Guild Wars 2

randomfightfan.4091:

Azraeel.1238:

Seriously? To be able to do 10k+ BS you need to go full Glass Cannon, and to be able to regenerate while in stealth you need 30 points in Shadow Arts for Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Regenerate health while in stealth). You can’t get both. Now I won’t say learn to play, but at least learn what thieves are capable of and what they aren’t capable of before nagging.

Remember that you’re talking to an average MMO player on a forum. If they hate on something, they will lie, cheat, and steal to “prove” their point. Can thief hit 10k backstab? yes. Can thief regen 500 per second in stealth? yes. Can they do both at the same time? no. Does that matter to the haters? no. Their argument could be against a 30-30-30-30-30 thief and still there’d be a legion of haters come in to support the hate.

I’m not saying anything against the guy you’re responding to personally, just the thief-hate community in general.

Yeah, this is just sad, I mean if I even think about whining about some class or a skill, which i rarely do, I would try to learn the class as much as I can. Sometimes I even roll that class just to know their weaknesses.

Teamkiller.4315:

Blankverse.4927:

Teamkiller.4315:

Brave thieves, who know how to play, will probably say: groups of 4-5 non-upleveled palyers who let one single thief kill them are noobs, kittens and desperately need some lessons how to play.

I would agree…

Not a thief main, even, only play thief for spvp. Guardian main. Ranger secondary. If you get killed by one thief as a group of 4 to 5 players, you’re not very good players…putting it really politely.

I won’t argue with that. But the fact remains: thieves are able to do it, i see it everyday, ever seen a necro or engineer doing it?

Not a necro, but an engineer, yes. Mesmers can also do it, as well as guardians and warriors. Eles can too, i know someone personally who can. Can’t speak for rangers but BM is an extremely strong dueling build. Granted, these must all be against fairly incompetent players on average. There are youtube videos i can link you to.

Mesmer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br5Il-d3Ox8
Warrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHgkx2w4LrY
Guardian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgYhGde9Qmc
Ele
http://www.youtube.com/user/daphoenix555?feature=watch

As a horrible – really absolutely horrible – thief i still can get dozens of kills everyday without any problems. Something is definitely wrong.

They excel at roaming.

Take the roaming away too pls so i can finally give up on this profession. And to the op, if u complain about healing too much on a profession that lasts too little in a fight you are just selfish. I bet you`re upset that thieves are marginally decent in wvw and you want them to be as useless as in spvp. You have the right to ask but don`t expect people to cheer you for it. Back when thieves went GC 30/30/0/0/10 ppl were like “omg op burst”. Now it`s “omg too much stealth”. Pick one! PS: i still prefer GC over SA so i really don`t care if stealth gets the nerf bat.

Best burst? No, S/D Ele does more burst dmg than dagger mainhand. And thats not even when built glass cannon.

Scepter ele? HAHAHAHH, well maybe if your target is scarecrow XDD

Master of Timespace.2548:

Best burst? No, S/D Ele does more burst dmg than dagger mainhand. And thats not even when built glass cannon.

Scepter ele? HAHAHAHH, well maybe if your target is scarecrow XDD

Scepter has insane burst so I wouldn’t discount it.
Dragon’s tooth does close to backstab damage.
Fire grab does more than backstab.
Phoenix does about half a backstab.
Fire Ring does about half a backstab.

Atherakhia.4086:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Best burst? No, S/D Ele does more burst dmg than dagger mainhand. And thats not even when built glass cannon.

Scepter ele? HAHAHAHH, well maybe if your target is scarecrow XDD

Scepter has insane burst so I wouldn’t discount it.
Dragon’s tooth does close to backstab damage.
Fire grab does more than backstab.
Phoenix does about half a backstab.
Fire Ring does about half a backstab.

And they are all AOE, which can hit multiple targets.

With 2 second cool-downs…

Atherakhia.4086:

Ralathar.7236:

People that say thieves are useless in the current meta of WvW out themselves as terrible WvW players. Thieves are likely the single most influential class in WvW because thieves and thieves alone can shut down supply in a map with little to no risk.

