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Posted by: Mortifera.6138

Mortifera.6138

How many years has D/P been the most competitive weapon set now? S/D was the most fun I ever had with Thief, but that didn’t last very long. Options, please.

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Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

Not sure it is the most competitive so much as the one that people have played the most.

Staff was/is a strong contender. D/D (condi) is good. D/D (power) is decent but needs to be played differently from D/P. P/P (power) can be strong in the right settings. P/D is strong as well.

Most competitive can have more to do with what the best players are using rather than what is objectively the best. Top players are too invested in their builds to change to unfamiliar playstyles just because the balance slightly shifted after all.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

D/P’s kit is just very diverse, initiative-efficient, and in general way better at a lot of things that are essential in the core strategy of playing the thief versus the other sets.

Staff was/(is?) good but as a skirmish set at best. It’s pretty easily shut down by good players who know how to counter it (and running what’s in the meta).

Power D/D and P/P are binary kits that have limited skill diversity to approach different scenarios. D/D condi is decent but mostly so from condition builds themselves being way out of whack right now in most formats. It’s similarly not as good at fulfilling the role of what the thief is designed to do and works as skirmisher set like staff. P/P is hard-countered very easily with projectile hate and suffers from being over-dependent on a few abilities or traits. If countered, just like power D/D is by blocks and mobile adversaries, it’s countered very harshly.

P/D is somewhere in the middle but again suffers from a lack of kit identity within the confines of sPvP and in WvW is generally just a dueling/1v1 kit, boosted artificially in efficacy from condition effectiveness as a stat/gear options.

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Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

I’d argue that if you try to play the “role for thief” (which is based on the assumption you are running D/P) then you are always going to find that other sets won’t measure up.

It’s like saying about D/D – “but I can’t headshot to get pulmonary impact strikes!” Different sets play differently and perform related but different roles.

I disagree about “kit identity” whatever that means. P/D is a kiting set designed for single target ranged damage. It is good at supporting team kills and focuses on ranged stealth gameplay. Hardly lacking an identity in my mind.

And sure, the weapon won’t work in a WvW Zerg but neither will D/P let you run in the front lines either. Shortbow remains our tag support weapon if we aren’t picking off single players on the edges of the fight.

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Agreed with saerni. P/d is an excellent kit for small team support in WvW if you wish to trait for such. My own build that uses traps can wreak havoc on enemy groups with an ability to share venoms and stealth move into an enemy group to drop disabling traps. Added to this it can focus on enemies that are boon sharing with the rest of the team and strip those boons away. The ability to stack Immobs for the rest of your group is also a potent skill. It can be used to help a teamate escape or lock down an enemy that tries to retreat for your group to finish off. Added to that p/d is also an excellent source for vuln stacking on an enemy which again helps everyone.

When I compare what p/d offers a group to d/p , P/D wins hands down. D/p is pretty well all about damage. Its group support is minimal. Given p/d also works very well in 1v1 and can work as a roamer or in a group fight and be effective in either, I see it as very diverse and well rounded.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: JonnyForgotten.4276

JonnyForgotten.4276

On the upside, I think they are moving in the right direction trying to make other sets more viable without nerfing the kitten out of the most common builds people use. The shortbow #4 changes, for example, are by no means gamechanging, but it does add a nice additional option to work with.

Now if they would just do some tweaks for sword to make it flow better. . .

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

You both need to re-read my post; I said P/D only suffered from kit identity issues within the confines of sPvP.

It’s a strong skirmish kit and always has been, but it ultimately fails to do what the thief is currently as a profession designed to do (per ANet’s own depictions of mobility and ganking) based on sPvP).

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Posted by: saerni.2584

saerni.2584

I used P/D in sPvP in both ranked seasons exclusively. I was ranked gold in both seasons and reached top 10% in season 6. I could have gone higher but my initial placement required more grinding to get up in the rankings, and I don’t have the time to grind that much.

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Posted by: Raiden The Beast.3016

Raiden The Beast.3016

MAKE S/D GREAT AGAIN!

