
IMHO a person must always be able to avoid damage if they’re good and their reflexes are fast. This mechanic essentially allows thousands of damage against anyone no matter how skilled they are and no matter how quick their reaction time is.
In short, no matter how good a player is, they can never say "I"m so good that this can never happen to me".
Thats just it a really experienced player isn’t going to take 17k damage from backstab and mug, so it comes down to a a completely noob thief can waste his time and rely purely on luck to maybe kill another complete noob running around without and defense.
Just like anyone else can drop a burst out of no where if they get lucky as well.
The only time this would become and issue is if a thief could run around permanently stealthed with no downsides AND if backstab actually did the ridiculous damage your stating without a lot of set up and sacrifice.
Thats just it a really experienced player isn’t going to take 17k damage from backstab and mug, so it comes down to a a completely noob thief can waste his time and rely purely on luck to maybe kill another complete noob running around without and defense.
Just like anyone else can drop a burst out of no where if they get lucky as well.
The only time this would become and issue is if a thief could run around permanently stealthed with no downsides AND if backstab actually did the ridiculous damage your stating without a lot of set up and sacrifice.
How would an experienced player mitigate damage with a shadow refuged thief waiting for someone to come by? The BS + steal is instant. I mean literally milliseconds. I was referring to something like in this screenshot.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/44947/Backstab.png
Even full GC experienced players should be able to reduce damage with skillful play. A combo like this out of nowhere removes any chance of counterplay if a completely noob thief is willing to waste his time sitting around griefing people.
Just no, the thief is already debatably nerfing himself and his team by sitting in the middle of no where doing something that burns a utility and potentially already leaves them vulnerable.
If the GC dies to that then lucky thief else its a thief that is essentially loosing the game for the team. And what if the only person to go past isn’t a glass cannon? the initial burst is going to be weaker than normal so the thief is already behind where someone not trying to gank newbie GC’s would be and that thief is most likely a dead thief and still not accomplishing much for the team. (the short period that such a thief would survive against a competent player might buy their team enough time to cap something, maybe)
If the GC didn’t want to instantly die to a burst out of no where they wouldn’t run glass cannon, its why I just jumped into sPvP on my level 20 warrior bunged zerker gear on and was sat in a corner 1 shotting people as they came past with kill shot.
(edited by Dasorine.1964)
Just no, the thief is already debatably nerfing himself and his team by sitting in the middle of no where doing something that burns a utility and potentially already leaves them vulnerable.
If the GC dies to that then lucky thief else its a thief that is essentially loosing the game for the team.
If the GC didn’t want to instantly die to a burst out of no where they wouldn’t run glass cannon, its why I just jumped into sPvP on my level 20 warrior bunged zerker gear on and was sat in a corner 1 shotting people as they came past with kill shot.
Perhaps you’re saying that no experienced player should ever run a GC? But even a GC can mitigate damage with skillful play. The more skillful you are, the less raw defence you need.
But this combo allows a completely noob player to essentially steal a huge amount of HP from even the most skilled player on the planet with no chance of counterplay. He may be wasting his and his team’s time but the fact remains that he can still kill an experienced player with no cost to himself.