Maybe 12 thieves is enough to completely control supply in an entire map. You pair up into teams of 2-3 and each take a camp. A good thief can easily solo a camp but 2 makes it a lot faster with more room for error and better chances for escape if things go south.

You then go out of the camp and keep an eye on it from a good position, kill groups attempting to retake comprised of up to 4-6 members. Maybe even upgrade camps. If more than you can handle you let them take and kill any yaks leaving and retake.

Without supply the enemy cannot attack effectively. Without supply all towers and keeps will fall eventually. 100 supply pillaged occasionally from camps is not enough and quick thinking thieves can zero supply right before enemies arrive with an upgrade, then LOL away.

No other class can pull this off near as well as thief. Not even close. But this style of player is generally boring so most people just end up killing randoms is high reward little risk situations all day long.

That’s not true at all. Rangers and Mesmers have absolutely no trouble taking camps single handedly. They also aren’t useless in any aspect of WvW or sPvP as they make excellent roamers and zergers.

Scouting also isn’t something the thief class excells in alone as Rangers are just as quick running around the map thanks to the insanely short cooldown on swoop. They also escape exceptionally well when attacked. And they have a real bunker spec.

Thieves have better in combat mobility, are better able to handle CC, have stealth, have better single target spike damage, and are more escapeable. The ranger is also highly vulnerable to being zerged down while the thief is not.

Ranger is a good and capable class, but when it comes to roaming and supply control thief is safer and more effective. Having a pair just maximizes their ability to kill dolyaks and camps quickly, minimizing the chance of them being ambushed during the only time they are the least bit vulnerable.

There is no need to be super bunker if you don’t take damage and don’t get caught. Likewise needing to run to survive is also interfering with your job and a non-thief will get chased quite a long way by your average players even if you escape. A thief can set up an quick and easy stealth “give em the slip” moment.

Though honestly thieves DO have bunker builds. They just don’t use them because stealth is so good atm in WvW they literally have no need for them.

@Ralathar.7236 since you seem to know so much about thieves, why don’t you roll a bunker build and try it out? They don’t use it because there is no such thing as an effective bunker thief. You won’t last that long without stealth. Heck if you look at the Shadow Arts tree line, it relies heavily on stealth and not on buffs. Another “bunker” build relies on healing power and Signet of Malice. Both of them are nowhere close to other bunker builds, you won’t do much damage, and your survivability isn’t all that great. This is the reason people tend to go with damage, to at least be good with one thing. I personally go with 0/30/30/10/0, it is a nice balance between damage and defense, but I never have 10k BS unless I have something like 15+ might stacks from party.

Ralathar.7236:

Atherakhia.4086:

Ralathar.7236:

People that say thieves are useless in the current meta of WvW out themselves as terrible WvW players. Thieves are likely the single most influential class in WvW because thieves and thieves alone can shut down supply in a map with little to no risk.

Maybe 12 thieves is enough to completely control supply in an entire map. You pair up into teams of 2-3 and each take a camp. A good thief can easily solo a camp but 2 makes it a lot faster with more room for error and better chances for escape if things go south.

You then go out of the camp and keep an eye on it from a good position, kill groups attempting to retake comprised of up to 4-6 members. Maybe even upgrade camps. If more than you can handle you let them take and kill any yaks leaving and retake.

Without supply the enemy cannot attack effectively. Without supply all towers and keeps will fall eventually. 100 supply pillaged occasionally from camps is not enough and quick thinking thieves can zero supply right before enemies arrive with an upgrade, then LOL away.

No other class can pull this off near as well as thief. Not even close. But this style of player is generally boring so most people just end up killing randoms is high reward little risk situations all day long.

That’s not true at all. Rangers and Mesmers have absolutely no trouble taking camps single handedly. They also aren’t useless in any aspect of WvW or sPvP as they make excellent roamers and zergers.

Scouting also isn’t something the thief class excells in alone as Rangers are just as quick running around the map thanks to the insanely short cooldown on swoop. They also escape exceptionally well when attacked. And they have a real bunker spec.

Thieves have better in combat mobility, are better able to handle CC, have stealth, have better single target spike damage, and are more escapeable. The ranger is also highly vulnerable to being zerged down while the thief is not.