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Posted by: Elxdark.9702

Elxdark.9702

Staff is a good option and in particular acro/staff still remains stronger imo, it is just people don’t have a clue how to use only few thieves can.

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Posted by: kash.9213

kash.9213

The Conquest D/P build on metabattle is just an all around good build, even in big fights in WvW if you shift some stats around for more vitality and pace yourself with initiative, you’ll be alright. Out of pure laziness when I need to switch to staff I just switch from PI to EA and Dash to Bound. It doesn’t quite match up to the sustaining movement of Acro but it’s passable as a zerg rider if you stagger your evade sources, not sure how that would translate to spvp for you though. I don’t even bother changing from shortbow to pistol off hand anymore, Blinding Powder has to be clutch though.

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

How i see it, s/d probably would be too good right now if it wasnt d/p countering it. s/d has a lot of area combat mobility and control , defensive evade and boon strip. in wvw i am far more afraid of a skilled s/d thief then a d/p thief because a d/p is easy to read and easy to shut down. s/d thief has all of the freedom now but it needs to be kept in check with d/p. a d/p thief will beat s/d due to the fact that it can keep up with the mobility of s/d.

i dont think there should be any changes to s/d at this point, the only thing that stops it is d/p and thats ok imo.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

The problem with S/x, especially S/D is its lack of stealth and favoring towards other initiative-heavy skills makes its roams/engages pretty predictable in terms of where it’s heading. Bound Daredevil can make S/P work but it requires considerable resources to do so.

MH sword is fairly potent in WvW although the lack of chase potential since the IR bugfix does inhibit the weapon’s more widespread success. D/P counters more things, particularly other thieves, and has excellent matchup consistency. While S/x can make some builds and players immediately need to run for the hills in fear when in good hands, its success isn’t as widespread or as easily-achieved with D/P.

Honestly, I’d like to see OOC stealth access be limited to Blinding Powder and SR exclusively with some cooldown reductions on those skills to make them have more utility, and more generalized buffs to the profession to keep it useful, but this would require a lot of reworks and tweaking, so ANet isn’t going to do that.

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Posted by: bluri.2653

bluri.2653

even ifu remove dp sd would be absolute d o g p o op in spvp anyways. id rather play condi dd over sd cus u wouldnt do anything, u already hit like a wet noodle before and now after air/fire is gone i bet u cant even kill beasts on forest

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

oh that is bull crap. d/p rains supreme only in spvp because of map awareness and the ability to go from point a to be in no time at all, but nearly any thief build can trick a team if the build has stealth involved… even a 3 second stealth from blinding powder.
in wvw though the fights differ a lot because there is no +1 on a point, nor is there a race ageistned capping.

the only time an s/x thief become predictable is in a 1v1 situation like all thieves are. you can see them and only them, thieves only shine when a surprise attack happens and in wvw i can port from 3k range away and still able to deal a finishing burst and port back out as a stealthless thief.

your last point ruins core thief witch is not to blame here at all. blinding powder is perftly fine as it is, shadow refuge has been left behind and needs a complete remake because as of the game age, and the amount of reveals going around no 1 is going to take sr wven if it was on a 30 sec cd.

edit, this post was aimed at dx

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

even ifu remove dp sd would be absolute d o g p o op in spvp anyways. id rather play condi dd over sd cus u wouldnt do anything, u already hit like a wet noodle before and now after air/fire is gone i bet u cant even kill beasts on forest

Definitely one of the big disparities between sPvP and WvW is S/x damage. S/x performs quite well in WvW in deft hands; my LS usually crits over 10k for example, which being an unblockable boon rip is very potent.