Ranger is a good and capable class, but when it comes to roaming and supply control thief is safer and more effective. Having a pair just maximizes their ability to kill dolyaks and camps quickly, minimizing the chance of them being ambushed during the only time they are the least bit vulnerable.

There is no need to be super bunker if you don’t take damage and don’t get caught. Likewise needing to run to survive is also interfering with your job and a non-thief will get chased quite a long way by your average players even if you escape. A thief can set up an quick and easy stealth “give em the slip” moment.

Though honestly thieves DO have bunker builds. They just don’t use them because stealth is so good atm in WvW they literally have no need for them.

Sorry but bunker thieves are useless. Where as Ele’s and Guardians get an ample supply of boons, thieves get none. A thief, which has already bad stats, no boons, medium armor, and requires a good amount of prec, crit damage, and power to do auto attack damage simply cannot compete. And if you mention evades, well every evade used is less time in your enemies face being a threat. Going bunker makes thieves into a more useless Warrior. It doesn’t effectively use stealth which is basically a class mechanic and lacks damage unlike other classes. Thief damage with a bunker build is horrid and here’s why. Thief damage comes from back-stabs coming OUT of stealth. Going bunker and using less stealth only reduces thief damage even more. Other classes simply will heal up faster than damage dealt while thieves are brought down almost as quickly.

Basically the survival builds for thief SHOULD rely on stealth because our traits and class make stealth out to be useful and more powerful. You’ve completely missed the point of the class.

Please inform me on how Bunker thieves are actually useful in any facet of this game in comparison to other bunker builds from other classes. I’d really like to know.

As for escaping fights, mesmer can reset fights just as easily and have more stunbreakers to do so. Its also much easier to 1vX and 1v1 on a mesmer if you’re capable. And as for scouting and dolyak control. Yes a pair of thieves are good at taking them, but they are just as easily protected by other classes from thieves, people just don’t like to follow dolyaks around. If this is the biggest complaint for thieves in wvw roaming I don’t see a problem.

Actually Shadow Protector is bugged and doesn’t stack correctly with itself. Wish that was fixed. :P

im not here to show off my off-hand salami but i have to say it…
(This isnt saying i will win these situations each time but i have done it)
With my thief i can 3 v 1 max in wvw
With my ranger i can 5 v 1 max in wvw (BM power pet build)
With my warr i can 1 v 1 max (usually get burnt down due to condi)
With my mes i can 5 v 1 (who couldnt tho… 3x clones + Boom = ermahgerd)
‘’ ’’ ele i can gtfo of a 10 v 1 without dying
‘’ ’’ necro i can 3 v 1

So imo thief is about normal, its a different play style that people still cant grasp which is why they die to thieves, doesnt make it OP – just gotta switch from the way you would fight a warrior to the way you fight a thief at a moments notice

Wonderer.1790:

Sorry but bunker thieves are useless. Where as Ele’s and Guardians get an ample supply of boons, thieves get none. A thief, which has already bad stats, no boons, medium armor, and requires a good amount of prec, crit damage, and power to do auto attack damage simply cannot compete. And if you mention evades, well every evade used is less time in your enemies face being a threat. Going bunker makes thieves into a more useless Warrior. It doesn’t effectively use stealth which is basically a class mechanic and lacks damage unlike other classes. Thief damage with a bunker build is horrid and here’s why. Thief damage comes from back-stabs coming OUT of stealth. Going bunker and using less stealth only reduces thief damage even more. Other classes simply will heal up faster than damage dealt while thieves are brought down almost as quickly.

Basically the survival builds for thief SHOULD rely on stealth because our traits and class make stealth out to be useful and more powerful. You’ve completely missed the point of the class.

Please inform me on how Bunker thieves are actually useful in any facet of this game in comparison to other bunker builds from other classes. I’d really like to know.

As for escaping fights, mesmer can reset fights just as easily and have more stunbreakers to do so. Its also much easier to 1vX and 1v1 on a mesmer if you’re capable. And as for scouting and dolyak control. Yes a pair of thieves are good at taking them, but they are just as easily protected by other classes from thieves, people just don’t like to follow dolyaks around. If this is the biggest complaint for thieves in wvw roaming I don’t see a problem.

I personally don’t think perma fury, vigor, and might with bursts of higher might, regen, and other boons while boon stripping, poisoning, dazing, blinding, applying movement crippling abilities, stealth spiking, and etc is all that useless.

Maybe if you are viewing bunker through the eyes of damage, perhaps yes. If you are looking at bunker through the eyes of being able to decoy/soak damage, provide support, area stealth via only weapon-skills, and deal a decent amount of damage while at it however, thieves do well.

Some people just don’t appreciate anything that isn’t damage damage damage.

heres the simple fix the Stealth mechanic needs it should be made so that it blurrs thiefs a bit they remains somewhat visible but Untargetable by direct target skills .

The game slayer, I see your concern here. But in the thief classes defense we know that the longer we stealth the more time we give your own heals and utilities to recharge. So our bursts have to be fast and consistent.

Rezzet.3614:

heres the simple fix the Stealth mechanic needs it should be made so that it blurrs thiefs a bit they remains somewhat visible but Untargetable by direct target skills .

Except that makes stealth useless in close quarters. GS Warriors could just mow thieves down if they try to go toe to toe.

I would like to know where you got 500 from.

You added another 200 HP than what it really is. It’s ~400 if you spec with FULL healing gear, which very few thieves do because healing gear on a thief isn’t nearly worth it as other professions.

There are a few bunker condition thieves out there, who get their damage through bleeds, either with p/d cloaking and then attacking, or with d/d and spamming death blossom. Both of these still rely on stealth for survivability, though they do stay up longer than other thief builds. The hard thing is they have to work twice as hard for kills, since they can essentially take twice the hits of typical thieves…so instead of 3 hits to death, it takes 6. So imagine a glass thief takes 5 seconds to win a fight or stealth/retreat. During those 4 seconds, the thief may have to react to 3 attacks and keep from dying….it’s doable. Take the same scenario and replace with bunker condition spec, this may take closer to 20 seconds to win, and during that time the thief has to avoid 12 attacks. The thief has to outplay the opponent for much longer to win, and if they fail, they still can’t take many hits, except they’re being forced to face many more hits. This is why thieves go with glass builds…even when they try to go condition tank, they usually realize that they’re still glass, just more of a hard-glass pistol than a glass cannon. In addition, as a thief you quickly realize that a thief condition/tank build does not compare to engies, necros, rangers or mesmers in terms of condition damage or survivability.

randomfightfan.4091:

Azraeel.1238:

Seriously? To be able to do 10k+ BS you need to go full Glass Cannon, and to be able to regenerate while in stealth you need 30 points in Shadow Arts for Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Regenerate health while in stealth). You can’t get both. Now I won’t say learn to play, but at least learn what thieves are capable of and what they aren’t capable of before nagging.

Remember that you’re talking to an average MMO player on a forum. If they hate on something, they will lie, cheat, and steal to “prove” their point. Can thief hit 10k backstab? yes. Can thief regen 500 per second in stealth? yes. Can they do both at the same time? no. Does that matter to the haters? no. Their argument could be against a 30-30-30-30-30 thief and still there’d be a legion of haters come in to support the hate.

I’m not saying anything against the guy you’re responding to personally, just the thief-hate community in general.

This applies equally to thieves complaining about survivability and the NEED for stealth amongst other things. All sides do this nonsense.

Ralathar.7236:

randomfightfan.4091:

Azraeel.1238:

Seriously? To be able to do 10k+ BS you need to go full Glass Cannon, and to be able to regenerate while in stealth you need 30 points in Shadow Arts for Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Regenerate health while in stealth). You can’t get both. Now I won’t say learn to play, but at least learn what thieves are capable of and what they aren’t capable of before nagging.

Remember that you’re talking to an average MMO player on a forum. If they hate on something, they will lie, cheat, and steal to “prove” their point. Can thief hit 10k backstab? yes. Can thief regen 500 per second in stealth? yes. Can they do both at the same time? no. Does that matter to the haters? no. Their argument could be against a 30-30-30-30-30 thief and still there’d be a legion of haters come in to support the hate.