In sPvP it definitely suffers from a slower/lesser degree of burst on-engage which negatively impacts +1 potential, and again will pretty much either provide the boon theft and unblockable hit on LS to create a down if the enemy is lowered, or will likely have limited effect. It’s a little more consistent than D/D power, but not by much, and D/D power is already pretty terrible in general, especially for +1’s in respects to its poor engage speed and lack of OOC stealth.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

your last point ruins core thief witch is not to blame here at all. blinding powder is perftly fine as it is, shadow refuge has been left behind and needs a complete remake because as of the game age, and the amount of reveals going around no 1 is going to take sr wven if it was on a 30 sec cd.

edit, this post was aimed at dx

No, it only affects D/P on core and x/P on bound Daredevil. OOC stealth when it comes to weapon skills is only achievable given an OH pistol. You also seem to neglect to consider that I said this would also require reworks and tweaking to make work. Such sloppy changes would be a bad idea, and also why I said that because the work would be expansive to properly fix, ANet wouldn’t do it to begin with.

But even just running with why the adjustments themselves would be okay on the conceptual level:

Cut the cooldowns of both utilities in half, maybe even changing SR to two pulses and down to 20s cd. Both can be utilized differently OOC. SR on a lower cooldown would see a lot more use in sPvP from allowing a thief to pretty consistently move from point to point in stealth without needing to burn initiative or dodges leaping Black Powder if looking at the current state of the thief, and cutting out the innate stealth and normalizing D/P and the rest of the kits to have some better in-fight potential could bolster its +1 potency across multiple weapons or even profession-wide in the case of D/P. Then the trade becomes more fair for a utility for surprise +1’s and in turn the profession gets better at fighting not needing to depend on a preset selection of utilities or traits which frees up a slot. Win-win for every set if this is done correctly.

Thief has been held back in terms of generic buffs mostly because of D/P’s self-sufficiency. D/P’s dominance in core is also largely due to the ineffectiveness of everything else because D/P benefits from almost every possible buff as well, keeping it ahead. Changing the way stealth is accessed out of combat in general across all professions would free open a lot more weapons without just strictly nerfing D/P itself or the thief, while enabling numeric adjustments and some concept changes elsewhere which are not reasonable at the moment due to interactions with D/P.

(edited by DeceiverX.8361)

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Posted by: Arlowslol.1974

Arlowslol.1974

your last point ruins core thief witch is not to blame here at all. blinding powder is perftly fine as it is, shadow refuge has been left behind and needs a complete remake because as of the game age, and the amount of reveals going around no 1 is going to take sr wven if it was on a 30 sec cd.

edit, this post was aimed at dx

No, it only affects D/P on core and x/P on bound Daredevil. OOC stealth when it comes to weapon skills is only achievable given an OH pistol. You also seem to neglect to consider that I said this would also require reworks and tweaking to make work. Such sloppy changes would be a bad idea, and also why I said that because the work would be expansive to properly fix, ANet wouldn’t do it to begin with.

But even just running with why the adjustments themselves would be okay on the conceptual level:

Cut the cooldowns of both utilities in half, maybe even changing SR to two pulses and down to 20s cd. Both can be utilized differently OOC. SR on a lower cooldown would see a lot more use in sPvP from allowing a thief to pretty consistently move from point to point in stealth without needing to burn initiative or dodges leaping Black Powder if looking at the current state of the thief, and cutting out the innate stealth and normalizing D/P and the rest of the kits to have some better in-fight potential could bolster its +1 potency across multiple weapons or even profession-wide in the case of D/P. Then the trade becomes more fair for a utility for surprise +1’s and in turn the profession gets better at fighting not needing to depend on a preset selection of utilities or traits which frees up a slot. Win-win for every set if this is done correctly.

Thief has been held back in terms of generic buffs mostly because of D/P’s self-sufficiency. D/P’s dominance in core is also largely due to the ineffectiveness of everything else because D/P benefits from almost every possible buff as well, keeping it ahead. Changing the way stealth is accessed out of combat in general across all professions would free open a lot more weapons without just strictly nerfing D/P itself or the thief, while enabling numeric adjustments and some concept changes elsewhere which are not reasonable at the moment due to interactions with D/P.

the problem of sd is not the stealth, is damage, is FS/LS

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Posted by: Arlowslol.1974

Arlowslol.1974

How i see it, s/d probably would be too good right now if it wasnt d/p countering it. s/d has a lot of area combat mobility and control , defensive evade and boon strip. in wvw i am far more afraid of a skilled s/d thief then a d/p thief because a d/p is easy to read and easy to shut down. s/d thief has all of the freedom now but it needs to be kept in check with d/p. a d/p thief will beat s/d due to the fact that it can keep up with the mobility of s/d.

i dont think there should be any changes to s/d at this point, the only thing that stops it is d/p and thats ok imo.

go back to your wvw boy, just RUN AWAY .you cant do anything except RUN AWAY if you use a sd thief, git gud boy

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

D/P is basically utility weapon set with some damage hence why it was used the most in pvp – which is all about team play. D/P is not the best set for everything. Staff for example was/is great if you want to play more selfish and more dueling/damage oriented build. Same applied to s/d – it was a selfish dueling kit. Those 2 gave thief way better chance to win 1v1 encounters at costs of team support and versatility. There is reason why we see more different weapon sets used in wvw compared to pvp – in wvw everyone fights only for themselves (at least thieves).

Just a side note, OP, have you ever thought that some people actually enjoy playing d/p?

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

S/D was strong because it could precast FS before engage, wait on initiative, and engage with LS, and at the time (and still now if it were left unchanged) hard-counter a majority of the meta bunkers due to its boon hate and unblockable high-coefficient hit. Acro was mostly what set the kit as the potent dueling kit, but nerfs here and to baseline vigor efficacy pushed it defenses while the hit-dependency on FS made it incapable of delivering burst, dealing much damage, or providing high-impact engages.

(edited by DeceiverX.8361)

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Posted by: CreedOfGod.9764

CreedOfGod.9764

I hope they nerf /p to the ground honestly. Getting tired of head shot spam ez mode since it makes using other weapon sets so much more difficult to use against it. I’d be happy if they changed stealth attacks based of both hands instead of just main.

~Ghost Ren~
Stay Low. Move Fast. Kill First. Die Last.

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Posted by: Ario.8964

Ario.8964

although this isn’t meta I’ve been having very high success with this setup for s/d as it’s also my favorite set to play.
S/d (courage and revocation runes) with sb (cleansing and energy/compounding)
mara ammy
strength runes
Da (mid mid bot)
Trick (Bot top mid)
DD (top mid mid)
utilities are channeled vig, shadowstep, bandit’s, and sig of agility
elite is basi venom or dd elite

Upsides:
Has very high condi cleanse ability through dodging and utilities +sword 2 cleanse
Has high mobility cause thief
Has high damage due to might from sigils and runes
Extreme boon hate (Destroys boon reliant classes especially in ganks)
Can 1v1 more builds and hold a point better when it is needed

Downsides:
Still countered by guard
Little stealth access
Little cc access
Lack of blinds
Less aggressive in play than d/p (can also be a benefit but it all depends on situation)

[Teef] Dragonbrand Thief and Engi main www.twitch.tv/ariodoesgaming and Ario Does Gaming on Youtube!

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Posted by: Bigpapasmurf.5623

Bigpapasmurf.5623

I hope they nerf /p to the ground honestly. Getting tired of head shot spam ez mode since it makes using other weapon sets so much more difficult to use against it. I’d be happy if they changed stealth attacks based of both hands instead of just main.

Why? Lots of initiative waste when you let a HS spamming teef do its thing when you are not even casting anything ;P

Free kill in my books.

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Posted by: Alatar.7364

Alatar.7364

I hope they nerf /p to the ground honestly. Getting tired of head shot spam ez mode since it makes using other weapon sets so much more difficult to use against it. I’d be happy if they changed stealth attacks based of both hands instead of just main.

Why? Lots of initiative waste when you let a HS spamming teef do its thing when you are not even casting anything ;P

Free kill in my books.