I’m not saying anything against the guy you’re responding to personally, just the thief-hate community in general.

This applies equally to thieves complaining about survivability and the NEED for stealth amongst other things. All sides do this nonsense.

I’ve never once complained about survivability. I’m not sure about anyone else but the only thing I’ve noticed on the subject is people describing how stealth is intertwined with thief survivability. If they nerf stealth, they’d need to buff survivability or else thief would be at a significant disadvantage.

I’d just like to elaborate. Stealth does nothing to protect the thief if they’re getting hit. What it does is makes it harder for the thief to get hit. I’m pretty sure most people have no idea about that little factor when they complain about stealth. A LOT of people believe thief in stealth = immortal god mode.

bobross.5034:

There are a few bunker condition thieves out there, who get their damage through bleeds, either with p/d cloaking and then attacking, or with d/d and spamming death blossom. Both of these still rely on stealth for survivability, though they do stay up longer than other thief builds. The hard thing is they have to work twice as hard for kills, since they can essentially take twice the hits of typical thieves…so instead of 3 hits to death, it takes 6. So imagine a glass thief takes 5 seconds to win a fight or stealth/retreat. During those 4 seconds, the thief may have to react to 3 attacks and keep from dying….it’s doable. Take the same scenario and replace with bunker condition spec, this may take closer to 20 seconds to win, and during that time the thief has to avoid 12 attacks. The thief has to outplay the opponent for much longer to win, and if they fail, they still can’t take many hits, except they’re being forced to face many more hits. This is why thieves go with glass builds…even when they try to go condition tank, they usually realize that they’re still glass, just more of a hard-glass pistol than a glass cannon. In addition, as a thief you quickly realize that a thief condition/tank build does not compare to engies, necros, rangers or mesmers in terms of condition damage or survivability.

P/D thieves don’t really work harder than glass thieves for kills at all.
Not to insult P/D thieves, but P/D doesn’t work harder because well it cannot. There isn’t enough meaningful choices on the kit. The length of time it takes to kill doesn’t mean anything for its skill cap when it unfortunately has to rely on 2 buttons because it can rarely find situations that justify anything more.
————————————

I don’t think there is anything wrong with our Stealth traits other than how much room they take up on our trait line.
Anet stated stealth was a short duration defense. I think most of stealth problems come from player experience. I think problems that don’t fall under that is when stealth deviates that ideology of being short, or get reapplied quick enough to be practically the same as extending the duration. That’s when it gets into cheeseball territory.

FKNrocked.7421:

im not here to show off my off-hand salami but i have to say it…
(This isnt saying i will win these situations each time but i have done it)
With my thief i can 3 v 1 max in wvw
With my ranger i can 5 v 1 max in wvw (BM power pet build)
With my warr i can 1 v 1 max (usually get burnt down due to condi)
With my mes i can 5 v 1 (who couldnt tho… 3x clones + Boom = ermahgerd)
‘’ ’’ ele i can gtfo of a 10 v 1 without dying
‘’ ’’ necro i can 3 v 1

So imo thief is about normal, its a different play style that people still cant grasp which is why they die to thieves, doesnt make it OP – just gotta switch from the way you would fight a warrior to the way you fight a thief at a moments notice

just to clarify, since you mention your ele can gtfo from 10 enemies- how many enemies can you gtfo from with your thief? I’ve slithered away from a zerg of about 30, after wasting their time trying to down me for a solid 2 minutes- sounds like not much, but I’ve seen a keep fall in less to a coordinated zerg.

Atherakhia.4086:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Best burst? No, S/D Ele does more burst dmg than dagger mainhand. And thats not even when built glass cannon.

Scepter ele? HAHAHAHH, well maybe if your target is scarecrow XDD

Scepter has insane burst so I wouldn’t discount it.
Dragon’s tooth does close to backstab damage.
Fire grab does more than backstab.
Phoenix does about half a backstab.
Fire Ring does about half a backstab.

Well this is strange! They are that good yet I can’t remember a SINGLE time I lost to a scepter ele. xDD
Oh well tbh there are some semi decent condition ones, but yeah, direct damage one.