Not sure if I can agree with that, HS was bugged for a long time now, cause quite often it interrupts the target when the target is not casting anything. I keep getting interrupted when I am just running. I thought I am just being salty, so I asked other Thief to try it out with me, and my HS were interrupting him when he was only walking. Happened in almost 25% of cases.

~I Aear cân ven na mar

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Posted by: Alatar.7364

Alatar.7364

I hope they nerf /p to the ground honestly. Getting tired of head shot spam ez mode since it makes using other weapon sets so much more difficult to use against it. I’d be happy if they changed stealth attacks based of both hands instead of just main.

Why? Lots of initiative waste when you let a HS spamming teef do its thing when you are not even casting anything ;P

Free kill in my books.

Not sure if I can agree with that, HS was bugged for a long time now, cause quite often it interrupts the target when the target is not casting anything. I keep getting interrupted when I am just running. I thought I am just being salty, so I asked other Thief to try it out with me, and my HS were interrupting him when he was only walking. Happened in almost 25% of cases.

~I Aear cân ven na mar

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I hope they nerf /p to the ground honestly. Getting tired of head shot spam ez mode since it makes using other weapon sets so much more difficult to use against it. I’d be happy if they changed stealth attacks based of both hands instead of just main.

Why? Lots of initiative waste when you let a HS spamming teef do its thing when you are not even casting anything ;P

Free kill in my books.

Not sure if I can agree with that, HS was bugged for a long time now, cause quite often it interrupts the target when the target is not casting anything. I keep getting interrupted when I am just running. I thought I am just being salty, so I asked other Thief to try it out with me, and my HS were interrupting him when he was only walking. Happened in almost 25% of cases.

Stow weapon, you sure AA wasn’t on?

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Posted by: Alatar.7364

Alatar.7364

I hope they nerf /p to the ground honestly. Getting tired of head shot spam ez mode since it makes using other weapon sets so much more difficult to use against it. I’d be happy if they changed stealth attacks based of both hands instead of just main.

Why? Lots of initiative waste when you let a HS spamming teef do its thing when you are not even casting anything ;P

Free kill in my books.

Not sure if I can agree with that, HS was bugged for a long time now, cause quite often it interrupts the target when the target is not casting anything. I keep getting interrupted when I am just running. I thought I am just being salty, so I asked other Thief to try it out with me, and my HS were interrupting him when he was only walking. Happened in almost 25% of cases.

Stow weapon, you sure AA wasn’t on?

It wasn’t on, we were just hitting running target, no fighting. Although I didn’t know that it can interrupt even AA, that is quite … disappointing

~I Aear cân ven na mar

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I hope they nerf /p to the ground honestly. Getting tired of head shot spam ez mode since it makes using other weapon sets so much more difficult to use against it. I’d be happy if they changed stealth attacks based of both hands instead of just main.

Why? Lots of initiative waste when you let a HS spamming teef do its thing when you are not even casting anything ;P

Free kill in my books.

Not sure if I can agree with that, HS was bugged for a long time now, cause quite often it interrupts the target when the target is not casting anything. I keep getting interrupted when I am just running. I thought I am just being salty, so I asked other Thief to try it out with me, and my HS were interrupting him when he was only walking. Happened in almost 25% of cases.

Stow weapon, you sure AA wasn’t on?

It wasn’t on, we were just hitting running target, no fighting. Although I didn’t know that it can interrupt even AA, that is quite … disappointing

I haven’t experienced it. Most AA have cast time, it is same as with any spells – anything with cast time can be interrupted.

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Head shotting aa, especially thief dagger aa is a gamble, sometimes it hits other times it dosnt, what what does seem to happen a lot though is counter stealing a thief who bursts you from steal, quite often I would his signet of agilty and steal, most of the time it does enough dmg for them to back off or vice versa

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Head shotting aa, especially thief dagger aa is a gamble, sometimes it hits other times it dosnt, what what does seem to happen a lot though is counter stealing a thief who bursts you from steal, quite often I would his signet of agilty and steal, most of the time it does enough dmg for them to back off or vice versa

LOL that is why i open with ss.

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